Unknown  0:00  
Recording live from FYI, p studios, east and west, transmitted across the internet. This is Episode 55 of registry matters. Happy Saturday to you Larry. Thank you, Andy. And Happy Saturday to you. Is this final week before Christmas? Yeah, it is. So we've recorded out of schedule last week. And I mean, maybe we were on target last week. But then the week before it's been I'm all twisted out of whack. Did you? Oh, I already taught we already talked about the crazy winter thing. Nevermind I'm still having like delusions from that drive. Yes, we did. We spent an hour talking about what

Unknown  0:37  
oh, when you send people say I'm the one that exaggerates

Unknown  0:41  
well. You are

Unknown  0:43  
so So speaking of North Carolina Do you have anything to report about the the North North Carolina with that that they didn't appeal? I do I have the the time for a normal appeal for the Meredith versus Stein case that we talk about.

Unknown  1:00  
About has expired. And that means to appeal at this point where would have to be what they what is referred to as an out of time appeal. And those do happen they the prosecution or the state apparatus and even the other side of what we do it occasionally we we apply for leave to do an out of time appeal but as far as the time for appeal has expired and there was no appeal file, which means that the Meredith versus Stein decision

Unknown  1:30  
by the federal judge in North Carolina saying that they have to provide Mr. Meredith a process to translate his out of state of fence it is final.

Unknown  1:39  
And so just to backtrack a little bit,

Unknown  1:43  
it means that I predicted that they would appeal and so far I was wrong. Oh, and do we get to mark this on the calendar as being the first time

Unknown  1:53  
I think it's the third Yes, you could do that.

Unknown  1:57  
I'm not trying to rub your nose in it. I mean, it's great that they're not appealing.

Unknown  2:00  
And but, you know, I want to let's keep some sort of fair score and keep things honest about hey, if you made a prediction and it was was wrong than a call it out as being wrong well that's a normal thing that they do because they're not going to want to provide a due process and they are good vehemently against due process. They say the conviction is to due process. I would not say work completely out of the woods yet, because out of time, appeals do happen. And they they get great difference because they claimed that they were overworked and had a tremendously heavy caseload and that it fell through the cracks and they file for leave. But at this point, they did not file with him the time and that was the case where the guy transferred from out of state and he tried to go to the office more than once, and they said, No, you don't have to register but then they caught up with him and they said that P. What this ultimately means for our people is that you could have something that would land you on the registry for life in certain states. And this would give you some way to have your trends.

Unknown  3:00  
be something lower. So maybe you don't have to register for life? Well, it means if you have an alpha state offense and you've located if you locate from your state of conviction to another state, and that state happens to have language that says something along the lines of equivalent offenses reasonable, substantially similar or something that says that they have to do a translation if they just take the position that everybody who moves here that has a registration obligation has to register here them it's not as helpful but for those states that have language such as North Carolina had has that it has to be substantially simpler than that they have to have a process to determine that similarity and they did not do that in the case of various gotcha

Unknown  3:49  
okay well this and that's that's good for us good for our people. So I guess like in a state like Florida, where another state may have tier ones and twos not have to register

Unknown  4:00  
or register for a short period of time. But in a state like Florida, you just register forever if you got convicted of urinating in public, right?

Unknown  4:09  
Well, there again, since I haven't prepared the Florida I haven't looked at their what triggers a registration obligation if they have language that says these Florida fences are they're reasonably equivalence from other jurisdictions, then it would be the same thing in Florida, you would want it was determined that the offense was equivalent, you'd still have to register in Florida, but in states where the the period of registration varies, it's very it's extremely important that they translated correctly because it could mean a longer term on the registry, Florida, though, I think it would make with whether you're on the registry or not, if they have the language that requires that they be equivalent or similar or substantially similar. All states don't have that language. Some states just say if you have an obligation to read treaty where you have obligation register here, right? But it's those states where the language allows for a translation of what

Unknown  5:00  
It's the equivalent of reasonably equivalent to one of their fences all right well let's chalk that up to at least some level of victory for us and that being the hotbed of where cases are coming to light in North Carolina which is kind of an interesting I don't know I find it interesting that it pretty much everything is coming out of there they're jerks in general like with everybody on the registry having can't use the internet you know that we had to go fight that were other places people have at least some degree of freedom to use the internet so there's that case comes out of there there's just a whole bunch of stuff that comes out of their and their their their thumb and they're putting their thumbs and people's eyes that are on the registry but they are they have they have they have a lot of

Unknown  5:41  
restrictions that are really really significant and happened have legal professionals including Paul doubling our souls or parcels, regular attorneys and then Lang guarding who who's out with the North Carolina Public Defender's Office they've been they've been breaking change.

Unknown  6:01  
And this this case here was Paul duplex, but we're going to emulate it and my state, we're gonna we're going to use the logic and reasoning to make the same point here that we need to do process to determine if it's if it's equivalent to one of ours.

Unknown  6:16  
And just to fill in one little piece of that puzzle. Somebody has to have standing to bring a challenge, right?

Unknown  6:23  
That would be correct. If if you have an out of state offense and you're living in another state that that has that language, then you would have the requisite standing to say that you should be afforded subdue process.

Unknown  6:35  
And what constitutes do processes is is somewhat subjective, but in the case of North Carolina, the party stipulate they didn't have any due process. It was up to the sheriff. He went to one Sheriff and I told him he didn't have to register. He went to what he moved for whatever reasons they went checked again, with a new sheriff, which that that defies all imagination.

Unknown  6:55  
I told him I told him No, he didn't. He didn't have to register and then

Unknown  7:00  
Some years later they contacted them and said, Actually, you do. And that's what triggered the litigation is that that they had reverse themselves now had he'd never approached the White County Sheriff in Raleigh,

Unknown  7:11  
who knows we may not be here because he would not have possibly ever been told to register. It was it was him checking in and say, I know I don't have to register. I know the share for this county told me eight years ago, I don't have to register but I just want to make sure now I made your county Do I have to be like, say that defies all logic. I would consider one determination from a sheriff to be sufficient, right? Apparently he will like a one the other

Unknown  7:36  
the other piece of that that seems kind of interesting to me is he would have moved and he became like a known entity in one county and then he moved to a new county that would have made him further anonymous and then not check in and the other Sheriff may have just been like oh well they don't live there anymore and move on about their day and never ever questioned it again. Well, the share for don't have to register I can't imagine they would have checked it on

Unknown  8:00  
Make him because he should have to register. Why would they be checking in all truth?

Unknown  8:04  
So it's like, I don't understand. But I have this all the time when people do things I don't I have the same issue when you go to Nevada and let's say you have to register 48 hours that I asked people will own the 49th hour is there going to be a sudden release of radiate radiation from your body will know what Larry, you don't understand what's the law but you can't even find anybody who process you within 48 hours of being in in Nevada. So you're going to spend your entire 48 hours trying to get processed and not do your business. If you're there for that you need to be there for 51 hours. I'm not advising you to disregard the law just tell you that on the 48th hour, the first minute after that there's not going to be a sudden burst of radiation

Unknown  8:51  
the Geiger counters are not going to zero in on you if Yeah, we would have to go to a movie called minority report which I'm pretty sure you haven't seen where they catch you up.

Unknown  9:00  
Crime before you've committed it, and they come in and rescue an hour or day before the crime, they have these little like, see, or things, whatever, not to get into the whole thing. But I've considered this like you're you're barreling down the interstate, you're going 100 miles an hour down the interstate, and you do it for 10 seconds between two exits, and then you stop doing it, or you're guilty of doing something wrong. But if nobody caught you, there are no consequences for it necessarily. And this is kind of the same thing if you just if you stay out of their way. And again, not suggesting anybody does this, but like, chill out if nobody knows that you're doing if you're if you're there, if no one knows that you're doing something wrong, but no one's going to know you're doing anything wrong and let it go. And don't stress over it so well. Yeah, well, well,

Unknown  9:47  
and the kid gets very complicated. People will make you write emails and say, I don't understand I actually I do understand. Yeah, they're states where it says if you're going to be out of your home territory for certain number of days, you have to let them know well there

Unknown  10:00  
Again, unless they have a continual surveillance on you that watches you 24 seven, they would not know that you were gone for three days, five days, seven days, or whatever the case is. They would not know that. But people feel feel obligated if they're going to be gone. If it's if it's a five day window that says, if you're gonna be out of state for five more days, you let us know. Well, I'm not telling you don't let them know. But I'm

Unknown  10:27  
struggling to figure out how they would know. Yeah, if you didn't tell them unless they came. Yeah, because you could have gone to work. You could have gone out to a friend's house. You could have just spent the night at your mom's house. You weren't calling for more than that time you just happen to not be there when they checked. Okay. But even if you're not there with the check unless the statute says you have to call them

Unknown  10:48  
there again you're not required to be Hall but no one showed me a statute says you must be home right for for residency check. So they check it you're not there and there's no required

Unknown  11:00  
That you call I personally would not call unless the statute required me to call right because you still reside there like your your mail still goes there you utilities go there you still live there you just aren't there for X number of days or hours yes but they intimidate people that tell them if you don't call us and we're also be both will get award well that would be nice you can get the board I'm not saying that somebody can't get award yeah but I'm telling you that it would be difficult to convict a person for for you don't have the proof that they have blue yeah if you get award saying that they haven't been seeing that's not the same thing is proving that they don't live there. They they live someplace else right.

Unknown  11:42  
And people forget that to some degree even though the victims advocates would have there been no burden of proof it still is the government's job to prove if they're going to ledge that you have established a new residence are not notified that they have to prove that right Right. Right. Right. Right.

Unknown  12:00  
Hey, well, let's, let's cover some articles. This first one comes from above the law. And this is a female attorney who is defending a guy accused of rape. And you know, you hear rape. And right off the bat, you're like, oh, that guy's a monster for doing that. his side of the story is that he like he's at a club, 22 years old meet some chick. And they decide that they're going to go to the bathroom and do some cocaine and they go in there, and then they have consensual sex. She claims rape and hat. So the premise of the story though, is that the attorneys like how am I supposed to defend this guy, I I'm there, he deserves equal representation. But how am I sensitive to how I'm going to present the case of the he doesn't turn out to be a monster so that I respect the the, the accuser it's just like she's uh, she's describing that she's in a really, really tough spot. And one of the quotes that I wanted to pull out of the article is of the remaining jurors who were not excused when I asked.

Unknown  13:00  
The question How many of you believe that just because a woman claimed she was raped, she's telling the truth, almost every hand went up. reconcile that with the presumption of innocence and I think that's the key of the articles that right there shouldn't we have a presumption of innocence

Unknown  13:16  
yes and each one of those prospective jurors should have been dismissed for calls and the judge should have supported them. If they say that a mere accusation is enough, then they have already decided to case before any of the evidence as hard and they should have been dropped. And the attorney should have made the motion to excuse those jurors for cause so that she didn't have to use any of her peremptory challenges. And the perimeter challenges are the ones where you don't need a reason you can just simply look at them I don't like look at the way you look I don't need a reason I don't want your on the jury but you only get so many peremptory challenges there have been in the rest have to be for calls so there have been some interesting Supreme Court challenges where they're all kinds of ways to excuse somebody for racial reasons, but they come up with that they didn't like

Unknown  14:00  
The shirt they were wearing because it was a different sports team that you know they just come up with all kinds of ludicrous ways to say oh I don't really don't want black people in the jury

Unknown  14:08  
becomes more difficult for the for the prosecution because if you have a minority defendant in a area where there's very few of the minority then have the whole panel that would they be selected from you might not have been to out of 100 and the prosecution can easily use their print for challenges to exclude any minority representation right so I believe the case I believe the case was Bateson that foundation sounds right yeah there's a so there's there's there's a standard on on the prosecution that's slightly hard to not use those challenges just simply to to to make the the jury free of any minority representation there is a podcast called more perfect and they they cover that issue and Season Two if I'm not mistaken.

Unknown  15:00  
And it's a podcast that is just 100% about the Supreme Court probably something that you would actually like. And I cannot remember which one it is which which episode it is. I'm pretty sure it's out of season two because I didn't listen to see someone

Unknown  15:14  
but any who yeah they covered it's Batson vs. vs. Kentucky 1986. Okay. I just, I just searched it. The episode of more perfect. It's really interesting. Listen is called object away. And yeah. So you had it right. It's Batson and that's the case which is like I said it's a really good episode if you want to get a deep dive into how the different sides try and exclude different jury members. But anyway so back to this case about the woman trying to defend this guy in the era of me to it really would be totally like dancing on eggshells. It would be for a particular for a woman attorney right because they would be viewed as selling out I mean, are you talking

Unknown  16:00  
On the other side, but

Unknown  16:03  
my my it's easy for me to say of course since I'm not female, but I job is to be as close as I can and prevent the state from

Unknown  16:12  
proving this beyond reasonable doubt. I am not here to help you get justice. I'm here to make sure that my side gets the best representation possible. This is a dueling contest. We're not trying to get to the truth and people misunderstand that about our system. We are not trying to find out the truth at a trial i mean if the truth comes out that's fine but it's a dual contest between two parties at a referee and I'm going to do everything I can't within the rules to make sure that you don't win

Unknown  16:44  
that that's the bottom line. That's what I do as a defense attorney and and and so I'm going to use every tool within the arsenal within ethics to make sure that you don't prevail. just clarify one thing you just said. a defense attorney.

Unknown  16:57  
I know that you're on the fence.

Unknown  17:00  
You are okay. I just want

Unknown  17:03  
it. So on the defense side, we are going to do everything we can right to make sure that you don't prevail. Our job is not to help the state convict guilty people. Right. Right.

Unknown  17:16  
And somehow that that has been twisted and distorted, that that the defense attorney and the prosecution are somehow supposed to work hand in hand and sing Kumbaya and try to figure out a good outcome that is a possibility if your client is guilty and you're looking for a reasonable outcome so I'm play bar but if there's any doubt if the client says I didn't do it, it's not our job to help you get a conviction Our job is to make damn sure you don't right right right right yeah again it's not about it's not about if somebody's lying if someone did it if they didn't do it it's about who can prove their side it's it's it's a debate well and and and it just in case people forget the key.

Unknown  18:00  
Using party bears the burden right, not the accused. And the burden is a very hard one to remember proceeding. It's beyond a reasonable doubt. And therefore there might be there might be significant evidence, even evidence that were convicted person in a civil proceeding. But it's not enough in a criminal proceeding words. The standard is so high. It is supposed to be hard to put people in cages you state the founding fathers intended but but as we heard lindsey graham say, we have eight times more people incarcerated than most other Western nations. So it seems like we haven't made it hard to put them in cages. We have actually made a presentation system to do it. We have through the process of making everything criminal and making the sentences so long for for criminal conduct. The cages would not be as full if we weren't keeping people in them for so long. We could still have a lot of people go into cages yet but we're putting we're putting people in them for for many times longer than the rest of the world does. The Western world that is Yeah, and but it's supposed to be

Unknown  19:00  
Difficult to put people in a cage if you don't like that then you need to change the constitution uh. Let's get rid of the presumption of innocence so let's get rid of all these these inconvenient things like due process and Confrontation Clause and all that if it's inconvenient to be confronted when you make an accusation trying to put someone in a cage then let's do away with that but in the meantime This is the system we have and we're supposed to have a hard time putting person away that's the way it was designed. It was interesting that is a be interesting to revisit this one and see see how that attorney deals with it. See how various these various cases come about. Because I mean, like, the guy isn't even claiming in this particular case. He's not even claiming like complete innocence. He's just claiming he didn't rape her. And the second was consensual right? And the the, the the accuser says when she left the bathroom, she told her friend I think I was raped. What does that mean?

Unknown  20:00  
I don't want to bad mouth the the accuser I just I'm baffled at like So you went along with it but after the fact you feel squishy about it I what is the guy supposed to do if you feel problematic about it after the fact

Unknown  20:15  
well that's sometimes referred to as buyer's remorse I'll take that short imagine I can imagine that

Unknown  20:23  
when people people's minds were altered and that's what was happening here. That's what the evidence shows right that's our minds for being altered by the drug wells. I I'm not sure yeah, yeah, I mean, that seems like you know, coke kids who pretty fast if you snort it, I guess I'm not really sure if they did that. She did. Okay.

Unknown  20:42  
Well, then, I don't know what that means. Because I've never done any cocaine either. But I'm assuming that it's a mind altering. I can't imagine why you would do it if it didn't alter your mind. Yeah, if you felt the same when you finished it. Why would you spend all the money bust and how does it do things to get something but you feel like exactly the same way when you finish? That would make no sense. So I'm assuming it's a mind altering right.

Unknown  21:00  
Right

Unknown  21:01  
now that would be good but for somebody to call in and explain this all too and so we can put it on next week because I've never touched that stuff I've never smoked marijuana and I've never been I've never been drunk and intoxicated so I don't know all these things actually don't but I'm assuming that at the end of it if you're buying this altered by the by the ingestion of the cocaine did it would be easier to have buyer's remorse afterwards because your bond with clear up at some point I'm assuming yes and i know we sound we sound kind of silly saying this but I'm assuming things that I don't know yep I'm with you

Unknown  21:35  
well how about let's talk about the advocate and State Public Defender warns Louisiana lawmakers of dire scenario if funding is an increased Here we go. We've talked about this before if I'm not mistaken about how little I mean we've talked about an abstract but I think that we've talked about it as specifically in Louisiana, maybe with King that they just have a an atrocious method of funding.

Unknown  22:00  
atrociously small method of funding the the public defender's office and they're going to have is this where they had like

Unknown  22:10  
I just seem to remember some numbers that we talked about where it was like one attorney and 500 cases and you're like how are you supposed to get any justice I just I just remember something along those lines but there's a lawsuit filed by the southern poverty law center that is is pushing the the the Louisiana public defenders system that they need more money or us these people don't get like forget having like top notch defense How about any defense

Unknown  22:36  
it's it's it's sad because this is this is chronic across the country we just picked on certain states it's it's chronic at by state I'm sure it's chronic and George I know we talked about Wisconsin where they were paying $40 an hour was what it was yeah was it was a that's a rate that goes back decades and the crushing caseload so we could

Unknown  23:00  
We could dramatically increase public defender resources or we could dramatically curtail the input. See the problem that the public basis on this is that up the tripod of the criminal justice system, there's the prosecution, there's the defense. And there's the court itself,

Unknown  23:19  
of those three of those three legs of that still only one can control only one cannot control at all their caseload and that's the public defender.

Unknown  23:28  
Okay, if you're indigent and you qualify, you get shoved down to the public defender. The prosecutor gets to choose which cases they file right they get to choose which cases they plead out, they get to the judge gets to decide if they want to let the prosecution have continuous after continuous or they want to hold on to the rules and they want to start dismissing cases for failure to prosecute speedy trial. The poor defense has very little that they can do to alter the Castel trajectory.

Unknown  24:00  
there at the mercy of the other two two components and so if the public doesn't want to pay for defense and I know clearly they don't it's not popular anywhere in the country when you when you go on to campaigns

Unknown  24:14  
Baker your stump speeches you say ledge to you that if I get elected that I'm going to make him number one priority to put more money in Ninja defense so that the people that the cops arrest will have robust representation Something tells me that the votes are going to taper off dramatically yeah and a feeling so that's

Unknown  24:32  
that's just not going to happen but but it's kind of like the it some point the courts are going to have to intervene and I don't know where the tipping point is because we've tried it must eight here we've tried. The public defender has said they file a motion saying that they can't provide adequate representation of the judges are saying well even though your case loads loads are dramatically higher than the recommended standards. As far as I can say about courtroom y'all doing pretty good job. Yeah. So I think you're providing just five records.

Unknown  25:00  
today. So I you know, I think that that you could up the ante. And I think I said this on the podcast earlier in our in our episodes that what you could do when the judge calls the case to trial when the judge says parties are you ready? The state would say Yes, Your Honor, the defense would say, Well, actually, Your Honor, we are not ready. Right. Right. Right.

Unknown  25:17  
You talked about a short because because my office is so seriously understaffed. I have not been able and I just want to say, for the record, I have not been able to visit with my client. I've not had one face to face meeting I've only got through the first ream of discovery. It were no way ready to go to trial. I haven't done any bit witness interviews, and I have done no outside investigation on this case. So your honor, to answer your question, we are not ready to go right

Unknown  25:46  
now. You could do that. Now. I don't know what the ramifications would be. I don't know I made a court wouldn't be happy I can tell you that I know before we get the core wouldn't be happy and the court would call a sidebar say what the hell do you mean you're not ready to go. This case has better

Unknown  26:00  
A year and a half. Why are we ready and but what kind of pressures external pressures would be applied? That would be one way The next way with the person gets convicted when you weren't ready when they filed their appeal that you can stimulate his attorney, I did not provide and you could give an affidavit saying, Well, I didn't do this, I didn't do this. And I didn't do this. I didn't do this.

Unknown  26:21  
And that might force the issue.

Unknown  26:24  
But I don't see a lot of takers willing to do those things. You're going to send a whole shit ton of people up the river and you're then going to like fall down on your sword, so to speak, and you're gonna have a lot of you're gonna have a lot of people then clouding up the court system with some sort of retrial, because you had ineffective counsel,

Unknown  26:42  
I would say that but but wouldn't that force the good taxpaying citizens to decide if you can't afford to fund interested defense it is a constitutional requirement, then perhaps, maybe you ought to stop bringing everybody to court for everything but everybody's guilty of something so we have to prosecute it.

Unknown  27:00  
Everybody well then you got to pony up if you don't if you can't prioritize what's important for prosecution then guess you get used to pay in taxes and we need to people are running for office to say that you know I don't madam ladies and gentlemen I don't like here safe it's a county level a system like like Georgia House you're writing for decamp county commission which is just outside Atlanta you say I don't like having to I'd much rather be provided you senior citizen center and I'd like to be put more money in our school system I'd like to have more money and after school programs I'd like to have these potholes repaired I'd like to have more people so the animal controls on duty 24 hours a day I'd like to do all these things but we're charging everybody was crimes and that's our constitutional obligation so we've got to put more and more money and energy defense unless we figure out how to convert people from prison and fed from from the justice system so it's kind of up to us to be creative. But this is what we have to do. I mean at some point you might have to start saying that and it would probably go over pretty well to cab company because there are a lot more they're a lot more progressive over there but it still wouldn't be a slam dunk.

Unknown  28:00  
Um, how about. So if we're if we have us a city that's increasing in population, and they're going to start resizing roads and figure out where school should go, I'm assuming that nothing along those lines happens for the court system, shouldn't there be some sort of ratio quota something or another to to balance that number between public defenders and the population size or the county site? Something, you know, something along those lines to balance it out.

Unknown  28:30  
Courts tend to be the allocation for court resources is to be a reactive thing that schools do as well. I mean, they very seldom build schools for for population expectations 15 years out, right, usually because they have overcrowding and they say the ideal population for this school is an elementary school should have more than 520 students that were at 790 and if they say that's across our entire school districts, that's the problem but the same thing with the courts they tend to be populations is that

Unknown  29:00  
is they not only do they increase they shift right corner you have you've had you've had a migration to the last 2030 years from urban from rural to urban right and so you have smaller towns that have become smaller and they they sometimes they fewer judicial resources source because the population they want said is no longer there and you allocating resources for the judiciary is is the most difficult thing that the public defenders the most difficult thing to law enforcement has an easier time at it because they're there in uniform regularly telling you that they're the ones keeping you safe and and you hear from them most prominently so they get their share of the pie if you look at any budget or that be your your city local law enforcement is the big big if you look at public safety. If you look at any county or city budget, the big bulk of it goes to public safety but I mean it does it doesn't sound to me like it would be hard to bring in another turning.

Unknown  30:00  
Because we have I don't know another hundred thousand people in the area to be on the public defense roster it just it seems like there would be a ratio of a number here's how many x people equals one public defender that's got to be there is that but so then they just they just short sell it or they underfunded in general well they under funded I mean we know the ratios of the ideal Bar Association but I mean there's there's there's recommended guidelines for felony level defense misdemeanor level defense and there's there's how many cases we we we know those details but if if if you're in since 2008 for example my state has basically had frozen spending we're spending 2008 levels all right we've we reach six or 6000 $6

Unknown  30:48  
billion for a budget which is really puny but worst of all poor state we reached we reach $6 billion in 2006 or seven fiscal year the economy tanked in 2008 and we backed it off to five points.

Unknown  31:00  
4 billion because the state has to balance this budget we've we've been slowest to recover we've had the highest unemployment rate in the nation and we've been spinning around $6,000,000,006.2 billion for the last 10 years so within that 10 years of inflation there's been all sorts of containment of spending people who are Medicaid waiver waiting list they've waited longer for for services because they've only got so many slots positions have been frozen so so there's been hiring freezes so the public defender baby ideally it at this level full time equivalent but they haven't had the funding because big because of the budgetary constraints so so the funding has just not been there and and for the conservatives who will think that the government should always drink that's fine but we are we have shrunk are governed by by attrition for the last of practically decade now this year because of the resurgence of energy which were an energy producing state we're going to have a billion dollars

Unknown  32:00  
new revenue so we're anticipating that recurring revenues are gonna jumped around seven $7.2 billion well that sounds like a lot of body except for if you factor in inflation factor for last 10 years we would be over $7 billion at way and you you you factor in inflation as well as population growth and and and and needs needs to change depending on the demographics of your population so a state that has more young people is going to have more need for K through 12 education state that has a lot more older population is going to have a lot more need for services to deal with seniors and there's there's everything is not stack course

Unknown  32:39  
we are we're spending at 2008 levels here and now there's some new money on the horizon and you ought to see the feeding frenzy of course the public defenders department

Unknown  32:48  
has got their hand out say we've been underfunded but so does everybody on every single thing that government does it says that this this the school districts are saying we've been start that process

Unknown  33:00  
should say we've been starved judiciary has been say we've been start the health department that their secondary ID the start of start I mean it gets audit audit that there's well over a billion dollars worth of question for for a budget increases everybody's not gonna get what you're asking yeah and I suspect that the PDS offices pretty low down there on the totem pole

Unknown  33:19  
well we got it we got strong support in our legislature for giving more money and even some of us on the bipartisan side even the conservatives realize that you that these costumes requirement but but you've got all these other things that government does which it large go unnoticed don't anytime you notice the things is when it's not done yeah of course that's the only time you go to say you take everything for granted that happens and people don't understand is like government affects your life every single day I got ever but is impacted your life to try to have that conversation with people. Yeah you may hate politics but if your kid goes to school, how the school is where your roads are, how much traffic there's that's all politics everything that you do is

Unknown  34:00  
Some politician has put their stamp on it pro or pro or again well did you did you eat Did you eat at a restaurant today? Andy? Actually yes I did today. Okay, well, government had impact impacted the food inspection for the food that got to owning how it was processed. They impacted that the the restaurant is under an inspection regime to keep you safe. And we've learned that that's the necessary part because if we pulled out the USDA inspectors and we didn't expect any food at ports of entry in a slaughter houses, the restaurants are inspected to make sure that they that they follow proper sanitation and so government have impacted you today. I completely understand what are you

Unknown  34:39  
I'm sure you drove on a street today that government affected that I'm sure you breathe air today. The Clean Air Act has impacted that I'm sure that the nation security was impacted by government. It wasn't by some miracle, divine intervention that the nation is somewhat secure. I mean, go on and on the government impacts your life. If you got a kid that's in school they are but it's impacting that.

Unknown  35:01  
You know the the police or service of government I mean the fire department is the service of government animal controls the service of government the pothole repair the sanitation the water delivery. I mean we could spend days and days talking about what government does but people take it for granted because the things happen it's only one that they don't happen that that all of a sudden they notice that there's something wrong and then they're bad at government

Unknown  35:25  
yeah I get that too All right well then the article that we're going to cover next is from NPR and the Farm Bill compromise reached with snap changes out industrial hemp in what is hemp I've heard this term my entire life and I like I like knows that you can make like t shirts or rope out of it or something like that

Unknown  35:45  
yeah I'm gonna be over my head on this one as well but I know that that we've got listeners out there that can help us thank the but

Unknown  35:54  
the

Unknown  35:57  
the the 806

Unknown  36:00  
$67 billion

Unknown  36:03  
farm bill is apparently going to go kind of pass the bill bus pass both the House and Senate but it appears to have now clear the hurdles of all the things that are blocking it and the big thing for our folks where people were worried about the food stamp changes and I'm not clear exactly what has emerged on the food stamps

Unknown  36:23  
right and But does this change so so our listener there in Nebraska he was like it was a big deal about how this bill affects I guess felons and so forth to to do you know how that changes

Unknown  36:38  
I'm not clear I know there's a stricter work requirement being imposed

Unknown  36:42  
What's it really installer right now is to is to put more work requirements drug testing on people who receive any type of public assistance and and so I think there's a stricter work requirement for example the during the recession the the work required

Unknown  37:00  
But for people to receive food stamps was waived. The states were given a waiver by the federal government that you you can love to work requirement because there were very few jobs for people to get well then as the economy is improved, they'll states have been imposing the work requirement again, but they did just impose what existed previously like the previous work requirement was for those 55 and under now they've raised the age and my state to the world we managed to stop it but they raise age 50 and then they reduce the age of having a minor child at home that you would be exempt from from the work requirement and then drug testing is could become very popular in the south

Unknown  37:41  
sites like Alabama North Carolina they're trying to make it almost impossible to get the these benefits but I think that the biggest change has to work requirement but I'm not clear on what they did on the felons if they enlarge the let me let me just I'll share this with you towards the about midway through it it says because

Unknown  38:00  
The stricter work requirements are gone from the final bill. House Democrats are largely poised to vote for its passage. So what that means will probably be something similar of what the work requirements we already have, which I think federally like at 55, you have to have a disability

Unknown  38:15  
if you're under 55 to be exempt from job training or work requirement if you're going to receive snap or what we used to call food stamps. So anybody can get an exemption for being being having a disability or being over 55 or having minor children. And like I say they wanted to reduce the age of a minor child

Unknown  38:34  
to 16 from

Unknown  38:37  
I think it was 18 if you had a binder at home, but I think an 1817 year olds okay to be self supervised, but how much longer do you take the the H word work, yet? They some supervision? I don't know. Not a pair of but at some point. Teenage teenagers need supervision. Certainly. Certainly. Certainly. Well, you're closer to that you've got one like 11 years old. How will you guys be comfortable leaving him without supervision.

Unknown  39:00  
I think legally he is allowed to be home alone for a brief period of time. He can self supervised but just a short period of time. And then I think maybe 12 he could be on his own. I don't want to say indefinitely but for large stretches of time, so to speak. I mean, you know, you could run to the grocery store now be gone for, let's say, an hour, half hour, something like that. Without a worry. Even though in this modern era, everyone's gonna be like, Oh, you left your kid home alone for 30 minutes without any supervision. Did he die? No, he didn't die Good grief. Man What do you think you left the house and all the air got sucked out Jesus we've really they're all about a sexual sexual predator. Yes because they were like watching every house and they saw the parents leave and they were like kids are home alone here and hey go watch that movie if you want to see how kids can be devious and fight back against the robbers and whatnot if we have become as the the the free range kids blog covers. We have some seriously like get into kind of people.

Unknown  40:00  
In our societies that are that are putting their nose into your business like Do you remember when you were a kid Larry that your that your mom would take it to the grocery store. She's like, not just wait here little area I'm going to be in there for five minutes she left the car running she left the AC on you probably had a hand crank on the front of your car. So there was no way or AC but she just ran in, grabbed some stuff came back out and everything was fine. I can't do that now. Well, I was gonna I was going to tell you that just just to get the story perspective. Now when I was a kid,

Unknown  40:32  
the

Unknown  40:34  
cars I wrote it or to the grocery store did not have air conditioning.

Unknown  40:40  
And in those days, I mean air conditioning was available to wealthy people, but we weren't in that class. So I wrote in cars that were there were made in the 50s and 60s didn't have air conditioning. And then when I went into a foster care home, they had an old pickup truck that had a cab for two years.

Unknown  41:00  
Put a third person they had those where they call those solids console seats okay you can put a third person but but the kids will we will be put at the back of the pickup and sometimes it was on the cold side and you'd be writing for a long ways on what they would like you up for doing that today that a child to be absolutely but we wrote we wrote in the back of pickup truck way back when it was hot and what it was cold

Unknown  41:24  
but yes we did wait your point was we waited and the card yes that's exactly what we did and no one thought anything of it there were there was no thought of a predator working you were told to behave yourself you'd wait in the hot car and they did their shopping and they came back out and that was just the way it was you didn't think anything of it right right.

Unknown  41:44  
All right well then from the Marshall project here's a guy that spent a whole lot of time in prison and ultimately got released his case was overturned and he was a pretty prominent guy in the community prior to

Unknown  42:00  
But the article goes over how the the media on the outside really miss portrays the facts you know effectively saying you know hey such and such was accused of and they really paint you as being this like demon person upon your your your entrance into the criminal justice system and this guy was trying time and time and time and time to gain any traction of telling his story and they just continually shut it down

Unknown  42:29  
well good uh. And you know the guy says I was apathetic to criminal justice coverage prior to being convicted of second degree murder in 1990 and sentenced to life in prison without parole

Unknown  42:40  
and that has got to be I don't know some really high number of our population is has that mindset I don't know is it 80% of the people just like I don't know I've never had to deal with the criminal justice system so I would prefer that I don't which is probably isn't a bad idea but that really is an answer

Unknown  43:00  
Pathetic to the people that do end up on it and possibly are there for the wrong reasons oh well it's it's I say this

Unknown  43:10  
regularly you have no reason to know anything to the contrary you get an indoctrination when you're growing up in this country about our system what all the process protections we have and everybody gets a I guess a fine attorney and you're presumed innocent and it's difficult for you as a law abiding person growing up hearing that for four decades to imagine that our system could be as valuable as it is therefore it's difficult for you to comprehend because you always thought that the cops were overworked short staffed and that the lawyers on the defense side made all the money and played two games of work the system to advantage of the hoodlums and so it's hard to be sympathetic to that so when they when they put a person in handcuffs and walk about a courtroom after

Unknown  44:00  
They've been either pled guilty or or

Unknown  44:03  
or types been convicted by jury. When's the last time let's say let's name some names. Let's say this name rod the goal I pitch ring a bell to you. Yes I do new revenue politically of itch, mayor of Chicago. gov. gov. gov. gov villain okay right okay well when's the last time you've heard his name a roughly when he got convicted? Yes. They marched him way to present that he was a high profile governor who was gonna

Unknown  44:31  
he was taking bids to replace senator bob was resignations okay so so but but for the last eight years you've never heard his name okay then let's look at it Pennsylvania was Sandusky What's the last time you've heard Sandusky same come up actually you know because of the podcast I do hear it come up fairly regularly but now you know of course the regular is a regular news media What did you hurt What did you hurt oh well you know when if you heard now we

Unknown  45:00  
Good here Bill Cosby's name yesterday because his appeal his request for an appeal Bond was denied.

Unknown  45:06  
He got he got a brief board yesterday but point is that once these people are carted off they're forgotten

Unknown  45:15  
and so what happened to this young man was exactly what happens to everybody else yeah you just forgot about them authored and it bothered him that he was forgotten but he forgot that he forgot everybody what they were carted off prior to him being carted off that's true

Unknown  45:33  
hey hey forgot that he forgot everybody and what we try to do is to try to make sure that people are not forgotten and we talk about the people who don't have a voice we we we do and the organizations that advocate along the lines of docile and others we advocate for those who are who are forgot he was forgotten and nobody cared.

Unknown  46:00  
would want a year? Yeah, I would say that I had a similar point of view though until I ended up there

Unknown  46:05  
absolutely. I think we all did so then what is the what is the channel of i mean i don't i don't think public education here here's how you manage your checkbook also be considered of people going to prison I don't think that that is necessarily going to gain any traction of some sort of public awareness campaign

Unknown  46:23  
i don't know i mean he spent 27 years so she's least in 2016 what is submit sense was committed by that liberal do good governor john Bel Edwards in Oklahoma. I'll come

Unknown  46:37  
but but but he he spent 27 years in prison and he was forgotten, but largely really, I mean, the entire world would change in 27 years to

Unknown  46:47  
absolutely forget these little short little decade long sentences. 27 is a long effing time to be locked up.

Unknown  46:55  
I don't I don't know what I don't know what it would take to change American perception I can

Unknown  47:00  
I suppose as more and more people are wrong they were wrongly convicted or released it might hide the awareness but you have the other side constantly screaming that there's too many people getting away into the system's broken and the people getting off of I don't know that that that even the we've had a deluge of people we've had how many people they were on death row that that they found out physically could not have committed the crime yeah sure that that the scientific evidence has shown that that that they could not have done what they were convicted of doing absolutely

Unknown  47:33  
so

Unknown  47:35  
yeah I don't want to say it again but we're we're not really very we're not a compassionate group of people that we Americans I just it really well Julie I know well why don't you leave well okay so we will set up FTP studios middle of Atlantic Ocean and I'll be on a sailboat and I'll use a satellite phone on will record the podcast from there and I'll just have my own sovereign territory called Andy's boat it if you could if you can find a

Unknown  48:00  
country it's better than this one that you should just leave and quick, right? I'm not really sure that Yeah, I know you're being tongue in cheek. I just don't know that that really exists. I still I do still think the US is probably the best country on the planet

Unknown  48:15  
in some regard. Yeah. No. Yeah, I think I think taken as a whole, I do. I would just take it as, like, the American system overall, is probably better.

Unknown  48:25  
It's just my I don't know. But again, I have a sample size of one I haven't been there. So I was gonna say in some regards, I think in some regards, we measure up lacking but but if if you look at where people want to go to this is a country where a lot of people want to come

Unknown  48:39  
there are other countries where people want to go as well. But this is a country where people want to come and I think the way it was put to me most frequently when I was doing property management was that that opportunity right there is a lot of opportunity to America and and you're not relegated to the cast that you're more than here

Unknown  48:57  
definitely I am

Unknown  49:00  
The Law and Order candidate

Unknown  49:07  
All right. Well from the washington post is the GOP the law and order party. Yeah, not so much. Well, there's a guy named What's his name? This guy is named Epstein. What's his first name? I don't even know the first name. Jeffrey Epstein. Like is Jeffrey Jeffrey Epstein is a multi multi billionaire and he was allegedly molesting and sexually abusing dozens of underage girls. Some still embraces to not really sure how that's relevant because you can be wearing braces when you're 3115 year old victims that she was recruited to be a sex slave out of the Mara Largo locker room. Hint, Hint, hint. I wonder where that is. But so here's a guy that is accused of a bazillion different things and he is a heavy heavy heavy donated to demo he was actually a democrat donor and but he hired a few well

Unknown  50:00  
Connected republican lawyers I think yeah so he's obviously at a Florida from our logo and he got one of the most lenient deals for a serial child sex offender in History According to the Miami Herald

Unknown  50:12  
so and in Florida is pretty much Republican controlled all the way through I believe they they're

Unknown  50:19  
they're farmers person what's there what's their department of farming whatever would be called that one has just been flipped to a democrat seat otherwise I think they're read all the way through Oh what is your point well we if if if the Red Team Red is all pro law and order then why was this guy able to kind of sort of by his way out of having 300 years in prison well now you know being on the defense side I'm going to take a slightly different view Yes Take the view that perhaps they didn't have a strong case yeah I know

Unknown  50:56  
perhaps there is one there so perhaps there is

Unknown  51:00  
There's double justice there's a separate standards of justice for for the half and half dot but this Jeffrey Epstein apparently did get a what appears to be a very good deal and the currently the US Secretary of Labor was apparently the prosecutor at the time

Unknown  51:20  
mm hmm Do I have that correct uh. Let me see labor yeah so yeah like Alexander Casa now Trump Secretary labor a position with oversight over in international child labor laws and human trafficking

Unknown  51:34  
was the was the US Attorney mm hmm that apparently struck the deal with with with Epstein so i i don't know i don't know enough about it but of course always take always take the position that if they get a good deal it could just easily be the head of crappy case it could be also that they they but says the undisputed facts in this case proof that rather be forthrightly discharge. It's all vacations newer shells. Sex the government shows

Unknown  52:00  
In our secret deal with the man who had victimized them. That's that's that's what that's what a professor from University of Utah SERPs

Unknown  52:11  
about this deal? Did you see that in the paragraph there? I did. I did. I did. Yeah. Yeah. So

Unknown  52:18  
So it seems like he's a pretty poopy person. And because he has a gazillion dollars and very politically connected,

Unknown  52:27  
that he was able to whittle his way out of having some horrendous amount of time, whereas Joe Schmo is not able to do it and I guess the point of the article is is that the republicans are running around saying that they're the lawn order candidates and and they're all about some lon order and funding big the law enforcement apparatus, as you call it,

Unknown  52:48  
but he got a pretty sweet deal. Well Epstein's attorney was Alan Dershowitz and mostly right listen this podcast probably heard the name he's a very prominent Harvard attorney.

Unknown  53:00  
He said wait we out Lord him as how we got the deal and then could quote says, I guess it depends on how you define loitering right. But doesn't that mean why it doesn't seem fair that you it shouldn't matter your economic status necessarily on how good or bad defense you get, it doesn't seem like there should be that much of a disparity between the two. Well, and if you're willing to pay those taxes, Andy I think we could do that. But But, but how many people are willing to pay the taxes to hire Alan Dershowitz is for everybody, right? I'm just and I know that we're in a capitalistic society and you can buy a shitty mechanic for your car, and you can buy an awesome mechanic for your car and you're going to get the different results but I can't like the five star rating on a $10,000 car is equal to a five star rating on a Lexus.

Unknown  53:53  
Like those two things are sort of equivalent, not that big of a difference but in this case.

Unknown  54:00  
I mean, you are talking about a significant difference in how your future life progresses because of how much money you have

Unknown  54:08  
the

Unknown  54:10  
resources that are attorneys have, it's not additional people just think of the attorney fee itself. And it's also the investigative resources that are available to an attorney to a

Unknown  54:20  
team. We're not living in the 1840s, maybe longer where the there was no friends, like set a crime. It was an eye witnesses, solid

Unknown  54:29  
or circumstantial evidence. We don't live in those days anymore. We live in a very highly highly expensive world where they're experts for everything so our friends except rules today, and and so. So it's not only that you need Dershowitz or someone of his caliber, you need a bankroll to look at the forensics evidence where they went when they do an internet case. I mean, they have tons of forensics data that the computer guru was charged tons of money to analyze.

Unknown  55:00  
For you.

Unknown  55:01  
Absolutely

Unknown  55:03  
it's it's where people that want to be back in the good old days, sorry, we're not going to be back in the 1850s anymore. What you you can't just appoint a lawyer and say, I'll mess Mr. Smith but you kind of take on Andy's case and do the best you can lose it what that's not the that's not the world we're in anymore right

Unknown  55:25  
that the the body of evidence is facing the defense attorney is going to require experts in most cases that there's gonna be some expertise involved at the attorneys got a need to hire out

Unknown  55:37  
and that's that's sorely lacking in our public defense systems and the people who hate taxes are not ready to pony up any more taxes and I've even had that conversation with people on our side. I said, Well, okay, you keep saying that you find it appalling that we don't have the resources are you willing to pay

Unknown  55:58  
more clarity

Unknown  56:00  
We going to find the funding to do what you say you believe what you would want to have done

Unknown  56:06  
and they said what we cut somewhere else and I said well then let's make a list of the cuts and of course you got unlisted cuts you always get a very narrow list of cuts of what people will intercut yeah and what they want to cut won't do what needs to be done you know they'll they'll come up with they'll come up with a list of things that it uses for an A or it's the programs to help the most neediest and vulnerable they're willing to cut

Unknown  56:29  
they're willing to cut food stamps they're willing to cut aid to dependent when they don't call it anymore 10 if but the the program that helps people with was with minor children that are that are struggling they want to cut women infants and children the WIC program they're willing to cut things like that Yep. But all those combined don't

Unknown  56:48  
that's not where the deficit is, you know that's not where the mismatches spending but but you can't find the things to cut and of course will be taught by data to the fans for largely talking about state or local funded the federal state.

Unknown  57:00  
system is fairly well taken care of. I'll give the feds credit for that the Federal Public Defender system is is is way better funded that any state system bubble right,

Unknown  57:12  
then we can come back and cover the next article as soon as I freakin find it here we go. Oh yeah, this is a fun one. We should totally I was thinking about this today if if why is it that we don't let people join the military until they're 18 but they can't drink until they're 21. However, we will turn that all upside down and go Well, hey, you shouldn't have committed an adult crime when you're 15 years old. And we're going to put you in the big house with the big dogs but part of the criminal justice reform bill i don't i'm not i think this isn't the first step act that miners will not be in adult prisons unless it's something like you know, it's a small rural community and you've got to you don't have the resources until you can

Unknown  58:00  
move them along to someplace that would have to be kind of holding facility.

Unknown  58:04  
But why are we so hell bent on locking up 15 year olds and younger? Whatever with the adult people? I wish I had to answer I I find it thankfully, we don't do it in my state. But but it's it's rampant across this country and even in states that you would expect to know better do this. I don't know why. I think when we had the crime wave of the in the 90s there was a lot of overreach to there was a wave of delinquent kids and it even even they were talking about it here. We just didn't go to the quite extreme that other states did. But but it makes us feel good to say if you're old enough to do the time crime you don't have to the time and it's just it's just such a silly argument because that brain is not developed.

Unknown  58:54  
Yes, thank you. Well, the part of the argument that I was making at that point then is then we probably should let them join the military.

Unknown  59:00  
18 because their brain isn't developed well that's a different story for a different day but

Unknown  59:05  
they used to be an exception of the drinking if you were in the military right because but but I think that's been eradicated now but long long ago but but there there's to apply that we do such a double take Costa the prosecutors little handout 2030 years to someone who victimizes a child will turn around and to give a child a horrendous sentence as well. And adult court and yet they say it's all for the kids. You know, we're doing we're we're sending these bad guys away for a long period time for the kids and then they send a kid away for a long period of time and even to an adult jail. I don't I don't get it. I'm thankful that this was going to survive that there's going to be some improvement in the first step back

Unknown  59:47  
hopefully this trickles down through the states I'm true to this results in some some change

Unknown  59:53  
it it's sad to me that we do this in this country and hopefully this is the first step towards eradicate

Unknown  1:00:00  
That practice also our practice of shading when women when they're having a baby of prison you know to be I can't I can't imagine we would do that but we do

Unknown  1:00:10  
right and so just to be clear so this article comes from the Marshall project and the criminal justice reform bill you've never heard of is the title of it and the Senate has quietly passed a juvenile justice legislation that would ban states from holding children and adult jails and it has gone to the President's desk for signature This is not related to the first step act which we don't have any anything in the show notes to cover about it however I think it was just this week that that McConnell decided to put it on the Senate floor for a vote I'd heard that I thought I had dropped in an article but yes this is as you say the bill we haven't heard of it so it is a first step towards major juvenile justice reform because there's a thinkable practices happening I don't know why you would need a law I don't understand why you need a law not to chain a woman up I don't understand.

Unknown  1:01:00  
Why you need a law tell you not to put a 12 year old with a bunch of adults. I don't know why you hate to tell you, you know better than to do that, you know that the 12 year olds irritating the hell out of you. And they might have done something that was quite horrendous but they are still just 12 years old, no matter how you look at it. They're only 12 years old.

Unknown  1:01:22  
And I don't know why you need a law to force you to do what you know internally is the right thing to do. Which is not what these kids that adult and adult courts and adult presence but don't you think it is? I mean, it is the will of the people and we are like, well, that 12 year old did these terrible things then they are acting like an adult and they should just be they should be treated in the most harsh manner possible. They are a corrupt entity and they are never going to be rehabilitated and we should just bury them under the jail and be done with it well well I mean like the mentality of our society seems to be that well they are corrupt into they are they're defective unit absolutely but but

Unknown  1:02:00  
They're only 12 1314

Unknown  1:02:01  
years old when I met up be a defective unit if we if we work on salvaging the unit particular at that age and all the evidence shows to the contrary that that that they're most likely be amenable to rehabilitation very few very few adolescents are not available at all to rehabilitation

Unknown  1:02:22  
because of course of course that's my understanding of it that we welcome somebody come up with expertise that doesn't agree with that but my understanding is the overwhelming number of adolescence change by just age progression and by therapeutic intervention of therapeutic communities that adult prison it's not a therapeutic community

Unknown  1:02:40  
know that is definitely the antithesis of therapeutic community

Unknown  1:02:46  
This is a really crappy environment I mean overall I mean we all people have a weight we do a better job here I frequently quote Cody Posey which name nobody remembers but they do remember the name sam donaldson and Cody pose it was

Unknown  1:03:00  
14 years old when he killed his parents on the Donalds the ranch here in New Mexico and Cody Posey could not be tried in adult court and all he did was killed his family

Unknown  1:03:12  
but but our laws are tough enough that it was not possible to put that child and adult court he was released when he was 21 years old age as far as I know he's not engaged in in criminality since he was related to the Menendez brothers get that was like in the 80s or 90s were the two brothers killed the parents did they get tried as adults remember I remember the case how that case was disposed off but but but but Posey was not able to be put into they tried but they failed because the state right putting a get an adult court here is pretty high particular at that age it gets a laser when I get 17 but at 14 it's it's very difficult to put a 14 year old and a dual core as it should be. Hey, so I'm going to Laura's in the chat with me and she says my judge sent me to a when I was 12 in with a bunch of recovering adults.

Unknown  1:04:00  
Some shift happened. Let me tell you

Unknown  1:04:04  
can you imagine being in a when you're 12 with a bunch of 40 year old, whatever, other recovering alcoholics, I wonder if there was any perving going on in there. I got to think that there was some, there was probably some flirtatious activity, if not more so than flirtatious activity. Nobody else what perfect is. I'm sure

Unknown  1:04:25  
No, probably not.

Unknown  1:04:28  
Well, then let's move over to the pen ultimate article, because we have the feature event here coming up in a second.

Unknown  1:04:35  
And it's from Psychology Today, written by Dr. Karen Franklin and why are all these men downloading child pornography? It's really long article and I found it kind of interesting that there's this heavy analysis going through that because of the internet. I hate that everything about the internet is like it's bad, but that it's so easy to download all of the porn and maybe when you start you're watching something very

Unknown  1:05:00  
Just kind of normal if you want it you know if we can come up with what normal is and then you like I guess you get tired of normal so you move something a little bit more extreme. You move further extreme and you get into I mean she even says in the article about moving into bc reality and other bsm kind of topics and eventually somebody ends up having the kiddie porn stuff because not necessarily like you're into it but it is that something unique and just different that it then continues to excite the chemicals in your brain but there's a difference between a pedophile and someone that is curious I guess and we keep convicting these people of these horrendous sentences for some level of curiosity. I think that the way that she described it was like someone that is actually like a pedophile would have them organized and categorized and someone that just happens to be a porn aficionados it's just part

Unknown  1:06:00  
The collection not actually something that would be coveted I guess you could say just an interesting article on on how different areas of your brain starts shrinking if you are a relentless porn watcher and the domain level start changing and all that just just an interesting it's not sure what impact it would have in any regard for our case it's a very long read but I did I did a Larry read because it was so long but the aggregating nine studies on defense using meta analytic methods that's that's a sub header there. Prominent pedophilia research or Michael, CTO and colleagues found the average on average a man was been caught what child porn has a 3.4% chance of committing another non contact offense and that's pretty low compared to read it regular recidivism that's done studies that's not one and then the rest will actually bless the child is even lower at around 2% which is

Unknown  1:06:56  
fairly low. I mean, I know that what I would tell people the reason why

Unknown  1:07:00  
This is such a horrible example. If I put 100 bullets

Unknown  1:07:03  
Yes, auto fire gun and I tell you all the two blondes, I bet you it might be shooting at you. So.

Unknown  1:07:09  
So yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you on your analogy there of the numbers like the risk factor there. So if I let you run out 100 yards I'll tell you that there's only two bullets in who's gonna go to be live round. I bet you what debate open fire. But the The 2% is a pretty low rate. So I think we can extrapolate from the nine studies that people looking at porn do not in huge numbers transition to become child molesters? I think we can say that.

Unknown  1:07:37  
Sure. You could also say that they don't transition to become more child porn consumers so after their after their outdid is probably the key point there. It seems like for a first time person provided they're not like the distributor or the creator of it. You could give them something along the lines of a community service a significant slap on the wrist very, you know sternly or something.

Unknown  1:08:00  
You would possibly then see no further activity I would tend to agree with that that's take our criminal justice system could do a lot of slap on the wrist and probably never see these people again when I say slap on the wrist I mean in terms of comparing it to her renders prison sentences you can punish someone pretty severely what give an example for a DWI driving driving while intoxicated that's a horrendous punishment you get with the first offender program you don't do a single hour in jail except for the time that takes you to be booked through the process but you have to be even though you could potentially mow down and kill a family in that state. Right. But you you to do the first offender program which is what you're going to get your first guilty plea

Unknown  1:08:43  
you're going to have to have an ignition interlock

Unknown  1:08:47  
for a year, right. We're going to have to attend a screening to see if you have a drinking problem. You're going to have to sit through a victim impact panel. You're going to have to be on probation until you get those supervised probation to you.

Unknown  1:09:00  
get those things done and then it can be converted to unsupervised probation. You're going to have a series of court costs for all those screenings that all those fines and stuff so you're going to have hundreds of dollars for that you're going to have attorneys fees to humiliation of having your

Unknown  1:09:15  
arrest published in the newspaper it is a horrendous amount of punch with it goes for the first time you don't do a single day in jail

Unknown  1:09:25  
right? But that's enough to where the overwhelming number of people don't do a second one that people do second and subsequent DWI. So I'm not saying that nobody ever does. But I'm talking about in the totality of the rest universe. That is enough of a deterrence

Unknown  1:09:42  
them what you do with the subsequent offenders. You have to figure out different approaches, just putting them in jail for a year cool after jets. That doesn't work either. But that's what that's what we tend to do. We tend to say when you had the first offender program, you had a chance to get some help you didn't get any

Unknown  1:10:00  
By golly, this time around we need to give teach you a lesson you won't soon forget. Well all you do is teach yourself a lesson because you spent a whole bunch of money incarcerating them, you make sure they don't have a job when they come out. And they come out in a worst condition being around real offenders, because these might be high functioning people who have normal jobs, a good paying jobs, pay taxes, and they come out less functional and then you have you have damaged more damage unit than what you had because they weren't in a therapeutic community while they were incarcerated. So you actually taught yourself a lesson you've converted a person from a taxpayer unit to attacks receiving unit because they may have to go on different types of aid and they end up in that cycle the judicial system going through arrest and re arrest arrest. Maybe we need to rethink how we deal with offenders in general. Maybe the therapeutic community may need to be brought back into the picture more than what it is today

Unknown  1:10:56  
heresy the things you're saying are heresy. That's right. It's a bunch of

Unknown  1:11:00  
liberal who is what it is

Unknown  1:11:05  
interesting article long read the only thing that I'm skeptical about and you know this like. So Roberta Longo is the guy that wrote the like, like the first thing about the recidivism rate that came out in psychology today. So I don't know I don't want to condense them, condense them forever, for something that was written in the 80s and throw everything they do under the bus. Oh, now we're off to the main event.

Unknown  1:11:29  
Well, this I'm definitely going to need some help from you on this one. But for the dumb people in the audience, like myself, this is a this is a woman This is out of Ohio. This is a case that was filed where she's going to be listed as a sexual predator. And it is I guess, in in the way that I would describe it is so she did something in the past and she's going to carry this label that she then has to carry it forever and there's no due process in her carrying it effectively forever. And I definitely see that as a problem like you're judging.

Unknown  1:12:00  
By your worst day in life and you're going to carry that moniker forever My clothes you've done a very fine job with my stupid people talk so

Unknown  1:12:12  
so

Unknown  1:12:14  
this for purposes of litigation this was a Jane Doe

Unknown  1:12:18  
she pleaded guilty to unlawful sexual contact with a minor in Ohio in 2006 and she was saying as to when your confinement in five years of supervision and the the the process in Ohio with that time allowed for the sentence in court to set the level of registration they could categorize and that was one category called sexually violent predator and she was categorize that way a sexual predator a baby let me take the out sexual predator and there was no vowed to never she was a sexual predator by designation of the court

Unknown  1:12:56  
and the issue that she raised with

Unknown  1:13:00  
Was that that designation cannot be removed because in 2003 the law had changed at all how that previously allowed for anybody who was deemed a sexual predator to go back and petition for a read as a nation but the how general Sibley decided that that it was a one time determination you know it costs money to have hearings and to give people second third fourth and fifth chances so for whatever the reasons why they decided 2003 that they would do away with the opportunity to come back and revisit the issue so Miss doe felt like that that was of due process because she has that predator excuse me violent that are that that's not SVG. I'm so used to show what is predator but it's not about prayer. She has that sexual predator drones designation

Unknown  1:13:47  
and and she wanted to the federal court she took her case to federal court and people do that because the process provides for compensation on the backside of these cases.

Unknown  1:14:00  
can drag on for a long time and it's so Dave prevailing party can win. And of course in hindsight the question would you ask us wonder why she didn't take it to state court? Well, I know that one of the considerations would have been the fee award that what it would not have come with it and stay corporate to stake works have been fairly generous in Ohio, they've had two major decisions after Ohio ramped up the registration requirements and oh seven oh, how was the first state to come into compliance substantially compliant with the federal guidelines that they pass it on six and Adam Walsh Act, Ohio wanted to get the bonus money for the implementation and they they they were the first state to be pronounced, substantially compliant in 2007 and that one away from the risk based system for the judge to judge imposed a finding of which designation offender was categorized and it put it into based on your offense of conviction and the how courts were very generous on that they

Unknown  1:15:00  
In that case, I have bowed it. They said that that you could do that it was separation of powers. And then they came back shortly late later on a case of Williams and said, and you can't do it ex post facto either. So the people who are under the old system largely got restored to what they have under the old system. But the new system the 2007 version is office based only. And she she said that that's not fair. I'm entitled to not be a predator and the district court the federal district judge agreed with her and said, yes, you're entitled to process but when she took it up on appeal, the Court of Appeals, which is the next step below, do US Supreme Court that court said nope, you don't have that that would be the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals. They said no, you don't have such a such a right to due process that that your state lawmakers have decided that they don't want to free visitation time and time again. That's their prerogative to do that in us sitting here with black robes. We don't get to decide what would be a better public policy for

Unknown  1:16:00  
Your state you've had them do you have opportunity to show that you will and the fact they don't wish you to come back again and again, again, that's their prerogative that's essentially in a nutshell what they said in his opinion is that it was the purview of the legislature to do what they did and we're who are Wait a second but like people were there sends to life and then they get set off and they get set off by X number of years seems like sort of a due process ish kind of thing.

Unknown  1:16:29  
Why Why would you be labeled as a thing and then never ever be able to revisit it I don't care if the lawmakers said that they didn't want to do it but why wouldn't you have some way like even though they didn't establish some sort of framework for you to have an appeal process Why Why can't you blaze a trail and do it yourself? Well, you to court in sight such a process couldn't exist they just said it's not you don't want Andy being a good

Unknown  1:17:00  
want people who have black robes sitting at high up in a building in the 14th floor of a federal courthouse out of state deciding that

Unknown  1:17:12  
the citizens Ohio have to spend their money a particular way and imposing that will of the people of Ohio to provide a process that the citizens decided that they did not want to provide the core to say that's not for us to tell the state of how to spend this money they've given her a due process when she had her convictions she had the opportunity to argue that she was in a predator she had a full hearing and she was adjudicated a predator

Unknown  1:17:40  
and therefore she is a predator until the state decides they want to change that and that that's that that was her due process that what entitles a judge to require a state that I of course i'm not i'm just big devils I know I know I know I know but what a title what titles a judge to spend the citizens body to four

Unknown  1:18:00  
Have to do something it less less of a constitutional violation and they're saying there is no constitutional violation because you had to process there's nowhere in the constitution says you have to have continuing to process over and over again you don't get to go back and argue your conviction time and time and time again you get to do process of the fair trial once if it's a fair trial, there's a fair trial the only mechanism that she would then have is to like actually make an amendment change or some law change an amendment to the law to allow some sort of rehearing every x number of years or something like that right that is correct the court said that that that it's a it's a decision for little house and we decide if they want people that are having to wear this label for their life and reporting every 90 days for life if they want to take that away they can do that but they have a category under there under their tier three already for they have essentially the same obligations you know, if you're a while you could be waiting what three years and

Unknown  1:19:00  
She's She's pretty AWS. So the people she's under the old system, which gave her that obligation under their old pre AWS what they call Megan's Law in Ohio but the but the AWS people in Ohio they have to report every nine days for the rest of their life and they can't do anything about it the and the court said that that's just fine if that's what they want a regulatory system to be hmm um but so we talked a lot trying to compare like so the registry is just a civil regulatory scheme okay great but there's nothing else like this with that much impact over your life unless you should it should it should argue that in this case so she has argued him to do process she did not get the red shirt red shirt was Peter do I didn't see anywhere this opinion work that was an issue with wouldn't I mean, the reason why you would try and change any sort of debt like designation like that would be because of the impact that it's having on our life what I mean I'm putting my thoughts in her brain but

Unknown  1:20:00  
right but but but you have to look at the issue below before the court of appeals can take it up if you're just simply argument that there's no due process if she had in her case had been the treasures period if they would be deciding that they did the side that the registry was pure different opinion today decided that she was not entitled due process

Unknown  1:20:18  
Do you think that she should have argued about like the the devastation of being on the registry especially with that extra fun Mark marker on her profile that it was I think she probably should have in hindsight And do you think that that's then lack of attorneys foresight in seeing this in the way to argue it and develop the case

Unknown  1:20:40  
possibly, but you have to have information and have to have the pleadings

Unknown  1:20:44  
I'd have to go a lot deeper this but

Unknown  1:20:47  
she she didn't. She didn't argue that the register was interesting. It seems like that would be because I mean otherwise, like if you have a designation that no one ever sees or really cares about if it were just law enforcement only.

Unknown  1:21:00  
That had your your photo in this in this book with a Polaroid picture of yourself I I kind of don't think most of our people like I wouldn't care I would care less if that were if it were just isolated down in that way well well

Unknown  1:21:16  
when you look on the page itself you look at the the the page for procedural history is that still file this 42 United States Code 19 a reaction against Ohio Attorney General to Super name of the file bureau of criminal investigation and the sheriff of Hamilton County Sikkim declaration that Ohio revised code blah blah blah is unconstitutional because it prevents her from obtaining a hearing to demonstrate that she has no longer like it engage and it is a future in one or more sexual organ fences does follow her procedure and substantive substantive due process under the 14th amendment the constitution they'll they'll also sakes order that that hearing be scheduled in a citizen court to determine whether she's currently dangerous.

Unknown  1:22:00  
That's the marketplace. There's nothing site at the registries as bizarre that I see. And I don't know. So this was filed in oh six. So she may not know I'm sorry. In 12 she filed it so the stuff has been tacked on since oh six a being like the registries impact so interesting that she wouldn't have

Unknown  1:22:20  
brought that up

Unknown  1:22:22  
well, she just got off supervision, I'm guessing because it said she got a year in custody and then five years probation. So when you add six to six, you're at 12. So she probably wrote out the storm and then she filed this one sheet of paper because not want to rock the boat knowing that they would try to violate her locker up. Of course, I know that some states the probation system is pure as the driven snow and they would never do that. But I don't I don't hold that that hope that that's a universal thing, but probably in your jurisdiction, their peers, their driven

Unknown  1:22:53  
but but she she she had a very narrowly focused case now

Unknown  1:22:59  
in hindsight.

Unknown  1:23:00  
What are looking backwards we could say perhaps maybe she should have brought in more issues that the registry was punitive but she didn't she was complaining about due process procedural and substantive which I'm very inadequate explaining the difference for the to assault one even try so in closing what what what should we title this segment this uh. This episode

Unknown  1:23:22  
well the people who bought a strict constructionist and conservative judges and who are non intervention is and not legislate from the bench they should be very very happy with us really just like to people in Nebraska when the state court decided to take a different direction that the federal court you had an activist federal court and Nebraska and in this case you've got a court that's taking a hands off attitude and they're deferring to the states to do what they think is best for their citizens and if you are up the conservative persuasion then that should this rule which should make you extremely

Unknown  1:24:00  
Happy because this is what a conservative jurors for couple states rights rule the day or conservative judges a firm states rights

Unknown  1:24:08  
well

Unknown  1:24:10  
I think states rights

Unknown  1:24:14  
because we get we get we get attacked for us as a conservative said I don't know if this three judge panel I don't know what what what point of what the ecology is but I'm saying as a general rule this would be something that a conservative would want the judges for white Donald and Larson that don't know anything about light Donald or Larson of the three but but you would not want a federal judge telling the state you have to spend a whole bunch of money to do something that you've chosen more than a decade ago that you don't want to do you that that's just that's inconsistent with conservative doctrine you would not want a court coming into enforcing the right to do that right separation of powers right

Unknown  1:24:57  
absolutely and when

Unknown  1:25:00  
states do things you don't agree with and all of a sudden you look for more aware intervention but but but these these judges they take they took a very hands off conservative viewpoint of like the state do what they're doing other The only other piece of this and it's it's just sort of like a minor footnote is I just want to highlight that this was filed in in in 2012 and it took six or seven years for it to actually get to this point

Unknown  1:25:26  
and and and one out this the the legal team will not collect any money out of this so this poor lady which is is so big a sexual predator probably doesn't have gobs of money the legal team was hoping to collect all the backside is a prevailing party they will get a dime

Unknown  1:25:47  
for the hundreds of hours and whatever call say spell this out of pocket they do want to speculate how much it was like in billable hours

Unknown  1:25:56  
it would be on an automatic double for for six.

Unknown  1:26:00  
years of litigation going up what appealed up with the Michigan The Sixth Circuit case that the field war two the attorneys that the state stipulated to was what holy shit so I was just gonna say like six figures and you're going to turn around and say no

Unknown  1:26:13  
no no that does versus direct case will settled for $1.8 million in legal fees awarded to the brow already but I'm saying for this I was gonna say something like in the six figures and you would turn around and say no seven figures for this maybe well, I don't know if it'd be seven figures but it easily be six figures, but

Unknown  1:26:33  
and she she's, Wow, that's a lot of money. Okay,

Unknown  1:26:39  
that that's why people are not lining up to do these cases because this is your risk. You've got six years of your firm's hours where you had to pay for that and if you're a solo practitioner you can barely do something like Elson run Brighton Colorado when she did the case case District Court that's up on appeal 20th right yeah, Allison was just a

Unknown  1:27:00  
solo practitioner who was doing the best she could have did a very fine job but but if you're if you're a sole practitioner you're not feeding your family during this time is you're going affirm your partners are asking you what are you doing here I mean this thing is run up without $162,000 A billable where's this where's it going then when you're $240,000 of billable hours and then when the when the decision like this comes down if this is a law firm is carried this did they're looking at as themselves saying why the hell did we fall for this it was like we've got a quarter million dollars invested in this case we're not going to die interesting god it's so expensive it's just so expensive is that

Unknown  1:27:42  
the offender population wonders why that people don't step up yeah no doubt this is why wow

Unknown  1:27:48  
just like administrative Lee probably won't record next week possibly won't record after that. So next week we'll be Christmas and Sorry guys. go spend time with your family. Don't listen to a podcast about sexual offences and

Unknown  1:28:00  
Depending on how schedules worked people traveling and all that stuff we may throw out an episode that would be like leading up right up to New Year's

Unknown  1:28:08  
we might add but we love you just the same even though we don't do one Christmas Absolutely.

Unknown  1:28:14  
Hey Larry, how can people spread the word and share the podcast with all of the people that they know

Unknown  1:28:20  
well it's very very delicate but take it

Unknown  1:28:25  
is complex delicate and wicked wicked send people to registry matters dot c Oh

Unknown  1:28:35  
isn't that one way that is definitely one way that is to visit the website where the episode will be published for all the world to see.

Unknown  1:28:43  
And and then if you have questions or comments and you want to to leave something for us to play our possibly answer a question if it's within our limited powers. You can call us at 747 like the airplane two to 74477. I'll also add that you could do you could

Unknown  1:29:00  
We could we could bring you on over discord to and have a much higher quality connection if you want to do it that way too

Unknown  1:29:06  
and and you can email us if you want to chat with us we don't guarantee that we can solve your problem but we can at least at least say hi thank you for the email that's registry batters cast at gmail. com

Unknown  1:29:21  
or you can do the thing we really like that support us@patreon.com slash registry matters it's not portraying

Unknown  1:29:31  
I thought you told me it wasn't portray it is not betraying I'm just picking on somebody. Somebody that doesn't listen to the podcast. Even

Unknown  1:29:39  
the discord you can explain us all gibberish to me. I'll see there something about Discord. Yeah, just scored is how we record the podcast. It's it's considered Skype for gamers, and it's a high quality Hey, there's a whole community here of us here for the registry matters podcast. I'm on here all day. If you wanted to come in and chat you could join us on Discord. And that would be super duper

Unknown  1:30:00  
Fun.

Unknown  1:30:01  
How would I find you? If I wanted to find your discord? If you clicked on the link that is in the show notes? you would you would totally Find us on Discord. They'll just magically, I would just be in your chat room. If I did that. That is pretty much how it's set up. Yeah, it's not very difficult. You don't even have to, you can maintain anonymity out of the whole deal that's going to ask you to like register your email address, but just click away from it. You don't have to. And you can make any name you want. You can be as vulgar and profane as you want. Can't say that I'm going to respond if you do it that way. You don't have to give me your real name by any means. And But yeah, I mean, I think it would be a great place for us to have a regular ongoing conversation with people and people asking questions or posting links and supporting the podcast inside of the discord server as well. And we are happy I could even convince you to show up there and you could have some sort of dialogue with people there too. And we are we are growing and I might do that one days. Yeah, yeah,

Unknown  1:30:57  
it is. Did you say more about

Unknown  1:31:00  
Like 30% in the last couple of weeks or episodes, yeah, call it a month. Yeah, sure. Yeah, absolutely.

Unknown  1:31:08  
Yep. Larry I as always very much appreciate enjoy the time with you. And I hope you have a wonderful Christmas and I will talk to you soon. Thank you and it's my pleasure and Merry Christmas to every one of our listeners and supporters. Happy Holidays. Whatever you do for holidays. Be safe and we look forward to seeing your the next episode. Absolutely and great. Have a great night. Talk to you soon.

Unknown  1:31:33  
Bye.