Andy  0:00  
registry matters is an independent production. The opinions and ideas here are that of the hosts and do not reflect the opinions of any other organization. If you have a problem with these thoughts FYP recording live from FYP Studios east and west layer. We are back in our home places transmitting across the internet. This is Episode 96 of registering matters. How's it going?

Larry  0:22  
I guess I'm still surviving. I'm still still recovering from my trip.

Andy  0:27  
Your 10 days, gallivanting across the United States.

Larry  0:31  
Yeah, I was down there with you people in the Promised Land of Georgia. You people a

Andy  0:36  
any any highlights that you want to cover. Were there any significant meetings that you attended,

Larry  0:41  
did attend a meeting of Georgia RSL? Well, it was a good turnout.

Unknown Speaker  0:47  
There were 25 people, I think, as I counted,

Larry  0:49  
yeah, yeah, I think that was a pretty good turnout. And we had had a nice meeting and an echo chamber.

Andy  0:54  
It was it was spectacular. It was it was um, there's a there's a room in, is it the White House, it's the whisper, maybe that's in Congress, then you can stand on opposite corners, whisper. And you can hear on the other side. That's how this room was?

Larry  1:10  
Well, it wasn't my selection I had selected. Go over that. Guys, you guys didn't want to be there.

Unknown Speaker  1:20  
I had nothing to do with.

Andy  1:24  
All right, we have a gigantic amount of content. And before we dive into it, though, we have Brenda Jones joining us. She is the executive director of nozzle. And she attended one of the days of the hearing of Galen Bachmann and the civil commitment case. And I'll let you to go through a quick five or so minutes summary of of where things are, where we stand and all that. Welcome bread. Well, howdy, thank

Larry  1:49  
you, Brenda. The the issue has been talked about on this podcast, I can't tell you which issue which episode number but we've talked about civil commitment and and our disdain for this process that that takes place. After people serve their time, they magically become in need of mental health care. And they get locked away in some some cases actually another prison facility but but something that resembles a little bit of treatment. And this is a case of of a person who, who this is the second attempt by the state of Virginia to come at him. And he has a qualifying sexual offense. But they already had their trial 15 years ago to try to commit him and then without, without committing another qualifying or they call it predicate finance. Without that without having committing another fence. They're going after a second bite at the apple. And and can they do that? Absolutely. They can do that until they're stopped and Brenda attended one day of the two week trial that's allotted for his commitment. So let's, let's hear a brief synopsis of what you observed. Sure.

Unknown Speaker  2:55  
Well, the day I went, the it was the second day of what's going to be a 10 days worth of hearings. And they were laying out evidence the state had pretty much the entire day, and spent the entire day laying out all of the actually brought in all the witnesses that would have been at Galen original trial in 2003, for which he was convicted and served his six and a half years. And they brought in former victims and former people involved with the issue the investigator who entrapped him and you know, caught him chatting, etc, etc, etc, about all those people and questioned, cross examined, and read chat logs that he had made and all that stuff. So it was it was very emotional, very intense, and there clearly setting up a picture of a person who's out of control and who's not going to be capable of controlling his actions. So it got mean it did didn't look good. And they've spent, I also spoke with the gallons mother, whose course been attending all the hearings, checked in with her today. And she also she said pretty much this entire week has been taken up with with witnesses for the state. Just a couple of people, I think yesterday, one of whom is heavily pregnant, and they were worried that she was going to pop right there on the stand. So they did have like a couple of hours worth of the defense bringing a couple of people on. So that's what we're seeing.

Larry  5:01  
Well, Brenda, didn't didn't Norful release a statement dealing with what was what the organization's position?

Unknown Speaker  5:07  
Yeah, we sure did. We put a statement out and the focus there, as I know, you are fond of saying but was that we were pointing out that the state has already tried Galen, and found, you know, and not not only for the original offense, but whether or not he needed to go into civil commitment, there was a trial for that. The jury acquitted him at that time. And yet, because of basically because of a parole violation, they're taking that opportunity, probation violation, I think actually, they're they're taking the opportunity to come back and try them again. Apparently, this is something that happens regularly in the state of Virginia, the state can keep bringing it back, you can get tried multiple times.

Larry  6:03  
And when you say that you made a civil commitment that this was not the underlying case of his guilt or innocence from 2003. This is the attempt to commit him. So

Unknown Speaker  6:13  
that is apparently what supposed to be happening right now is another attempt to commit him, but I am no legal person. But I sat in that courtroom and it sounded like they were trying to get victim again, it was just they were bringing all the people out that would have been able to

Larry  6:31  
look as bad as I possibly can. And it looks like the judge has been very accommodating to that in terms of ruling on emotions. He's excluded anything.

Unknown Speaker  6:41  
Yeah, the defense we're saying we don't think that should be allowed. It's not I don't remember what the term is. rez studios gotta get that anywhere close. You got it. Right. You know, they kept bringing that up and saying we don't think this should be allowed. But the judge said, Forget, allow it. So every time they bring another one witness up, they defense was stand up again and say just just registering they were were objecting to this, the judge said yeah, about the resume to kata overruled, that, you know, they continue, and then the next one would come up and they do it again.

Larry  7:13  
And the sad thing about was that, and his pre trial motions, Caleb's pre trial motion motions, he wanted to bring up that he had already been through a civil process. So the state had failed. And the court denied him the opportunity to bring up but yeah, they got to bring up everything, everything all over again. This case will unless by some miracle, he's not committed this case will be an appellate case. And I anticipate that Marshall will be attempting to involve itself into it. We will deal with that when that when the when the appeal comes. But but this is so important, because if you can continue to try to convince someone you'll eventually succeed. And in closing, I'll say that, yeah, anytime there is a second trial, it always works to the state's benefit as seldom works to the defense's benefit. Because if you have a mistrial, of course, as a defense attorney, you're just excited as you can be that that you your your client did not get acquitted. I mean, convicted, excuse me, you're, you're you're excited that your client didn't get convicted. But the state gets to come back after they pulled the jurors, after they figure out what the sticking point was that they get to put on a better trial the second time around, and eventually wears down. Because eventually, except for a few people, you run out of money. And these trials are very expensive. So you go through a second third trial, and the state eventually gets it right. So the state now knows what it didn't do in the first civil commitment. And they're making sure they don't spare any resource to to convict him or to commit him I should say, this time around.

Unknown Speaker  8:48  
Yeah. And I will say they definitely were not sparing expense. They brought in. One of the one of the witnesses came all the way from Seattle. Another fellow was floating from New York. couple of guys from my thing, I don't know, somewhere out in the Midwest, all flown in for their, their moment on the witness stand to share to they in between those people were flown in on the state Stein, they were, you know, done. The hotel was on this date Stein, I don't know if they were paid to do it. But you know, their costs are covered.

Larry  9:25  
There generally is a small witness fee, but But usually, that's not the deciding factor is all those other expenses. But the state, the state of Virginia is fully intent on committing this ban. And there will be an appeal if they succeed, because I can't imagine as well connected as he is he's gonna say, Well, I guess I won fair and square, of course, he's gonna appeal,

Unknown Speaker  9:45  
they will appeal. And I did at least briefly connect with Galen, attorneys, and let them know that, you know, NASA was interested in being involved.

Larry  9:57  
So well, that that's, that's really good. And we're going to stay on top of this source registered matters. Excellent.

Andy  10:04  
Thank you, Brenda. Anything else you want to plug before?

Unknown Speaker  10:07  
Nope, nope. I'm good. I'm just happy to be here. And I'll listen in.

Andy  10:11  
Thank you and appreciate all of your efforts with all the different things that you do too many to number.

Unknown Speaker  10:18  
Thank you so much.

Unknown Speaker  10:19  
All right. Thanks,

Andy  10:21  
Larry. Are you ready to get into all these crazy articles?

Larry  10:25  
One of the one of the biggest thing that she does it doesn't get recognized as she puts up with the

Andy  10:29  
man I'm with you on that man I I will send her all the fruit baskets necessary to to help her tolerate all that.

Unknown Speaker  10:38  
Because I have to put up with it so I can appreciate it.

Larry  10:41  
Like I get agitated I have to I have to avail man she's she's the one that hears my venting and what I'm agitated.

Andy  10:49  
Larry, this is almost let's see, it's what three ish or something weeks before Halloween, and the Halloween articles have started in definite numbers. You ready? We have like two Halloween articles tonight.

Larry  11:04  
worldwide. The first one is to stay.

Andy  11:07  
Yes, because I this this article comes from Florida politics. com police policing the police did Sarasota Sheriff go too far in undercover sexting? How we, I know that we like cover the same subjects over and over and over again. But here we have it where cops go into what are presumably adult oriented dating sites, whatever that be plenty of fish, grinder, whatever. And somebody strikes up a conversation with they assumed to be an adult. And then the police are posing as the person trying to date. And then they say oh, by the way, I'm 14. And your point has always been well, why didn't they stop the conversation? And I'm, you know, why didn't you but whatever. So there's there's no victim though. Who is the victim in this case other than the intent to commit the crime?

Larry  11:59  
Well, I want to clarify, my point is, is that from a legal perspective, they should stop the conversation. But I'm not forgiving, and giving the police a pass here. I've been unequivocal and my criticism of police for doing this. You actually didn't didn't didn't frame it up exactly the way it is. The police create adult profiles. And then after a conversation and Sue's did they magically become under age? So it's a bait and switch. Right? Right. And yeah, and then the person. I don't there's no such thing as fantasy chat. And the person who is in the chat room in an adult site, thinking they're talking to an adult, and then the person says, oh, by the way, I'm 15. It's possible that you could reasonably believe that person as engaging in a fantasy chat. Unless you have live visual, unless you have a live visual. You don't know what's on the other end of that keyboard.

Unknown Speaker  12:59  
You know, a TV show called 21 Jump Street. It's pretty old. I've heard,

Larry  13:03  
I've heard of it.

Andy  13:04  
So these are like adult detectives, and they put them in a school at least that's what I remember as being the storyline. But even in the article, they say the reason why they can't get any, like, kid looking detectors because there aren't any kid looking detectives that are like 21 year old detectives that looked like their 50s that they could actually use to be an active participant. You know, you got some 50 year old hairy dude saying that my name is Melissa doesn't work out real life doesn't have some sort of live chat.

Larry  13:30  
That does not. But what you have here in the case of this particular individual who we've talked about suicide, he went committed suicide after he showed up. He was 62 years old. And apparently in the Great Recession, he lost everything or lost the bulk of everything, but his name is hotbed. Kashmir around which I suspect that's Middle Eastern there. And they take the culture and the Middle East is as the shame factor on a family as you brought dishonor to the game. Yes. And, and and he would have he would have felt that because of the of the of the of the shame that would go with being arrested for this type of an offense. So he committed suicide, but he's not the only one. There have been documented this article, there's been a number of cases. So this was done in Sarasota, Florida. For those of you who don't know, it's just south of Tampa, they the Bradenton Sarasota area. And this was this was in Sarasota.

Andy  14:29  
What about the argument that I saw some people make that given that there are legitimate crimes being committed as far as like sex trafficking or some sort of abduction kind of things that police could focus their efforts on? Is this just the proverbial low hanging fruit that this is something of an easier kind of like entrapment? They can do it from their home office and snag someone and make headlines? That is, that is my opinion. That's exactly what it is this, this is glitzy, your setup,

Larry  15:01  
sting operation and they're manpower intensive. But you do the do the takedown, like they're a violent criminal, they take down these old guys, as if they're, you know, they're about to blow up a rack or something. It's ridiculous with overwhelming force. But again, if you citizens out there did not give them overwhelming force, they would not be able to employ overwhelming force. So we have to look at the beard ourselves when the cops keep saying they need more and more police officers. As crime continues to plummet. We have to knock on our head and say, Hello. Why do we keep falling into this argument that they need more and more resources? Of course, they don't need more and more resources. Crime is going down. I think we have an argument about

Unknown Speaker  15:40  
that tonight, too. So

Larry  15:43  
but but but the the overwhelming manpower that these things take, but they also generate good media. You can This is great for TV. It really is it is great for for for elected officials, particularly, Sheriff primarily, I don't know if it interests we're sheriffs Don't run. There may be some board there are appointed through some process, but generally a sheriff was elected and they're very close to the people. And this is this is a very appealing to the people. I mean, they're taking as far as the average citizens concerned. They're not getting into the nuances of what we're talking about tonight. of the police misconduct, the average citizen as far as they're concerned, these people are standing between adults who are trying to beat minors, these adults had no intention of meeting a minor until the police pretended to be one. Right? outrage, finished doeschate that should outrage everyone that the police are pretended to be something they're not to try to create a crime that doesn't really exist in large numbers. So go ahead,

Andy  16:46  
Ryan. And jet says the number of police that came to my door was around 30. It was insane. 30 cops for a non violent, extremely docile person.

Larry  16:54  
That that's, that confirms what I'm saying. They bring in massive, massive power it like this. And what do you suppose your neighbors think when they're starting officers?

Andy  17:06  
What do you think? Yeah, I mean, if you're out if you're looking at your you know, your front window of your door, and you see 30 cops all pulling up, like, I mean, you think that Osama bin Laden lives across the street?

Larry  17:16  
Yeah, absolutely. So so it's something where there's there's there's a deliberate they know your background, by the time they come to do the rest. They from your criminal history. They've talked to people that you're acquainted with, they've done surveillance by the time they they even though these things generally they know if you want to catch a predator, they knew a fair amount about each person before they did to take that. And there was that because I usually there was engaging in chat for several days. Yeah,

Andy  17:43  
there was a girl, I'm pretty sure it was California, and but she was held hostage in the backyard for 18 or something years by a convicted sex offender. And probation never went and thought about looking in the backyard. And she was just an attempt something like that. Legitimate case, there was no one of the one I think in Chicago were three girls were shackled to the floor and the upstairs of the house. And eventually, one of them like snuck out and made a big stink. I mean, there are legitimate, like, things that the police could do, but they focus on this stuff and not just have one or two officers go Hey, Mr. Baby, maybe you should come downtown with us. But no, they're gonna they're going to show up in a whole SWAT van, and come out and tech squad with snipers on the roof of opposing houses.

Larry  18:25  
So this this, this article is very good read for those is even the process even the prosecutor expressed a little bit of concern about the techniques. When you have when you have the prosecutor saying perhaps we need to rethink this. And even Sheriff Judd who's done so many of these, I said Sheriff just not doing them anymore history section. And Andrea, what county in Florida, he said,

Andy  18:46  
to focus on a point from us being like actionable, is it? Do we then go to the sheriff and go, Hey, are you going to continue doing these things? Otherwise? I'm not? or excuse me, if you continue to do these things. I'm not voting for you. Is that the only tool that we the people have to fight this?

Larry  19:04  
Well, it's not the only tool we have the courts. But the courts are not very sympathetic to when you when you argue and trap the trap by his password that there was a predisposition to your not being a trapped if you're trying to commit a crime. And the the court General, that's the let's that issue, go to the jury, whether or not you were entrapped? And once you continue the dialogue, and this is where my where my concern comes in. Because once you continue to continue to dialogue with a person who's magically become 14 or 15. Then they say, well, you had the predisposition and the jury's failed. Well, I'm a parent, you know, I will have what what somebody out there perving on my kid online. What's the thing is there was someone perfect on your kid online, there was no kid. It was it was the police creating a fake scenario, there was no one perfect you're that you're the person that was perfect on your kid was actually an adult child. But that that that goes over their head of all they do is go into defensive mode about this is what I want. This is what I want my Sheriff doing. Of course, I want my Sheriff protecting the kids.

Andy  20:10  
Just one last thing before we move on. I often think about radar traps to be something of interest. I think that's a bullshit way to get somebody caught for speeding, but you were already doing the speeding, you were breaking the law. And then there's a cop sitting there waiting for the for you to cross their path. At least you were in the act of committing something that would be construed as breaking the law. That's the only thing that I can think of that is I mean, like, what is the Walmart greeter? Like drop something in your pocket as you walk into the store, and then they snag you for shoplifting? That would be entrapment. I guess. I'm trying to come up with something that is like a relatable something that is, you know, that we have in a normal society, like something that we can frame of reference to that would be normal. And outside of this this is variable esoteric?

Larry  21:01  
Was it what entrapment is when when the person the law enforcement officer encourages you to commit a crime that you were not thinking of doing went to company and say, Hey, you know, I kinda got scheduled on this bank. And I kind of know when the when the band comes in, and I'm thinking we can make out like a bandit. And you say, oh, okay, I'm in and they said, oh, by the way, here's my badge on the police. Yeah, you were predisposed to commit that crime until it was offered, and the inspiration and the idea was planted on you. But if you happen to put up with this is where all the people who get caught in prostitution stings. Are you a cop doesn't make any difference? Because you're out there looking for illegal sex to hire, which is illegal in most the United States? and asking them if they're a cop, you're predisposed to hire for illegal sex? And you say, Are you a cop that does absolutely nothing, they have to tell you. People are convinced that that's a trap. But that that is not anything resembling a trap. But

Andy  21:56  
there, if you refer back to the TV show, Miami Vice where I can't remember their sunny and tubs what we know it was sunny Crockett, and something tubs they they would pose as big drug dealers, and they would go and they would make the trade. And once the money had exchanged, and the other person has the drugs, then they would go arrest them. But I mean, they were cops doing the deed, but they were actually delivering a product and exchanging money for said product.

Larry  22:20  
Yes, but they weren't encouraging the person to commit the crime, they were merely responding to correct,

Andy  22:25  
but already

Larry  22:26  
demand that traffic comes in when when they provide the motivation. And the idea. And when when when people try to use this and trap my defense, it never works. Or at least I haven't seen it work. And I've been involved in probably a half dozen cases here in my state work, Laura's and had the brainstorm that they're going to try and wrap it up. And so I'll tell them that it's not a good defense. Because once you continue to engage after you've been informed, unless you say I look this, we are having a fantasy chat. Okay, know, you're not 37 I know you're not 15 years old, you're actually a 37, your big old fat cop, and you're sitting there trying to entrap me, but for purposes of this fantasy, you're 15. Yep. But but they continue to engage the person. And and I'm going to take ridicule from this, because someone's going to say that that I don't understand. But that that's not a, it's not a good defense. It's practically all you have, when you've shown up to the meeting, and you've got the condoms, and you've got everything that indicates that you want to have sex with a minor. But but it's not a defense that works.

Andy  23:35  
All right, let's move on over to a New York Times article and explosion and online child sex abuse, what you need to know this, to me, My take is that this has almost entirely to do with internet usage and sharing, not really so much in the public eye. But using encrypted not necessarily encrypted but private messaging apps to share. And it says a record 45 million illegal images were flagged last year alone. And they don't necessarily say exactly where all of those came from. But they do say that the current time, nearly two thirds of those are coming off of like Facebook Messenger. Wow, that is a lot of naughty child images being passed around.

Larry  24:15  
It is and it's it's one of those things where work out a we're going to head to the technology, I suppose hasn't completely caught up with with the laws and technology don't match because gotta have people I think still to review these. Do they have a computer that'll do the initial scan before before he even has to review these? I don't understand all this stuff.

Andy  24:38  
I am I would struggle to see how you could Okay, so you have you have an adult? Let's take a I can't think of her name at the moment you have. there's a there's a famous actress at this point. She runs around on bikini on the tail on the on Instagram all the time. And so let's just say the picture is I don't know 90% flesh, but she still has a bikini on. So it's not porn, you then you just change the context. I don't know how the computer can I don't I don't see how you could determine that level of intent of an image with computer algorithms yet, just like the Supreme Court said forever ago, they said, Well, I don't know how to define porn, but I know it when I see it. And to me, this feels like the same thing. Because you know, it is that time of year the most popular costume almost every year to be bought is the little Catholic school girl outfit, the little plaid skirt and the tall white stockings. Somehow that is in our culture as being the most sexy, hot, popular costume that someone that an adult could wear.

Larry  25:40  
So well, it did we truly do we truly have the the the wherewithal to deal with this if it's exploded to 45 million. And what's the timeframe on the 45 million last year? It says last

Andy  25:51  
year, last year alone. I do wonder from your point of view of the ability for us to have crypto chat with people, Whatsapp uses very high end encryption. There's another program called signal, there's telegram there's a bunch of them. And then now Facebook has reported that they're going to use encryption. And I'm not trying to get to the technical side for you. But from the privacy side of it, that you and your boss have the I believe that you have the right to have on what's a public non public communication between the two of you, whether that is to talk about a case, whether that's to share legal images, you have the right to have those things private. Where does the legal side come in for the government to say Facebook, don't do it? And then actually then impose they can't do it?

Larry  26:40  
I don't know, that's one of those questions that justice scalia is going to have to answer.

Andy  26:45  
Because I use one and I don't use it, I use it with a handful of people use signal. And it uses a ridiculously as far as I know, to this point, it has not been a encryption has not been broken. And they even deployed the same encryption technology inside of Skype as well. And I do not think that you can make you can't make a backdoor on it without breaking the encryption. And as we have the Fourth Amendment and you have like you have the right to have private conversations with people for not a legal purposes. And if they break it for their purposes, then they break it for everybody.

Larry  27:23  
Well, they're gonna lie the problem, are you going to be able to detect a criminal? Which is not? That's not you don't have the right to share images that are forbidden, of course. So are they going to be able to have the technology that will be able to see into these encrypted conversations? I don't understand any of that.

Andy  27:43  
Yeah, I understand. Um, yeah. And, and, and the math as far as I know that. I mean, that's what it comes down to the math is amoral. And I don't know if there's a better word than that. But, you know, two plus two is four, and I don't care whether you're white, black, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, I don't, it doesn't matter. And that's what encryption is. It either works or doesn't work. It's either breakable or unbreakable. And it doesn't care. So you know, you can use a pencil as a deadly weapon. But that doesn't make the pencil inherently bad. The pencil just is.

Larry  28:12  
So well, we just need to turn off the internet.

Andy  28:16  
I'm with you. All right, then. So the internet is often Oh shit, you know what that means? The podcast won't go through. Damn it. So well, let's move on to move over to Kansas. com. You

Larry  28:27  
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you Al Gore.

Andy  28:30  
Yes, yes, yes, of course. Al Gore, he invented the internet. So he says that was can you clarify that? He did? I know he didn't say it. But what was what was the misconstrued idea out of that?

Larry  28:41  
He and then some people's view, he took more credit than he deserved. He was he was one of the committee's that they had forgot the name. But he was he was he was the chair of one of the committee's that dealt with communication. So tables, a big proponent of the internet. And as enter, exploded in the 90s when Bill Clinton became President 93, there was like 100,000 websites and then by the time he left in 2001, there was I mean, it just exponentially exploded. Yeah, gore gore said something about that he had been instrumental in that and the internet and and the people who were gore haters said, He's taking credit for inventing the internet. It wasn't doing

Andy  29:24  
well, just for the at least my understanding the quick history is DARPA created which is the Defense Advanced Research Project, something or another anyway, so military arm and they created what was called DARPA net, and then colleges started using it and they started sending messages around and then it turned into the big full blown internet.

Larry  29:43  
Good does that is? That is my recollection, but it came from that big, bad government spending damage that everybody everybody hates. But it spreads off beautiful technologies that that people profit whether the private sector but yeah, the internet was like government creation.

Andy  29:59  
All right, well, then back over to Kansas calm and the Wichita Eagle, lifetime sex offender registration for 14 year old rapist constitutional says the court and you say that this is funny, Larry.

Larry  30:12  
Well, I don't know if it was a staple. But it's it's a it's a great case for people who like to dive into the cases, because all the stuff that's that's that I'll pontificate about is in this case. And we're going to have a copy of it. That's that has appropriately been highlighted in the in the show notes. All right. If I can figure if I can figure out how to get back to my files, they're gone. They go away. See,

Andy  30:41  
you had other problems. This is not somebody came in and sabotage your computer. And we are all about some conspiracy theories, the NSA, because of the popularity of this podcast, and it's going to bring down the registry and all that they have sabotage your machine.

Larry  30:54  
They have but I found it now. So I thought it it's only a 12 page, that sound of the Kansas Court of Appeals. and and the the juvenile sex offender is unhappy that they changed the registration requirement, both what was going to be a five year requirement for him at the time he at the time, he was adjudicated to a lifetime requirement. And so he put forth a plethora of arguments, and they were all shot down every single one of them. And so I started by underlining or highlighting on page one, line one, the syllabus of the court, we presume statutes are constitutional and resolve all doubts in favor of a statutes validity. And I know what I say that people get so angry, they say, well, Larry, there he goes, again, defending the statute. No, I'm just relaying the court's interpretation and jurisprudence. I'm not telling you that, that that that is the way I'd like it to be. Right. And, but but the determine whether line five to determine where the legislature statutory scheme is punitive is applied to a juvenile offender, we must use the intent effects test adopted and state versus Peterson, which was a 2016 case decided by the Kansas Supreme Court. And they went through all that and and they filed they found we find that the registration requirement is not punishment as to a juvenile. And it's not part of the juvenile offenders Senate. So it does not follow the constitutional provisions in ours, the juveniles name raises and the relevant statutes impose on the defendant the duty to register making any lack of magistrate courts authority to do to do so in material fighting doe area error, we affirm this, this also is a pontificate about breaking the case correctly, and a declaratory judgment This was brought in a criminal setting through an appeal he pled he pled guilty to stipulated the facts that that he had the adjudication that he he had had committed the fence. And it comes he was charged with failure to register he moved out of out of a shelter or some sort of he did not update. And he pled guilty to stipulate facts and preserving the right to appeal. And he he did he did the appeal. Yeah, criminal case, not the best way to go about it, folks, because the criminal, the criminal courts not really set up for you to build a civil evidentiary record. So as you read through this opinion, you go through and and and he pays he allegedly violates the cruel, unusual punishment of the Eighth Amendment. He says it violates the coolness of punishment of the Kansas Bill of Rights. He says it violates Ex Post Facto Clause the US Constitution, and he said it was an illegal and sentence because it was imposed by the magistrate judge without any authority and post registration. He got shot down on all of that. And and he he is you read through I think I I've highlighted here on on around page nine that that were or he did not build the record. The lawyer. It says to show the burden that Cora which is Kansas offender registration registration requirement has placed on him and our relies on to affidavit since attorney reviewed during the hearing on his motion to dismiss and and one from his fiance. But and are never moved to admit these affidavits either at the hearing or on his motion to dismiss or at trial. So the district court never never admitted them as evidence. Although NR has included the the affidavits and the record of an appeal. The court cannot consider the evidence because it was not admitted at trial. That sounds like almost a rookie mistake. Does it it?

Unknown Speaker  34:45  
Yes, it does.

Andy  34:48  
And you said you said this even pre show you said to make a constitutional challenge during a criminal trial is a bad idea.

Larry  34:56  
It's it's not set up for you to build the best evidence for record. It's not a bad idea. If you could get rid of a offending charge on a constitutional claim, you'd be a fool not to. But but it doesn't provide the forum for building the effect that they Brenda still on here listening. And the Maryland appellate courts said to people who were bringing the challenge to criminal cases, please stop doing this bring the challenge in a declaratory judgment, if you want us to seriously consider it. Because there you have a chance to build a record below. And he would have had a chance to build the record below if he had been. But it may be he had nobody I suspect he didn't have any money because he said he was staying at some kind of shelter. And they terminated him for for failure to comply with what the program. So he probably didn't have any money. And he did the best he could have done the criminal case. But now we have appellate case law out of Kansas, where a person tried to say that juveniles are different. And they relied on three supreme court saying that juveniles are not fully developed where they are the supreme Supreme Court has said juvenile should be treated differently. And the Kansas court shut all that down. They said, Well, that's true in the case of punishment, but extreme punishments are being handed down. But this is not a punishment. This is simply a regulatory scheme,

Andy  36:17  
right? Yeah. Isn't this another one of those cases where that can be flipped on its head and used in our favor, though, because of the extreme levels of disability that the registry does create? It's not just that the law enforcement knows, but the

Larry  36:34  
hated, hated build that into the record. So that's why the declaratory judgment route is the best way to go. They should have

Andy  36:43  
consulted you first, I think,

Larry  36:44  
well, they may have not had the resources, this may have been an overworked public defender that had to do with the best he or she could with the resources they had.

Andy  36:54  
Are you then saying that you're not completely like notorious nationwide? You're not the infamous Larry that no, all the things about the registry stuff?

Larry  37:03  
Well, I would have been happy to consult. But if you tell it attorney that has a client to represent that you shouldn't be doing this. And I said, Well, look, I work for the public defender. I can't do a civil action as a public defender. And I've tried to do everything I can to keep my client from being sentenced as a as a felon and violation of the Kansas offender registration. I can you help me with that. That's what I want. That attorney doesn't want to hear all my song and dance about, we have to look at the better greater cause. And we have to, they don't want to hear that their job is to defend that particular person. He was representing NR he wasn't representing the whole state of Kansas. All the juveniles in Kansas, that was not his problem. His problem was in our Yeah, yeah, Yep. Yep.

Andy  37:51  
All right, well, then I guess we should move over to sleep. And I'm going to try and build the case that this is relevant to us. dominoes wants slice await the Americans with Disabilities Act. And I think the best way that I can say this is that dominoes wants to make it, they want to avoid having to make their website accessible to people with particularly visual disabilities, Charles, a listener of ours, and a Patreon supporter, he is visually impaired. And he has to use all kinds of add on technology, like screen readers and other things so that he can navigate websites, the way that sighted people do without even thinking about it. And dominoes case is that they don't want to spend the 10s or hundreds of thousands of dollars, which sounds exorbitantly small compared to their what their gross revenue is. And they don't want to do this. Now, here's where it's tangentially related to us. Our people are often impaired from using the internet at various ways in various ways. So if the Americans with Disabilities Act, provides regulations to make it so that bathroom doors are so wide, so people in wheelchairs can get in and out and ramps and other things of that nature. And that is, the idea is that these impairments, these barriers, make it so that they have a hard time making it through what our lives are more easily more easily traversed. Then doesn't that then say that people on the registry that have limited access to the internet? Like Yes, that's obviously an impairment. There. That's my case. Well denied,

Larry  39:24  
damn it. overrule. overruled, you suck. Larry.

Andy  39:26  
Does that mean does that? Is that a fair case to be made?

Larry  39:32  
It's it's stretching, is it really, this? This whole this whole thing? This whole thing is a stretch? You think so now? Oh, absolutely. It's a stretch. But Scalia, you'd have this would be a no brainer for him, he wouldn't have to read the briefs. As he said the last time we had we had had him on that he wouldn't have to read the briefs. Now, this is not my personal view. So I don't need hate mail. Looking at looking at a constitutional just merely the Constitution of what the Constitution guarantees you, the Constitution doesn't guarantee you that every business will treat you fairly, and that they will accommodate you. The Constitution has replaces no such burden on business. And in fact, in a capitalist system, capitalism is designed for, for the law of supply and demand to dictate business decisions. So what we have here is we have a public policy issue, it would be a good public policy, if more accommodations were made, and people with disabilities could more fully participate, we would have a healthier society. And that goes across the board, not just people with disabilities physically, it would go across the board with people who are broken individuals that are homeless sleeping on the tents, we would be a healthier society, if we if we did the things to help them fully participate. But is it Domino's responsibility to do that? Or is it society's responsibility to help folks who are struggling to happen? wouldn't think that would be that responsibility to go out and employ these people that are homeless and living in tents in San Francisco? Would you? It does a societal problem.

Andy  41:09  
Yes, I agree with that. Um, but I from the technology side of it in this specific in this specific situation, it's, to me, it's trivial, doing this kind of work to make it so that it is more, it costs money, I get that. But it's also worth they only have to do once and then maintain for them to make this so that people with visual impairments can can view the site, same as society as a whole decide that. We don't want people dealing with this, we say that we want there to be ramps to the people wheelchairs can make it into buildings, and so forth. Like we but I guess from the Scalia side, like there's no constitutional protection for that we as society decide that we don't want those people to have those barriers.

Larry  41:50  
That is correct. And the Americans with Disabilities Act can be updated to require dominoes, right now the position dominoes is taking is it that's it's about physical barriers, physical barriers, and therefore we don't have a physical barrier. This is this is this is a technological barrier. It's this physical barrier. And therefore, you know, go pound sand. If you want to change the Americans with Disabilities Act, that's fine. Go ahead and do that. That's what public policy discourse is all about. And then they would be able to come in and make the argument with the cost just like they did in 1990, I believe was 1990. With Ada past, adult george HW Bush was president. And under Ted kit, Ted Kennedy, and some of the leading democrats worked in a bipartisan fashion, your famous bipartisanship to get that to the president who signed it. And here we are, what 3090 to 2000, about 30 years later. And what did they say? 25% of the schools in New York radio accessible from musical barriers. I'm like 30% of the subways are writing. So the government itself hasn't made great strides and and three decades.

Andy  42:58  
Yeah, yeah, the last time paragraph describes this thing's nearly 30 years after the ADA was enacted, less than 20% of NYC public schools are fully accessible to children with disabilities, and only 25% of subway stations are wheelchair accessible.

Larry  43:12  
So so we have we have a long way to go. Right. But But what what needs to be needs to be happening is that this needs to be resolved in the public policy debate. Wait all want our judges legislating from the bench? Do we Andy? I'm inclined

Andy  43:29  
to say no. And then I just would revert back to that the American people are jerks for not making this just the standard that this is what is expected of you being part of our society. But that's not what

Larry  43:42  
it is. But But our audience tends to be on the conservative side, you do not want judges that have on a black robe, to legislate from the bench and to interpret into the Americans with Disabilities Act. These these requirements would be drench and Scalia would tell you it's a no brainer. I don't have to read the briefs. Right. The ADA did contemplate this, the change that has happened and society in 1990 people weren't thinking about virtual combination. There were they were thinking about physical barriers are talking about ramps and stairs and elevators. Well, then let me ask you this question. People

Andy  44:24  
have two questions our judges super legislators.

Larry  44:27  
Well, it depends on what you believe, if you believe if you if you believe in limited role, the judiciary they're not if you believe that the courts are exist to save us and to God or public policy that yes, they're super legislators, but I tend to actually be I don't want judges imposing their personal agenda.

Andy  44:45  
And my second question is very much related our courts roving tribunals

Larry  44:50  
they were not rolling past has to be brought to them for review. This dispute was brought to them and and and it's made its way to Supreme Court, and they have granted cert yet have they that they're considering it?

Andy  45:04  
I do not believe it has made it very far. No. So but it's I mean, that the subtitle of it is a possibility that Supreme Court might decide blah, blah, blah. So yeah, so that's they're seeing if SCOTUS will grant sir.

Larry  45:19  
But But in terms of the the issue we face we're we're facing banishment from from this is this is different when you're told you cannot access these platforms, that you're forbidden. Yeah. Charles can access it all he wants to he just he just can't fully. I mean, if you can't see you can't you can't use it if it's you. And I don't know all the various tools that they used to work for visually impaired but but he has a face is no poor prohibition whatsoever. He can what maybe he does, depending on what stadiums Yeah. But but but this is this is not a barrier at all. This is a company saying, I'm not doing this.

Andy  46:00  
The tangentially related part was there being in a, like, you know, the the policy prohibition from our side of the equation where like, your handler says you can't use the internet versus it being functionally unusable because it's not designed for you without having site. I, you know, six, one way half dozen, the other, the end result is essentially the same that you can't use it.

Larry  46:24  
Yeah, but the visually impaired person, assuming they're not on the registry, or have some probation on their probation officer, there, they're not forbidden, nor do they face prosecution, or simply cannot you they just simply cannot use it, because it's not user friendly. Yep. Alright, business, does it does a business have a responsibility to make everything user friendly?

Andy  46:45  
It seems like it would be in the in their interest to make it but then again, it

Larry  46:48  
does I say bye bye. P but but do they? Do they have some responsibility to make everything user friendly?

Andy  46:57  
I feel that you're trapping me on that question.

Larry  46:59  
You're already I'd use. You don't want a big old bad government. I mean, that's the problem with our economy. And it's we've got too much intrusion and over regulation, and the government is always sticking its nose and everything and telling businesses what they have to do. That's the problem, why America is not competitive.

Andy  47:19  
you frame the way you frame that question to me was that does the business hold some responsibility and as a part of society, then they do bear some of that responsibilities, don't they?

Larry  47:30  
Well, if you're a good corporate citizen, you would take into account those those factors. And Domino's has said we've taken them into account.

Andy  47:39  
And so but then we, you know, we can flip the equation over and go, they are just capitalist driven. And you know, they have the obligation to their shareholders. So they're just optimizing for profits. So if the people that have the disabilities, because like, they're an insignificant portion of our business, that it matters.

Larry  47:54  
That's what they're probably saying. And we could express our disapproval with I mean, I haven't pizza, dominoes and 30 years, so they won't, they won't feel one way the other for me, but you You certainly you certainly could voice your approval, or disapproval by I mean, boycotts or people tried a few years ago to boycott chick fil a and their sales zoomed beyond all imaginary proportions that they couldn't even handle it. So I'm not a big fan that boycotts are going to achieve the result, but agreed.

Andy  48:25  
All right, well, our first of two appeals articles tonight is a what Kamala Harris take on policing gets wrong. And my takeaway, like my short version of the story is that she is trying to revamp the already existing police force to do kind of sort of what they do, but we're going to slap a layer of nice colored paint on it, I guess we're going to put lipstick on a pig. That seems to be the way that this article is characterized, that it's not an actual, like policing reform. It's a policing kind of make over so to speak.

Larry  48:58  
Well, I think it's a little more aggressive that as I as I read through it, she wants to she pledges to to step up the use of department justice, to bring pattern practice cases against local police departments. Now, though, the Obama administration was doing that. Yeah. And you had these consent decree things that were entered into with the department justice and local police, including my city of Albuquerque, but under President Trump Delta, does those enforcement actions have ceased? So so the Trump administration believes that we should just trust the police to do what's best, and that they're the best to oversee themselves? And if there's any problem, of course, the locals will take care of it, and they'll do the right thing. I'm not convinced that the locals are able to do the right thing. Yes, yeah. When you're when you're dealing with something as powerful as the police, I'm not convinced that that that I mean, should they do the right thing? Of course they should. But I'm not convinced that they can do the right thing. So so so Kabbalah is, is wanting to wanting to break that practice back. What she's trying to do with my opinion here is she's trying not to come across as a radical, the democratic field of candidates has gotten so far off, and so radical, and so extreme, that she's trying to move a little bit back toward the center. And she doesn't want to sound like the ones who want to be so far left wing, that they're going to get 34% of the vote in a general election, which is what's going to happen if one of the real extreme ones gets gets nominated. Right? They're gonna they're gonna they're gonna suffer a 49 state landslide defeat.

Andy  50:27  
Oh, boy, that was awesome.

Larry  50:30  
But But I actually see how I actually see this as a positive. I mean, she's actually talking about it. And she's actually put forth a plan. And it's, it's not aggressive enough for some but I but I see this as I see this as a positive, but according the article, what's missing from Harris's package, and PR. And procedural justice more generally, is any real interrogation of enhanced scope of policing that has occurred the last 40 years, which means how many it says they arrest 9 billion people in 2016. for nonviolent offenses, which it goes back to our you, but we've got too many cops on the street with too little to do. And so they're able to arrest people. So she's not going after the over policing. She can't do that. Because the police are so strong, they will turn on her with a vengeance. If she does that. Political, political, she can't go any further than she's gone. I mean, folks, we do live in a political system. And that's the way we run our country. It decisions are political.

Andy  51:34  
Yeah. All right. And then our second appeals article, and I shouldn't say appeals, it's the appeal. Oklahoma Department of Corrections, agrees to move qualifying, whatever that means death row prisoners out of tune, like unit layer, they're living in these these people are in death row. And I have a great question for you here with Dr. Do this 44 of the 47 death sentence, prisoners are in permanent solitary confinement. And they say I think they said it's about the size of a parking space. And there's no windows, there's probably a window on the door, but there's no outside light, they get treated pretty surely. And so this looks like they're going to move many, many, many of them into something that would resemble more humane treatments. But you know, we're already at the far end of the scale of being treated very poorly. So anything would be an improvement. But so here's my question. If these people have already been sentenced to death, and why does it matter how we treat them? And don't send me hate mail? I'm just asking this question.

Larry  52:34  
Well, I think that it matters because we have a constitutional prohibition on cruel and unusual punishment, and light deprivation and sensory deprivation, I would think would qualify and then and then the people that are on death row have diminished religious access to religious services, which I think it's also a constitutional right. Right. And so I would say it's just a general decency thing. That that we would Yes, there they are on death row. That was the sentence of the court that was the law of Oklahoma, but there soon it says death their sentences not torture while you're waiting for the actual death to occur.

Andy  53:13  
But we the people have decided that that's what how we want them to be treated otherwise, we would have made up something different. I

Larry  53:19  
don't think the average citizen knows or even thinks a whole lot about this. So how the one person second off to prison I mean, when's the last time you thought about governor look away bitch and what kind of conditions exam and the maximum the unit is a federal prison in Colorado? Nobody thinks about what what he's been doing.

Andy  53:36  
Is he at the at the crazy place in in Colorado, but

Larry  53:40  
last time, I looked him up on the VIP website. That's where he was

Andy  53:43  
Good grief. I've seen some documentaries on that place, a place like the Supermax.

Larry  53:48  
Yes, that's got him up. So that's a terrible, terrible place for sure. But I don't think the average person thinks a lot about it takes people on death row, and they're forgotten about until we hear on the news that they were executed.

Andy  54:00  
Frankly, I would be willing to bet that the more common response from the public would be is like, hey, they did their crime, then you know, that's what you get.

Larry  54:10  
Well, that probably would be the common responses. This pales in comparison to what they did when they kill somebody because that's what you did kill somebody. And some of the murders are very heinous and gruesome to that. But that's not what a civilized society does. We don't we don't try to extract the same torture that they inflicted. That's just not what a civilized society

Andy  54:34  
ready to be a part of registry matters. Get links at registry matters dot CEO. If you need to be all discreet about it, contact them by email registry matters cast at gmail. com. You can call or text or ransom message to 7472 to 74477. Want to support registry matters on a monthly basis. patreon.com slash registry matters. Not ready to become a patron. Give a five star review at Apple podcasts or Stitcher or tell your buddies that your treatment class about the podcast. We want to send out a big heartfelt support for those on the registry. Keep fighting without you we can't succeed. You make it possible. All right, then let's move over to our one law. com article for the night this one sort of a silly article. And as long island judge suspended without pay after pleading guilty to underwear burglary. Larry, please please lay this one out for me because this one's funny.

Larry  55:38  
While I clicked on it didn't go anywhere. But what I did read it originally when I dropped it in but this time it didn't open for me but

Andy  55:47  
so the judges name is sick kale, cicala circlet, I don't know how to pronounce CICA la.

Larry  55:55  
I guess he has a fascination for undergarments. Electronic article

Unknown Speaker  56:02  
This one's funny.

Andy  56:04  
psychology has been suspended by the High Court last year but with pay after he was arrested on burglary charges of going into some woman's house and stealing her underwear. Is there anything else that we're going to take away from this other than the silliness of the crime itself?

Larry  56:19  
That was was really just one of those things where it was the oddity of it, but that it illustrates that people who are high functioning and have made it in life when you reach the level of a judgeship at any level, unless you're part time, one day a month judge but if you reach that level, there's there's a fair amount of work, it's gone into getting the law degree, and then positioning yourself in a political process to be appointed, or to be elected or whatever the process is, you've reached it. And it goes to show that people that have have made it that life and everything apparently going for them they say to are afflicted by compulsions and disorders that need treatment. I don't think we'd like to spend a whole lot of money like in this guy for a long period of time, I'd like to wait for it to save and get better, you know, going in people's houses without their permission and taking their garments. It's just probably not the best thing for anybody to be doing. So so it's a little discombobulated. When you go to your underwear drawer, they're missing I think.

Andy  57:23  
I remember having 10 undergarments, and now I only have seven. Where's the other three go?

Larry  57:27  
Yeah, I don't. I have never experienced that as a problem. But I can imagine it would be a little discombobulating.

Andy  57:33  
Yes. Well, you know, there's always a sock problem with your laundry that you know, you put in two pairs of socks and only one sock comes out or not two pair of socks and only one comes out. You're like Where did they go? So maybe the the dryer is starting to need underwear now.

Larry  57:46  
So what would be a particular discombobulating if you had figured out that someone had been in your house and people felt can feel there's some little something changed and people can feel that there. There's been an intrusion even though it's not ransacked, people can can detect someone's been there. So yeah, that would be discombobulating. Did you go to your underwear drawer? Oh, this is what they took. Yep, yep.

Andy  58:05  
Yep. And you might not know for a week or two as you start getting down to the to the bottom of the drawer or something like that.

Larry  58:13  
Oh, yeah. That's

Andy  58:14  
right, Larry, is it also said

Larry  58:16  
Go go go. That's it. This was a humorous one, but also sad.

Andy  58:19  
Yes, of course. Um, it seems that there are a lot of state fairs this time of year is that I'm for some reason, I've never really noticed this before. But you you have yours out there in your part of the country. And there's a bunch going on here. And then apparently, there's another one in North Carolina. I'm just wondering, Is this the time of year for state fairs?

Larry  58:36  
It is there's the time of the year where the weather's over about right in the fall fairs tend to be the I mean, they run fairs all Carnival runs all year round. But not all year round, but all the warm months. But but the fall fairs tend to be the best roll draws. I always tend the for several years I've attended the North Georgia fair, which is a very large fair there in the suburban cop Johnny. Not too far from view. What an hour and a half from your sub. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  59:05  
yeah. Yeah.

Andy  59:08  
Something like that. All right. But this article is come comes from WSOC. tv. And this is zero tolerance warning issue to sex offenders. If caught at Cleveland County Fair. to Cleveland County, North Carolina has all their security cameras and all their cops on on the watch looking for people that are on the registry go into these fairs. They they have some sort of prohibition from them going, is this for only people on supervision, or is this anybody that is on the register? Is

Larry  59:36  
it is anybody on the registry, and I was getting my haircut today and and I was talking to the stylist who has a teenage daughter. And we were talking about the teenage daughters struggle a little bit with weight. She's not obese, but she's struggling with that. And I said, well, Mom, I tell you what, you've been a part of the problem. She said off what I said you've been a part of the said you've been a part of the problem. I said, just think about how overly protective you are compared to how when you were raised as you don't let her go anywhere on foot because they're sexual predators grabbing a children and teenagers. I said, You don't get to hang out the mall, they don't get to work. She's on cheerleading. You have to take her practice. You have to pick her up. And be You said you're a hovercraft all the time over her. And I said that that's part of the problem. And I said, You you you have contributed she says, Well, I have to protect my daughter. I said from what I was at the fair, I said I was at the fair and there was all this hoopla about protecting people from sex offenders. And I said when is the last time you've heard of anyone being sexually abused at affair of any while she said I've never heard of it. So what if Why can't your daughter go to the fair hang out have a good time? There's cameras everywhere. There's bad cops everywhere. There's there's undercover cops everywhere. Why do you have to hover over her? And she said I've never thought about it like that. I just want protector? Yes, of course. Well, that's that's what all this is about here. This is feeding into the public. The public is just chewing this up with this is on TV. I think you have a clip that you could run if you if you wanted to. But this is this is this is feeding into the people like that parent who they're convinced that their child is in extreme danger. And that they love this that the law enforcement is spending hundreds of thousands of dollars in overtime to protect it from a non existent threat.

Unknown Speaker  1:01:30  
All right, well, let's do that article that uh, the news clip

Unknown Speaker  1:01:33  
security. If you head out to the Cleveland County Fair

Larry  1:01:36  
this year, they want to weed out people who most certainly should not be there. We're talking about sex offenders are Ken lemon just spoke to the sheriff and you basically asked Ken, how are they going to be able to find sex offenders in the crowds?

Unknown Speaker  1:01:49  
Well, Scott, what they're going to do is they're going to reach out to officers who know the richest sex offenders the best register parole and probation officers are going to help get these patrol the fair way out here right now. The sheriff says that this is one big playground you can see the crowd already here. He wants to make sure that no one upsets that. Chip, Ellen Norman wants to get one clear message to registered sex offenders, zero tolerance. You come to the Clinton County Fair, you will be arrested all sides. The official grand opening is tomorrow. But they're already children here on the ride holding their parents hands that they make it down the Midway. It is the largest county theater in the state. They should have said a good day for fun won't be disrupted. He's inviting fear goal was to help identify registered sex offenders. There's a registry that you can actually go to not only on our website is LinkedIn with the state website. He said as many as 36 offices will be in the crowd ready to respond and keeping their eyes open to they're constantly looking. They're also cameras monitor around the clock. They showed me how they can zoom into a small area in seconds and track anything or any one out of place. See law prohibits sex offenders when going to any place designed for children like fairs or playgrounds. They haven't had a problem with sex offenders at the fair before. But the county has a problem with registered sex offenders, we have overabundance of what we normally should have accounting this ties. But we're in excess of 300. It's only one full time officer assigned to track them. So the sheriff wants to take extra measures to keep an eye on them.

Larry  1:03:26  
I don't know what the what the draw away is. But I can assure you that we're policing them is is responsible as we possibly can.

Unknown Speaker  1:03:36  
And any registered sex offender that is arrested here can face a felony that is punishable by up to probation, or even as much as two years behind bars depending on that individuals record. And the DEA in this case said that He will give His full attention to anybody who's a sex offender arrested at the fair Scott.

Unknown Speaker  1:03:56  
Certainly it makes parents feel better to hear that Thank you, Kim.

Unknown Speaker  1:04:00  
Good grief.

Andy  1:04:02  
So they're worried about that. So they haven't had any problems in the past. This is almost like the the first article we covered with the the the the the sexting kind of thing. There isn't a problem that already exists, but we're going to make sure that it doesn't become a problem. So they're going to preempt any problems that might exist.

Larry  1:04:22  
Yes. And how would it become a problem? Like Like, the visual like our friend Lenore scan Daisy? What would you see happening? Okay, there's a teenager at the fair. And the SEC center is going to do what

Andy  1:04:37  
he's going to like snatch your kid and carry them like a football and run out of the fair with the 15,000 Park attendees. Just watching it all as you run out of the place.

Larry  1:04:48  
Well, well, I was folks there with a teenager we're going to get kids at the moment, the oldest children because you'd have to snatch those around. But uh, but with a teenager. So there's a 1615 year old and there's a sex offender the sex offender is going to do what they're going. They're going to say I think you're hot and the teenagers going to say what they're gonna say I think you're gross.

Andy  1:05:08  
Yes. And go.

Larry  1:05:12  
And so the sector is going to say well, okay, you're so hot. I'm gonna give you some alcohol to get you drunk. So up. I mean, what? At the flyer? no less. Yes. So okay, so the, the kid so like Laura describes the her speech that she's given. Okay, so you're you want to snatch a child fair grounds of that size, it's going to be extremely difficult to navigate through with a snatch child to get through all the layers and layers of people and security to get off the fairgrounds with the snatch child. guessing that had be a parent or guardian that would be running along behind you like a dog lapping snapping at your heels and ankles and trying to and saying, Hey, there goes my kid. I mean, it's absurd. It is.

Andy  1:05:59  
And I so you just described like giving the kid alcohol or something like that. And the cost of that would be it would be a really expensive way to try and get a kid drunk. So

Larry  1:06:08  
so I just I just, it's it's like sheriff. I mean, do you really think that you're protecting anything? Because you're not there's nothing going to happen? It's a fair Why can't everybody just go to fair including the sex offenders and have a good time spend money and enjoy the rides look at the exhibits? Look at the competition with with the the county fairs like that in the south, they still have competition to win the ribbons for the best home canning and I mean, why can't they be a part of society of have a good time? I mean, they've paid their debt to society in many cases. Why do you have to carry a such evil? hostility and hatred? For forever? Why Sheriff Why? I do

Andy  1:06:52  
not know the answer. Other than that we as a society are just evil and mean and cruel and nasty.

Larry  1:06:58  
So how I can't take this anymore?

Andy  1:07:01  
Oh, there's that gorge, we could send you to the gorge Larry. We're coming up on episode 100 that could be our big our big skit or big stunt to try and draw listeners is that where you're going to report live from the gorge bridge as you hurl yourself off of it

Larry  1:07:17  
within the next episode, do you have a have a plan

Andy  1:07:20  
for Episode 100 that could be the thing

Larry  1:07:23  
but who would do the episode

Andy  1:07:25  
we'll do it live until

Larry  1:07:27  
and then we'll pick up so when we do the whole episode and then we'll just shut it down. Okay

Andy  1:07:34  
all right from Fox 19 calm could sex offenders pass out candy to your kids on Halloween? Here we go with the crazy Halloween stuff. This one is out of Ohio as it turns out from Cincinnati and Ohio Ohio has a no candy law which prohibits sex offenders on probation and parole from participating and trick or treating is this another problem where like sex offenders are actually saying Here kitty kitty kitty here are some candies Come on in my house so I can do terrible mean things to you.

Larry  1:08:06  
I have I have not heard of that being substantiated documented and validated that that's ever happened but it's it's interesting that that someone from Kentucky says that we should have it statewide here for everybody not just some supervised offender population but it's it's amazing that we spend so much time working on problems that don't exist I guess it's goes back to the candy scares of the 70s about the razor blade the apple that nobody has ever documented. Yes but

Andy  1:08:40  
I recall I recall hearing about it I don't ever and then you know all of a sudden then candy has to come you know and all these like pre wrapped rapper famous triggers. You know you can't have somebody baking cookies given out on Halloween. I do recall like a transition at that point.

Larry  1:08:57  
And people started taking their hosp other candidates hospitals to have it examined. Oh my god. So they would they would radiate their kids candy.

Andy  1:09:07  
That's like the flora scope thing from when you were a kid, where you'd have your shoes x rayed to make sure that your feet were fitting into the right way. Do you recall those days that

Larry  1:09:17  
no I don't remember

Andy  1:09:18  
that was in the it was roughly in the 20s I guess maybe the 30s it was right after the idea that that would be

Larry  1:09:25  
that would get back and Brenda state. Oh.

Andy  1:09:30  
Anyway, so yeah, then you would like freaking blast your feet with 10 minutes of radiation so that they could live look at your feet inside your shoes, and make sure that they were there was a proper fit?

Larry  1:09:41  
Well, I'm assuming that most kids I haven't watched trick or treating for a while ago. But I'm assuming that there's adult Guardium with most kids. And I would assume if a sex offender snatched up man, and they saw the kid vanish into the house, I'm assuming that the adults probably come up to the door frantically to hide 911. And I'm assuming that we're trying to extract the kids from in the house. What do you think that?

Andy  1:10:08  
I mean, yeah. And like, I mean, it's not like you have to run down the street to find a payphone. I mean, everybody has a camera and a communication device to where they could call police in real time, and go I am at address 123 Main Street, and this asshole just picked up my kid and now he's locked the door my kids inside, how long would it be before cops respond?

Larry  1:10:27  
So I've made the whole thing again, share some police chiefs. It's silly, absurd. And it's really, as far as I'm concerned. It's a disgrace for you to use the resources and such a manner. Is that a responsible discharge of your duty to do resource allocation in this banner? Because it's not keeping people safe. There are things you could probably do that would keep things safer. I'm thinking we always talk about traffic because the kids big hit Yeah, don't all die but there's there's more there more traffic accidents is it gets dark. And there's more problems like the problem with kids is usually cars not sex offenders.

Andy  1:11:07  
Agreed. And Brian writes in Chad, he says I don't think they're always adults with many trick or treaters depends on the age, of course, but common to see an escorted groups of kids trick or treating. And I would agree with that. My only counter to that would be it's a group of kids. And I would say that someone, it would seem to be more plausible that someone would try and snatch a kid, not a group of kids. I don't think that you could like if you know, 10 kids doing the trick or treating thing hanging out together, no one's going to try and snatch a group of 10 kids.

Larry  1:11:38  
Well, that when I said that, I agree but but the age that they're probably teens that are trick or treating without adult supervision, he would that like with my stylist, she would be she would be tagging along with her teenager, or girls 14. But in terms of when I was thinking about a kid that would be snatched well, where you could actually grab and just pull them in? I was thinking I was thinking more in terms of like 678 year olds,

Andy  1:12:03  
right. And that kid would have to be under supervision by a group of parents.

Unknown Speaker  1:12:09  
And how that would work?

Larry  1:12:10  
Yeah, I'm guessing that there's adult supervision with most kids that are in the single digit age, I would dare say that. That's probably happening. But the whole thing is absurd. It's about our, our paranoia about the non existent crime wave that we that we're not having, you know, if, if, if, if you're alive today, this is the safest time in recorded history to be alive. There's,

Andy  1:12:35  
I do Express, I express that to people that I hang out with. And, you know, someone will say, oh, blah, blah, blah, that's not a safe thing to do. And I'm like, Is there a possibility that the thing will happen? And yes, of course, there's a possibility, but the likelihood is so low, I don't even put it on my radar of something that I'm going to worry about. Because if somebody wants to commit the crime, they're going to commit the crime, and there's probably not a lot that I could do. And one then restrict how you live your life of going out to a club on a like, I just don't see what the the viable thread is.

Larry  1:13:09  
I don't understand.

Andy  1:13:11  
Alright, so we're confused. Anybody want to write in and say that there's an actual threat? Let me know. This next article comes from above the law. com, and it is your this is all you Larry, why defendants rarely testify what problems come up when the defendant testifies. I like the article, I

Larry  1:13:29  
read it get convicted. Oh, damn it.

Unknown Speaker  1:13:31  
Oh, Brenda, I'm sorry. I said it again. convicting is bad. Right.

Larry  1:13:38  
The the key was testifying as as it doesn't usually pan out very well for them. There are exceptions, but it's it's not. It opens up too many things. First of all, the average person is not an expert witness, they, you can do coaching, but but people people are not prepared to be on a pressure situation and take action rapid fire questions. And, and and so they just don't hold up well as witnesses. And they come across as non convincing to the jury. That the the, the jury is going to read a lot into a person who doesn't perform well, because all the state's witnesses, these are trained witnesses. Yeah. The victims were not trained. And I don't mean to imply that but but the all the investigators that detectives did beat officers, all these people are in court regularly testifying. And then you have you have a person who's accused of a crime. And if they have any background at all, that's going to the state's going to manage to get that in their particular if they open the door by saying I would never do something like that. If they make a comment saying, no, that's not my character. They put their character and they sell. Look out. Andy, tell me a little bit about your character. You put that on the table here. So let's talk about your character. Tell us what happened in 1997. Yeah, you got such five character. Let's hear all about this. Tell us I'm looking at your rap sheet. And it says so and so. So it's obvious you like to try to explain that to the to the jury. Well, you're the one that opened the door. Yeah, because you weren't, you weren't trained and what not to say. And despite your lawyer saying, don't, don't do this. And the pressure of the moment, people people blurt out things that open the door. And so a witness an IQ has taken a stand up, it does not help their defense. Now, those who've never been accused of a crime, they would say, if I was innocent, I would want the whole world to know it. And I'm against this top of a mountain. And I was screaming all over the valley, that I'm not guilty. And I would tell anyone who would listen. And I would just keep saying the same thing. That's what a person would say, who's never been in this situation.

Andy  1:15:52  
That is what they say, if I have nothing to hide, I don't mind if you search my stuff. That's the same argument there.

Larry  1:15:58  
Well, but oftentimes people we've made confessions, they've made something that can be construed as confession, and they went they agreed to be interviewed, because they had nothing to hide. And then the what they said, would be taken out of context by the by the prosecution, they would say now you told detective, so and so. I'm reading from your statement. You said this, right. And one though, I didn't exactly say that. What did you say? Yeah. It is just, it's just not a good good situation for for a defendant to take the stand. And most instances,

Andy  1:16:34  
and and the individual under the pressure of the moment is not going to be there there. First of all, not so much trained at like the jousting the the the debate the conversation back and forth that you have, then throw in the extra pressure of the situation of being so heavily scrutinized. Things just go south.

Larry  1:16:52  
They do. And then the jury reads way too much into that. Because they've watched, they've watched booth presentation from the state. And I've watched a discombobulated confused defendant who couldn't keep the story straight, and that they made admissions, concessions. And it just it just doesn't go well for them.

Andy  1:17:14  
And you've been in the defense industry since like the Lincoln administration, and you've defended people that you've been on the defense side of people saying, Yes, I will stand up and defend myself and get on the witness stand and it goes south for them.

Larry  1:17:29  
Well, we tried to discourage them in both cases from taking the stand for the very reason. But yes, I've seen people despite their debts, there's there certain things to law you can't control and that the defendant has the absolute right to testify. They can tell their lawyer to go screw themselves are going to testify. And they can plead that this decision to to enter plea is exclusively the defendants. The Lord has control most everything else, contrary to what the defendant believes. It's it's the strategy of the case is up to the lawyer. The but but in terms of the right to testify. So occasionally, I think I've seen a couple of defendants who insisted on testifying and against advice, and it doesn't end well. It hasn't ended well. And and going forward, I would expect it not to end well when they testify. Well, we get the next article that the police officer in Texas testified it didn't end well for her either.

Andy  1:18:23  
That Yeah, I'm with you on that. And just to close out Ryan, is pre trial. And he's in chat, he says so I probably shouldn't testify. Good to know, he's one of the rare people that we have communications with before they end up going down this wonderful rabbit hole?

Larry  1:18:40  
Well, you know, I would I would certainly defer to his attorneys advice, whatever he or she advises, but it'd be the rarest of circumstances where that they would be in advice to take the stand. It would be a circumstance where you had absolutely no criminal history where you truly didn't have anything in your character that can be misconstrued where you had not made a pre trial statement. And it would, it would, it would, it would, it would be so unlikely that you'd have a person who fits who brings all that all those qualities together. That was a police officer, she had all that. And she had to testify in her case, because because they were going to convict her she didn't. So she had nothing to lose. And there's it's kind of like, I'll give an example just to go over some people's head. But like on Bali in the registry. The registry is a victimless crime, it's a regulatory scheme, and violating the registry. Like it my state that has to be willful or knowing that's a violation, of course, you have to be willfully and non compliance or non compliance. And you have the right in our state to appear before grand jury that's an absolute right as a target of a criminal charge, you have the right to appear a grand jury, most people don't put their clients or grand jury because they'll only takes eight of 12 to issue an indictment to issue a true bill. And so ZN anything you say a grand jury can be used against you Well, in the case of the registry, it took me a long time to convince attorneys that this is one where you can actually do it. Because if it's a technical violation where a person has been in compliance for the last seven years, and they reported in every 90 days, and they missed it because the sheriff was sitting there with a stopwatch and it went 12 or one of the 91st day and they went down and got a warrant. That doesn't show since there's the willful going element, it's difficult for the for the state to reach that high barrier of sure that the violation non compliance as well for knowing. So you bring that articulate person and if you've got somebody who's not tattooed from head to toe with screws and bolts of guts and everything else in their body, and you're going in and being directed about that, that's just the reality of what the jury is going to do is going to see I don't make the rules for life. But But you break a person at who's raised will be presents well, reasonably speaks well, and they say legislation mother jury, I do have a duty to register as a sex offender. I have faithfully complied with that obligation for the last seven years, I have to report it 90 every 90 days. That requires me to take off work. And I've done that beautifully. And I have been as compliant as I possibly possibly can be. They they have this system board where there's there's no reminders that come out, even though the law of the State of New Mexico requires reminders to be sent out. And I let it slip off my calendar, I calendar it rah rah failed to calendar it, and I went down on the 92nd day and they were waiting to arrest me, I am sorry this happened. And I will promise to you that I will I will develop a better system and it's not going to happen again. The worst thing that's going to happen is they're going to indict you. That is the absolute worst thing that's going to happen. There's also a very good chance they may know bill that that person because they see a human element, they see the overreach of the sheriff's department, they see the stopwatch of them just waiting with bated breath to prosecute someone. And a lot of those cases get don't build. So the worst case scenario is if you don't show up at Grand Jury, you're going to get true built. If you show up at Grand Jury, you may get true built. But you may not the chances are very good that you'll get it you'll get a Nobel. And so once lawyers finally understood that, more and more these cases that they're putting their, their their client on a grand jury, and they're having them tell the story of how they've been compliant. And we're winning those cases left and right. And the sheriff is getting the shares are becoming a little less happy about bringing these cases where they're sitting there waiting with a stopwatch because they're being shown to be who they are, which is looking for a problem. And they're they're trying to create a problem of a person who's been compliant, and they're looking for it. I got you moment. And we're showing that up to the jurors of this of this state that that's what their law enforcement resources they use for us to do. I got your moments.

There are there are cases where you can do it as limited circumstances. And again, this is one of those limited circumstances where the risk is worth the reward. And you don't have a victim. There's when when you have a victim crime or the victims there. They've testified at the grand jury, and they're waiting to see if the grand jury is going to indict. And the prosecutor in the victims advocates are waiting there. They're waiting. They're waiting to hear what the jurors are going to decide if they're going to get them justice. There's no victim but the registry. It's a paid, salaried person who's on staff and as a regulatory scheme, and there's nobody out there, it's going to go home disappointed if there's no indictment. I mean, of course the officers can be disappointed, but there's no victim, there is a whole different makeup dynamic in play. So lawyers out there, they're listening. Don't be afraid. grand juries can be your friend and limited circumstances. But as a rule, you would not want to put your client on a grand jury on most offenses, you would not want to do that.

Andy  1:23:57  
Right. Um, and then I guess we could to go back to the New York Times murder rate drops across the US but not in all large cities. This reports and provides different sightings along the way of how the crime rate has reduced over the last 30 and 40 years. And in a couple you know one offs here and there of different cities like Chicago, I think Chicago has come down but it has been a pretty heavy rise in the recent years. But otherwise, this article just covers about how much violent crime has gone down. I guess the other big point about this article is that they've increased the scope of what they consider to be a quote unquote sex crime. So sex crimes are up in reporting, which I think would be similar to how they've increased the the diagnosis of autism which is part of the contributing factors to the rise of the autism rates in the United States

Larry  1:24:47  
and around the world. Possibly, possibly but of this there are some cities Baltimore's and another one Chicago DC were violent crime has been up at as a as a general rule if you don't live in one's own cities. If you live on average America, you're safer now did you spit in any point of your life?

Andy  1:25:06  
Well, let me let me turn my head around and go those are lies like the person to the conference in 15 I guess it was

Larry  1:25:14  
I believe I remember that yes. So well perhaps they are but I don't see it that way. I I feel safer being alive today than any point my life

Andy  1:25:26  
do you possibly think that that's a wonder just from you living for 17 centuries or whatever it is your ages now that you have witnessed your own personal view of the world has changed that you just either don't care like not care but like you're not concerned by it maybe it's just your own personal bias that has changed that you think you're safer

Larry  1:25:48  
I just I just don't see the crime that people are our city has a higher crime rate in many cities but even within our crime rate that we have which is lower than it was at its peak in the in the in the 90s before story went down, but it has risen in recent years. I just don't see the the IC property crimes that are related to drugs to addictions, but I just don't see all that. I know we're on track to set a record number of homicides this year if the trend continues, but I just don't see that. I guess I just don't hang out the white circles to be around all these people but it's like as my brother who's but when I was visiting I said okay, crime is so bad. I said Do you know anyone who's ever been burglarized us it done not something you heard what he said no. I said what do you know anyone who's ever been right p said, I said you know anyone who's ever been physically assaulted? He said no. I said well then how is it that crime is so horrible? And you live in another county of 100,000 people and you know more than anybody that I know I mean, more people know him because of the uniqueness of FM and you don't know a soul who's been a victim of a burger you are violent crime. I said he's what Well, I know that just last week that the that they they robbed a bank and they beat up the manager and they said yes, but you didn't know those people did you? That's what we had. We had people getting banks getting robbed in the 70s and probably more so than today, where people got beat up and the managers got tied up and I said but but in terms of you don't know a soul has been a victim of crime. But yeah, you're so paranoid and you're thinking about wanting to have a security system put in it you can't afford to protect your gifts so forget something that has never happened to you and your entire life Do I have that correct? Yeah.

Andy  1:27:39  
Well let's

Larry  1:27:40  
and all his all his friends are the same way you know, they're just spooked out about something that hasn't happened and they're spending the got these ring doorbell apps and they can talk to people in their house and they feel so good when the when the doorbell rings I think they say oh kind of happy and they're watching their their work watching their their their What's up buddy goes with the yard I mean that they're just happy as a lark that they're doing that.

Andy  1:28:04  
So you know, a quick little story on that I bought, like there's an extension for my cameras that I bought that are super cheap cameras, but they now have little they have their stick on contact sensors so that I know when the door opens. And within maybe a week of me putting it on my back door. I'm at lunch. I'm just I just walked up the street to go to lunch. And I got a notice that my back door had opened and I was like, What in the possible How was like, I'm starting to freak out and I'm like, you know, I would probably see something on the camera because I don't have a camera towards the back. And I got home in the context sensor was on the floor. It just fell off.

Unknown Speaker  1:28:40  
My Harley sank I was like, Oh my god, but no nothing.

Unknown Speaker  1:28:47  
Alrighty, though,

Andy  1:28:50  
from NPR ex Dallas officer who killed a man in his own apartment is found guilty of murder. I still struggle in reading this article and hearing about the story as How did she not know but I guess just from being you know, you're a cop. You're at work all day, you're dealing with all kinds of crazy situations that cops might have to put up with. I don't know how you end up on the wrong floor. I don't how how something along the way doesn't trigger that you were in the wrong place that she then sees that there's an intruder in the house and she shoots the guy who was in his house. She was in the wrong place. She was the actual intruder. But that's that's the short version of the story, I guess.

Larry  1:29:26  
Yeah, this this story fascinated me because, you know, I'm I'm one for police accountability. And I'm wondering, I was wondering when this case went to trial I commend to the district attorney in Dallas for bringing this case to trial. and wondering you know, we've we've seen so many police killings, that by view, were not justified, the circumstances did not want their daily force, we see them shoot them off the sides of the mountains here. And my city, we've seen them shoot up on the floor in the back and Las Vegas hotel lobbies, been in the hallway, they weren't in the lobby. But we've seen we've seen all that. And I was wondering, okay, now, this is a police officer intruding into a man's home, who's minding his own business. And she tells him to freeze and to show his hands. And she blows him away, because he makes a sudden boom, of course, if someone's intruding your home, of course, you are going to make a sudden move because you got to try to protect yourself. And I was wondering if that would cross the line of where the we could actually get a conviction? And the answer from the jurors analysis. Yes, it did cross the line. So we do know now that that that the older you can shoot them off the mountain, you can shoot when they're crawling backwards to your voice, you can shoot them with the have a steak knife, we know that all those things are justified, you can give a rough ride, you can choke them out, and all the things that cops have gotten away with, you can shoot a teenager was with look, one, whatever his name was, we know all that. But there there is finally a boundary, you can't go into a man's home and shoot him dead in his own home and be and be exonerated. So I think we now have established her as Olympic where's the place can can be where they will at least be held accountable.

Andy  1:31:04  
We saw we often talk about this idea that they have, you know, it's not an infinite number of alternatives. She could have backed up she could have you know, it says in the article that she lived just a short distance away from the from the station. She could have backed up, she could have called in she could have just like, you know, guarded guarded the door to make sure that the perpetrator doesn't leave quote unquote, her apartment, and I keep saying all that knowing that it's not her apartment, but she had alternatives that hey, other cops could have come in and they could been like, Dude, why are you in check his apartment and like, this is my apartment, she lives downstairs. Oh, and everything would have just gone away.

Larry  1:31:41  
So I feels I agree with you. And I feel bad because that's the downside of they stand your ground laws, they encourage people. I'm not saying you should have to flee every situation. Right. But self defense as a defense that is asserted when you have no choice. And the point you're baking is that she had choices. But Texas is a big standard ground state because we don't want to hold on to to rule the day here. We want good law abiding citizens. We want them to stand their ground, and they don't have to retreat. But this is the this illuminates the downside of standard ground. Had she backed off. Had she called for backup. The man would be alive today. And she would have realized that she could have apologize to him. Sir. I'm terribly sorry. I entered your home. I intruded on you. I'm sorry, all this police power came in here. I'm sorry. We scared you to death. Oh, this is awful. But she doesn't do that. And so I did sit through the trial. I'm assuming that the jurors did justice that the evidence was there. I mean, we all know that the bullet came from her weapon. And we know we know that. So but now quickly, once you got convicted, I quickly shifted gears because at that point, defense comes out in me and the defense defense attorney, his job is to minimize the damage of the sentence. And the defense did a darn good job on that they they kept her sentence down to 10 years, which is pretty good.

Unknown Speaker  1:33:12  
Sure. Because she could have gotten knife,

Larry  1:33:14  
correct. I think she could have

Andy  1:33:16  
should go to God, I think it was a minimum of five two life is what she could have gotten

Larry  1:33:20  
yet. So and that's all right. And

Andy  1:33:23  
she's going to serve at least six I think.

Larry  1:33:25  
So they did a splendid job. And this is what we claim we want. as advocates, we want an individual to not have one event. Color their entire life. She apparently lived a good life. Yeah, she made a mistake. And she got held accountable. She was convicted. But all of her life was taken into account in its totality. And 10 years seems like not an overly harsh sentence and not an overly lenient sentence. If she's going to serve six years, she'll think real hard about pulling the gun on so what I'm telling them to freeze on their own house. I'm sure she'll give that consideration next time. Yeah.

Andy  1:34:06  
Let's move over to the la times where we're going to talk about bail reform California voters are divided over bail reform polls find this feels scuzzy to me, Larry, because there's a lot of talk in this article about the bail companies are are doing the sponsoring of getting the referendum to pull this back. So that's obviously they're in a slanted position where this is impacting them directly. That they're then you know, it's a conflict of interest. I guess that's what I'm trying to say that they are driving the the public opinion of getting the petition signed to get this as a referendum so they can have bail again.

Larry  1:34:43  
Well, I think it's I think it's spectacular that it said that the the polls are showing it roughly tied. I think it's spectacular, that there's that much because the law that that that that this is seeking time do was signed by form Governor Brown last year.

Unknown Speaker  1:35:02  
Yes.

Larry  1:35:04  
So this is this is the industry striking back saying well, you know, basically, you put us out of business, right?

Andy  1:35:14  
So where Where's government's role in pushing back against, like a big business, big industry kind of thing. versus their, their own personal objectives of getting rid of this system, which disproportionately hampers people of lower means?

Larry  1:35:31  
Well, if they're you've heard, we've talked about this before, I'm I'm kind of torn on this, because the the systems that replace it turned out turns out not so baseless, spectacular either because of the of the of the rubric they use to determine the tool that they use to assess people. They end up having to go through these hoops to get out of jail. And oftentimes, they're losing their jobs because they don't have the opportunity to post post bail because they have to go through the hoops of determining if they're a threat to the community, and what level of supervision and who's going to be responsible for them. And when did we have a slotted and intensive pre trial supervision available? Some people sit we have, for example, here we have, we have we have they call it what it sounds I don't work in direct reference representing defense on the front side much anymore, but we have we have a system where they're, they're committed to the jail, but they go out on home confinement. And and and it takes a long time to go through all the assessment to be on home confinement. And by then you've lost everything.

Andy  1:36:38  
Yeah, that is that. Are you is that how home house arrest there? Is there some sort of pre trial house arrest? Yes, yes.

Larry  1:36:44  
Yes. So what level what level of pre trial detention they're going to put on you? What level of pre trial supervision I misspoke, what level of conditions to assure the safety of the community that are going to impose on you. Remember, you're presumed innocent,

Andy  1:37:00  
right? why she's gonna suggest we should do something like the TSA Pre check. So you should get pre approved to be on house arrest.

Larry  1:37:08  
Right. But why should you? Why should you have all these ridiculous conditions imposed on you, when you're presumed innocent? Why should you have to do all this stuff, you just simply have an accusation hanging over your head. So I'm not I'm I recognize the horrors of cash bought and how it discriminates against people like me. But I'm also aware of the systems that replaces the morals that they bring in, people get been trapped in detention. And they can't get out. Right. So so this is this could be interesting to see how the vote goes other people.

Andy  1:37:41  
But Larry, it just, you know, you wouldn't like the the prosecutors are so overworked that they wouldn't try and charge you with a crime that there isn't enough evidence to support so you must be guilty if they've charged you. Absolutely. Why are we even talking about this anymore? So please clear the air so someone doesn't take us out of context, Please clear the air

Larry  1:38:00  
so so well, that's that's what people who who have never been involved with, with the criminal justice system, I would say most of our listeners have have have believed that the prosecution The cops are overworked and underpaid, short staffed and have all the disadvantages. And it's only when you see how well resourced they are where they can fly people in from all over the country to testify in a civil comfortable proceeding, and spend 10s of thousands of dollars over a two week extravaganza, then you realize that maybe the system system short staffed when you see these to catch a predator, this thing that we talked about at the beginning of the episode, you start figuring out that maybe they're just not a short staffed, as I say,

Andy  1:38:41  
tell me this it from you working on the government side of things, when when the police want to bring in those kind of resources. Does that then pull resources away from some other budget item? Do they just then say, Hey, we had these run over? So we need to get more funding next year? Or does someone then have to go well, shoot, we don't get to buy pens and paper this coming? Because we brought in this expert witness these extra times, it feels like it would just be something that you don't really budget for gas, because you just have to have all that you need. So is it does that make sense? You're doing

Larry  1:39:12  
it? It's both It does. It does cause responsible decision makers to to question whether or not they justified but if you're an elected to the legislature, try voting against a supplemental request from Department of Corrections, when they've run over budget and use too much overtime. Tell me how that plays out for your political career vote vote no one a supplemental request and see what happens.

Andy  1:39:37  
Yeah, I know that Brian Kemp here like excoriated Stacey Abrams over her voting against a bill that would you think enhanced restrictions against our people. And when you actually, like drove down, she didn't agree with the policy show she she voted against whatever it was, and I don't remember the details. And that's not really the point just to bring some sort of names to the to the example. And so that then you see ads running well, Stacy Abrams voted for sex offenders, you know, to decrease your safety in your neighborhoods or some you know, silliness like that. But it's completely mischaracterized that the enhancements wouldn't have improved public safety at all. And so yeah, just to answer your question about your political careers that you know, someone's going to use that record and then throw you under the bus and mischaracterize potentially mischaracterize what you voted for or against?

Larry  1:40:28  
Well, but you were talking about in terms of a budget, so I was talking about in terms of supplemental, so you go over budget, you'd have to go back and ask for a supplemental, and they do it at all levels of government, county commissions are faced with supplemental request from from from their agencies and states are at the federal level. You know, Trump could not do supplementals for the military fast enough, after he got an office, he requested supplemental probation. But try voting against one day supplement request. What saw the Department of Corrections in New Mexico City, for example, they have 100 veterans budget, which is way more than that. They go over budget. So they get to March, April, and they see that they're going to spend 200 million, then they request a supplemental, they asked the lawmakers for supplemental appropriate vote against that find out what happens to your political career.

Andy  1:41:15  
Right. And that's only the example that I was making. Ah, alright, well, then, I hope you did your homework on this, uh, this court this. I don't even know what to call this. It's in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Wisconsin. Did you have time to do some research on this on the GPS thing in Wisconsin?

Larry  1:41:35  
I glanced at the complaint. And I think that would be a great one for us to have Adele Nicholas on. Oh, have we had her as a guest?

Andy  1:41:43  
No, I don't even recognize the name to be honest with you.

Larry  1:41:46  
Well, we've had we've had her own Arsenal in action. So you've you facilitated her. Our parents, she has been almost more than once on our selection calls. But she would be a great one for this. This is her Mark Weinberg's case, they're based in Illinois. But they they are alleging that those people who are or who are required to do GPS after they've done their time, that that's unconstitutional, and that the courts are, are are ruling that ruling that around the country because the US Supreme Court setting Grady and 2015 a case on North Carolina that correlates and search and to just arbitrarily engage in a search and seizure is it's too much that's not that's that's not a reasonable interpretation of the Constitution. So this will be a great thing to have Adele on to talk about.

Andy  1:42:39  
Very good. And this came to us. So we got a new patron and wanted us to cover this particular issue. And just in my reading of it, and I'm like Bill, stupid lay person, it just looks like hey, these people can some of them were convicted a very long time ago. And then they've added these extra quote unquote, civil regulatory scheme stuff to wear these people have to wear GPS monitors, and they can't do that.

Larry  1:42:59  
That's I'm looking forward because I want to do the same litigation here. We have a statutory requirement here that, that it doesn't go, it doesn't extend beyond your supervision, but but anyone who's on a period of post prison supervision, which we call parole, they they have to wear, they have to be attached to GPS for the entire duration of their parole, which can be anywhere from a minimum of five all the way to life. And it doesn't, it doesn't have any individualized determination of the necessity and the benefit is just by statute. And the Massachusetts Supreme Court ruled this year that a statute like that, without a differentiation without due process without individual analysis is unconstitutional. So I want to go into to this challenge say that our statute is unconstitutional. So GPS for the for the patron is on our radar. It's a big issue. And it's it's big business. There's a lot of money made off GPS.

Unknown Speaker  1:43:56  
Certainly that. And I know I

Larry  1:43:59  
know, where our capitalist people are in favor of capitalism working right.

Andy  1:44:02  
Well, certainly. So I mean, if you can divert people from being in jail or prison and have them with GPS, right, isn't that what we're we would shoot for? I mean, you at least out you're not inside?

Larry  1:44:13  
Well, it's that's what we're actually doing. But that's not what happened.

Andy  1:44:16  
Sorry, that's me baiting you like just like, like leading us right down that path.

Larry  1:44:20  
That's what we're actually doing. If GPS was being used in lieu of incarceration, I would be all for it. But that's not the way GPS is being utilized.

Andy  1:44:33  
Is there anything else that we need to cover before we head out of here, there?

Larry  1:44:37  
Now we've been on too long.

Unknown Speaker  1:44:38  
We have We're at 145. Now.

Larry  1:44:41  
That's right. And nobody's gonna listen to the whole 145.

Andy  1:44:44  
I seriously, I seriously would think that almost everybody will listen to all of it there. I believe that to be true.

Larry  1:44:51  
All right. Well, how do people how do people reach us at how do we make this podcast grow? We got it. We're, we're not quite up to that doubling the patrons by the end of we're supposed to be at 100 by the end of the year, so we only got just shy of three months to do it.

Andy  1:45:04  
Right. And I'm pretty certain that if we get you jumping off the bridge on episode 100, we would be able to double our patronage by them. Alrighty, though,

Larry  1:45:12  
that'd be that'd be a sacrifice worth taking.

Andy  1:45:16  
All right, well, first of all, to find the website, you need to talk to Al Gore and have him help you learn how to do a Google search that you could find registry matters dot CEO. And I'll let you do the phone number because you know it by heart Finally,

Larry  1:45:29  
nobody calls anymore though. Sounds true 477472 to 74477.

Andy  1:45:37  
And I we do have one listener named tech addict, I'm not sure if he responds on the website or emails me directly. I think he does it off the website, but he sends emails and articles all the time. And that is a registry matters cast at gmail. com. And we love all of our patrons. We love all of our listeners, but especially the patrons and how do they support the podcast? How do you become a patron and get all the perks and holsters and fridge magnets

Larry  1:46:01  
while you go to www if anybody uses it anymore. patreon.com slash register matters. And it's PATREON.

Andy  1:46:12  
Super Duper fantastic, Larry, as always, I still very much appreciate your time and your knowledge and your expertise and all of that. And I hope you have a great weekend.

Larry  1:46:20  
Well, thank you and it's a pleasure to join you. I hope to be back next week. Thank you so much.

Andy  1:46:25  
I'll talk to you soon. Bye. Good night.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai