Transcript of RM124: Bashing Liberals

Listen to RM124: Bashing Liberals

Andy 0:12
Recording live from FYP Studios, east and west, transmitted across the internet. This is Episode 124 of registry matters. Larry, I have one thing that I want to tell you before we get anything going. You ready?

Larry 0:25
I’m ready.

Andy 0:26
I have complete and total control over this podcast. And that’s just the end of the story.

Larry 0:31
Well I’m glad someone does ‘cuz I know I don’t.

Andy 0:34
Well, that’s good. Because I mean, I can’t even delegate this one out. I’m not even going to ask any extra parties, any of the 57 states if they’re in charge, I am in complete control.

Larry 0:45
Well, I think I think I’ve heard that similar language over the preceding week.

Andy 0:52
That’s my point. Did you break any tires this week?

Larry 0:53
I did not. I did pick up another grocery order at the click list through the click list process. It went smooth. I’m sold on this. I don’t know if I’ll ever do major shopping again in the stores

Andy 1:08
but you didn’t catch any tires? That’s the question, it wasn’t another $300 grocery bill?

Larry 1:14
No didn’t do that. I can’t believe that I can’t spot a piece of metal sticking up in an asphalt parking lot. That’s ridiculous.

Andy 1:26
Maybe you need new glasses.

Larry 1:28
I just got them five years ago.

Andy 1:30
That may be time for you to adjust them ever so slightly.

Larry 1:34
I’m not having any problem.

Andy 1:35
Is this going to be another COVID-19 show?

Larry 1:39
It seems like that that’s the dominating force to be reckoned with all of the news is leading off and then significant segments of the news and then with the courts being on reduced operations. There’s not a lot coming out of courts. Anything that’s in the courts has to do with the with the pandemic it’s related to prison release with a election postponements, it has to do with everything related to the pandemic and then the flood of lawsuits, it’s going to be coming afterwards for people who, who are harmed and it could have been possibly saved. I mean, this is just the beginning of what we’re going to be dealing with over this pandemic.

Andy 2:16
That is a question I’ve wanted to ask you. Of course, I realized that you’re not a lawyer, you’re not a constitutional lawyer, bla bla, bla bla bla, people have a constitutional right to a speedy trial. How does that play into the fact that the courts are shut down?

Larry 2:28
Well, we’re gonna have to have this be litigated to find out because the, like the courts are taking a handoff-ish approach. For example, I believe it was the Legacy Church here in Albuquerque, it’s one of the large mega churches, filed a lawsuit saying that they shouldn’t have been closed out and forgive me if I’ve got the wrong church, but it was one of the mega churches and the federal judge just rejected that this past Thursday or Friday that it was Public Health takes paramount importance. So, the question we’re going to have to have answered is that your constitutional right to a speedy trial, does that go away when we have circumstances beyond everyone’s control. Clearly, I think we would all admit that if we’re in social distancing, and the courts can’t operate, that you really can’t blame the prosecution for not bringing the person to trial. And that’s what that’s designed to protect is a person languishing at the hands of a prosecution that’s not ready to go forward. But if the prosecution can’t go forward, I don’t know how we can hold them accountable. But then what’s the balancing the remedy? What’s the remedy for people who, whose speedy trial right is being violated? ‘Course the easy one is to release them from custody, right?

Andy 3:46
Right. And that’s certainly where that goes. You could have maybe detain them, book them gotten their fingerprints, DNA swab, whatever all those things are and then said, we’ll call you when things progress after we’re done dealing with this outbreak.

Larry 4:00
Well, I mean that I don’t see a lot of creativity on how this is being handled. You know, we’ve talked about on previous podcasts about using the GPS monitor, which you’re so fond of, for, for using it for, for graduated-type sanctions and for a more individually tailored situation, we could do the same thing on this speedy trial. Since people are presumed innocent under the Constitution, we could come to them and tell them, we have an option for you that we would like to propose that that you waive your right to a speedy trial in exchange for being released on home confinement if they’re in custody. And I just about bet you people that are facing the ravaging, spread of COVID-19 in a correctional facility get the opportunity to waive their speedy trial, to be on community custody, I’d just about bet almost everyone will accept that.

Andy 4:53
Probably it’s just that one day of freedom.

Larry. 4:55
We would get to use some of your famous technology that you’re so fond of.

Andy 4:57
Woohoo, I am about some technology, but going back to question I asked you about COVID. I mean, everything that I listened to which goes across politics goes across religion goes across tech. There is no news, other than things that are related, tangentially related being impacted by COVID.

Larry 5:13
Well, that’s the situation we’re in here. I mean, we could, we could talk about recent decisions, but there’s not anything really being decided that’s coming across my radar of significance. If we talk about the problems with the registry. I mean, other than existing problems we’ve been talking about for 123 episodes, the problems now we’re dealing with are related to COVID-19. And how are they handling that? I mean, anything that we talk about has a connection to it with people that are afraid that if they don’t report to their designated officer, at the designated time, they’re going to be prosecuted. All this stuff is related to the pandemic. So if we don’t talk about the pandemic, it really limits what we can talk about.

Andy 5:58
Well, there you go. Well, so This one will not be at all COVID related and I think that this might be roughly the, I don’t wanna say it’s the only one tonight, but coming from and the Texas lawyer, a.k.a a judge in Texas was sanctioned for displaying the rainbow flag. Was she wrong? This is a like I think I don’t even think this was like a narrowly elected judge in Texas. And we don’t know how big it is. But she displays the rainbow flag in her courtroom. And someone has decided to be, I’m just gonna call it for how I see it Larry, being a bigot and suing to have that removed, sanction whatever the right words are. Do I have that semi right, characterized?

Larry 6:41
I do. I do think that’s about as good a description, the, the judicial, what they call the judicial standards Commission here in New Mexico, the judicial review commission there in Texas was made aware of this as a complaint of some sort and under their canons of judicial Conduct they, they felt like that the display of the flag would tend to cause litigants to wonder if they had an impartial court. And I didn’t feel, line in pre-show discussion, that we really have enough information to know what the display consisted of. We’re talking about: What’s the size of the flag? Where was it displayed? Was it on the desk? Was it on the wall? Was it a large flag? Was it a small flag? Was it a replica? You know, I just don’t feel like we know enough about it. But what I can say is that when you’re on the job, you don’t have unlimited rights to free speech and expression. You are on the clock when you’re in the courtroom. When you’re a judge, you’re still on someone’s clock.

Andy 7:42
Definitely, and you know, I’ve heard people debate this from the point of view of like, in a school if you were, you know, I’ve heard stories of maybe a Muslim kid being bullied. And then they go into the guidance counselor to try and get some sort of relief, some sort of safe zone and you walk in there and there’s a super-duper big cross on the wall, you may not feel, so like you’re in safe harbor if the person you’re going to try and get relief from is potentially in the same camp as the people that are bullying you for having a different faith than they are. I’m not trying to pick sides. I’m not trying to say who’s right or wrong. But you may feel odd in that regard.

Larry 8:19
I would certainly say that you would feel odd. I think that when anytime you’re in the majority, it takes a special effort to be considerate how people will perceive and feel things that are not in the majority. And that runs across the board for being in the religious majority, being in the ethnic majority. When the Christian, when they’re in any type of ceremony and some are not sure after COVID-19 they’ll be so fond of holding hands and coming together in a circle. But they have no hesitation to ask you, “Would you please bow your head and lets hold hands together.” But then at the end of that, at the conclusion of that, if there was a person who was not a Christian, if they were to say, “Okay, now let’s do my religious thing” those very same people would say, “No, I don’t believe that way.” And they would be very intolerant and it’s hard for them to even relate to because in their world of experience, in their life of experience, everybody’s a Christian.

Andy 9:20
Yes. And you know, it’s funny that the comments you were making, I think it was last week at the end of the show, when you did your really, really poor imitation. The point that was you were making was an excellent point, but we were trying to pick on you about the accent.

Larry 9:34
Well, I probably could do it better if I practice more. I was trying to make that point when someone is different from you, you already have your skepticism level higher. If you go into a hotel that’s American owned, and the people look very similar to you and they talk very similar to you, your reaction is going to be a lot different than when you go when they have the foreign accent. And Americans’ look, there’s nothing that describes what an American look like because we’re a diverse country, but in your sphere of who surrounds you, you have your idea of what Americans look like, at least many people do. When you go into what you go into a Middle Eastern owned hotel and the person, for example, if they were dressed a little differently, and they speak a little differently and they were to say, “No, ma’am, I can’t rent to you because it violates my religious beliefs.” You would not be very tolerant of that. Because you’d say, Well, wait a minute, your religion doesn’t belong in this business. You would be you’d be indignant. I don’t think many people could honestly say that if a person said I won’t carry you in my taxi cab because you’re not accompanied by a man, and my religion… You just wouldn’t tolerate that. So that’s the point we’re making is that we tend to be more tolerant of what we understand. The person who goes to the guidance counselor and sees many symbols of Christianity, they probably would be a little bit hesitant to talk to the Christian because they don’t they wouldn’t think that the Christian could identify with what they’re feeling.

Andy 11:09
Well, and then back to this, personally for me, if I walked into a courtroom and saw that flag, I would be like, this person is a compassionate person that understands multiple people being oppressed and picked on. Perhaps I will get leniency here. To me that’s what it would imply to me in seeing that flag. Now, that might not be at all how this judge actually acts, but that’s what it would indicate to me.

Larry 11:33
But remember, that’s the way I would perceive it. But remember, when you walk into a courtroom, if you watch People’s Court, remember that there’s two parties, there’s two sides to the case. Remember when the police walk it if it’s a criminal case, or if it’s a civil case, remember the other side walks in, they’re supposed to have that same feeling of impartiality. It’s not just you as a defendant in a criminal action. It’s supposed to feel like the judges. Every party to that action is supposed to feel like the court is totally neutral and that’s what a court is supposed to be. Now, humans can’t be totally neutral because we’re humans.

Andy 12:05
Yeah, you talk about this sort of thing all the time of. “Don’t walk in there with bolts and screws in your face.” And, you know, certainly people in the military, like they often have a tattoo on the upper part of their arm. But if you have tattoos on your face, like all these things color how people perceive you.

Larry 12:21
That is correct. And and so the other litigate may not feel the same way. A litigant that’s coming from us from a more conservative viewpoint. In particular, if it’s a law enforcement officer, they might say, have some pejorative term that I don’t think I need to say on the podcast, and they would think, possibly think that they’re not going to get a fair shake. And I think that’s what the judicial commission was looking at is, does this color the flavor of the courtroom to where the impartiality of the of the presiding judge is in doubt?

Andy 12:52
And I don’t know how much we touched on the person that, like there’s another judge in the same office, whatever the right word is, and he is of Irish descent and has an Irish flag. How is that, how is that significantly different? Are you just showing that you have Irish pride? Irish people I think are known for being like, huge drinkers. So is that what that implies?

Larry 13:14
Now I’m not sure, I’d want to know that that flag is displayed the same way the same size. And I’d also want to know that they were talking about the flag of a nation. Ireland is a nation, right?

Andy 13:27
As far as I know. Yes.

Larry 13:29
At least it’s a province of government if it’s not a full nation. But I’m not sure that there is a flag of a nation that we’re talking about here. Oh, this is this is a flag and I don’t even want to try to describe it because I’m going to get hate mail if I do. So why don’t you describe what the rainbow flag is?

Andy 13:48
Oh, well, the rainbow flag is I mean, we have a picture of it in the show notes but it’s a, so it has looks like red, orange, yellow, green, blue and purple, which I think is just the roygbiv almost. That is often how people that are part of the LGBTQ, and figure out all the other letters that may go along with that, they represent that. So it’s gay pride. And that’s just constantly referred to as the as the gay pride flag, something like that.

Larry 14:15
So I think you’ve done a fine job explaining it

Andy 14:19
Just send all the hate mail to me and that’s crackpot at

Larry 14:26
So, it’s been around for a long time, I remember when I was quite, quite a bit younger, and I don’t know if it has evolved with the evolving standards of decency, but I’m gonna go to Wikipedia and see what it says. What does it mean and that way, love who you want, when you want without feeling like an outcast. Love is beautiful no matter what form it takes. That’s what I’m seeing here on the meaning of the flag.

Andy 14:53
Sure, you know, and to move on to the next article, though. I am unable to pull it up at the moment. Can you, uh, so the title of it is from the crime report. It says Don’t Let Criminal Records Bar Health Crisis Relief Civil Rights Group Says. Do you have that one pulled up that you can cover?

Larry 15:09
I do. So this is from the crime report. A dozen civil rights and advocacy organizations, including the American Civil Liberties Union and the Leadership Conference of civil rights and civil human rights have asked Congress to take immediate action to remove barriers based on arrest or conviction history for small business owners seeking COVID-19 relief under the Cares Act. And, and so like the payroll Protection Program, the $376 billion dollars that’s supposed to protect payrolls, apparently it says this is administered by the Small Business Administration and I’m qualifying it with apparently because I have not verified this myself. But apparently, either there have been denials or fear of denials for businesses, because they do ask for ownership, I have completed the application for our business and they do ask ownership information. And, and the fear is that these businesses are being excluded because of the existing prohibition on, on SBA assistance for people with certain criminal records. And if you’re protecting payrolls, I’m just really confused. If you’ve got a business that employs whatever number of people that it employs, and you’re trying to keep those people alive, and keep them on a payroll so that they’re not out holding a 10 cup. Why would the owners be as relevant? I mean, why would the ownership be significant? This is about getting hands in to our former employees pockets, and if they don’t have this money, most businesses I’m told can operate anywhere from about 16 days to about a month and a half with their cash reserves and then they’re out of business.

Andy 16:57
Mhmmm. Yeah so how does the owner of the business impact they have 1, 2, 5, 100 employees. What’s the difference?

Larry 17:03
Well, that’s what I’m trying to figure out if, the way when I did the application, they ask you for your payroll documentation for the calendar year 2019. And then it was based on 2.5 times your payroll, your monthly payroll costs and adding your payroll, your fringe benefits your taxes related to payroll, health insurance, and those things they ask you for that information. And then you could borrow 2.5 times that and then it’s theoretically forgivable if you meet the requirements for, for either recalling laid off workers or not laying anyone off during this pandemic. And I’m just wondering how it serves society’s interest to have these people because you’re actually punishing the employees. If, if they if they’re not allowed to, if their owners are not allowed to have this help. It’s not going into the owner’s pocket, this was going into payroll. Now the owner might be on the payroll but, but if they wanted to, if they were that vindictive and venomous, they should have said, if it’s if it’s a business owned by one person, that person has one of these exclusions, but this is apparently applying to everyone who’s on that payroll.

Andy 18:11
Tell me, tell me what you think about what the origin of that is. And I think I’ve asked you this before, but is that I mean, there must be some page or you know, some staffer that has some level of templates that they just copy and paste stuff into. And then they write details around the edges about stuff. And this just shows up as a part of a default template to go, “Well, these people don’t qualify because these are the worst people and you should have thought about that before you went in and committed your crime and started a business and hired a dozen, two dozen people.”

Larry 18:41
Well, I’m not sure what this is in the Cares Act, I’m thinking from what I’m hearing is that it’s because of the SBA’s existing limitations. It’s not actually it, they didn’t actually drop this template into the Cares Act. Now, again, I haven’t read the 900 pages of the thing, but from what I’ve heard on the talk shows is that this is something that’s just, because that’s SBA’s existing policy. We’ve probably in our listening audience got some people out there who own small businesses. And I think we should extend this invitation to them, that if you’re in a situation, please email us and give them the real email address, because I’d like to hear if they’ve been, and if so what they were told was their reason, but, but that’s the rumor out there. And this is this whole story is about don’t exclude these people because of a record. I mean, this is about helping everyone. They are Americans.

Andy 19:37
Yeah, I think so. But check, you can either go to and there’s a contact form on the website, or Yes, certainly, we would love to bring you on the program. And you can talk about how this is impacting you in a, certainly in a negative fashion, that you can’t do payroll. Tell me tell me this though, Larry, that if someone were to, let’s try and say they were going to, you know, fudge the system a little bit and they have a spouse, they have a brother, and they’re not going to have anything to do with the business, but they create the business in that person’s name just so that they are not like, you know, registrant owned, how far over the line of being fraud does that cover, does it go?

Larry 20:18
I’m not sure that would be fraud at all. I mean people, people give ownership interest of businesses all the time to spouses, but according to this article, one in three Americans have some sort of criminal record. And those with records have an unemployment rate five times higher than average. And, and the SBA is has not said for sure, to this report, it says an announcement of the funding, the small business administration did not specify whether existing rules, blocking help to those who, who did not demonstrate good character, including those with criminal records would be waived, so that they’re hanging their hat on the existing rules since they’re the administrator of the program.

Andy 21:01
And is that just is that uh, is that a public private partnership? Or is that just straight up an entity of the government? The SBA.

Larry 21:08
I believe the SBA, I believe it’s an entity of the government created long time ago back in the 50s or 60s. It’s been around a long time.

Andy 21:16
Like the executive branch that the head of that gets appointed by presidents when that term comes about, or?

Larry 21:22
yeah, I’m not sure about that. But I know that the SBA has been around all my life. And I’ve been around for a while.

Andy 21:27
but no doubt. And so now you can take notes that this is something that Larry didn’t know right off the top of his head. So that’s impressive that finally after 124 episodes got you to go, Hmm, don’t really know.

Larry 21:40
Form in 1953. So I’ve been around for a while, it formed in 1953. And it’s a United States government agency that provides support to entrepreneurs, small businesses, according to Wikipedia.

Andy 21:55
right. And, you know, I still say that that’s a trustworthy source. It will end up with some garbage sometimes, but it usually like turns around and gets fixed. I remember maybe it was somewhere during Bush Jr.’s term, people would go eff with that page a lot. And they eventually had to, like lock the page from people making updates. And anyway, there’s a whole like hierarchy of people trusting people trusting people before you can go edit high profile kinds of pages. If we make a Larry profile page, no one’s going to mess with it, because no one cares.

Larry 22:24
So that’s true. But yes, this will be tragic if these folks employed and businesses owned by anyone with a record are not able to be retained because of this prohibition. And, and clearly, a lot of people are going to be delighted to have the loan forgiven. But the alternative would be that the people would be either on the street or on public assistance or on some sort of other. You know, it’s like, if the business got two to four weeks worth of reserves, these people I mean, we’ve been shut down pretty much for at least a month in most states, right?

Andy 22:58
Correct. Um, and god I just had a thought I just had a thought and it disappeared. Yep, it’s gone. Sorry.

Larry 23:05
That’s cuz you because you got old timers.

Andy 23:07
I know right. All right coming over from courthouse news, private immigration prisons take away prisoners homemade face masks. I can speak to personal experience that when you have someone that has maybe some, some body funk about them that you’ll like wrap a T-shirt around your face. And obviously now with COVID again, that you would do kinda sort of anything, maybe would just lay there on your rack all day on your bunk and just like leave your face stuck in your pillow all day to help try and filter out whatever you can. So people are cutting up T-shirts, they’re trying to do whatever they can. And then of course, the prison guards go in and say no, can’t do that. Take that crap away.

Larry 23:47
And what’s the problem with that?

Andy 23:48
Well, you know, you’re kind of in tight quarters, you’re kind of confined and I don’t think that I would want to get sick. You know, I knew that I was getting a six-year sentence and I you know, it was going to be a maximum of and hopefully less, turned out not but I also didn’t want to get any extra things while I was gone you know perhaps like staph infections or any you know food poisoning or lose a tooth and then also COVID-19.

Larry 24:12
well this is sad and I’m trying to poke a little fun at a sad situation but if you read the article thoroughly it looks like that they offered them a mask, but they have to sign a waiver. Is this the right article?

Andy 24:28
Yes, it is. They were signing making them sign a waiver that if they did catch it that they wouldn’t sue. And just some garbage. So that’s I mean, that’s one of those of, I can’t remember the word that I got from the…

Larry 24:40
Hobson’s Choice.

Andy 24:41
Yes, Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, when you have two impossible choices. So don’t sign the waiver, don’t get a mask, sign the waiver and get a mask, like that’s garbage.

Larry 24:48
Well, this is a prison in the Houston area. So this is for illegal, for immigrants. This is one of the network of prisons we have to hold people who, who can’t be releases or are being for for ICE. The Otay Mesa Detention Center. That’s the name of it. And private prison company Core Civic, formerly known as Corrections Corp of America operates the Otay Mesa. And it’s, it’s sad that they won’t let them use homemade protection. And then if you look at the picture, if that’s indicative of how crowded the place is, there would be no social distancing there.

Andy 25:30
Now that looks more like an intake holding kind of photo. Because I mean, they’ve got like aluminum, something, maybe those are even like blankets, perhaps, that doesn’t look like, that looks like a temporary place before they put them into the general population. But we did see videos, pictures, like what was it over the summertime of the kids in cages? And they were not they were not in anything. You know, they weren’t like in dorm rooms or in cells. They were like in cages, almost on the floor. That could totally be what that is.

Larry 25:57
So yeah, this would be but even if this is an intake you, you’ve got quite a crowd of people there. It kind of, I mean, I know when we when we say that Americans are not very compassionate. As we go through the articles tonight I’ll be able to say this is what I’m talking about. We’re not very compassionate. But whether or not they’re here, legally or illegally, they’re entitled not to a death sentence.

Andy 26:24
And they’re entitled to be treated like humans too because I think they are humans. I’m pretty I’m pretty sure what that might be sketchy, but I’m pretty sure they’re humans.

Larry 26:31
So I would say the same thing about the people in ICE detention that I’ve said about the people in regular correctional facilities, we should be doing everything we possibly can to cut these populations, because that’s the only way you’d have any hope of distancing would be to cut the population. And thats the only way you’d have the hope of being able to provide supplies and improve sanitation is that you can’t be running something at full steam. And even in the case of one the articles we’re gonna get to 230 percent of capacity. But we just, you can’t do that. But we’re doing it and we’re not taking the bold actions that are necessary and there’s going to be a significant price paid and loss of life.

Andy 27:14
Ah, man, oh man, I have a vision of what it’s going to look like. As we start to reopen things here. Maybe in the next week or two weeks that you’ll go to a restaurant and they will remove something off half the tables, they’ll block off, maybe half of the booths, something along those lines. So that you will obviously keep your distance and then waiters and servers and waitresses, they will stand a certain amount back. You would have to envision that they would do something identical to that to prisons to keep people safe. And this is you voluntarily going to an establishment to have them put food in your face. But here’s a place where you are detained and you cannot leave and you can’t do anything to get separation. They would have to release at least half of the people, if not whatever that number is larger if they are exceeding 100% of capacity

Larry 28:01
And, that is clearly not going to happen. The politics won’t allow it to happen. And so we’re going to, we’re going to end up with, with loss, unnecessarily loss of life. And I can’t even begin to predict the numbers but you’re seeing some exponential growth of the spread in some prison systems. I think one of the articles says it doubled or tripled overnight.

Andy 28:24
And then these are also people that probably wouldn’t be counted properly, because, you know, they’ll just sort of disappear into somebody’s book that doesn’t really get tracked. I mean, a place like, you know, we get articles from them all the time. Who am I thinking of the appeal is one of the places that maybe they would come up but you know, that doesn’t make any level of mainstream media to for anybody to give a poop about it.

Larry 28:50
So the next article is from New York, why don’t we combine that one with the governor of the other state thats also said she’s not going to do anything dramatic either so that way I can bash the liberals together.

Andy 29:04
Very good. Um, well, but the one that we do have next is from the New York Times about the Doctor.

Larry 29:09
Okay, yeah I jumped ahead.

Andy 29:11
That’s cool so but this one is from the New York Times it says the Miami police. Oh wait. Yeah yeah, yeah, so the Miami police chief promised an investigation after video showed Dr. Armin Henderson being handcuffed outside his home on Friday. This is a black Doctor who tests homeless people for Coronavirus. And the way the video runs it is he’s like organizing what looks like just kind of an unmarked box van or whatever. And he’s walking back and forth and someone called the police that there’s a black man like doing something with a van. And so the cop comes by and he’s like, “Hey, what are you doing?” There’s no audio on it. And eventually the cop gets out and handcuffs the guy, detains him and he’s a doctor that’s trying to help test homeless people. Eventually his wife comes to his aid and shows him identification and he gets released but like, why can’t a black guy be in a neighborhood and doing something very nice without getting detained in some compacity? I’m not really laughing but I can’t stop laughing about this.

Larry 30:13
The officer said that he thought he was littering.

Andy 30:16
Yes. Because it looked like he was until he took his the stuff that was in his hand and like smashed it out, and now it’s on the ground. And so now it’s like, probably like, you’re now you’re littering. I got you. So, well, what’s wrong with you people Larry?

Larry 30:28
Well, I’m always skittish on, I mean, I deplore racial profiling, but I’m always skittish. What when, we whenever want to allege that unless the evidence is overwhelmingly there. It’s to me it demeans, it’s like calling something rape when it isn’t. Yeah, rape is so horrible, that we should never minimize it by calling something rape that isn’t. We should never be tolerant of racial profiling, but we have to actually look if the evidence supports that. And unfortunately, there’s no audio with this. But I mean, if you roll up on a scene and it looks like a person’s littering, you’re gonna have some questions for them. I mean that, if you’ve received a phone call, you see I’m trying to give the police just a tad bit of a doubt here. But I would find it very objectionable if he was racially profiling.

Andy 31:20
Here’s an interesting story. And I always found this one to be super ironic that this is a lifetime ago for me, but I when I was in the army, and I, I was working in the orderly room where they would, you know, track all the personal paperwork and all this stuff. And one of the reports that I had to put together was to what was the ratio of the different races and what kind of awards and medals and, you know, commendations did they receive in whatever that period was? And I’ve always thought of it being odd that if it’s something that you’re tracking, then that means you could have you know, you could assign quotas. Well, okay, so we have 10% black people in the army, but you know, whatever that number is. So we have to make sure that they are proportionally given awards. But now you’re just standing somebody up for getting an award that might not deserve it. But if you don’t track it, then they you know, then things might be out of whack. But I’ve always just found that to be a really interesting situation that if it’s something that you should be tracking, then someone’s going to influence it in the direction to make it equitable for somebody that may not deserve it. But if you don’t track it, then it’ll be all, could be all out of whack.

Larry 32:29
Well, in a true colorblind society, it wouldn’t matter if it is out of whack. I mean, you’re not, you’re not guaranteed a specific outcome. In life, you’re guaranteed, at least in my interpretation of the Constitution, equal opportunity more than outcome. So, but we are nowhere near that even with all the dramatic progress we’ve made. We still have so many barriers that stand in the way and despite a middle class person to upper middle class person who believes that things are equal, it really isn’t. All you have to do is go to a place where children are growing up in poverty and look at what their chances of those children would be even if they worked every bit as hard as your children do, that their odds are heavily stacked against them. But in a true colorblind society where no one is giving any preference or disadvantage to that you wouldn’t need to track it because there would be a meritocracy. I believe that’s the word I’m looking for.

Andy 33:28
I will I will go along with that 100% right there, I will go along with that.
Yeah, I don’t know how you would square that and have people like I like the term used, a colorblind society, and we are so very far from it. By no stretch of the imagination could you say that we are equal in that regard.

Larry 33:41
And I always like to qualify with I agree, but how much progress we’ve made if we, if we downplay the progress then you have people out to assemble you liberals just don’t tend to, nothing ever satisfies you and you’re right. Until we reach the optimum of development which would be a colorblind society. But we would have to be clearly willing to recognize that dramatic progress has been made. You’re a whole lot better off growing up as an African American in 2020 then you were in the 1950s in the rural south. But does that mean you have equality under the law? No, it just means you have a whole lot fewer barriers than you had in the 1950s.

Andy 34:21
Definitely that, hey, do you want to go bash Cuomo now? Isn’t Cuomo doing a halfway decent job of managing New York? It seems to me that he is.

Larry 34:30
Well if you consider being on a soapbox managing, then I would say so, I think what people are tempted to do is they’re tempted to rate their state’s performance on what the governor says. And, yeah, I would like to be a little more objective after we get beyond the crisis to rate the governors on what they actually did before the crisis, during the crisis and what they’ve announced they’re going to do for future pandemics, because now we’ve experienced one in our lifetime that’s really had a dramatic adverse impact on society. So in terms of the Cuomo being in the nation’s largest city, having access to the media, is he doing a fine job getting himself on TV? Yes, he is. Has he positioned himself to be a possible Democratic nominee for high office including the President? Yes, he is. Has he been right about everything? No, he hasn’t. He’s, he’s over overestimated. I mean, according to him, they were going to have millions and millions of people dying and they didn’t have all these ventilators and he was wrong about that. It’s better to be to err on the side of having too much than too little. But, you know, is he doing a good job? I think I’m gonna let New Yorkers judge that. Whether he’s doing good job but he’s certainly received a lot of notoriety.

Andy 36:00
This seems like an impossible situation for a politician. If you underestimate and the shit hits the fan, you are doomed. And you know, you end up with things far worse than you ever anticipated. But just like you know, like a hurricane forecast would end up in the southeast. And then at the last second detour, so they made all these preparations and like, Oh, you weathermen, you’re all full of crap. And then they stop listening to it in the future. And then all of a sudden, the big you know, Katrina, whatever hits that area, you’re like damned if you do damned if you don’t, you almost can’t win.

Larry 36:32
That is true. And with this article that we’re going to cover, combining it with Oregon, my point is, I would be more pleased with Governor Cuomo if he were taking bolder action when it comes to the people incarcerated. And, and his action is very timid in terms of what to do about it. He’s not, you’re going to get bashed as a liberal, you’re gonna get bashed as liberal no matter what. So you might as well do the right thing. You are, the conservetes are going to hit you no matter what you do when it comes to releasing people fromprison. I gotta go back to the Middle East with the Yom Kippur War 1973 when the question was how do we save Israel from being annihilated? And there was a discussion of whether we paint over American military transport planes, so that we can have plausible deniability. And of course, it would still be known that they were coming from the US and then the decision was made. If we’re going to take the hit for an airlift, we might as well do around the clock airlifts. If you’re gonna get criticized for releasing 150 prisoners or 250 prisoners, you might as well do the right thing. And release as many as you can to make the institutions as safe as you can for the duration of the pandemic, cuz they’re gonna hit you, whether you release 2% of the prisoners, or whether they release 20% of the prisoners or whether they release 40% of the prisoners. They’re going to hit you and they’re going to say you’re soft on crime. They will not be able to help themselves. That’s what they’re going to do.

Andy 38:05
And what power does the governor have with state prisoners?

Larry 38:09
Well, I’m assuming that they have a dramatic amount of power, but including, most correctional systems have furlough programs, so they could probably temporarily furlough a lot of people. They have sentence reductions where, as a general rule, most prison systems operate at or near or sometimes above capacity. They have population reduction measures where they could they can shave off the time on the end of people sentences, it’s already under existing law and policy, so he could have a variety of tools in his arsenal including moving up people’s release dates, under any existing law that he has in New York. He has executive powers. I mean, he could do a whole number of things, and any power he’s lacking I could just about guarantee you that that since he’s got a relatively progressive legislation there, he could probably get it through the legislature to the extent they’re in session, which they probably are not. So, he would probably have to take executive action because, come to think about it, they’re probably closed down like most of the legislators are.

Andy 39:14
I mean, you know, I was making a tongue in cheek comment about the total power at the beginning of the show. But as far as I know, the governor can just say we’re letting you go. He has the power of the pen to commute or like you said, I guess maybe would a temporary furlough would that require the legislature?

Larry 39:32
A furloughs a, you know, I’m telling people you don’t have to, you don’t have to release people never to come back. You can do furloughs. Most every state I’ve been in has a furlough opportunity. And they tend to be very selfish with granting those and what you describe is if you have a death in the family, you have to pay for an armed guard to take you to the funeral. But furloughs are, my first choice is to tell people, “Now we can let you stay here if you don’t want to be furloughed, but you will be having to come back to prison when the pandemic subsides. And if you don’t want to be inconvenienced by having to come back to prison don’t leave.” And I suspect most people will take the furlough, but the early release would be my second choice.

Andy 40:20
Yeah, and Josh had said something about that. If someone is within that like window, like, you know, maybe it’s six months, maybe it’s 12 months, like, they’re probably done baking, you know, so to speak, and that six to 12 months, probably is not going to change their quote unquote, rehabilitation, which we know we don’t do in the United States, but I’m just using that term just cuz. So like, in that case, what the hell is the difference?

Larry 40:44
Well, the difference of I mean, I’ll be little cynical here, the difference is oftentimes, I can’t say oftentimes, but if they really are out to get you, they’ll wait till you get near the end of your sentence, and then they’ll find something else to charge you with. Assuming the statute of limitations hasn’t run, and they’ll file something to keep you in prison. And so if we start, like if you started a matrix of releasing people that were in, and you wouldn’t take long to run the computer, I mean, if you’re trying to read, if you’ve got, if you got 70,000 people in prison and you’re trying to get 20,000 out, you would have to run a matrix to see, to figure out how many days you have to shave off to reduce the population by 20,000, if you were trying to merely expedite people’s release, but that would be the only tool you would have. You would have furloughs you could do and then you could look for alternative confinement. It may come as a surprise to you, but everybody doesn’t have to be imprisoned to be confined. I mean, we’ve got all this fabulous technology that you talk about, that we could tell people that were putting you in home confinement, and it’s like a solid program, but 30 years ago about club fed when the federal prisons were supposed to be club fed and the ones that didn’t have walls, didn’t have guard towers, and we can tell a person, We’re putting you on home confinement. And you cannot leave home except for these situations or whatever they are. And if you leave home, we’ve got a place for you as an alternative if this is too much of a temptation, we can provide you with that additional protection so that you if you can’t help yourself, and that’s what the board would give each inmate was a speech. He said, we don’t have guard towers here. We don’t have a perimeter fences. We don’t have barbed wire. We don’t have any of that stuff here. And if you feel like you need that, go ahead and let me know now and we can reassign you to a facility that can accommodate that. But between all the tools that they have at their disposal, they could really reduce the prison population dramatically. The will isn’t there, Governor Cuomo, the will isn’t there in your heart to do this. And the next article from Oregon Live the same thing. The corrections department did a story, a study of what it would take to get to where they could do some social distancing. They would have to cut the prison population by almost 6,000 inmates. And the governor said “No way.” She’s not even gonna think about it.

Andy 43:07
Yeah, you know, I had a funny little play that I was going to do with this. I was going to ask you like, well, what about these people? And you would just say no. Well, what about these people? No. What about these people? No, just no, no, no, no. So she’s awesome. That’s governor Kate Brown.

Larry 43:25
Well, and I know that, that I don’t know not a lot about Kate Brown, but I know that that Cuomo presents himself as a progressive. So let’s see it. Governor Kate Brown, I don’t know if she claims to be a progressive. Oregon tends to be somewhat of a progressive state. There’s a lot of rule nature in Oregon, and they do have a very high prison population per capita there. You’d be surprised if you look at their incarceration rate. They’re on the high side. So I don’t know if we can extrapolate because they have some liberal tendencies that Kate Brown is a progressive, we’ll just have to, we’ll have to let the Oregonians explain that to us. But again, she’s not using the powers and she’s made it clear she’s not going to

Andy 44:11
A member of the Democratic Party. So she’s a D, and has decided to not release any of the peoples from that state.

Larry 44:20
Well, well, she she’s clearly fearing a backlash, but again, you’re going to take a backlash, no matter what you do if you release anybody. Let’s see George HW Bush, railed on Michael Dukakis for one furlough that happened in the state of Massachusetts, of Willie Horton, one furlough. Now that Willie Horton did something while he was on the furlough that was pretty heinous. But Dukakis had no idea that he was out on furlough. He didn’t personally approve the furlough. The law was probably on the books before he ever was governor. And it never occurred to him. I mean he wasn’t saying, “Oh, well, I’ve got to give the guy a weekend pass.” My point is, if you release anybody for this pandemic, and anything goes wrong, you’re gonna take a hit. So you might as well do what you need to do or don’t do anything. Just say they’re dying, which it seems to be what Kate Brown is saying.

Andy 45:19
Yeah, that totally would seem how it has been presented. How many people, I mean, like, Oregon, like there’s 45 people that live in the state of Oregon. How many? Like how do they have 5800 people locked up?

Larry 45:29
Where are you getting your population figures?

Andy 45:33
There’s nobody that lives there. How many people live in Oregon? What is the prison population?

Larry 45:42
Oregon has over 4 million people so.

Andy 45:46
So, looks like they have 24,000

Larry 45:50
Yeah, they have a high incarceration rate in Oregon. And so now all of the people who get mad at me said I never bash liberals. I’m bashing liberals, two of them today. At least one for sure claims to be a liberal. And the other one I’m not sure of. But I’m bashing democrats today.

Andy 46:05
You just gave me the title for the podcast. Thank you.

Larry 46:10
In fact, I would say they’re being more timid than what the federal government has been. The federal government has not been nearly bold enough. But they’ve been more bold than apparently these two have been. I mean, Attorney General Barr spoke out a long time ago and gave the directive of to start releasing people a long time ago, weeks ago. So in fairness, I think that the Federal, the feds have been more responsive than what these progressives have, so we have to call it the way we see it.

Andy 46:43
Can we take a quick little detour for just a moment to thank some people?

Larry 46:49
Absolutely. Yes

Andy 46:51
I want to absolutely 100% make sure that our listeners and especially our patrons, that I bring some highlight to you people, that you guys helped make the show possible, even just straight up listeners, because, you know, if we didn’t get the 10,000 downloads a week, then we would not continue to make this. And then, of course, the patrons, but specifically, my favorite patron, super patron, Mike, super great guy, Best Friend of all time. And I just wanted to make sure that, that we highlighted that we have a very loyal fan base and listeners, and I want to make sure that we recognize that.

Larry 47:22
We do indeed and they have been loyal with us through the crisis. And still supporting us both with the downloads, the numbers are very strong. And as far as I know, I think we’ve lost only one.

Andy 47:38
Yep. And he actually he just ultimately changed his level. So maybe he did have some hardship and, and just changed his contribution level.

Larry 47:47
So thank you to each and every one of you. Thank you.

Andy 47:54
Thank you people? Or just you?

Larry 47:55
Thank you. I’m talking to each one of you individually.

Andy 47:57
Should I give you a roster of names for you to “Thank you and you” What is that? That’s from a TV show, right?

Larry 48:04
We would be here for a while if we did that.

Andy 48:06
Yes, of course. All right, well, then let’s move over to Political and Federal Prisons Make Inmate Calling and Video Physical Visits Free During Pandemic. I’m shocked.

Larry 48:18
I remember calling for this, I think someone must be listening to Registry Matters.

Andy 48:23
That’s could be true.

Larry 4:25
Yes, because I remember saying that if you’re going to cut off their visits, if you want to keep order in the prisons, and have inmates not being so belligerent about this, that you need to make the phone calls free and you need to make visitation by the ones that have the technology for the video visits, you need to make those free and, and someone is understanding that and they’re doing it. So it’s a great thing.

Andy 48:48
Outstanding. Yeah. And then the key would be and I’m sure it won’t happen. So as soon as quote unquote, you know, the national crisis is lifted do they then say okay, now it’s $7 a minute for a phone call again.

Larry 49:00
They probably do because apparently this was part of the $2.2 trillion relief including language for the Justice Department’s blessing allowing the Bureau to make such communication services free for inmates if emergency conditions materially affect operations. And so some letters, some people in Congress, particularly senators, have had written to the Bureau saying, What do you folks do and the Bureau has responded, the Bureau of Prisons that is, has responded by making this adjustment. To all the people that are listening to us in BOP facilities, which believe it or not, I bet there’s somebody who has figured out how to listen to this, simply because phones are in prisons more wide than what you would imagine. Let’s let us know. Let us know what’s really going on. If they’re if they’re actually adhering to this free. It’s one thing to have a policy. It’s another thing to actually have it implemented where people are getting access to the Phone Center, the visitation if you don’t have any staff because they’re all infected, and everybody’s on lock down, it doesn’t make any difference what the policy is.

Andy 50:07
true. Do you see the note that I wrote below the link of the article? And is that something to bring up? Or should we skip that?

Larry 50:13
Well, the letters that went there weren’t any Republicans mentioned. And I wouldn’t expect that this would be something that I mean that the average Republican isn’t thinking about this issue. I mean, we’ve gone over many episodes about Republicans’ fear that people in prison are just a block a democrat voters waiting to happen. And so I don’t, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t expect that they would be trying to be there. But I don’t know if I’d make anything of it at all the letters that were mentioned went from Democratic lawmakers?

Andy 50:47
Yes. If there’s like six or seven senators that are listed in there, and they all have Ds by their name. That was just the a comment that I made. I said, is it just my imagination or are only Ds listed, no Rs.

Larry 50:59
No, it’s not your imagination that that’s were the ones that have written letters. But if you’re a Republican, you can write a letter because no one’s going to vilify you. I keep saying that you have carte blanche to do anything in justice reform and you will not get vilified.

Andy 51:16
All right, well, then for detour number two, we have a very special guest. I have a, like a personal like hotline to one of the board members on NARSOL, and he has some super-secret information that he is going to divulge for us as an exclusive for Registered Matters. I think this is our first exclusive Larry. And so joining us is Richard Mori. And he’s currently a board member serving on the conference Planning Committee and the Conference Operations Committee. And he’s been involved with NARSOL for nine years. That’s like an infinite amount of time and, of course, is an all-around nice guy. Richard, what’s up?

Richard 51:52
Hey, Andy and Larry.

Andy 51:56
Good evening. Can you say something very New England-ish for me just so we can get the accent stuff out of the way first.

Richard 52:01
Well, I’ll say first of all, it’s Romper Room.

Andy 52:04
Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Romper Room.

Richard 52:06
That’s the magic, the magic words. Romper Room.

Andy 52:09
Thank you and thank you and thank you.

Richard 52:17
We want to park your car at Harvard yard there are a lot of parking spaces at the moment because no cars are to be found in Harvard.

Andy 52:22
I can never, it never ceases to make me laugh. I love listening to the program Car Talk because they just it’s so funny to me.

Richard 52:29
They were they were great. They were they were actually…

Andy 52:32
terrible tragic loss of, I don’t remember the names but yeah, god, super program. Yeah. What is your super-secret information that you’re gonna divulge for us?

Richard 52:44
I did swear you to secrecy right under penalty of perjury and death.

Andy 52:52
Not a soul outside this podcast will know of it. Yep.

Richard 52:53
Yep. Just between you and I. We’re having a webinar. Not only are we having a webinar, but we have all the speakers that we were going to have for our conference have agreed to be part of the webinar. So that that is the biggest part of the news. We’re just about ready to take a professional business, I guess that’s really what they are. Who knows what they’re doing in terms of the technology. And it looks like, I’ll put it to you in its simplest terms, I have become a webinar aficionado in five days. I have done five different webinars this week. And I’ve never done that before. And I’m telling you, this stuff is so simple. Even I’m doing it. And trust me, those who know me know that I’m the tech lowball here.

Andy 53:49
I was gonna ask you on a rank of 1 to 10 where are you on the tech savviness scale

Richard 53:55
Zero-three maybe, certainly below zero, minus three. Yeah, I think that would be failure like Brenda could probably qualify that for you. But yeah, I’m not up there very far.

Andy 54:09
well, that’s cool. I didn’t know about all the speakers. So like all of them are almost all of them.

Richard 54:14
All the speakers have signed on board with the webinar, we’re gonna add we’re actually we do have some I know I do have some super-secret things I can’t even tell you yet that we’re planning, but when the COC is going to meet this week, and when we do, we’re going to kick out, we’re gonna kick butt is actually what we’re gonna do. We’re going to make this webinar so exciting and so much fun. People will be saying, “We should do this like every other year.”

Andy 54:47
right? Do you know anything about pricing or anything of that nature?

Richard 54:51
Um, our attempt is going to be to keep the pricing very low. We may have to do a little bit because this the cost of this is actually in the thousands of dollars, not in the hundreds. So there will be probably some cost. But we have an idea. I’m not gonna divulge it yet, but we might be able to subsidize the cost a little bit with this other idea.

Andy 55:15
Excellent. Larry, do you have anything that you would like to inject?

Larry 55:21
Well, Richard, what what CAN you tell us?

Andy 55:23
I know, right.

Richard 55:24
It’s gonna be a fantastic time. We’ve got wonderful speakers. The lineup we had for this year’s conference was really strong to begin with. And of course, I don’t have it in front of me. Although, I have the brochure, but it’s not handy.

Andy 55:39
Hey, Richard, what are the actual dates? June, July? What are the dates?

Richard 55:42
It’s gonna be June 12 and 13th. It’s gonna be Friday and Saturday as we had scheduled

Richard 56:01
By the way, I want you to know something. This is the first time I participated in your chat room or greet room or whatever you call it. Sure. And it’s really fun back there. I may just, I may come every week just for the just for the chat room. I mean, did you? You can’t imagine the things they’re saying about you in that chat room.

Andy 56:23
I can imagine them but actually Brenda sometimes just hangs out in chat and doesn’t listen to the live stream. Just because you can pick up whatever we’re talking about. She’s but she’s sitting on a secret. She hasn’t shared that with anybody. I’m telling you. I’m gonna tell people.

Andy 56:38
I try to tell them every week but nobody listens. Maybe they’ll listen to you.

Richard 56:40
Well, let’s hope so. I mean, it’d be the first but you know, what the hell.

Andy 56:44
Are you done rustling papers?

Richard 56:47
I am, I have it right in front of me. So we have Kimberly Boudin from the ACLU of Michigan is going to be with us. JoAnn Wypijewski I think I pronounced that correctly. She’s a columnist and an editor. I think she’s from the Chicago area. But I may be wrong on that. Paul Dubling whom I think everybody, everybody knows. Everybody knows Paul and he, I think he’s working up a special talk for us, Phil Telfeyan, the executive director of Equal Justice Under the Law, and Dr. Fred Berlin psychiatrist and sexologist and so we’re going to have a full blown array of wonderful speakers. The technology the thing we really most concerned about is making sure we get the technology right because if the technology doesn’t work, and you know it Andy, it don’t work well.

Andy 57:45
I know a little about that sort of thing.

Richard 57:48
So we’re gonna, we’re really wanting to focus and make sure that this comes off really well and that people are going to be satisfied with it and happy with it.

Andy 57:58
Fantastic. Larry, anything before we Richard go?

Larry 58:00
No, Richard, I appreciate you coming on and sharing those super secrets. I just can’t wait to see how it is. This is a new experience for NARSOL in terms of doing it online. And we’re going to find out what the participation level is. I have I have a little bit of dubiosity. But we’ll see.

Richard 58:21
I’m anticipating that we may hit 300 people for this event. I’m, I haven’t put my feet to the fire on that one yet. But I really think that the people will be able to gravitate towards this much easier than they could in terms of flying to Raleigh, and the troops and people who are out there would like to be part of it.

Larry 58:49
Let’s hope so, Richard.

Richard 58:53
Great. Well, I thank you for it’s been fun to be here.

Andy 58:56
Thank you for joining. Thanks, Richard. Have a great night and we will talk to you soon stay safe.

Richard 59:02
I will.

Andy 59:05
Ready to be a part of registry matters. Get links at If you need to be discreet about it, contact them by email you can call or text a ransom message (747)227-7477.Wwant to support registry matters on a monthly basis, head to Not ready to become a patron? Give a five-star review at Apple podcasts or Stitcher or tell your buddies at your treatment class about the podcast. We want to send out a big heartfelt support for those on the registry. Keep fighting, without you, we can’t succeed. You make it possible. You ready to move on there. Now that we got that crackpot out of the way?

Larry 59:55
Yeah, let’s do it. We’ve got 20 minutes to go through 12 articles.

Andy 1:00:01
Is it 12? All right, well then we’re going to enter into the speed round. This. This next one. Oh my God, this one is terrible. A Philly judge has denied every inmates bid to get out of jail amid the Coronavirus. Defense Lawyers are trying to cut her out of the process. This is from the Philadelphia Inquirer. This is a stellar human being in, and Philadelphia county is like they’re in Philadelphia. So it’s like New York, New York is like you’re in New York City, but you’re in New York. And then so Philadelphia County, it’s in Philly. This is terrible.

Larry 1:00:29
Well, she’s doing what she put her hand on the Bible and said she would do. She’s upholding the law.

Andy 1:00:39
I mean, I suppose. But don’t judges sort of have the capacity to have compassion and think about like things in totality. Hey, you did felony jaywalking. Maybe you don’t need to be in prison to where you’re going to catch a deadly disease.

Larry 1:00:53
Well, the funny thing is it says that in some cases that she increased the detainees bail after they filed their motion to get out. Now that’s funny.

Andy 1:01:01
That’ll teach you. come into my courtroom and waste my time asking for some sort of compassionate relief to get out of prison. I will just so $5,000 bail, let’s make it 25.

Larry 1:01:11
So well, we had a judge here in Bernalillo County that I never saw it, but I had more than one attorney say this was true that she would ask, tshe’s no longer on the bench, so I don’t think there’s any need to name her. But she would ask when she was setting the bond, are you gonna be able to make that? If the person would say yes, she would say, Well, I’m increasing it. So now of course, if this is your first arrest, you have no idea. You would think that the judge is trying to make sure that since you’re presumed innocent, you’re going to get out but the rumor has it and this will be an Ashley question if this is true because she’s been practicing 25 years around here. But the rumor has that she would say you’re gonna be able to make that bond? and they’d say, I believe I will, Your Honor. And she’d say, well, it is $10,000

Andy 1:01:58
That’s awful. And I’m assuming that she’s an elected person, I’m assuming we talked about this frequently that state level judges are generally elected. Is that fair?

Larry 1:02:08
Generally, there’s some elected component to it. I don’t know in Pennsylvania, but by her actions, she’s either a very, very close minded individual or she’s afraid of something. And she’s, apparently that it’s so egregious that they that the defenders are trying to get her off of the decision making, out of the loop.

Andy 1:02:35
How does that work? Like, tactically, you know, from your point of view of how do you get it so that aren’t judges randomly-ish assigned? And so you just get the short stick and that’s who you get. How do you get a judge out of that process?

Larry 1:02:48
Well, not knowing enough of the intricacies of the of the court system in Pennsylvania. I would say there’d be a number of ways you could do it. For example, usually in the larger jurisdictions, and Philadelphia would qualify for that, a judge doesn’t go back and forth between civil and criminal domestic relations and the specialized courts, they’re usually assigned to a division of the court. So she’s a Common Pleas judge, for example, which is the is the trial level court, if she’s a judge in Common Pleas and she’s in the criminal division, one thing you could do would be to get her assigned to it. She could be assigned to domestic relations or to juveniles, that’s a scary thought, but you could have her assigned to the to the Civil Division to one of the other divisions, and that would get her out of the process. And our state, we can excuse a judge. So what happens here is there’s a peremptory challenge that either side can make and you end up excusing a judge so many times that the reassignment happens if that judge is not never going to have a criminal case because all the defense lawyers are disqualifying excusing the judge. They end up being assigned to do different types of work. So I don’t know what all the options would be, but it mentions in the article that the Supreme Court overturned one of her excessive sentences as being extremely harsh. So it this is this is a known thing.

Andy 1:04:18
Like this is like the judge in Georgia named Amanda Williams. There were a bunch of profile like radio programs, This American Life profiler, she would just rake you over the coals and almost entrap you through things terrible terrible terrible.

Larry 1:04:33
I’m gonna correct myself I said supreme when I met superior court. It says in February, Superior Court overturned a seven year prison sentence imposed by Judge Marie Coyle and this is the judge’s name, on a man who had violated probation saying a reasonable observer could question whether the Judge comported herself in an unbiased and impartial manner End of quote. So, you know, like I say this is well known around the circles. What all their options are to deal with her, I don’t know.

Andy 1:05:01
Gotcha. Ah, and then I guess otherwise she comes up for election in another half decade or something and then maybe she gets voted out but probably not, because she’s probably tough on crime and that makes everyone feel squishy inside and gets reelected.

Larry 1:05:15
Well in Philadelphia, that doesn’t seem to be the mood that carries the day.

Andy 1:05:21
True. Wonder what Larry Crasner has to say about her? Probably besties because they’re golfing weekly.

Larry 1:05:28
I thought he was mentioned in the previous article that we were just talking about it. He was quoted in there if I remember right, but I don’t remember what he said. My old timers has kicked in, but I’m pretty sure he was mentioned in there.

Andy 1:05:41
District attorney Larry Crasner said he understood Bradford Gray’s position given the effort parties have put into finding candidates worthy of possible release from jail. The previous article like the one I think you’re thinking of the reason article, those are just in the Philadelphia.

Larry 1:05:54
Yeah, yeah.

Andy 1:05:56
They’re just a companion, just different point of view on the same article. Well, I guess we can then move over to and fifth inmate dies of Coronavirus at Elkton federal prison in Ohaya, I learned that Ohio is pronounced Ohaya this week.

Larry 1:06:11
So I have never heard that.

Andy 1:06:14
Yeah, that’s from Ohaya natives. I guess one of our patron listeners probably would know of it as Ohaya since he’s from up that way. Hey, man, that’s only five. What’s the big deal? Right?

Larry 1:06:26
Well, that’s one of the facilities that ends up with a lot of the Federal, it’s a federal facility, it ends up with a lot of people that have sexual convictions. And I don’t want to jump to a conclusion if it has anything to do with anything but the Prison has, it says currently houses 1999 male inmates and 418 in an adjacent lockup. If they haven’t got that population down I think this is just the beginning of what we’re going to see.

Andy 1:06:57
Yeah, I got to think that things are going to get worser. Isn’t that a word?

Larry 1:07:00
It is a word and the way we judge it on the on the NARSOL side is we know where the institutions are where we send the most of our newsletters and that is one of the top five where they, where we have subscribers, in Elkton.

Andy 1:07:18
And then I guess we can move over to, hey, we do have one from the appeal. This is: A Man With Innocence Claim is first to die of COVID-19 in Pennsylvania prison. This guy who was serving 30 years in prison and was claiming innocence and was working with possibly the Innocence Project, is that who I saw in that article to try and get released for? you saw,

Larry 1:07:44
Yes, that’s what you say. 67 years old.

Andy 1:07:50
I’m just gonna call that shitty, Larry.

Larry 1:07:52
But I’m confused because I’ve read the article and it said he was in prison, Pennsylvania prison but then it referred to Phoenix. Is there a Phoenix, Pennsylvania?

Andy 1:08:03
There’s probably a phoenix everywhere.

Larry 1:08:06
Well, I’ve never heard of that.

Andy 1:08:07
“was held at the state correctional in Phoenix.” Maybe it’s just titled Phoenix and not Phoenix, PA? Anyhow, we don’t we don’t have to look for that.

Larry 1:08:18
Yeah, we don’t know. But yeah, that caught my eye when I was reading this. And then another thing that caught my eye and of course, the name John is fairly common. But the name Wetzel is not. The corrections had his name, John Wetzel. And back in the 70s, there was a basketball player for the Atlanta Hawks named John Wetzel. Did john Wetzel go into the corrections business after he retired from basketball back in the days where they paid him 30 grand a year?

Andy 1:08:50
Well, I mean, that’s possible. You always hear about sports people opening up restaurants. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of one doing corrections, though.

Larry 1:08:57
Well, but that’s not true. The the lineup Braves had a picture, a pitcher, not a picture, a pitcher named Pat Jarvis, who became the sheriff of DeKalb County, which is the county directly east of Atlanta. He played for the Braves and he was like the Sheriff. So but the salaries back in the days we’re talking about when Wetzel played and Hank Aaron, the salaries were just minuscule by today’s standards. I mean, when you inflate Hank Aaron’s hundred thousand dollar a year salary for inflation from the 1970s he would be making $900,000 today, not 7 million or 8 million or 12 or 14 million a year like people are earning these days for playing sports. I mean, so is it possible that it’s the same person? I have no idea. All of our listeners in PA you can tell us is John Wetzel a former basketball player?

Andy 1:09:51
And you could also throw in there that Steven Seagal became like an honorary Sheriff. Wasn’t that in Arizona?

Larry 1:09:56
I didn’t know that.

Andy 1:10:01
I’m pretty sure. Hang on, I’m looking it up now.

Larry 1:10:03
But how many how many Wetzels have you met in your life?

Andy 1:10:06
Very few. Oh, he said he’s a reserve deputy chief in Jefferson Parish, Louisiana. How about that?

Larry 1:10:12
Who is?

Andy 1:10:14
Stephen Seagal, He’s an actor. I’m just messing with you.

Larry 1:10:17
All right, in terms of this with, with the his innocence claim, it’s a sad thing because apparently there was significant support that he should not have been imprisoned for all these years, so there was evidence to support his claim, I should say.

Andy 1:10:38
Because the Innocence Project doesn’t take on just every willy nilly case, there has to be some sort of decent chance to even take it on to put forth the man hours to try and get you released.

Larry 1:10:49
The resources they have are so miniscule compared with the need that they have to be very selective. I mean, well, let me try to explain that this is this is for me to pontificate if you’re out looking for Funding for something like the Innocence Project, first of all, you’re not going to find most of your fortune 500 companies are not going to be, that’s not gonna be where they’re looking to put their philanthropic resources. So you get money to pay these poor attorneys and these investigators to try to pursue these claims of innocence. And if you just take every comer that comes off the street that says, hey, I’m innocent, and you don’t ever actually take a claim that works, it’s gonna be very difficult to go by your back to your funders and say, we’re actually freeing innocent people. So therefore, it’s a part of the process of screening cases, so that you can justify your existence and inspire your donors to keep giving. You have to be selective about the cases you take. Otherwise, if you go back and say, well, we took 114 cases in the fiscal year, how many got out? Nobody, but there’s a big need for what we’re doing. So that’s, that’s why they have to be so selective because it’s an Innocence Project, and nobody will fund a project that no one’s ever found to be innocent. Because it kind of defeats the purpose. You can’t make a credible argument that all these people are in prison that shouldn’t be if you can’t ever succeed, so that’s why they have to be so selective.

Andy 1:12:10
Certainly, hmm. It’s just, I can’t imagine you’re like, yes, I’m gonna get out and then all of a sudden this thing happens and boom, three months later, you croak because of it.

Larry 1:12:21

Andy 1:12:22
That’s our compassionate system that we have here. Love it. Love it, love it. Love it all the way all the way to the bank, Larry. Next up is an article from the Washington, what do you call it,The Washington what?

Larry 1:12:35

Andy 1:12:36
Compost, got it. This is DC jail inmates with Coronavirus barred from access to lawyers. That sounds like a constitutional violation. Maybe they’re in DC they don’t have constitutional rights because it’s not a state? Family showers and changes of clothing Inspectors say. why would they like have reduced access to these kinds of things across the 1442 prisoners system, inspectors found inmates lack adequate cleaning equipment, training to disinfect cells, toilet areas and communal areas. But what’s the problem with that Larry?

Larry 1:13:06
Well, it’s another tragedy that I was afraid of. Because in my mind with no medical experience whatsoever, it would seem reasonable to me that you’re going to have to really make an effort at sanitation. And that means laundry has to be increased means that cleaning up the housing units, all the bedding, everything has to be increased. The clothing has to be increased. Well, that’s difficult to do if you’re overcrowded to begin with. And if you start having staff shortages, because people don’t want to work there because they come and become infected and that scares off the rest of the people. So the whole system will begin to break down because if you have a staff of 300 for the 1400 and a hundred of those quit showing up for work because of fear. How much work can the 200 do that are remaining?

Andy 1:14:06
Yeah, you end up with some bad problems.

Larry 1:14:09
And, and again, that’s why we needed to clear out the facilities of as many people as possible. Because once you do that you can put distance between people, you can increase the laundry, you can increase, you might have to give some inmates some extra incentives to work around the clock. But I’m confident that if I were in charge of a correctional facility, I bet I could find people who will do laundry around the clock, and people who will clean housing and common areas around the clock. I believe I can pull that together. I really do. If you don’t think

Andy 1:14:44
If you had a lot of pizzas I think you could pull it off.

Larry 1:14:47
I don’t think it’s gonna cost a lot of money to do that. Yeah, I think you could, you can do things like extra good time. I think you can do things like extra privileges, and I think that the cost will be very minimal to really increase the operational capacity of how the facilities are operated in normal times. In normal times they won’t let you have very many extra sheets and stuff because we do laundry here once a week and your, housing unit, you get your new sheets on Tuesday, and that’s the way it is. You get your new jumpsuit every Tuesday, that’s the way it is or every Thursday or whatever. And that’s the way it is. You could probably describe that routine better than I can. How often did you get your stripes in Georgia?

Andy 1:15:28
They did laundry multiple days a week, two or three days a week. I’m pretty sure was three like you know, Monday, Wednesday, Friday kind of thing. Maybe it’s a Tuesday Thursday, Saturday, I’m pretty sure it was Monday, Wednesday, Friday.

Larry 1:15:39
How often did you get to trade your stuff out for new, how often did you get to get new uniforms and new bedding?

Andy 1:15:46
Like they would do like a sheet tear down like that was a one day out of the week. So your bed was supposed to be unmade. A lot of people just throw their stuff in their locker and hide it so they didn’t have to wait for their stuff to come back. Plus, often times stuff doesn’t come back. But as far as like your other uniforms and stuff, you would just do them with the laundry like normal, they would just bleach the crap out of it and wash it in thousand degree temperature water.

Larry 1:16:10
But I’m assuming you had more than one uniform otherwise you would have been nude so they gave you a number of kind of 3 like a uniforms.

Andy 1:16:17
Yeah something like that. Yeah, so the empty one you have in your locker and then one in laundry kind of sort of always. Was it five? I think it was five.

Larry 1:16:22
So did they do they run laundry daily to the housing unit where you could throw your uniform one in there every day or twice a week or?

Andy 1:16:37
it’d be three times a week like I said Monday Wednesday and Friday? I think it’s been a while now. So and that’s something that I try to reflect on being like wow, this is happy times. “Do you remember back in the day when we were doing…” no I don’t really reminisce like that.

Larry 1:16:47
So yeah, it’s sad that this is going on but at least it’s getting some attention but the attention will probably be too little too late.

Andy 1:16:56
Yeah, as soon as everybody goes back to go into Hooters and whatnot. Like who’s going to give a crap about the inmates then?

Andy 1:17:03
yeah, let’s go to NPR News. ACLU sues to release Moose Lake inmates due to COVID-19. This sounds like a kind of a regurgitation on the other articles that we’ve had not to discount the people from Minnesota but.

Larry 1:17:20
This is big. This is the civil commitment. This is the people who are in that special civil commitment for sexual offenders and a federal district judge had found it to be unconstitutional. And then the Eighth Circuit overturned the district judge saying that, that you don’t have a right to get out. There is to be released from civil commitment, you have the opportunity under the law, therefore, it’s not unconstitutional. And now these people are are essentially in prison. I mean, it’s as close as to prison as you can imagine. And so they’re saying, well, since we’re, we’re not prisoners, we’re civil. We’re patients. Let us out during this crisis. And then that’s what they sued for.

Andy 1:18:01
Okay. Interesting. Yeah. Okay. Do you think they’ll gain traction?

Larry 1:18:07
It’ll probably be too little too late. Being that the courts are working on slow schedules these days

Andy 1:18:14
And then there’s a huge backlog Once they do finally get back to a normal schedule, there’s going to be a gigantic backlog if the courts weren’t already stacked to the gills with overloaded work as it is.

Larry 1:18:25
Well, the judge that had the previous case that he got flipped or overturned, means he got overturned. If he happened to have gotten this case assignment again, he’s going to be a little gun shy. When you’re flipped by the appellate court, it makes you a little gun shy the next time around, so he’s probably going to be if this case came up, of course, he could always recuse himself and say he doesn’t think he can be impartial. And he can punt the case to someone else. But, but I just think it’s gonna be too little too late.

Andy 1:18:54
Gotcha. And then we have another article from which is titled: This is a legal malpractice claims against public defenders subject to Tort Claims Act. Larry, I understand every word in this article. But I do not understand what Tort Claims Act is. I don’t understand how this gets put together.

Larry 1:19:13
Well, this, this one won’t take a lot of time. It just means that if you feel like that you’re that you’ve been improperly represented, which is a pretty hard, hard barrier to prove that you had malpractice, like medical malpractice. People make a big to do about medical malpractice, but most of them go nowhere. If you feel like that your attorney has committed an act of malpractice, which is not the same issue didn’t like the outcome is that that there were actually tangible things that the attorney should have done that would have made the outcome different all but for those mistakes. If you’re going to sue the public defender’s innocence out of the state of New Jersey, you have to comply with the elements of the Tort Claims Act. tort means an injury. And if you’re going to claim that you’re an injured by the New Jersey public defender’s office, you have to Submit a notice within 90 days of the entry, preserving your opportunity to bring that claim. So everybody in New Jersey, if you think your attorney committed malpractice, you’ve got 90 days to file that notice otherwise you’re going to be barred by the Tort Claims Act. You won’t be able to seek any redress because of your failure to put that state on notice that you have a claim.

Andy 1:20:19
And tort is just a legal word for injury. I know you just said that.

Larry 1:20:22
That’s all that’s all it is. Yes.

Andy 1:20:24
Okay. Obviously, not physical.

Larry 1:20:27
Any type of any type of injury can be physical, but yes, you’ve got an injury by the lawyer’s incompetence or omissions.

Andy 1:20:37
Okay. I’m trying to I’m trying to wrap my head around the actual meaning of this just for my own personal I’m taking one moment to go Hmm, now I understand. Oh, hey, and then let’s punish you for being in prison in Alabama. Alabama reopens what is called a deplorable prison to quarantine new prisoners. Wow.

Larry 1:21:00
Not new, not new prisoners.

Andy 1:21:04
Well, it says to quarantine new prisoners, that’s what it does say.

Larry 1:21:07
For the people to people who have been tested positive for COVID-19?

Andy 1:21:12
Right. It does say so they’re following a 30 day moratorium anyway, either way, Larry, they’re being put in a shitty place. And I’m not laughing because it’s funny laughing because this is like, well, it’s deplorable. It’s just terrible. What is wrong with this place?

Larry 1:21:25
Well, it was closed in 2018, for being notoriously horrible, and outdated, and it was going to cost millions to bring it up to standards to renovate it. And it looks like now that the way to deal with people who become sick is to move them to a previously condemned prison. But the Alabama Department of Corrections says that they have renovated the particular section where they’re going to be putting these inmates and That’s gonna relieve the overcrowding at two facilities Alabama which are grossly overcrowded. Staten is operating at 274% and Elmore is at 200% according to the corrections department’s statistics, so, again we talked about cutting the prison population by half if you cut those two prisons by half, one of them would still be above capacity the one in Staten if that’s how you pronounce it would be still overcrowded and, and these to put the people that have these Well, I guess you can’t have it without getting really sick. But it just seems like when you have a person who’s sick though, you want to put them in a dilapidated place.

Andy 1:22:43
You do have a tendency when someone is sick that they like to it seems for their own self-interest for their for their best interest that you put them in a comfortable place like climate controlled and then yeah, I’m pretty sure that this is not how they’re going to be treated in the end. They’re going, you know, almost like how we shackle pregnant women. Like, I don’t see why we would do that. But, you know, so, of course, if you get sick in prison, it’s just here’s some Motrin. I hope you feel better, eff you.

Larry 1:23:13
well it says in Staten 68 men share three toilets and three sinks in one dorm.

Andy 1:23:18
I don’t think that’s an uncommon ratio, to be honest with you.

Larry 1:23:23
It seems like you’d have a lot of competition for those toilets.

Andy 12:23:26
Yeah, you better plan ahead, because if you’re like, Oh crap, I’ve got to crap. And the three people are using it like you’re in deep kimchi.

Larry 1:23:31
You know that, that just seems hard to relate to when, in the private world where we’re unhappy if we don’t have our own. My brother has a house that was built in the 50s. In those days, they built homes where families grew up, raised families and you’d have three bedrooms and one bath and now he talks about no one can live in a house with him because it only has one bathroom. And I said well that’s strange. In the 1950s people raise families in this very home and didn’t think anything about it, but now no one can live here with you. You must have this entire place by yourself because it only has one bathroom. So think about 68 people sharing three just that’s….

Andy 1:24:11
My one thing about this particular thing is, So there was a Department of Justice investigator called conditions at the facility deplorable and noted numerous dangerous and unsanitary conditions. This is where it gets to be my favorite, including raw sewage, vermin. I love that word Larry, and toxic fumes. Vermin, I think that means rats. I think.

Larry 1:24:29
Yeah. Well, if you look at the picture there, does that remind you of what the dormitory looks like? This is L bar.

Andy 1:24:37
Exactly what it looks like.

Larry 1:24:39
How would you do it is social distancing there?

Andy 1:24:43
The best you can man. Just make it work. People would most likely be walking around with T shirts wrapped around their heads.

Larry 1:24:49
But those get laundered once a week so that they’re gross to begin with.

Andy 1:24:51
I completely agree and understand and people try to you know, the bottom bunk they would try to set up little tents, that would help you to a certain degree but the person on the top bunk is that people are just walking by hacking up a lung right on your bunk. person on the bottom just has. I can’t say it Larry. I can’t say what is right in your face when you’re on the bottom bunk and someone walks by. You know what I’m saying?

Larry 1:25:15
Ha ha, this is a family friendly program.

Andy 1:25:19
Yeah, I mean, I would say it but I’m not gonna say and I think finally i think i think i think we have an article from Ohio prisoners with confirmed Coronavirus cases skyrockets overnight as state increases inmate testing. That’s a novel concept, Larry, like how would you know how many people are infected with a thing if you didn’t have tests for them to test for the thing.

Larry 1:25:54
That’s the whole thing that’s been going on throughout this is that it was something that I don’t want to point fingers because I don’t know the intricacies of having a test and, and being able to test at a level appropriate level. But clearly, there’s a lot more of this out there than we know about simply because tests have been so limited, you have to beg for a test. And I personally know, the public defender here in our state that tested positive. And she had to beg for days and days to get a test and it was only when she got sick that they finally agreed to test her. Now the president says that the testing is going to get better and better and it has gotten better. But But initially, testing was almost impossible.

Andy 1:26:22
I know that when they first started detecting it, that you would almost like eliminate it. So you know, you would test for the flu. No, it wasn’t that you would test for this you test for that you do chest x rays, and you would do all these things to be like, we know that it’s not this we know that it’s not that we know it’s not this and all we’re left with is it’s probably this, go quarantine yourself.

Larry 1:26:40
Well, and the number of staffers in Ohio prisons with it is up to 159 as of the writing this article. What’s that going to do on the call-in rate of people who are not going to go to show up for work when you got that many staffers testing positive. It’s one thing to sit in your office and hang out in the staff lounge and chew up the fat and let the inmates make it by themselves. But if you’re chewing up the fat with with the staffers and they’re all infected also, you’re not gonna want to go to work. And they’ve approved, releasing 105 inmates from state prisons in Ohio. Like that’s gonna, like that’s gonna make a difference.

Andy 1:27:24
That’s a dramatic increase, man. That’ll work that’ll do it.

Larry 1:27:27
And it would make a difference if you’re one of those hundred five.

Andy 1:27:30
Yeah, and that’s the story that you tell about the mass riot in I think was in your state 700 years ago.

Larry 1:27:36
Yeah, the one we talked about 1980 Yep. that’s, that’s the one where I tell people that one day makes a difference when people say What difference does a day make when you’re getting out of prison? I said, Well, if you were in prison, on this date, in 1980 and you got released, it made all the difference in the world. That’s what difference a day made because 43 inmates died and dozens more were injured. It made a big difference that one day.

Andy 1:28:00
Should have thought about that before you did your crime. But before you did your felony jaywalking, you should have thought about that.

Larry 1:28:04
Well, we read the names of those people. And they were very young. And it was very touching 40 years later to read the names, because we had in those days, we had only that one prison we had very little separation between the non-serious offenders, and it was just a tough place to send people to and as the outcome showed.

Andy 1:28:26
well, that was a happy show. Larry, I think we can wrap it up. Are you ready?

Larry 1:28:29
I am. So how do people get in touch with us if they want to?

Andy 1:28:32
If they want to, you certainly should go visit And you can find show notes which will have links to all of the articles that we covered tonight. There will be a transcript there so you can read along with our happy thoughts for the evening. I’m sure your favorite place to have them get in touch with us is with a voicemail message and what is the phone number for them to reach us

Larry 1:28:52
(747)227-4477 now what will the transcript do with when I say “afeared?” How would it transcribe that?

Andy 1:29:03
It would probabaly spell it out as “a feared.” It’s not going to do grammar checking. So it’ll probably pull that one off as two different words, just a guess. But there are sometimes some words like I said, I don’t I bet you it doesn’t do bestest or worser I bet she doesn’t pull that one off. How about email? Larry, I know that you’re reading our emails on a daily basis. How do people email us?

Larry 1:29:30
Oh, that’s easy. That’s

Andy 1:29:35
and I’m going to alter things here just ever so slightly, please visit if you would like to become a patron. If you are unable to become a patron. Go to the Apple podcast, go to Google podcasts. Go to any of those places where you download your podcasts and leave us a review. Preferably a five-star review. Say something nice about us and that will help other people find us. You know, we received a YouTube compliment very recently of someone just saying stupendous content, keep up the great work. So I mean, that just helps people, you know, even go to YouTube and gives us a thumbs up, subscribe over there. And so that’ll do it, man. I think that’s all I got.

Larry 1:30:17
Thank you Andy and the thumbs up helps. From what little I understand. When you get thumbs up more people want to look at these. “Wow there’s, there’s 12 thumbs up. Well, this must be a good thing to listen to.”

Andy 1:30:29
Absolutely. I appreciate your time and expertise and knowledge, Larry. Thank you, Richard for chiming in. And thank you to all of those in chat all of you people in chat. And like I said, Larry, thank you very much. I hope you have a great weekend and stay safe.

Larry 1:31:12
Good night.


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