Andy 0:00 registry matters is an independent production. The opinions and ideas here are that of the hosts and do not reflect the opinions of any other organization. If you have a problem with these thoughts, FYI p recording live from si p studios, east and west, transmitted across the internet, this is Episode 7575 layer, we are almost almost as old as you have registered matters. Larry 0:22 Well, that's kind of take some doing it as old as I am. Andy 0:25 Well, we are incriminating by the week. So we I don't know, what are you 300 or something? Larry 0:30 Well, if if I served in the Lincoln administration, where we've gone This is the third century I've been alive. You know, I was I was an adult them. So it's, it's it's getting? I'm getting up there. Andy 0:48 Because you were interviewing for Lincoln's staff, weren't you? Larry 0:52 Yes, I served under in the War Department Under Secretary of State. Andy 0:58 Do you know what today is as far big like a special? Not quite holiday? Larry 1:03 What is today? Andy 1:04 Today is May the fourth so May the fourth be with you? Do you get it? Larry 1:10 I get it. Andy 1:11 Do you really? I'm shocked if you do. Larry 1:13 That's funny. I forgot to laugh. Andy 1:16 Come on, man. You've now just hurt many, many people's feelings if you don't go along with that whole little shindig. Larry 1:22 That's what we used to say. In the old days. That was so funny. I forgot the laughs You remember that one? Yeah, Andy 1:27 I do remember that one. That sounds like some schoolyard humor. Unknown Speaker 1:32 We Andy 1:32 got, we got a couple of voicemail message to listen to. And one of them is really, really long. And this individual cannot shorten it. And anyway, but I'll play that one second. The first one is from Mike and Mike said that he was just waking up when he was recording this. So it might be a little incoherent. Unknown Speaker 1:48 Because this is a long time was the mic down in Florida? And I just want to call this question. I sent my case file into Gil chef net here in state Florida. I'm waiting to hear from him on the consultation. My question is, where should I be focusing my energy to prepare for this? Unknown Speaker 2:10 To see if I can get some kind of post conviction relief? What kind of questions to be asking what should I be looking forward for him to, you know, ask me, any kind of advice you can help me would be great. One thing I have worked into my favorite is the victim in this case, is wanting to come to court wanting to testify on my behalf. I don't know if that would help in the state of Florida. But if you guys have any insight on that with a club here, what you think about it. And I would like to say bill, FYI, P to House Bill 97 in Florida. I'm glad that didn't pass. That was a nightmare. And I'm glad we dodged that bullet. As always, appreciate you guys. The podcast is great. I've never missed one. And I look forward hear what she had to say. Thank you. Andy 3:02 And that's one of our supporters as well. Thank you, Mike. And so that's two parts. Two things going on there with that question. Oh, yeah. Well, I guess one thing was a question. And then the other part was about the house House Bill. Larry 3:14 So in terms of Mr. Chef, and I was one of our supporters at Marshall, and we think will have it's hard to answer the question about what he should focus on. But you don't know what his post conviction issues are. If you just simply box up a movie, but actually does boxes anymore. But if you just something box up documents and send them to an attorney, it's probably not the most productive way to get help, because I tell people to to write your bullets out of what you think your claims are. Not all the supporting evidence, but what you believe your claims are. And they said, What do you mean? I said, Well, I mean, what issues do you have? An issue is, before I entered my plea, they deprived asleep for seven days straight. And I turned on a fire hose intermittently during that time. And just to stop that from happening to me, I pled guilty. That's your issue. Now we'll get we'll unpack the evidence later. But but but Gil's going to need to know what his issues are, that he's sending him. I'm assuming he's wanting consultation, if you just simply say, I don't like being convicted? One, not very many people do. So I don't know if he if the if the question or his conviction was derived from a from a plea that severely narrows what can be done post conviction. I don't know if it was obtained by jury verdict, that would give additional options assuming that that time is have not expired for some of those things are very time sensitive. In terms of direct appeal, and issues. Constitutional violations, generally you have more and more of a window of time. Because if the concept if the statute is constitutionally defective, then you your conviction is invalid on its face, because there's no basis for the person. It sounds like when he says the victim is willing to come forth and testify. What I'm guessing is that we've got someone who's done a plea, and the person has decided that they want to recant. Andy 5:20 Well, I can feel it like this is something that happened in the 90s. He's been on the registry for like forever, before any of the, you know, enhanced restrictions came in place, and he's on lifetime lifetime registry in Florida. I'm pretty sure his objective is to get off the registry in Florida. Larry 5:40 Okay, so so he's not actually attacking his conviction, right? Because it's white the way the if you listen to the message, it sounds like he said his his his victims will to come forward and testify. Andy 5:53 Like on his behalf as a character witness because it was a Romeo and Juliet. Larry 5:56 Yeah, but but he, but he also used to work split conviction, if he's challenged the ret challenging the registry, that's not a post conviction process. Because the cost of this a constitutional attack, if he's challenged to the registry, don't have time, he would be going, if Florida were to have a removal mechanism that the victim gets to participate in. That would make sense. But as far as I know, and I don't have all the answers in terms of how you get off registries, and which ones you can and can't potentially get off of. But my recollection was that there's not a removal process in Florida, there's not a removal process that he's he used the term post conviction. So if we're, if we're trying to undo our conviction here, then he has to have some basis to proceed in there has to be, the way he wants to proceed has to be there has to be a vehicle for him to proceed in. And if he's served out the totality of a sentence, then he's not in custody for happiest purposes. So that's a vehicle that's close to him, if he's gonna try to do an appeal of some type there, those are probably for clothes. So so you know, the the, the funnel is pretty narrow at this stage, if we're talking about a conviction that old in terms of anything post conviction remedy he could have, that I can think of. So it would probably I know people get disappointed when I say this, but I don't have enough information from the question though, exactly where he's trying to go away, where he's where he's trying to get with guilt. But just letting a box of your files got enough if you don't have succinct issues of what you want to do, and the attorney can build the evidentiary record later, if if it's something where your victim was to recount that's not going to help you very much because the victim Rick recanted testimony, and is not worth much standing by itself. Because, as I've said, on previous podcast, and he's listened to every once I'm sure he's heard this, but for those who haven't listened, everyone, recantation is not of any value in and of itself, because at the point a person recounts what they've previously sworn to, at that point that become de facto a liar, because the two stories they've told cannot be true. So at that point, if you're the prosecutor, you just have to say, Now, let me make sure I prepared the witness. You're saying now that this didn't happen. And you said in 1997, under oath that this did happen. So you're telling two different stories. So you're admitting that you are a liar? Right? Yes. Then the next question is, why should we believe you today? You're an admitted liar. Right. Right. And you so with with trying to undo a conviction on recanted testimony? That's not going to do it. If you have recanted testimony, and other evidence, like there was an evolution of DNA that can be that you can exonerate yourself with that, or someone else comes forward. So I can guarantee you he didn't do it, I did it. That might help you. But but a person sometimes trying to take responsibility for a crime can't because they actually didn't do it. And they're beyond the statute limitations. So the prosecutor will look at that, with the great trepidation. If someone comes and says, Well, I'd like to take responsibility for that I did it. Well, how come you didn't come forward, when you were that within the zone of prosecution, so they want to hold on to the conviction they've got because they're dubious about the confession? That's coming again, too late to be prosecuted. But it's going to it's going to help if we have a little bit more information. So I would welcome another phone call. Or either appear on the program if he wants to? Andy 9:24 Well, he's already been on so yeah, we could we could make that happen again, maybe he'll come on next week. Alright, um, and then here's here's the long voicemail message from somebody in Tennessee. Unknown Speaker 9:36 Good afternoon. This is William from Tennessee, and I've just finished listening to your most recent podcast, and I too, was excited about the ruling against the sexual history polygraph requiring disclosure of past victims. But I have a question about the polygraph that persons like myself who are under lifetime supervision have to take every six months, which is basically a compliance polygraph. And in Tennessee, the state law Tennessee code annotated 3913 526 Unknown Speaker 10:16 states very plainly that any knowing violation of the conditions of community supervision for life can be prosecuted or prosecutable as a class a misdemeanor, meaning baking cake, you can get up to 11 months, 29 days and county locked up, and you can get a maximum fine of 20 $500. Unknown Speaker 10:39 Now, what's the difference in the self incriminating version of the sexual history polygraph? And them asking you questions that if you admit to it, that they could send you to jail for a misdemeanor crime? Either way, it's still a fifth amendment. Unknown Speaker 11:01 And I was wondering, is there any way that these court rulings against the sexual history polygraph the reasoning could be applied in challenging the maintenance polygraph since they also seek self incriminating testimony? And thank you for what you do. And for all you people who support the registry and all these months monstrous laws. You're such friendly, young people. But thank you and have a great day. Andy 11:32 Thank you on both on both counts from both callers for saying the IP appreciate that very much. It's getting out it's getting around people are fit enough. Larry 11:40 So that is actually not as long as I expected. That was that was a good question. And I just know, first, this is the first time I've heard it. I we have in this area of polygraphs, we have the body of case law is developing. So we don't know where it's gonna take us. Well, what we do know is that the courts are recognizing that there's are there are serious issues with hooking people up to a device and getting them to make disclosures that can incarcerate them. That's what we do know. We don't know. And I maintenance polygraph for a CSL person that I'm not familiar enough with know exactly what they're asking on the maintenance polygraph. If you want a regular probation in our in our state under sec federal supervision, I know exactly what they'd be asking your Well, not exactly but fairly certainly what they'd be asking you here that we'd be asking you about, about putting yourself in the proximity of minors, because you would have typical convictions, you conditions that you not be associating. But any wonder under the age of 18, they would be asking you have you have you potentially viewed any erotic stimuli, the types of things that would be asking you have you violated curfew, all of those things could send you away. Under CSS, if it has the potential to send you away. My lay opinion would be that this would be this would form the basis for a very credible claim, the body of case all this developing, but what would make a very credible claim. So I would need to read 3913 dash 526 a little more carefully. And then I'd have to know a little bit more about how CSL works in Tennessee and what type of what what the what the outcome is for those who violate it. But at first blush, I think that will is onto something like he typically is that the that this was an opportunity to expand the reach of the rulings. But someone's got to come forward, got to have a little bank and make a challenge a sort of challenge and and see where it goes in the courts. And my opinion to federal courts are the best place to be with this type of stuff. Although I think we got a recent decision that was favorable out of the out of the Supreme Court and and Massachusetts estates very important about the about the GPS monitoring, it was deemed to be clearly a search and seizure. So I think that, that that the Tennessee courts, I would probably be be trying to avoid and I'll be trying to get into federal court on on this particular claim. Andy 14:19 Excellent. I constantly constantly struggle with polygraph thing because it is such bogus junk. And unless you have some sort of disclosure with the person giving the polygraph that all the information is there just literally for to make sure that you're being compliant and all that stuff. But it just like, it seems that they're trying so very hard to get you to admit to doing some sort of probation violation, just anything of that sort that you incidentally ran into somebody down the toy aisle at toys at a Walmart. Like there. It's a fishing expedition, as we've said a bajillion times. Larry 14:54 It is it's and the thing is it works. I mean, the polygraph device itself, not work. But the psychological impact does. People and I, people confess at the end of the exam when they're told they're showing. Yeah, Andy 15:10 yeah. And I and I said we could we could hook some wires and electrodes up to a potato. And if you believe that it was going to like show deception, well, then you would admit your guilt to the potato, like seriously. So don't believe in the potato people? Unknown Speaker 15:24 Well, Larry 15:24 but but like, say it is it is a successful tool, whether or not it's based on sound science, which I've come around to having my dubious it based on what the experts have told me that actually administer the test. But in my experience, it does result in an admission when people will I don't want to be considered a liar. So by all hell yes, I did do that. Right? Andy 15:50 Well, we're going to do something very different. At this point, we are going to do a dynamic reading or is a dynamic or theatrical reading. And there was a conversation going on over the discord server, the registry matters Discord server between a couple people. And I couldn't quite figure out how to like narrow this down into some sort of concise Question and Answer thing. So here we go. We have two parts to this three act play. And so Larry, give it a shot. Larry 16:17 registration requirements differ from state to state. These differences include what crimes require registration, length of registration, what sort of classification or tier certain offenses fall under, and many other restrictions on liberties. So let's say a person is convicted and required to register for life in state a later moved to state be in state be that same offense would have required the individual to register for 10 years. However, state be has a catch all under statute that says you must register for whichever period of longer and this instance, the lifetime requirement of state eight, this seems to generate a constitutional concern as it appears to violate the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th amendment. Sold, there is a rash sold there is a rational basis for requiring a new resident and state be to read for life what another resident of state be that committed the same offense on the same day as all the required rights for 10 years. State be clearly doesn't see the same offense as egregious estate a, so they treat the person. So so. So why treat the person any different as someone who was convicted and state be, it seems to me that a person should be required to register or according to the most similar offense in the state, which they currently reside. Unfortunately, Andy 17:33 this has the potential to lead to a wave of registrants flooding, two states that favor their situation, that would be a political nightmare for politicians who would undoubtedly scramble to make tougher laws. I think Larry has mentioned this, and I'm not sure if it's being challenged or not. On the other side, since constitutional claims are federal, they could argue that if you don't have to register for life, the other people with your crime convicted in state aren't been aren't being treated as they are registering for life, ie you aren't compared to the state you move to but the state you did the crime in, I'm just parsing what the other side may stay. I agree with you since it's a civil registry that is administered and put in place by the receiving state, you should be treated equally with those that live in that state. Larry 18:21 I say that. Andy 18:22 No, you didn't say that. He's just sort of like channeling his inner Larry. Larry 18:29 It's super what I would have said, though, yes, with that. So I would have said it slightly differently. But the and now Now, let's be clear. All states don't have that language that says that you have to register for the longer period. And generally, my experience is that states don't have that I can think of Utah that has that. But I can't think of a long list of states that say, Well, if it would only be 10 years here, but since you came from a state where you're convicted requires life, its lifetime here. So I don't think that's a large problem. That's a large problem if it's you. But I don't think that that's the norm. And should it be and and if you want my opinion, I think that there is the potential for the type of constitutional challenge that the first reader one of the first person I read from, I think there Frank is headed in the right path. I can't say since I'm not licensed practice law, how valid it is, but certainly as culpable, incredible enough to get into court and not be left out. Andy 19:25 So you're in some sort of state. I mean, like we could just say, Florida, Florida has lifetime registration and you move to someplace, I don't know, wherever that doesn't have a lifetime registration, and you committed some offense, stuff, the destination state doesn't have it. But you're required to register there for life. And when you compare two people with similar crimes that are now both residing in the state where you are, one of them has lifetime registration, one of them doesn't. And and that is a 14th amendment Equal Protection Clause claim. Larry 19:54 That possibly might be like, say, since I'm not qualified to say for sure, yeah, possibly, maybe protection, because you got two citizens of your state, who are in identical circumstances. And in terms of their their requirement to be in this regulatory scheme. One has a 10 year obligation, one has a lifetime obligation, they committed essentially the same crime. So you know, it's credible enough, though, I think you did you get your at least get in court don't get laughed out. But we need to find someone who knows what all equal protection clause applies to say that that would actually survive on motion to dismiss and all the things that the state would file. Andy 20:30 And someone has to essentially attempt to do the sad thing so that they have standing you can't just file a victimless claim is that or somebody that is not hampered by these claims? Is that correct? Larry 20:43 Right, we're gonna need someone with standing to make this assertion that's living in a state someone who moved from from a lifetime state to Utah, and that offense was still be 10 years, had they come into Utah, we're gonna need someone to do that. Before will know the answer. And, and they're probably we're going to have to plan spend a lot of money and do a lot of appellate work, because I would imagine that the state of Utah is going to defend that that law with with with a lot of energy, because they don't they put it on the books for a reason. People that had been moving to Utah, were saying, I'm coming here for to your state because it's easier, right? At some point, they accumulated enough names into our document database of people who moved to Utah, it had longer requirements, and they said, we've got to close this floodgate. That's why I tell people when you move to another state, don't say I came here because your walls or for God's sakes, think of something else to say. Andy 21:35 And don't ruin him for all the people that have come before you or potentially coming after you. We shoot ourselves in the foot. Larry 21:44 Yeah, would you would you check in with your new state? The first thing they asked you at the registry is why did you move here? Well, if you can't think of any lie to say, then just say I don't really know. I just love the climate. I don't know. But but but people say well, your law, your laws are more like some more recently here. Well, that gets documented. And then the law enforcement apparatus, as I call it, tells their people, their leaders that we've had X number of people move here in the last year from out of state because our laws relax, and then they go find a legislator, and they say we need to close this loophole. And that's how the Utah law got passed to impose the greater requirement. Unknown Speaker 22:24 Right. Andy 22:27 And that's why we don't, or you don't and Nestle doesn't publicly announce, well, this is the research that we've done, and people will be far easier if they moved over here. So that's why that information doesn't be kind of public. Larry 22:39 That is correct. We take Arsenal takes a lot of heat for that policy, which I have encouraged that policy. And I hope that it survives when I'm no longer a part of an arsenal, but we don't want to hurt people. And having a list of desirable states would be very detrimental. Because the politicians could not stand such a list being published. I mean, all they would all it would take would be a victims advocates group to say look at this website, they come in with a screenshot of the website, and they'd have the list of the most favorable, like states for sex offenders. And what do you think that the legislators in those states would have to do at that point? Do you think they can say, Well, you know, we're going to do the right thing, morally, we're going to keep it the way it is, and the hell with this victims advocates group, they're not going to do that. Somebody's going to sponsor legislation that's going to be difficult to vote against, and it's going to end up with making it to the governor's desk, and it's going to become law. So that's why we don't do that, even though we get a lot of criticism. It's like, why don't you people do that? I mean, you claim you're an organization that cares about the offender, why don't you people tell us where we can live? Andy 23:39 Good times, as always good times. So keep your mouth shut. That's the moral of this whole story. We, uh, we have an article, I have no idea what this publication is. So maybe, you know, this could be called out as fake news or something. But it's not that kind of story. But it's from the Northern Light. And the title of it is abolish the sex offender registry. It goes over the exact same points we continue to go over. I just personally throw these in there if I find them because I like to know that there are people that we don't necessarily have very much affiliation with any affiliation at all that is is talking are same points of that the registry is an effective it destroys, there's so much collateral damage on the other side of it. You know, pointing out that there are 89,000 minors on the sex offender registry for exploration or you know, other kind of like non non coerced consensual kind of things amongst teens or you know, other miners. Anyway. That's a that's all I want to say about that. Larry 24:42 Well, there's, there's the second paragraph is filled with, with what's examples now, the 15 year old Pennsylvania who was charged with manufacturing disseminating child pornography, after taking explicit pictures of herself, and sharing them. Now, we don't get that Whoa, she shared the with, but, but, but regardless of who she shared the with, she should not be charged with any crime whatsoever. She's a 15 year old girl. Yeah, for God's sakes, what the hell's wrong with you people up there. That, you know, if she if she shared them with adults, then there's there there are consequences on the books for for adults possessing those photos. But you would charge the 15 year old with nothing. Andy 25:32 There was a case where three years ago with all the teens in Colorado in a fairly affluent school, and there were like 100 teens that had some sort of like a locker secure place on their phone. Larry, I literally have no idea what happened to that case, it just seemed like they dropped it disappear. Yeah, that's so why why can they drop it there but like, this shit still goes on in other places on a Larry 25:55 public pressure that that cut across an affluent community that had a lots of people who had influence. And they told her like a prosecutor, we do not want our children to have these records. And the prosecutor Listen, that's that's all difference. But the next part on a couple or a couple of 14 year old boys in New Jersey, he pulled down their pants, boys. Now I don't think 14 year olds should be pulling down their pants and sitting on 12 year olds does probably not the best thing. But again, have you people forgotten what you did when you were 14? I know. Right? Yeah, this doesn't merit sex offender criminal prosecution. Andy 26:36 I mean, and that's not to say there shouldn't be some kind of punishment, some sort of slap on the wrist, some sort of I you know, there are other directions that we could go. But I mean, I'm assuming some some da said, they have broken the law, and we have to prosecute them to the fullest extent. Larry 26:52 That's why you have to do what we did in the Republic of New Mexico, is you have to take that power away from them, because they will use it if they have it. You have to say, Mr. Attorney General, you have not been able to contain yourself from prosecuting teenagers. So therefore we're going to contain you. And and that's that's what has to be done here. If they have a power, they're going to use it. And I said republic of New Mexico trying to be funny because people don't believe we're part of the United States. It's still Andy 27:23 one of the three countries of Mexico, aren't you? Larry 27:27 But but this is this is so sad, that that this is happening. And that no one seems to me to agree with a writer here. I don't I don't know how widely disseminate this. This is but but Ben Edwards has hit this article solidly in terms of what's wrong with the registry. I mean, he goes into great detail about why you need to abolish the whole thing. He said that people are sometimes willing to take off the less serious offenders, but no one should be all this thing. Yeah, there should be a registry. I'm still Andy 27:56 stuck on these 14 year old boys. And then I liked was there, there, there must not have been any political pressure to not pursue it. But at the same time, was the DEA sitting there like laying in bed at night like talking to his wife or his husband, which are shut her husband whichever way that works out? Saying, gosh, I really don't know which way this should go, should I prosecute? Should I not prosecute it like, it feels like it should be a no brainer that these are just juvenile antics, maybe you give them some sort of suspension. I like talk to the parents have some counseling, I got to think that we could come up with something better, but we've decided to make this the shiniest thing ever. Larry 28:33 That's the political pressure that's caused us to have that attitude about big tough as the it's it's, it's there's no easy to the easiest decisions take the power away. We won't be having this discussion. If you can't prosecute a 15 year from making pictures themselves can't wait. We won't have this discussion anymore. Andy 28:51 Yeah. But don't they need to be punished? Don't we need to contain them? The children that is Larry 28:57 yes, we do that through counseling. And we do that through through in a in school. We do that through through like we handle through things throughout the ages when I went to school. Our cops weren't running around at a school building with guns. We would never dream such a thing. I know. Andy 29:13 I I'm just thinking back to my youth that you probably didn't see that movie. But I remember one school fight where somebody had some kind of cutting device. And then you saw like the teeniest little bit of splatter and like the coke Machines down by the cafeteria. That was the extent of violence in my school as far as I recall. Larry 29:32 Yeah, well, then it goes on this article about this about the age of consent laws, and some states don't provide a gap for those approximately made so so if the age of consent is 18. And the the one parties at one is 17. Without that protection of the law, yes, we could use discretion and not prosecute that. But it gets prosecuted anyway, because Bye, guys. He done. He had sex with a high school girl, and he was not even in high school anymore. So therefore, you have to provide that age gap of three years, four years, five years, whatever is appropriate, because otherwise you're going to have this kind of thing of 17 year olds having sex with 1819 year olds and being on the registry even though it was all consensual, and law enforcement resources put your supposes that short supply and they're overworked can bring these charges and prosecute prosecutorial resources are supposed to is such short supply. Because of the daunting caseload, they find time to prosecute these cases. How does that work out Andy Andy 30:42 not so well? Larry 30:43 How do how do they find if they're so short supplied, and overworked? How do they manage to bring these cases? I tell people, I'm not brilliant at all. I probably I probably struggle a lot. But if you look at the fact that the cops can bring such silly cases, but they talk about how short staff they are, you look at the type of cases they bring in your jurisdiction and you say, Are you really? Are you really that short staffed, because if you can put all the investigative hours into bringing these cases where the DA says I need additional prosecutors say do you really, Andy 31:19 maybe we should get more, we should get public defenders to help balance that out and give you a run for your money on the cases that you're bringing. Larry 31:27 Well, but then all you do, or you do Dennis, as I'm forgetting more public to that, because I but all you do then is you don't address the broken system, the system is broken, because there's too much being put into it too many charges too many cases being brought. There's not enough people like Philadelphia where they're trying to not bring cases they're trying to bring cases. So I don't see how that would suppress the number of cases, I want to suppress the number of people who are brought into the system. And just because we can doesn't mean we should. And since the discretion, it seems to not be able to be used, I need to take some of the discretion of white to break charges. Andy 32:07 Did you happen to hear the news when when Bernie Sanders said that even the Boston Marathon bombers should be able to be allowed to vote. Larry 32:15 I did hear that. And I don't think he's going to enjoy a lot of widespread support that stands. I don't think the public is with him on that. Andy 32:24 The the article that I'm referencing here is called the good men project with giving felons the right to vote says about us. And that's totally how the article leads off is talking about Bernie Sanders saying that we have to, we have to give everybody the right to vote, including the Boston Marathon bomber. And I got it like, go read the article, because he lays out a really good case for why we should let effectively everybody vote because as Bernie Sanders said, as soon as you carve out one exception, well, where do you Where do you draw the line in carving out the next exception, and the next one after that, and the next one after that. And before you know it, now you've got poll taxes, or you've got more voter suppression, you've got all these other things that start kicking in just let everybody vote and make it easier to vote for all the people. Even on the heels of the fed the Florida constitutional amendment, there's there's efforts in place there to do things to further suppress the vote. Larry 33:27 Well, on this on this thing, I I, I, I know that that I generally, philosophically believe that people should be allowed to vote certainly after they've paid their debt and society. But I just don't think that that, that we have evolved to that point where we're ready to open up the prisons, and instead of polls and the prisons and or absentee ballots for just don't see that wide public support for that. I think that if it's a matter of a constitutional right, that you can assert that you have a right to vote, and you can win that constitutionally. But as far as the if you have to go through a legislative process, I don't see that passing in very many states to help people vote while they're in prison. Andy 34:08 And then it does feel, again, trying I guess, trying to use like the 14th amendment, where you do have some states where the two states are that you can vote while you are incarcerated, versus states where you have lifetime banishment from voting. Doesn't that make it not equal from that regard? Or is it literally solely dependent that the states are in control of it, and there's not a federal claim there at all that could be asserted? Larry 34:34 Well, you know, you raise a point that I don't think I have an answer for a, you know, the state's generally decide how to run their elections, but like when the constitution Amendment, which are number ones that gave the 18 year old, right to Universal women's suffrage, whether whether or not the the the feds could give that power. The vote, I think they certainly could in federal elections. But do you see the conservative Boulevard national government wanting to to even assuming they had the power which they might in federal elections? Do you see us morning to bestow that right on everybody? Can you can you sense that the federal court, the US Congress, and the federal executive leadership is ready to do that? Andy 35:14 No, I can't I can't see that happening. Not at all. Larry 35:18 I'll be Sanders is going to be vilified for this. I mean, if he gains any traction in the primaries, if he emerges as any type of front runner, I think there's 21 or 22 candidates and they're not but he merges the type of front runner, they're going to vilify him with all they're gonna, they're going to cast this as the most loony thing they've ever heard. And he's going to be vilified for wanting to run commercials of him, showing him showing voting machines and prisons. And they'll make that means that the creative marketers will come up with something to vilify him about that. And if he would be the nominee I've got to have a fun because all the all the democrats are very far out there in terms of their of their ideology. We don't see we don't see anything that resembles a moderate democrat much anymore. And so the party is being pushed further and further to the left and they're out there they're out maneuvering each other to be to be to be more extreme. And you know, we we don't see sam donaldson order none senator Henry Jackson from Washington we don't see those anymore the democratic party Andy 36:16 you don't consider a creek sleepy Joe or creepy Joe, whatever they call them to be moderate. Larry 36:22 Well, by the by the emerging standards of today, possibly. But if you look at a senate record, he was by no means a moderate, but what we would consider moderate, you know, his lip, his writings were quite liberal when he started in the Senate, but like, it's like the party is taken an abrupt swing towards towards the left. Now, you know, they're talking about things that Americans not ready to swallow. They're talking about a free college, universal Medicaid, Medicare for All. I mean, we we've we've been vilifying universal health care since since the Affordable Care Act was passed 10 years ago. And I'm for I think, I think that our health care system needs needs to figure out a way to provide basic health care to everyone time for universal health care system. But but but that's doesn't seem to be where the people are now. They they do like apartment and we're getting way off sex offender stuff, but they do. So therefore, what Care Act of the keeping the kids on their policy to their 21. And the pre existing condition, the expansion of the Medicaid population to include target groups that weren't previously eligible. They like certain parts of it. But but I just don't see this extremism, what I consider to be very extreme views the Democratic Party being what's going to carry on election in 2020. I think I think that it's where we're going to, we're going to see an outcome that's not going to be pretty if if the party remains the postures and right now, Andy 37:39 let's move on to a New York Times article talking about the title is it no one feels safe here, life and Alabama's prisons. This looks horrifying, that if I remember reading, right, that there is a particular component of the prison that they've actually moved it behind like a barricaded wall so that the officers have a level of protection. And this looks this looks horrifying as far as not a safe place to be. There was a particular quote that I wanted to that I that I'm remembering now. And I think they interviewed somebody that had a really, really long sentence. And he says, Well, yeah, of course, we're in here to keep us keep the public safe from us. But it's also your duty to keep us safe from each other. And that is clearly not what is happening at this particular place. Larry 38:27 I agree with that liberal mumbo jumbo that will be way incarcerated person you can argue about whether it should be available rehabilitative, or whether it should be punishment, that I'm okay with you having that discussion. But you have an absolute obligation to keep that individual safe. Because you're protecting all the ability for them to protect themselves away from them, you're taking all the ability for them to feed themselves away from them, you're taking their ability to close and medically care for themselves away from them. And if you don't like the expense of keeping people safe, and feeding them and housing them safely, then maybe you ought to consider how many people you walk away. But you have an obligation, we as a society have an obligation to make these institutions safe. And that costs money. And Alabama doesn't like to spend any money on their presence. So southern states really try to keep their cost of running presence low when they roll out a lot of inmates supervision of other inmates which is taught in conformity with American correctional Association standards. And it's not a safe way to operate a prison system. Now, I haven't read a 60 page report but but Andy 39:38 but there are a couple pictures there's one picture with a bunch of little baggies. I don't know if they're illicit drugs, if it's just tobacco, I don't know the answer that and then there's another picture with some nice nice homemade Shanks that people have that's super duper good times when you got to walk around and you have to be an armed have some sort of weapons with you while you travel around the campus to go to shower go to the medical places. Really this is I mean, I get this this again says what we are as a society when we've decided to that these people are basically throw away. But I still would then say Larry, if they have decided to take away all of the money if they've decided to say f you that hey, you did your crime, you deserve the time. Don't put them into some sort of enclosed like war zone. Just Newcomb. I mean, if you're going to be that don't make it cruel. Let it just be done. Larry 40:27 I'm not sure we shouldn't do that. Andy 40:31 I mean, I'm, but I'm just pushing it to the extreme to be like, Look, this is what you're like Otherwise, they say in the article that the first people that get messed with are like the young white people. So okay. So in this equal justice system, somebody gets convicted of some crime, and they get sent into this and they were some kind of like, like, a non violent just go into work doing their thing, but they get down, they end up in this war zone. And it is entirely inverted society than what you would expect. And you are you are not equipped to deal with this, where people are trying to scam you people are trying to be violent with you. People are trying to take your clothes or your money or your store goods, all that stuff. And you there's there's nothing you can do to protect yourself and your hands are tied Larry 41:16 in all of that. Oh, well, I was I was thumbing through the report and overcrowding, as always, always a major contributor to present problems in prison. Because systems break down when you reach your design capacity when you exceed all systems breakdown and with it at our prison. And people don't understand that. And when I say every single thing in prison breaks down when you when you have when you when you have gross overcrowding, medical care breaks down to the extent they have any food service breaks down laundry service breaks down, supervision, the ability to supervise, breaks down, education, what little everything that you try to do in a prison to keep to keep it running, breaks down. And it says that one factor lead to that war by overwhelming violence. overcrowding, Alabama has one of the most overcrowded prison systems in the nation. And 2013, Alabama had a prison rate of 646 per 100,000 residents, the fourth highest in the nation. And according to the their design capacity, the hell's as of the Titans report was written 16,327 prisoners and a system designed to help house 9882 so you're Wow, that's almost double almost Yeah, it's so that that leads to a complete breakdown of and I can assure you these, these facilities are not brand new, because Alabama hasn't bought into into correctional facilities, I can assure you that these things are old, they're they're probably not direct, direct supervision, a lot of are probably not direct supervision, they're probably a linear supervision where there's where there's not line of sight into the students, which lends itself to a whole lot more problems. So so you know, Alabama's gonna have to impose some taxes on themselves? Oh, no, neither, either that or they're going to have to decide to let some people go. And they'll be forced to do it by those big old liberal lifetime appointed federal judges that that are disconnected from the voters because they have lifetime tenure once they're confirmed by the Senate. And it's going to require a probably a decree of the federal court to say that you can't help any more than 9882 or what we have some arbitrary number. And then they'll blame the judges for releasing people. The judges aren't telling anybody they're just telling you can't housing, you know, it's always like what they do is they're just held like Texas, California, you could, you don't have to release assault. All we're doing is telling you that you can't exceed this number for these facilities, you can start building facilities day and night if you want to write and funding the operation, but but they'll blame the federal judges for saying that they have to release people. And then, but but this, this is sad, that the 2019 that we've got a state in our country, thankfully, my state is actually doing a whole lot better job running their prisons, compared to Alabama. But but we have we have such a severe situation going on in that state and probably business day, probably Louisiana as well. I mean, that's just the nature of life of those states. Andy 44:05 And I mean that, you know, this goes along with the same thing, when we should see these constitutional challenges to the registry. They're not telling you what a constitutional registry would be. They're just telling you that this one isn't. And I just say that in parallel to this, they're not saying you have to let these people go. They're just saying you can't put more than X number of people here, how you get to that number by building more or letting people go, it's entirely up to you. Well, and and Larry 44:27 that now, they will tell them like basic standards on medical care, they will impose standards on on square footage per inmate temperatures but becoming an argument and some of the challenges to prison conditions that yield adverse, we talked about that through the through the history of our podcast, we've talked about how bad it is for Texas prisoners and Florida prisoners where they don't believe in middle ad, they can say that you have to keep the temperature to no higher than 82 degrees. And well, that's up to you to figure out how to do it. You can shut the damn thing down. Or you can spend a bunch of money air conditioning, but all we can, but the court can set standards for for for what what constitutes within the cruel Valley, Nicole inhumane conditions of our constitution but but Alabama has had plenty of time to deal with this. Unknown Speaker 45:18 Yeah. So Larry 45:21 they've known for a long time that they're doing what they're doing. And it's it's you look at the staffing levels, you know, that they're having with their low pay, they have extreme staff shortages, and nobody would want to work there. I'm sure the turnover is probably horrendous. Andy 45:36 And it's also due to pay. And yeah, so you end up scraping the bottom of the barrel on both sides of people like I am not going into that war zone for $10 an hour just not doing it. Larry 45:48 Well, some of the people in Alabama Colin right in email, tell us tell us where we're wrong. Because they'll be on to an artist. This report is very scathing of it as Andy 45:59 a developer though, it is ready to be a part of registry matters. Get links at registry matters dot CEO. If you need to be all discreet about it, contact them by email registry matters cast at gmail. com. You can call or text or ransom message to 7472 to 744771. To support registry matters on a monthly basis. Head to patreon. com slash registry matters. Not ready to become a patron. Give a five star review at Apple podcasts or Stitcher or tell your buddies that your treatment class about the podcast. We want to send out a big heartfelt support for those on the registry. Keep fighting without you we can't succeed. You make it possible. And then so this article comes from Wk whitey Kentucky team pleads guilty to killing a registrant this fine young 17 year old named Lance has decided that he wanted to put a set somebody's house on fire and attempt to kill I guess he ended up dead, he did kill the resident. So that's good time. So thank you registry for putting a person in jail for murder. And then we have one less life on the planet. Larry 47:18 Oh, you know, if we only knew the extent of how many people have been harmed physically, including deaths, their their deaths we know about because the person have proclaimed that they did it because of the registry, their deaths that have registrants that we can't say for sure, because the person didn't make the Proclamation. And that's the only way the law enforcement ever say this connection if the person proclaims that they did it because of their on the registry. But there have been so many acts of violence documented against people who are in the civil regulatory scheme. And for some reason, there. I remember the couple and I believe it was South Carolina, both the husband and the wife were killed. Yeah, yo, South Carolina, because we are so we should have scathing condemnation of the vicar of Governor Haley, Nikki Haley. And then she proceeded to get promoted by the president to ambassador to the UN ambassador, but now she's gone. But but but we this, you would think in a compassionate society like we profess to be, you would think that people getting killed because of the bullseye that we've put on them with cause such a shake up in a state capitol, that they would be a demand for something to be done. But not when it's a registered sex offender. It doesn't seem to barely create a ripple. Andy 48:35 Now, no one no one cares. I mean, I mean, the length of this article even speaks to all that the length of the articles, I don't know. 200 words, maybe two paragraphs? Yeah, it's, it's very short, just basically says this person did this this person was this person died. And just bring it up, because likely the person could have found it through other means, but likely because of the registry. The person found it and decided to take law and his own hands, own hands and be judged. The person was out of prison, either on probation. He was on probation pleading guilty in 2013. So he'd been out for six years, we could probably assume that he hadn't committed any other crimes or had done any other kinds of violations, because he'd been out for six years and wasn't wasn't dead or locked up at the time. I guess this happened in 2017. So he'd been out for three or four years at the time. Oh, Larry 49:26 well, he got what he had come into him. Andy 49:28 Right. And we'll just set it in chatty society society probably applause the one that kills a registered rapist or child molester. And I'm telling you, if you go look at this article, you will find comment after comment after comment after comment says, what was wrong? What what what bad deed was done here? Why is this person going to prison? Sounds like a good guy to me. All that? Larry 49:47 Well, we had an incident here we're, we're I don't remember if it was either an arsenal or the state group where we, we had an act of vigilantism, or partial was outside of teen girls window and the was caught in the father and the brother chased him down and beat him almost to the point of death. And they prosecuted the father and he got probation. But the support of the community was for the father. I mean, he had every justification to chase a person down there was peering in his daughter's window and to beat him senseless. Andy 50:18 Seems like there may be other ways to handle that. Larry 50:21 Well, yeah, if we if we if we succumb to that and decide that you can decide to administer your own form of justice, and that you're the judge, jury and executioner. We don't have a society because everybody would just that they would be missing arms and DS and eyes. I mean, it would not be a society that be pretty and although the people applauded that, that is so dangerous to I mean, they should have said no sir You can't do that we we can't justify you. Well, then we had another one. This was even before that. This one listeners can Google elton john Rashard. Yo Andy 51:00 not the elton john but somebody else. Larry 51:01 No, this was the guy who was he he chased down someone who was breaking in his car. He came out pulled it tried to hold him at gunpoint, the guy ran and he ran for quite some distance and and he crossed a major arterial culpa sale Dylan Orchy, and he was on the other side of the sale. And then he was trying to scale a fence, and elton john Rashard shot him off of the top of the fence and killed him. Now, he argued self defense, they pursued him for, I think, the better part of between two and 3000 feet. So he was not defending he was not add danger at the point he was pursuing him. When he shot him off top the fence. It wasn't any danger. he pled guilty that get the prosecutor reduced it because he was hit was such a hero in the community for chasing a person data shooting them dead. The prosecutor played it down to manslaughter. And he had a chance to get him probation. But he told now deceased just three disease judge Murdoch, when he was standing before, after he did the plea to manslaughter. He told the judge that he didn't do anything wrong. He said that that man was busted in my car, and murder I gave him a prison sentence of two or three years very short prison sentence. And then the community got so up in arms that Murdock had to backpedal and reconsider. And he committed the prison sentence to put him on probation. Now can you imagine that chasing someone better part of a half a mile shooting them off the top of the fence and and and and being given probation. And you stand there to finally tell the judge it settles like expressed no remorse whatsoever. He can at least faked it said I'm really sorry. I probably went a little too far. I mean, but he was just as arrogant as could be that I didn't do anything wrong. And Murdoch being the fair guy. He was a splendid reputation for being a judge Berg was sitting there saying what the hell's wrong with this guy doesn't give me anything to hang my head on to give him probation. And and then it gives them like a short prison sentence and then all hell breaks loose loose in the community. Andy 53:11 Right, right. Right, right. Larry 53:14 Yes, I'm seems to be alive and well in this country. Andy 53:17 Yeah, no doubt. No doubt. Yeah, totally. It is. The next article comes from SF gate. I'm assuming that's going to be San Francisco gate. I mean, I guess there's San Francisco, whether they're at the top Amazon's have facial recognition technology is super charging local police. We talk a lot about containing putting putting things in place to contain law enforcement and prosecutors from just using every tool. I don't want to say it that they shouldn't have tools available to them. But this one is decidedly nefarious in that you're asking computers to recognize faces. And only based This is where the things are going to break down and people are going to have a bad time with it. They are trained based on what they learn based on training where you feed it certain kinds of pictures. And there were some maybe as a year ago, there were reports came out where Yeah, it was detecting all the white people very accurately. But when they threw in black people, things went off the rails. And there were very offensive images that came back where animals came back because they weren't trained on those people. If you then train the system, Yeah, Larry 54:28 go ahead. I confess I awesome. I looked over this article, so I don't participate much in it. Andy 54:34 Okay, well, it's right up my alley, because I do some work with machine learning things. And so this one's going to be your Yeah, and but so but if you then take only convicted peoples or mug shots, which are only the people that have engagement with law enforcement, and you train it on those, then the system is then sort of kind of forced to report back people that match it, even though the people may not match. So now you've got police going on wild goose chases, trying to track down people that may not even exist, but they resemble, you know, the person that they have on some sort of camera footage or something like that. And it creates a terrible, terrible precedent that we would let computers determine who we're going to actually like target our investigative apparatus at. And it scares me to no end that this would be coming down the pike and it's cheap. It says that they charged like, like $7 a month to feed it the data and use the computer processing power coming out of Amazon. It's frightening. Larry 55:33 Well, I thought the computers were our answer Andy they could do everything for us. They totally Andy 55:37 can do everything for us. But that doesn't mean they do it better. All and and the expression that we have had running around for whatever, 20 years garbage in garbage out 30 years. I mean, that is totally what this is, if you feed it garbage data, if it's biased in any way. If it's not. If it's if it's not natural, honest data, then then the computer just gives you back what you what you gave it. Larry 56:04 Well, there was a comment here from Washington County Public Defender's Office. So it doesn't look like the PDS and in favor of it. Andy 56:15 In this particular one in Oregon, where the major majority of the article comes from, they are like a guy on staff there has written it took them a couple three weeks to write the software, they started feeding and stuff, and they just started going to town and trying to match people across it. It go it's the exact same thing where if we put a GPS on somebody's car without permission, you know, to violate your fourth amendment that, hey, know, you're going to have to go put boots on the ground and follow that person. You can't just use all the technology to follow people around. Larry 56:46 Well, I'm glad to hear that you're admitting there's some limits limitations on the ability of technology to solve our problems that Andy 56:53 I'm that I'm going to push that like, I think you're being a little silly. I think technology will solve the vast majority. I just don't think we should use it for this. I think you could use it. You know, in certain in certain kinds of cases, I think that you would be able to turn this thing on, but I don't think you should do it just indiscriminately across, hey, we have all these crime sprees running around, let's just, let's just go run it on everybody walking everywhere at all times and try and match them. You have a huge Fourth Amendment problem there with you should be allowed to move freely, I guess even if a first amendment that you're being watched, and you shouldn't be tracked like that by the government Larry 57:33 at all. You have no rights. Rob's in public, though. Andy 57:37 Do you have the right to not be surveilled and public to by the by the government? Larry 57:42 Oh, sure. No, you have no right to privacy whatsoever in public. So every retailer, every law enforcement agency, everybody can surveil everybody in public. Andy 57:54 But the survey, like if you walk into the store, and that's the stores property of the surveillance, then that's, I mean, I'm sure they would willingly give it over to law enforcement. But law enforcement does shouldn't doesn't necessarily have access to it all on the spot. Right? And so it would just be you walking down the street or driving down the street, and so forth. And then how long do they keep those records, that's another conversation that comes up all the time. Larry 58:18 So they're getting very inexpensive to keep up for. Andy 58:22 Especially with cloud storage, you can buy storage just for good Jillian's a years, and you can store all the data all in places all the time, Larry 58:29 I saw some statistic that I can't begin to recite. But something like the data we've created in last three years, with equals all that had been created in the history of, of data accumulation up till they ended up having to three years off, it might be the last five or seven years. But you know, the recent in the recent few years and last decade, what we've created is just so astronomical compared to what had been created up to that point. Andy 58:56 Yep, absolutely. I mean, there's hundreds and hundreds and hundreds hours of video uploaded to YouTube every minute, which is astonishing. Larry 59:05 Well, I tell people just a little period dorsal with, with Cloud Storage being so cheap, we're storing and scanning everything. We were just a tiny blip compared to comparatively, but but we're keeping everything so little tiny and our soul can do it. Can you imagine what what Andy 59:24 Walmart can do? Absolutely. Moving on to an article from Nashville Public Radio. After a year after state audit lawmakers questioned whether a Middle Tennessee prison has improved. This sounds very similar to the article we just covered from the New York Times about a prison in Alabama. This one specifically pokes at core civic, which is the successor to CCA and just just more of the same sort of thing where they're not giving patients get not giving inmates access to medical, they're not necessarily they have yard call. And the the situation is just, it's just bad for people that end up over there. These aren't necessarily the worst of the worst of the worst of the worst, these are people that just maybe they bounced too many checks that became a crime. You know, maybe they had some small amounts of drugs, and we put them in these places that are really, really violent places. Larry 1:00:19 Well, I know I, I pick on private presence from time to time. And and I, I continue to believe that that's something we probably should not have privatized, my state went crazy, I think we still have the highest percentage of, of our overall system under private management, I think we're in the 40s terms of percent of our total prison bed base. And, and I just do not believe that. I don't believe that the government does everything perfect. But I certainly do not believe a profit motive is is appropriate. And what we're doing with presidents I, I'm not sure that that I can ever be sold on that. But Andy 1:00:56 I agree with you. I had I had a I don't remember when it was but I but going to the idea of what incentivizes people, if you, you know, raw capitalism people will do, they'll dump waste places, you know, and just based on a pure profit motive, well, if the motive and the product of a private prison is the product is warehousing people, then they're going to do everything in their power to reduce their expenses. And their second largest expense would be inmates after their HR department, handling their employee packages. So then they're going to cut down on food, they're going to everything's going to go to shit. And these are human beings that we're dealing with. And yes, we don't like these people, because they've done something wrong. But that doesn't mean we should treat them like garbage. Larry 1:01:40 Well, there'll be somebody who write or call in and say that you could figure out a way to measure performance different than what we do. I mean, you could possibly invent a system that would reward the product president operators for success, like we do with our vehicles, we we've we've looked at trying to figure out how to move people from, from public schools that are not performing into into environments that where they can do better. And if we could devise an incentive system that would incentivize these private prisons to turn out a better product and what they take yet, but right now that there's no such incentive structure that I'm aware of, it seemed like an incentive is just the opposite to turn a profit for core civic shareholders. And seems like they cut more corners city with the state's do, which in the case of Alabama will be very tough. But Andy 1:02:36 I don't know how we I don't know how we dig our way out of this whole layer. Larry 1:02:40 Oh, we're gonna have to learn that things that we want in society cost money, we're going to start imposing taxes ourselves. I think I'll send you an article last week Few days ago that showed how he did that the the amount of GDP, which stands for gross domestic product, on the federal level continues to decline. We talked about how we're overtaxed, but the share of the economy going to federal taxes has dropped from 19 20% down to 1817. Now, this year, that is expected to drop down to 16%. Now, of course, now the deficit is widening because of that, because the expenditure side is not dropping, the you know, the expense, the Spanish or side is remaining at 19 20% of GDP. So so the gap is widening, we're going to have to decide if we want to do all these things, including locking up large numbers of people, we may have to impose a little tax on ourselves. Andy 1:03:33 If we can take a teeny little detour. Since we're on this subject, then i have i've heard recently about all like the different tax preparation software packages lobby to make it so that the there's no easy way to file your taxes. However, they do. There is something in the law that says if you make less than something of $70,000, there is a way for you to free file but they can't market for it. They can't really announced or anything like that I just happened to hear about it because someone was covering the subject. But where I want to go with this is the grover norquist, they want taxes to be painful, so that you will resist paying them so that we will force ourselves to keep spending keep taxation as low as possible. Because if it were just some like the index card idea where, hey, this is how much you made sign here. If everything's okay, and you sent it back and tax day just was never even a thing. Then that whole argument for like they could just tax us into oblivion because no one really, really care and no one paying attention to it. Larry 1:04:34 I'm not sure I completely follow my Grover's not somebody I hold in high esteem. And I think it's silly to take a no tax increase pledge, circumstances of life change, the economy changes the needs of the nation, the needs of the state change. And the demographics of states are different. And you may have you may have different needs and one state over the other. So So tech, they need to be justifiably higher. And at the national level, we have an aging population, though, you know, the big old boom of baby boomers are hitting the part of where they're going to be drawing down a lot of benefits. And those those benefits have not been adequately really provided for, we may have to impose some additional taxation on ourselves to pay for these benefits. To beat grover norquist is not someone to hold in very high esteem, because just simply say that we will never increase taxes. You're up all the time about our roads, our roads in New Mexico, we've we've got one of the lowest gasoline fuel taxes of the nation, it has not been increased since 1993. And very few people can tell me that inflation has not eroded the purchasing power of those dollars that we collect that inflation eroded for over 25 years. And it's Elvis obsessed. Yeah. Andy 1:05:52 And I was gonna say and then the cars are that much more fuel efficient now. So you have a double edged sword got Larry 1:05:56 the double whammy of the of the of the proving fuel efficiency, which is keeping your your consumption at a flatline and you've got the constant erosion of inflation of the dollars, it's silly to say that, that we can continue to maintain a high quality first rate infrastructure if we don't impose any revenue streams that will generate the revenue to support that. And and it we and we talked about it putting 10 cents a gallon gasoline tax. But what still kept us in the lowest of the nation. And and all hell broke loose about what all he does all life is we know it would be such a disproportionate thing on the poor when I tell people now you just look at your gas receipts, if you say baby from December of 2018. And you look at your gasoline receipts, and may, April and May of 2019. And you'll see you're paying approximately $1 a gallon more now than you were four months ago. And I don't see an evaporation number of cars on the street. All life is we know it hasn't ended. But all of those dollars, that's 10 times what we were talking about putting on a gasoline tax 10 times as much gasoline has gone up in four months. It hasn't ended all life as we know it. All that money has gone to two big oil to the Middle Eastern producers. And we don't mind giving the money to big oil. We don't mind mobile. We don't mind Exxon, and we don't mind. All these companies that we don't mind. The sheikhdom so getting, but for some reason know that we don't want to spend a dime on having safe bridges and smooth streets, and I'm pontificating because I don't understand that about us as a people. Why are we so reluctant to invest in ourselves? We want to be competitive economically. We want Well, you can't be competitive if your infrastructure is falling apart. Andy 1:07:45 Yeah, we can't move commerce around if the truck can't get down the road. Larry 1:07:48 Yeah, so that oil patch down in south eastern New Mexico where there's the door boom, they're saying that very thing they're saying for goodness sakes, we need Infrastructure Improvement down here. Yeah, Andy 1:07:58 yeah, those trucks like you know the weight and to the frequency of them would destroy a poorly constructed road. Larry 1:08:07 So but but yes, the dollar increase since December I as far as I know there hasn't been a market decline a number of vehicles robbing and and certainly as I can't tell that all life as we know it has ended but but that died was going to end all life as we know it. Andy 1:08:24 There's a senator there's a senator in in Florida named Perry Thurston. And I just love what he said in this next article, he says lawmakers find themselves in the position of having to implement a constitutional change initiated by citizens because we're an ass backward state. Adding that Florida is one of only three states that does not automatically restore voting rights to felons who are no longer incarcerated or have completed probation. Republicans don't want to make it easier for felons to get their voting rights back. Thurston said, adding this is the last thing that they want to do. This article comes from LA com. And I guess it's like, I don't know how they have a whole bunch of properties la calm, and this is the daily business review felons voting rights cause divides and closing days of their legislative process there in Florida. Larry 1:09:08 Well, I keep saying that, I think that the people who oppose that I think that they're being misguided, I tend to see a lot more conservatism. I think that they would actually pick up votes by restoring felons. I don't think that it's going to be the panacea for the Democratic Party, that they're conservatives fear, I think it's going to be just the opposite. I think it's going to be a panacea for Republicans. So right, but it says Attorney General Ashley booty a republican opposed to constitutional men, but to begin with, so Andy 1:09:37 I don't I don't get the idea of preventing people from voting there. I just don't I just don't get it. I mean, unless you're really that kind of person that says, Well, we don't want the people from the other side of the tracks voting, because that'll mess up what we have. I mean, that's the mentality. Exactly. shitty, shitty attitude. Larry 1:09:58 So well. But in there, it makes sense. That when, when you look at it from looking from their perspective, all right, we're paying all the taxes Andy people who are on our benefits, they don't pay any taxes. So we're paying the property taxes, we're paying the income taxes we're paying, and these people are going in that it's easy to vote to impose taxes when you don't pay any. So therefore, it's kind of resent, but of that they get an equal say, and the taxation policies of the expenditure policies of society. And yet they don't pay any attention to them. It makes perfect sense. Of course Andy 1:10:37 it does. And that's why there are logical and logical fallacies and cognitive biases and that would be motivated reasoning. You're working backwards. Larry 1:10:45 Yeah. Well, I remember big, big, big, big in Atlanta native that, that they had an old dilapidated Atlanta Public Library back in the 70s, they voted what was considered a large bond referendum to build a brand new modern library. And they the the, the city of Atlanta was majority black at that time. But the bulk of the revenue came from the northern part of Atlanta, which is still the way Atlanta is today. If you live in the city of Atlanta, you got anybody you're going to be a little part of Atlanta, it hasn't changed. And the the an elected leader and I can't I'm not gonna say which one it was because I truly don't remember but he he was African American, and he said, thanks to the voters of Atlanta. We were going to have a new library at a light official, he said and thanks to our taxes is going to be paid for for you. But I'm saying from from the from their perspective, having people vote, they're not debt contributors. In fact, neil bortz used to say no to his his talk show, he said that he believed even if you weren't an ex net tax payer, if you read that tax consumer, you should not vote. They'll board said that for years. somewhere behind that makes sense. Andy 1:12:02 Gotcha. I'm totally gonna have to let you drive the bus because during the pre show, you started explaining to this to me and my eyes started to roll in the back of my head. So this is the legal intelligence or another property of law com spanning your conviction tossed by federal court over Jerry Sandusky, john Willis station. up, go with it, Larry. Larry 1:12:23 Well, I tell you, I didn't give it the proper prep I should have done because I couldn't log in and pull the opinion of because I had not gotten the credentials from our executive side. So I didn't I didn't I didn't see the 42 page of pigeon metal in the final hour of prep. But I was able to do a do a quick read of it. And it's just a fascinating read for you legal junkies out there. Hank, you're one of them. You'll love it. But for legal junkies out there this is a fascinating read because for those who don't remember the name, Graham Spanier, he is a associated with Jerry Sandusky and and he was the president of the of the university. And he got canned and all that controversy back with Sandusky, Sandusky and he got convicted of a misdemeanor offense. And the the the the issue is pretty straightforward that they they convicted him of a misdemeanor. That was an ex post facto offense. But what makes it fascinating is how he got to this end, he he takes his case to trial rather than pleading and he gets convicted by jury. He goes through all the appeals within the state of Pennsylvania before he can even begin to think about going into federal court on a state conviction. And, and he jumped through all the hoops to get the federal court by exhausted that there's a requirement under the anti terrorism effective death penalty active we can thank the conservatives for 1995 for passing and putting on the President's desk. The hoops are it's like threading a needle to get to challenge a state court conviction. So he he jumps through all the hoops and he gets nowhere and state court. And then he files this federal habeas petition. And, and it went exceedingly fast for him from the time he filed it until the time the decision made. It was less than two months, which I if I'm reading this right, I'm just shocked at how they how it can move so fast. But But he he prevails because the the state changed the law in 2007. And he had his conduct he was convicted of the child endangerment the statute. diversion that would have been effect for his conduct occurred in 2001. And the state's continued to say that, that there's no problem here. And the federal magistrate judges will sure that's a problem there several problems here. Number one, the the expo cycle calls. So so he manages to get his conviction overturned. And of course, the state has already announced that they're going to appeal and their first appeal is to the to the district judge, this is just a magistrate judge, which is one level below the federal district judge who is appointed by the president and has a article three, a protection. This magistrate judge doesn't have article three protection. They're appointed by the court by the judges themselves. They apply they get appointed to serve as a major federal magistrate judge. But but this is just just a fascinating read that that that this man fought this thing this Mr. Mayor conviction. And he's one in a in a venue where you have to thread the needle so narrowly, and he managed to thread the needle and get get get a magistrate judge to see his arguments. So how coach would incredible they are endangered the welfare of children. That's what he said addicted up. Andy 1:15:57 All right, some big propeller head legal tough there. Larry 1:16:01 Well, it looks like it's only for the legal junkies, who really the people who don't understand the nuances of the of the limitations on federal Vegas, they'll they'll have a reaction, which is not the appropriate one, they'll say, Well, there you go. Again, there's one justice system for people who have my name, one who doesn't. And there's, there's some truth in that span, you're probably has no money. And he's been able to go through all the exhaustive requirements of every appeal, he could do under state under the state of Pennsylvania. And he had the money to keep those appeals going. And then he had the money to go into federal court to file this atheist petition. So there's some truth in that. But it's a straightforward argue, but the law that was in effect at the time he allegedly committed this crime. That's what he has to be held accountable to not what they changed Six years later. Andy 1:16:50 Right. And I'm sure that many of our people, you know, in our circle, they can attest to that, that you It took 10 years before the charges came out. And you are charged based on what the crime was with the sentencing and stuff was 10 years ago. So that that is directly in line with what we would already expect. Larry 1:17:11 Oh, well, on page seven, I highlighted it says it says having challenges conviction in Pennsylvania State court spend your span your file the instant papers corpus petition on March 22 2019, this was released. Let's see the date of this is April 30. Now when you talk about filing something on March 22, 2019, Unknown Speaker 1:17:33 but Larry 1:17:33 that's a nice that's a typo and met 2018 I don't see how the world all the responses could be filed. Because the state has a chance to respond. They usually say that they don't have enough time to ask for an extension. And then the petitioner can can reply in support of the original petition. And then the magistrate judge has to review it. And so I can save unless that's a typo, which it could be, I can't imagine something. But it says that that that response was founded April 19. And then here we've got a decision just so quickly. I know it's it's corruptions what it is Andy Andy 1:18:11 that's a big, totally good big also aliens. Larry 1:18:14 It I've never seen anything move this fast. So but but like the highlight a few things, individuals seeking happiness relief on page eight, it talks about that you have to exhaust your remedies available in state court before you can seek federal court. So highlighted that for the for the legal junkies, and then the exhaustion requirement is really important, because if you don't do that, the Federal habeas judge has to dismiss your complaint for failure, check dissolves, and you have to go back into state court and try to exhaust your your, your claims, and then I highlighted some more stuff on 14, page 14, that explains more about federal atheists, like say it for industrial jacket is probably won't appeal to you. But if you do like reading the nuances of what you have to do in federal habeas, this will be a fascinating read for for folks, because you're going to send me what you've highlighted. I'm going to do that. I should probably highlight a little bit more later, but at least I'll get you started. So when you when you distribute the podcast, people can see what I'm getting all palpitations about palpitations, Andy 1:19:25 I will accept that as being a word to food, let it be known from this point forward that palpitations is now what word Larry said so. Larry 1:19:33 So But yeah, I don't think I love it. Andy 1:19:36 So I will is like salivating in the chat talking about different things going on with what you're saying. So yeah, will is definitely excited about it as well. Larry 1:19:46 So Andy 1:19:48 I don't know what to do with this one. I'm I This one is an icky thing. But I also I don't understand why we would make this a legal but there's a bill moving through the Florida Senate. And maybe this didn't I don't know, I think this past I don't know if the government will sign it. But if you have anything. If you have child like dolls, or in possession or sex dolls or anything like that they are making it illegal for you to be in possession of these things. And I'm really conflicted on this. Larry 1:20:21 I took a gander at that. And I don't think this will withstand constitutional scrutiny when it really is filed. I really don't I I've got to be very surprised if Andy 1:20:32 I bet it's just too damn lucky. It's achy, for sure. But I don't know how you could stop someone from having sex with a doll in the privacy of their own home. I don't see what crime you could create it of that. Larry 1:20:44 Well, well, but but but a line 41 you're looking at the green underline, it says no matter obscene. That's just way too vague. Okay, what the hell is obscene? Andy 1:20:57 Yeah, that's totally subjective to what you determine going to be obscene. Larry 1:21:00 So I think I think the ACLU is probably going to attach themselves to this if the governor signs that I think is this is just one of the ones that made to the governor. I think it did, right. Andy 1:21:10 I believe so. And Jen and chat says it passed both waiting on governor to sign it. And she's not positive. She's just speculating that it is. Larry 1:21:17 Yeah, I think this is something that's waiting on the governor but but like that, I think this thing's gonna have real problems. How Andy 1:21:24 does it'll make it and then it'll immediately be challenged? Larry 1:21:27 Well, I don't know if immediately because nobody ever has any money. But I'm assuming that if this comes to the attention of the ACLU, and usually the ACLU, at least in my state has a lobbying presence of the capital, they probably already aware of this. And, and in our state, they would have encouraged it not passed. And, but but if if this is signed by the governor, I would hope for a challenge. I would anticipate a challenge because it's so horrible. Andy 1:21:54 Right? So it was that one was that's good times. Larry 1:21:58 It was a substitute bill, if you look up to top their live, if they use the same system, we do it says CES for sb 6160. So that generates committee substitute for for Senate Bill 160. So the question is the original introduced copy? Was it worse than this? And that they try to tone it down? Or did this get like the international Megan's Law? Did it get worse as it went along? You know, having not living in Florida not following it? I don't know if this thing got worse as it went through? Or if they if they actually tried to? told the beach down before it went through this. What is the substitute bill better than the original bill? That would be listed for for the person in chat? question, if they were following it is any better than what was originally produced? Because again, I didn't do the research on that before before going live? I don't I didn't look at the original introduced copy. Andy 1:22:46 So so will is channeling his inner learning goes, Well, we can't have these sick perverts with child sex dolls living out their gross fantasies. That's just nasty. You think you could say it just like that? Larry 1:23:00 Can't help that? Andy 1:23:03 Well, let's move on to our final article, as far as I know, unless you're going to throw something in there last second. This is our favorite governor of Virginia, Ralph Ralph Northam. It's hard to say I won't sign another mandatory minimum sentence bill into law. And here's why details all of the challenges with all the mandatory minimums of taking away the discretion of the judges and that they would have intimate details of what's going on with the individual in the case and what they deem they are judges, right, they should be able to like judge what kind of sentence would be most effective. And so he says he's not going to sign any more laws like that. Larry 1:23:41 Well, and we will see if the people of Virginia appreciate that stance, he's a, he's a democrat, we've got a similar situation down in Louisiana with john Bel Edwards. He's saying I'm sick of all this stuff. And he's pushing back. And we'll see if this is political suicide won't wait. Andy 1:23:59 We will for sure. I do have a question for you. Do you know how many countries I I am reading through this thing this morning at a coffee shop and I came across something that just jumped out at me as it could just be a typo. But then I'm looking at it as being the Washington Post. And I would put a certain amount of credibility on what they say to be true. Gentlemen, countries there on the United States, Larry, I mean, not in the United States, Jesus, I just I just pulled a three countries of Mexico, do you know many countries there are in the world. Larry 1:24:27 I don't care that number of tip of my head. Andy 1:24:30 As far as I knew, and I verified it, there's 195. and South Sudan is the most recently added country, when the when the war torn country split apart. At the end of a paragraph towards the top, it says that is the highest incarceration rate out of 222 countries ranked by the world prison brief. I'm having a really hard time squaring the math of 195 to 222. I don't know what that means. Larry 1:24:54 And less or less or less. I know how you define a country. The Vatican is is could be defined as a country but but I don't I don't know. But whether it's 222, or whether it's 197. The US is always at the top of the list. Andy 1:25:07 We are by a long shot. So even if you hear thunder, we have just decided to start having like the heavens have opened up and it's raining like massively and thunder and lightning. But at the at the end of 2016. Larry 1:25:20 What if you were at our hideaway studios, you would not be having this. Andy 1:25:24 This is correct. If I was in my ne incognito studio, this would not be a problem. I'm Larry 1:25:29 talking about the hideaway. What about us? Andy 1:25:31 Oh, yes, that one where it's like there's a sound studio? Yes, right. But at the end of 2016, the United States at 655 people in prison for every hundred thousand adults, compared to a world prison population of 145 per 100. That's like six, it's five times higher than the other nations. It's ridiculous how many people we have locked up? Larry 1:25:56 Well, I did that presentation a few years ago at an arsenal conference in Dallas and I and then I did the variations of the states. And I stood in conservative Texas. And I said now y'all take big pride, good, proud about how much smarter southerners are than those damn liberal do gooders. Awesome. Now let's take a look at this chart here. And I showed the southern states were just off the charts compared to even the high rates of the United States. But you have disparate is like from the lower incarceration rates. It's almost a five time differential or the high rate. And I said so I don't know. But the problem is, I said either southerners are inherently more criminal, or these day I'm liberal do gooders are doing it differently. And I can't explain it and neither could the people in Texas. But but but but in this country, we have vastly different rates of incarceration among the states vastly different. Andy 1:26:44 Right. And I remember when you did that something similar used FBI statistics there. And in Georgia and someone's head started spinning around like you lie almost. Unknown Speaker 1:26:54 So Larry 1:26:55 well, it's one of those things where the statistics, we have to read that the statistics are valid. And some people when they don't like the statistics, they claim, but I use the same statistics that that we rely on for asking for for for crime fighting allocations. Those are the FBI statistics to the Uniform Crime statistics. I just use what everybody's sites to me, I don't know what else to do. But But yes, I do remember that. You've told me that that person was constipated over the presentation that I did. Andy 1:27:26 I watched his expression he was very, very upset with with you making that claim? Larry 1:27:31 Well, the reason why I was upset is because the crime rate has been going down for 25 years and most of the station, while we've been ever increasing the amount of resources we've been devoting to law enforcement, and to prisons, and locking up more and more people. And of course, you can argue that the crime rates going down, because we've locked up more people. You could make that argument. But But I was just making the point that at some point, the crime rate goes down, down, down, down, avichal, you probably start cutting back on the number of people you have Alex needing to fight fighting crime, because it's some point, if you've got half the crime, you had a 1995. And you've got the same number of people working. Are they as busy as they were in 1995? Andy 1:28:13 Right, right. Well, that's all I have, Larry, but you don't we're going to do now. We're going to thank our top patrons. Are you ready to do that? Larry 1:28:24 are we are we going to do it? We're going to be on here our hours. Why don't you go first? Did we just hit our thousand patron this week, Andy 1:28:35 close to it we are we are like in an I shot range there. It's right on the horizon. Larry 1:28:40 So so we are deeply grateful to Thomas, Justin, Mike, porous, and Dave. And then also Andy 1:28:49 Gerald, Suzanne, Hank, Patty, and Michael. These are the top 10 patrons, I challenge all of you to try and beat them as being the top patrons. And thank you to all of our patrons. And also just thank you to all of our listeners, our numbers are doing really well. I'm pleased with it. And so how can people reach out to us? They're Larry 1:29:08 very, very carefully. Because if you don't do it carefully, you may get in trouble. It's possible. Yes, you could, you could reach out to us by going to our website, our registry matters dot CEO. That's one way, right? Yes, it is. Or you could call and I love phone call. Just try to keep them short enough to where they can be played. But 7472 to 74477. Or you can send us an email which they get screened by our executive producer. And that's registry matters. cast@gmail.com registry matters Andy 1:29:50 forward almost every one of them to you too, by the way. Larry 1:29:53 So and then you can you can become the best way to support us as tech become a patron as little as $1 per month, I think that says is as low as it goes. But it is tried. We're trying to reach that magic 100 threshold. But it just seems like a nice round number though, doesn't it? Andy 1:30:14 It does for sure. Larry 1:30:16 And if that wraps up this, I want to tell anyone who listens to this podcast, who happened to have been on the dorsal inaction call, where I forgot to pick the winners. The winners were picked by the randomness of the computer drop as your contestant number and I reached out to everybody who won and we actually were awarded a third prize, and I called everyone who won. And oddly enough, this is the first time ever, ever have three people I called all three people answered their phone. Andy 1:30:50 What? Who answers phones? Larry 1:30:53 I was shocked. And and that what made it odd is I had no idea who's calling. Because I the only information you were able to provide me was the phone number that they entered from when they text their phone, you know, from their phone. So totally did it. So yeah. So so I'm calling people, I'm going to answer. I say who I am. And I'm calling about the arsenal and action. But I have no idea if I've got the right person. And so I say what can I ask them I'm speaking about it's kind of awkward, because you did we should know who you're calling when you call somebody. Andy 1:31:26 Right? Unknown Speaker 1:31:28 So, Larry 1:31:29 but everyone has been awarded their prizes. And we apologize for the omission of me not announcing in the third hour that we were warned that that was my plan. We're going to pick two numbers and third hour, I don't totally forgot. Andy 1:31:43 Yep. That's how it goes man, sometimes that that being 200, and whatever years old you are, that causes a challenge for you sometimes. Larry 1:31:52 So and the people who want one of them was extremely grateful because he was having trouble finding his registration. So he said it's gonna make it a lot easier for me as a graduate student to be able to get to the conference almost got to come. But this is a this is a great thing to hear. Andy 1:32:09 Awesome. That's good news. Well, that's all I got Larry. And Larry 1:32:14 and then we should promote an arsenal conference, don't you think we're getting close to a month out? It's today's today's before, it's four weeks, right? Unknown Speaker 1:32:22 Four weeks from yesterday, Larry 1:32:24 is June 7 through ninth and actually the meet and greet for the socialization is the evening of the six but it's in Houston. And attendance is looking fantastic. The lineup is looking fantastic for the for the presentations and got a lot of fun with with a prize. What are they called the raffle and the live auction and things that they're going to be doing. And it's a great opportunity. If you want to find out more about what does it not normal conference.org I never can keep these things right. Andy 1:32:59 This conference, Larry 1:33:00 conference normal.org conference dot.org. But yes, and and the, the discounts are going to soon expire for the early bird and the hotel block. Special rate that we have that includes breakfast for to a breakfast bar, a hot breakfast with fruit, not just not just a continental breakfast, but a very nice hot breakfast that's included for $104. As of a couple days ago, if you don't get into that group rate in that block of people, the rack rate was $125 for those same nights, and that does not include the breakfast bar. So if you think you're going to come you better book your room before the 15th at the end of the 15th of the block expires. Andy 1:33:47 You think we'll be able to get any of the normal people on to do a quick little five minute thing on the podcast to Larry 1:33:53 to promote it. And I'm sure we could if we ask we could get to chair maybe even the executive director she might be lurking out there. Andy 1:34:00 She might be. But we'll save that for maybe next week and the week after the end. We'll we'll get some people on to promote the the conference. Oh, well, I Larry 1:34:09 think I did a decent thumbnails promotion just now. Andy 1:34:13 I think you did do but Larry 1:34:15 but we'll do it again and again. And again. We want people to take advantage of this. We're not as heavily on legal with this year as we have been in previous conferences we're doing. We're not doing as much legal but there'll be plenty of legal they'll be they'll be stuff there for everybody. Gotcha. Andy 1:34:30 Well, cool, Larry. That's all I got. And with that, I bid you adieu and I hope you have a great rest of the weekend. My security cameras going bonkers with all the lightning going off. It's pretty interesting. Oh, Larry 1:34:42 well. All right. Take care. Andy 1:34:45 Bye. Unknown Speaker 1:34:48 Thank you for joining us here at FYI P and we hope you will join us again on our next broadcast. Transcribed by https://otter.ai