Transcript of RM140: AG Barr Seeks to Force AWA Compliance

Listen to RM140: AG Barr Seeks to Force AWA Compliance

Andy 00:00
Registry Matters is an independent production. The opinions and ideas here are that of the host and do not reflect the opinions of any other organization. If you have a problem with these thoughts, fyp. Recording live from FYP studios, parts unknown, and FYP Studios West, transmitting across the internet. This is Episode 140 of Registry Matters. Larry, Happy Saturday night. How are you?

Larry 00:25
Good, Andy. Thank you. And where are those parts unkown just for the record?

Andy 00:28
For the record, if I had to tell you, if I told you I would have to kill you. So it’s a covert, It’s secret. It’s underground. It’s in the Great White north. I’ve crossed the border. I’m in the Caribbean ocean. I’m somewhere.

Larry 00:42
I see. Well, I was just curious if because I won’t tell anybody if you tell me on this podcast.

Andy 00:48
Oh, okay. So I can tell you and no one will hear it at this point.

Larry 00:52
That is correct. They are suppressed.

Andy 00:55
I really think that we need to I can’t I can’t go around and kill you. So we’re just gonna have to let that one go for now. I’m visiting family, I’m up in the northeast area of the world.

Larry 01:05
All right.

Andy 01:07
We, we received an interesting little voicemail that I want to play. We’ll get this knocked out of the park. First off, this is from one of our new patrons, Tom. It’s about a minute long, Larry.

Tom 01:17
Hey, Larry and Andy. This is Tom. I just wanted to say thanks for what you do. And to let you know how I discovered the Registry Matters podcast. I think it was about nine months ago, I received a letter from the North Carolina NARSOL chapter about what they and the National NARSOL organization were all about. At that time, I really had no idea such an organization existed. But I finally logged into the North Carolina NARSOL site and I became a contributing member I think about five or so weeks ago. About a week and a half later, I received an email from NARSOL. And lo and behold, your podcast was highlighted in that email newsletter. So I went to my favorite podcast app and download the podcast and listened, and I’ve been listening ever since in my morning and evening commute. I can’t thank both of you enough for the valuable information you’re providing us PFRs. Your podcast has been very enlightening and informative. I’ve gotten so much value out of it. I even became a patron about three weeks ago. Thanks again for your time and effort that you put into the Registry Matters podcast now off to go catch up on previous episodes and until next time, fyp.

Andy 02:25
Larry, he became a patron and listens using a podcast app. I’m just so shocked.

Larry 02:30
I am as well and he’s very articulate.

Andy 02:34
And he used his like voice memo on his phone to record it and send it which is amazing instead of using the crappy phone system.

Larry 02:40
Well, we don’t have to worry about the phone we haven’t got one of those lately.

Andy 02:46
So we should let’s move over real quick that you you put out like a listener challenge last week last week to do what?

Larry 02:53
I wanted people to look at the bio a little bit or you could use the internet to look at Edwin Stanton’s career and tell me what I would have found. Because I found him to be an amazing guy. Well, what would have attracted me to Edwin and his public service? And I figured someone would look at that and come up with something but nobody did last week.

Andy 03:20
I guess nobody, nobody was around at your time to have any sort of personal interaction with Mr. Stanton to see what the comparison would be between the two of you.

Larry 03:28
Well, but there’s a lot on on the internet, I mean, it and you can always believe Wikipedia, right? Everything Wikipedia has, has to be correct.

Andy 03:38
I do have an opinion on this. You can like you can trust it. Almost reliably that it’s accurate. Unless there’s something hot and heavy going around, you know, like, and they’ve put in so many controls since then. But George Bush had like some entries changed to make him look like really a really a terrible, terrible, terrible person and like the edits are just going back and forth, adding and deleting adding and deleting. But now there are other controls in place. As far as a resource for people to use it is in almost all of the languages that people use on the planet and on that, like, Please trust it. But go verify it too. Don’t just trust it implicitly, you should should verify at least you know, like, they’re generally their sightings, go check sightings, like that’s where they got their information from. I think Wikipedia is phenomenal.

Larry 04:23
I do as well.

Andy 04:26
Let’s see. Do you want to dive right in? Oh, let’s let’s talk about this. The screenshot that I have up there talking, uh, we have the new service, the transcript, what does that picture up on the screen Larry? For those watching the YouTubes.

Larry 04:37
That picture would represent the batch of transcripts that went out on actually I got about Thursday. But normally the intent is to have the previous episode out on Friday, and that would be 25 transcripts. And what we did was we took the patrons who have have signed up for their loved ones. And then we took some people that have been loyal to NARSOL that I thought might be interested that we blended them in. And then we did some random selection to try to build the interest inside the institutions. And, and we used that same method to build the newsletter circulation from 100 to over 1,000 over the course of last four or five years, so so my intent is to send out a random selection of a couple dozen each episode. And hopefully that will cause people to reach out to their loved ones and say, Wow, I didn’t know about this podcast ma you ought to sign up for it so I can get the transcript.

Andy 05:36
Do you do you think in your experience of sending things like this inside of institutions, will feedback eventually materialize? I mean, can we expect to hear something from someone at some point that they liked it hated it, they think we’re garbage or we’re the best?

Larry 05:52
We’re going to definitely hear from people in prisons. Since it’s just so new, it’s gonna take a while, but we’re going to hear feedback. People say Well, I didn’t know it or you You people are nuts or whatever but we’ll get feedback we did on the newsletter when when I force fed it we don’t have to do that anymore. There’s enough its momentum carries itself now we have a little growth each month but when I was forcing them out to people who had no idea we existed, we got positive mostly feedback and some people were not amused because they got a newsletter from an advocacy organization and they said it compromise their safety because it wasn’t in an envelope.

Andy 06:29
Right, right. Yeah, I recalled. Do I remember I remember somebody receiving something in Georgia that wrote back some pretty, pretty hateful stuff. You know what I’m talking about?

Larry 06:42
I do it but I’m wondering with this, you’d have to be, if anybody is old enough to demember the Evelyn Wood speed reading courses, you have to be a pretty fast reader at the time that the mail was handed out. If If the news magazine if the person can, if people can read it and figure out what it is while you’re taking it from the from the from the male distributor Officer, do they have a mail officers or is it usually the guards that hand out mail in prisons?

Andy 07:05
It is definitely guards. Oh my god guards, yes.

Larry 07:08
Well, I thought that might have a mail technician that went around like I like the way they do with sick call.

Andy 07:13
Oh god, no. At least at least not in Georgia, they have the the schleps that I kind of had so many problems. I had to file a grievance against one of them for mispronouncing my name. And I claimed that it was like, I don’t want to say it was racial discrimination, but it’s ethnic discrimination because of my name. And I don’t want to go into all that, but the person refused to pronounce my name. So I would start calling him officer, you know, something Dumbledore for, you know, pick up some kind of name, I filed a grievance against him. And that stopped immediately.

Larry 07:41
Fantastic. But But yes, I do. I do anticipate feedback probably as early as this coming week.

Andy 07:48
Really that fast? I mean, it’s only been what three weeks since we’ve been them mailing out.

Larry 07:52
Well, yes, but by about three weeks, those those people that have read them from cover to cover and many people do have a lot of time and many people do have time to read cover to cover, I expect we’re gonna get feedback. I didn’t know this, this makes sense, or you guys are nuts. You’ve got it all wrong. But But yeah, I think we’ll get we’ll have our own little fan club and our own detractors that will be writing to us at the podcast.

Andy 08:17
Of course. All right, well, let’s jump over into this first thing that you wanted to put on the agenda. It’s Tennessee, Reed v Lee is that. So that’s where we’re going to head first?

Larry 08:25
That would be correct. That is that is something that is just very exciting to a lot of people. We’ve had more than one email, which is unusual when you get more than one email about something. We’ve got a number of email.

Andy 08:40
This is dude against the state, the governor of Tennessee, which is William Lee. So Ronald Reed against William Lee, and he is asking for an injunction. Is that right? (Larry: That is correct.) So what is the status? Where are we at?

Larry 08:55
Well, he did. He did the amazing. He actually got the injunction. So the status of the case right now is that the state of Tennessee is enjoined from enforcing its registration requirements against Mr. Reed, whose conduct predated any form of registration in the state of Tennessee. (Andy: How far back Are we talking about for that? In the in the 90s?) In the early 90s, his conduct dates back to ‘91. And, and Tennessee adopted in ‘94 or ’95 when when the when the states were encouraged to, ‘94 actually, but the states were encouraged after the after the feds passed the Jacob Wetterling act and encouraged the states to to enact registries.

Andy 09:46
Um, let me go off the script just real quick. How is it that you could determine that someone doesn’t like so his stuff predates the enactment of all these harsh terrible things. He’s still a human isn’t he? Like all these things that applied to him that make his life miserable, would apply to someone that gets convicted of it tomorrow. How would we have person is different than person?

Larry 10:11
Well, I don’t know if we are saying that a person is different than a person. What we’re saying with the type of challenges that’s being asserted, there are many different grounds which registration can be challenged. One of the most common is the ex post facto clause because you can’t increase punishment after the event. people have to have fair notice of what will be the repercussions of their conduct. So in this particular case, if I were advising Mr. Mr. Reed, I would see no reason to challenge it on any other grounds other than the Ex Post Facto Clause because to me, that would be the lowest hanging fruit. I wouldn’t want to go off on things that where there’s not allow a lot of case law to support you. When there’s a whole body of case law that’s developed in terms the ever-escalating reach of registration has evolved what may have been a civil regulatory scheme to become punishment, so I would say that that that that was the most logical choice for him to make in his circumstances, but that doesn’t mean that it couldn’t be punitive to someone else whose crime didn’t predate the registry. It’s just that that was the best challenge for him.

Andy 11:22
And he doesn’t want to try and push that big rock up the hill. And I mean with that, I mean, I guess an injunction is different than him suing? Is that, is that fair?

Larry 11:30
No, that’s not fair. What he did is he filed a lawsuit and then as a secondary request, he asked for injunctive relief, which is immediate relief. And, and he he he filed for the injunction to stop the harm that’s occurring prior to the case moving to the judicial process. And an injunction is merely an award of something that you haven’t won in court, yet. You have not the case hasn’t been tried on the merits, but you’re getting preliminary relief in advance of your case going to trial.

Andy 12:07
Okay. Um, so you said that’s…why don’t all challenges request an injunction?

Larry 12:15
That’s a good question. It’s because the burden is so high to get an injunction, you have to show there’s like four components. To me, the two most important are that you have to show that the case law that’s already built on this area will guide you to victory when your case finally goes to trial. And you have to show without the injunction that irreparable harm will flow and irreparable harm cannot be speculative. You have to show the irreparable harm will flow if the court doesn’t grant the injunction and there’s two others. One or the other one says is this not adverse to the public interest, I forget what the fourth one is, but the two most important he was able to meet that a lot of litigants are not able to meet that, for example, in the in the international Megan’s Law challenge prior to, to to the implementation of the of the process, people were saying that heads were going to be chopped off, but there haven’t been any chopped off yet that I’m aware of. And and all the horrible things that people said would happen in these foreign countries was speculative. There was a lot of speculation that these things would happen, and you can’t speculate an injunction has to prevent an irreparable harm that directly flows from the issue at hand. And you can’t use it to bootstrap all your other claims that you’d like to assert because the harm has to flow from this particular thing.

Andy 13:42
And as I recall it, in another high profile case for our people was that we there couldn’t have been any harm demonstrated yet because the harm didn’t exist yet. So, the injunction was denied?

Larry 13:58
Injunctions are more often denied than granted. I’m not sure which one you’re talking about. But in the state of Tennessee there was an injunction granted just in the last year, year and a half with the the law that they passed to, to rip families apart. You remember that you couldn’t live with a minor child, even if it was your own family? Yeah, that was that was that was there was an injunction because the harm was readily apparent. If there’s a law that says, you can’t live with your minor, minor child, the harm that flows from that is not speculative. If you can’t be a parent, and you can’t interact with your with your kid, we don’t need to speculate on that. That’s harmful. Everybody agrees with that. So that that was that was one-word injunction was granted and I don’t know the status of that particular case. But that was also in Tennessee. And they were trying to stop the flood from coming from Alabama where they have a similar law.

Andy 14:48
Why do you think that Reed won this challenge?

Larry 14:52
I think I think he won it because of the the inability of the state of Tennessee to contain themselves with, with with the…

Andy 15:05
They can’t hep [help] themselves as you would say.

Larry 15:07
They really can’t. They can’t help themselves because they have the law enforcement apparatus asking for new tools. And they have the victims advocates apparatus asking for these things. And nobody has bothered to tell the law enforcement apparatus that if you want to keep this toy that you have, where you can go out and bother people and harass them, we have to keep this toy relatively tame, because otherwise it will trip over a constitutional threshold and the toy will not be available to you. And nobody bothers to tell the victims advocates that because it’s not politically popular to say that when they bring in 100 people, and I think that our Maryland counterpart if she’s on tonight, I don’t think that’s much of an exaggeration. When I was in Maryland, there was probably close to 100 people in that witness room that the victims’ advocates had brought into committee hearing. It’s very hard for a person who’s in public office being live streamed around the state and around the globe for that matter, to tell the victims’ advocates, even though you would feel good if we did this, we can’t do it because it would probably be unconstitutional. And then we risk losing the registration scheme. Nobody’s gonna say that. And that’s what happened in Tennessee. That’s what happened in Tennessee. I clipped from the decision. There’s a lot of we can, we can post this. I did not write this folks. I made some slight edits and tried to make it so it was more understandable. But this is stuff that I just clipped from the opinion. And it starts with with the in ’94 the Tennessee assembly created a registry, and it talks about how the registry was relatively benign. It says that, that that a person convicted of an offense was required to register by paper within 10 days of release without without supervision from probation, parole, or incarceration. The information registered was generally considered confidential, but it could be released and then after 10 years the registrant could petition for his removal. And then in ensuing decades, the Tennessee General Assembly repeatedly, this is from the decision, returned to the sexual offender registration status to change home, they reached what they required and how much protection they offered the registered offender’s privacy. And then they just couldn’t stop themselves. And so the Tennessee Assembly continued their pattern of expanding the requirements of the registration regime by amendment but and it lists what they did in 2008, 2010, 2011, where they are they added in schools, playgrounds, and then added libraries, residency restrictions, they just couldn’t help themselves. And therefore…

Andy 17:49
That’s no different in any state though. I mean, it’s not like one state said, ohp, here’s the here’s the bare minimum. We’re just like, everybody piles on. Some just do it worser than others.

Larry 17:59
Well, that would be That would be true. But you you have you hit the tripwire in Tennessee because you have the Does vs Snyder decision in Michigan, which they relied on. Because they the analysis was done in Does vs Snyder, which is also blended into this to this cheat sheet. That That explains how they how they came to their decision. The Snyder court found that there’s a point of no return when a registry is inflicting punishment. Tennessee would have been okay if they had just kept this guy registering by piece of paper sending it in and not imposing any restrictions on him. But you guys in Tennessee, you can’t help yourself. And, and now you’re back to square one because this is going to cause you untold litigation, the floodgates are gonna open and of course, I think that means that there’s good chance to that Tennessee will appeal this. Oh, I forgot. I’m not supposed to say that. I think I think there’s a good chance that the Tennessee will take an appeal on this injunction because they will they will not want the floodgate. If I’m an attorney in Tennessee, and now there has been an injunction granted, for a person whose conduct predates any type of registration in Tennessee, I’m going to be filing an action as quick as the client can pay. And I’ve got to say, this is a no brainer, folks.

Andy 19:27
But I mean, to make the comparison, someone in chat brought up the the injunction in Georgia like, I mean, that Sheriff is going I’m gonna take this all the way to the Supreme Court if I have to, okay, well, that could be really good. And that would make a blanket thing across the country. This could go that way too? Yes or no? Am I being too optimistic to say that if they appeal it and it goes to that level and the next level and all that, that it could then really strike a blow to all of them?

Larry 19:52
Well you’re your logic is not completely flawed except for one regard. It’s actually sound except for this is already predicated on a Sixth Circuit decision. And the Supreme Court has already declined to review the Does v Snyder case in Michigan. Since this is so similar to what they declined to review, unless there’s been a dramatic change in the makeup of the Supreme Court, it would be unlikely they would want to review this again. So I would doubt that the Supreme Court would take it. And I would doubt that Tennessee would file a cert petition. Now they could very well go to the Sixth Circuit and say, you know, you guys, you looked at this and our registration is different here in Tennessee, and they would try to distinguish what makes there’s less punitive than Michigan’s, and they would try to get a panel. They would draw a different panel of judges, and they would try to get a different panel to come up with a different outcome by distinguishing their arguments. I think you lose on that. But what it does do is it stalls and they would ask to, what they would do is they would ask the Sixth Circuit, to put a block on this Reed character from getting any relief, they would say to put a hold on the injunction. And let us continue to enforce the registry while this appeal goes forward, it is just a delaying tactic. And ultimately, I think the panel would not, they generally don’t overturn another panel, unless there’s a significant alteration in what the facts are. And I don’t see it in this. The Tennessee registry looks an awful lot like Michigan’s to me.

Andy 21:21
Okay, so, um, you know, build build a matrix. So take Excel or, you know, pick your tool of choice. And you’re right, try and figure out to normalize the language of, you know, living restrictions or no parks or all the different things to try to normalize a language because one state’s gonna say you can’t operate a motor vehicle but another one’s gonna say you can’t drive a car so normalize language and figure out which states have the worst ones and where challenge has been applied. Like, you know, in this thing the guy is talking about that he can’t go and participate in his school functions, seeing his kids graduate from the various grades like all of us are dealing with it. I don’t see how you know, for Michigan and Tennessee to have this struck down for this one dude. It doesn’t apply to somebody in California that has the same thing. I don’t see how I understand that there are different states. But I still don’t really see how it’s different.

Larry 22:14
Well, in terms of there are a lot of states that don’t have any restrictions on terms of what in the registry. A lot of these restrictions arise from probationary, supervised paroled and supervising authorities are imposing these conditions. But where these things are imposed is a condition of registration, they’re definitely vulnerable to challenge. Unless, of course, you’re in the Fifth Circuit, which is horrible circuit based in New Orleans. And that encompasses Texas, and everything that goes to the Fifth Circuit seems stuff seems to not gain any traction. But you’re correct that that these ever-evolving encroachments are very similar and they’re vulnerable to attack. We just need more money, more resources, and we’re going to have to get more challenges going around the country. And the cases have to be properly built. And this guy did it correctly. He called the right cause of action and he didn’t try to do it in a criminal case. He did it the correct way.

Andy 23:15
Didn’t do it pro se?

Larry 23:16
Didn’t do it pro se.

Andy 23:18
Does that mean that that attorney is now under the radar of NARSOL to to tap to do other work?

Larry 23:26
It would be if we if we knew who it was. I haven’t done the research to figure out who the attorney was. Who the attorney is. But all those Tennessee people I’m sure that we’ll have an email as soon as this podcast goes out telling us the name of the attorney because I can assure you people in Tennessee are to tuned into this and they know who the attorney is.

Andy 23:44
Yeah, Brenda said she get listed a bunch of states and said but the other states nobody has challenged. So I mean, that goes with what you just said about it. So we need people to formulate logical, coherent challenges in states looking for these kinds of infractions. What did you just call them? Um, darn it. What did you just call them a second ago?

Larry 24:05
You expect me to remember what I said a second ago?

Andy 24:07
I do actually, uh, anyway, so overstepping boundaries, whatever, making it hard to live, and maybe we could push back and gain some sort of semblance of realistic living.

Larry 24:19
Well, one of the things I like I’d like to add in this is toward the end of the cheat sheet where there’s the red highlights about the restrictions on Halloween. I’ve had conversations with Tennesseans for for a few years, including an attorney from Tennessee who shall remain nameless because I’m going to be critical of the attorney. And I told the attorney and the Tennesseans I cannot find these restrictions anywhere in the sex offender registration act that the the Department of Corrections were imposing on people and they were just telling everybody you have to be home. They were treating everyone on the registry as if they were a supervised offender. Well, finally, this judge points out that these restrictions are nowhere in the act. And that the enforcement of these restrictions on Reed was a mistake by the by the Metropolitan Police whatever that city was that was enforcing those. But But this this was a mistake. I keep telling folks, this is an important point. When the police tell you, you have to do something. Sometimes they’re telling you something that you don’t have to do, because it has to be in statute. If you’re not under supervision. Your supervising authorities can tell you to do some things that are not in statute. But when you’re when you’ve paid your debt to society, and they tell you that you have to do something. It’s not unreasonable to say, Well, I’m not familiar with that section of the statutory scheme. Can you cite to me where it says I have to do that? And if they tell you what, you know what goes for you, best for you if you do this. Life would be better say, Well, I understand that’s your position, but my position is life goes as an American, if we don’t succumb to doing things that we’re not required to do, and I’d be happy to do it if you can show me where I’m required to do this. This is something where I’ve said for years, if you’re not under supervision, you don’t have to do this. When they file a criminal complaint against you, they have to be able to cite to jurisdiction of the court, which they have to prove that the infraction occurred within the jurisdiction of the court. And they have to cite to a section of law that you’re in violation of, in order for the person who’s accused to be able to figure out how to defend themselves. And if you can’t cite to a section of law that says you’re required to do this or you’re prohibited from doing that, the person can’t defend themselves. So if a person if the police were to file a criminal complaint, and if a lax judicial official were to sign an arrest warrant and they were to haul you into custody, the first motion your attorney would make would be, you would stipulate that you did exactly what was in the complaint. Yes, the lights were on Halloween. Yes, he did hand out candy. And there’s nothing in the statutory scheme or the state of Tennessee that prohibits the person from doing that. Therefore, this court must dismiss. And that’s what would happen.

Andy 27:15
Just be like we’ve erased it, we use whiteout like this. Not that it never happened, but like, screw the prosecutor like you guys are idiots go home.

Larry 27:24
Well, but do you still have the arrest record and I can’t vouch for what the bond would be set for. I know that that’s a consideration. No one wants to be arrested, handcuffed and hauled to jail and no one wants to have to spend their financial resources. But if it’s not in the statute, they can’t convict you. I shouldn’t say can’t. They shouldn’t be able to convict you of breaking a nonexistent law.

Andy 27:46
This, to me, this feels like an organization that I follow where they send very threatening letters to organizations that are explicitly violating laws and under threat of lawsuit and generally they back down. I mean, you know, kind of like the the Spalding and the Butts County. It’s like, hey, you don’t have the authority to do this one of them backed down, one of them didn’t. (Larry: That would be correct.) Didn’t we get one of the NARSOL attorneys to write a letter saying this is coming. Back down. I mean, there’s nothing, you know, how do you prove a negative, there’s nothing in the law that says that you can do this back down, you will lose.

Larry 28:23
I wish that I had an attorney in Tennessee that we could have done that with but the attorney I was relying on was was adamant that you had to do it. But yet there wasn’t anything in the statutory scheme that support that. So now we have resolved that issue because the federal judge, which his or her I don’t know if this is a male or female, but his or her legal resources are far greater than what mine are. And the federal judge is saying it’s not there. So I’m going to take the federal judges word for it.

 

Andy 28:50
Fair, fair, fair. Judge Aleta Trauger. That’s what I’m going to go with.

Larry 28:57
and what’s the gender of that judge?

Andy 29:00
I got nothing on that one. I don’t know. Are we done with that? Should we move on?

Larry 29:07
We should move on.

Andy 29:09
And very good. So this someone brought this up in chat just before we began and this is the AWA proposed regulation changes. Is that what this is? (Larry: That is.) Alright. I have like no idea what’s going on here.

Larry 29:26
Well, as Nancy, no it wasn’t Nancy that said that it was Ronnie that said that. Well, Nancy.

Andy 29:31
Yeah, he was he was all about some welts, well.

Larry 29:37
In order to implement the Adam Walsh Act there, there have been a series of regulations issued and there’s a process that goes for public comment which I submitted comments on the last round, not the last round, but on the on the on the first round on the AWA I think in 2008. I submitted comments, but but these are merely proposed regulations that are out for comment for 60 days, I believe it is. And then after the comment period, they will be adopted and become final they’ll be published in the Federal registry, register. And, and what I have deduced from looking through this is that the concern is a little overblown, but not completely. There there, there’s reason to be concerned. But there was not reason enough for panic.

Andy 30:34
Okay, and I don’t have a cheat sheet for this one. So why no reason for…why reason for concern but not panic?

Larry 30:42
Well, the feds cannot create a federal registry. They realize that and if you read through the 93 pages, they acknowledge that and they’ve acknowledged that from the get go. That’s why they’ve asked the states to do it. And that’s why they have they they have used the financial, the Treasury, the purse to to encourage it. When I say that there’s no federal registry, conceivably there could be a federal registry for people who have federal convictions. And that would be the family of the Federal apparatus. That would be anything that’s a federal crime. Anything that occurs on Indian land, that’s not a minor crime, they those end up in federal court, that would be the military convictions there would be there would be those where they could conceivably create a federal registry, but what you would have would be a federal registry, that would be separate from the state registries, because the people who were convicted entirely within the state, there’s no federal jurisdiction for them to create a registration obligation for them where they would have to report to a federal registrar. They broke the laws of the state of Georgia and Georgia determined that they wanted to register them. So therefore, there’s no there’s no jurisdictional hook for them. And (Andy: okay.) So So therefore, you would have you would have a federal registry operating side by side with a state registry. And that would be duplicative. If there’s any such word that would be duplicating effort. You you would have, you would have no reason for that, when the states already have a registry. So the federal law just requires you that you register with with your state officials, but where this is really, really problematic is that they have decided that their their attempt is to clarify the regulations that that that the states are operating within. And the states if they are if there’s clever, as late as I expect, they will be. And I will guarantee you that I’m not letting any secrets out of the bag. There are people that work in the registration schemes across the country and law enforcement, they’re every bit as clever as I am, if not more clever, so they’re gonna pick up on this. So, what they’ve done here is they’ve opened the door for the states to not have to actually adopt all these provisions one by one, all the things that it takes to be federally compliant, they can simply do it with a blanket statement. That (Andy: Okay) that a person a person has to comply with the federal, for example, the timeframe. Rather than saying how long a person has to register and prescribing that in state law, they could totally eliminate their state reference to how long a person registers and they would say that the person would register consistent with the terms established by the AWA and by federal law. And they could do that in terms of of the reporting obligations, that that your that your, your reporting frequency will be consistent with what is required by the federal standards. Do your three day window for most reporting of additional registration or changes, they could simply say that, that these things will be consistent with the federal standards and then they can leave they can they can bow out of the of the legislating business and simply say that they’re adopting the federal standards. And there’s where the danger lies. Because if they’re able to move that type of proposal through their legislative process, then all of a sudden de facto you will have the Adam Walsh Act adopted without actually going through the nuances of putting all these tiering level of your offences because that’s the complexity. One of the complexities of the of the of trying to figure out how the offenses align with with with, you look at a state statutory scheme, and trying to figure out, and most states have gotten it wrong. They’ve they’ve over-tiered things that didn’t need to be and once in a while they’ve under-tiered something. Most of the time they’ve over-tiered something and and you would end up with with with the feds by regulatory fiat, they would tell the state these crimes are 50, these are 25, or these are life. And since the state has passed the law say that they’re going to, they’re going to incorporate the federal requirements as theirs, then that’s the danger. But it doesn’t create a new jurisdiction unless the state wants it to. If the state does what we do, which we beat everything that comes in, if we can take you to beat back everything that comes in, it doesn’t change anything, any ioata, doesn’t change one iota of what what would be required by New Mexico unless New Mexico changes its own law. But that’s what I fear. That they will do that across the country.

Andy 35:36
So they just say see federal guidelines, blah, blah, blah, and now we’re compliant.

Larry 35:41
That’s what I’m afraid that they will do. And, and then in these proposed regulations, they create, they acknowledge, I think on page 11, I put a highlight on the 93 pages they acknowledged quite well that that these, this is something I could read on the podcast. It says this reflects the fact that SORNA provides minimum national standards for sex offender registration. It is intended to establish a floor rather than a ceiling for the registration programs of states and other jurisdictions which can prescribe registration requirements binding on sex offenders under their own laws independent of SORNA. See, they’re acknowledging that the states can do whatever they want to do. Jurisdictions accordingly are free to adopt more stringent or extensive registration requirements for sex offenders than those set forth in this part, including more stringent or extensive requirements regarding where, when and how long sex offenders must register, and what information they must provide and what they must do to keep their registrations current. Well conversely, you can also adopt less, which some states have. But when people write in, call and leave messages saying that, well, this violates federal law. No, it doesn’t. The federal law is a recommended minimum to be awarded that precious designation of substantially AWA compliant. It doesn’t preclude the states from doing things beyond that including registering offenses that are not recommended. Which every state practically that I’ve looked at registers indecent exposure. Not required. We just talked in the previous segment about residency restrictions. Not required. We talked about proximity restrictions. Not required. We talked about exclusions from school activities. It’s not required. All this stuff that your states have done, not required by the Federal SORNA.

Andy 37:33
It all like just a few pages prior to where we just where. It says this statement will make it easier for sex offenders to determine what they are required to do and thus facilitate compliance. Larry, this is for us this is working to our benefit.

Larry 37:47
I struggled with that one. I was I was gonna text I was gonna text Attorney General Barr but it seems like he’s changed his number. (Andy: Ah, surprise.) But But the concluding part of my point that they’ve recognized in here, that that states that don’t adopt these things like, for example, the three day window of reporting changes, if the state has a 10-day window, or I think there might be a state out there that has still a ten-day window. I know we do. There might be another state other than us that has a 10-day window. And in our instance, we have we have sheriff’s offices that aren’t open to registrants but once a week. And some I think we might even have one open every couple of weeks. But but we have, well, they say that the sex offender, the PFR, if they can’t comply with that, say, for example if New Mexico says you would register in compliance with federal standards, and then they would get that blanket part on the books. And we’ve got a sheriff’s office that still only opens once a week, well that would not permit you to come in within three days. Which allows under these guidelines, the PFR can assert that as an affirmative defense. Well it was impossible for me to comply. So they recognize that you, you still can’t force the state to do what it’s not going to do. (Andy: Yeah.) I want people to understand that. This doesn’t force any state to do anything that they’re not inclined to do. But what this does do is this gives the states an easy way to do something that the victims’ advocates, and the law enforcement apparatus will encourage them to do, which means you better get your legislative advocacy in gear after these are adopted, because the logical thing they would do would be to change your statutory scheme to say that we just we abide by federal law, and then all of a sudden, all this stuff is a moot discussion.

Andy 39:40
I see. God that 10-day things. Just like you could be arrested and held and they were like, yes, but I couldn’t comply and like, Oh, crap, we’re sorry. Hey, we’re gonna open the doors for you. I like that just sucks, Larry.

Larry 39:55
Well, but again, that this is where I maintain that only the state could arrest you. So, I’m giving the benefit of doubt that the state officials here might actually know the law. And I know that’s a stretch. But I’m assuming that that a county sheriff here would seek an arrest warrant on the three day rule if they weren’t open. Now, maybe I’m giving them too much credit, but I just don’t believe that, and the feds do not have in my opinion, this is my opinion. They don’t have the authority to do the arrest because you haven’t violated federal law. You violated state law, there is no federal registry.

Andy 40:32
You violated federal guidelines.

Larry 40:35
So so until New Mexico says that you have to register within three days it doesn’t make a damn what the feds say about how and when you have to register it because this is our dog and pony show here.

Andy 40:47
Do you think that this makes it easier to mount a nationwide challenge instead of trying to piecemeal it state by state?

Larry 40:56
It’s not coming to me at first glance, but if a lot of states were to adopt the blanket language and say we’re just going to go by the feds and I don’t see that happening overnight but if a lot of states did that possibly, but even if they did we still have 50 separate registration schemes.

Andy 41:16
Right Right. Right. Right. Right, right. God like there’s no way and I and we could just immediately like go right back to Ii’s like you were bringing up the food Inspector thingamajiggers for restaurants. Like every city every state probably has some sort of different food handling requirements and so if you don’t comply, they just shut down. You know, that’s that’s what a civil regulatory scheme looks like. But unless you’ve got cockroaches and actually like poisoning people, I don’t think there are criminal charges for not complying.

Larry 41:47
Come again with that you don’t think they’re criminals are absolutely absolutely are criminal charges for not complying.

Andy 41:52
No, that’s what I mean. But like if you if people are dying from it, then yes, but if you have like if you have somewhat dirty silverware, you’re probably not going to get locked up for having dirty silverware, they’re gonna dock you and close you like for a week maybe until you fix it and then then you go back to business.

Larry 42:08
You are correct on a first-time violation for health thing, depending on the severity of it. There are immediate closures if you watch our city of Albuquerque public health, we have our own city inspections here. I think we’re the only city in the state that does but but there there are occasionally immediate closures. But if you continue to not make the corrections and you continue to defy that, they will lock you up.

Andy 42:34
But I mean, if you have someone that fails to register once it’s you know, one five year kind of sentences like right off the bat for something that you possibly didn’t necessarily know exactly like hey, you were a day late like eff you. Cuff up we’re taking you out like they’re not doing that to the to the restaurant necessarily. Not like that. It’s not that heavy handed.

Larry 42:53
You are correct. They treat this as more of a public safety issue than they do food. Now I don’t know that I agree with that. I think people get sick all the time from bad food and from lax practices and restaurants but but to say it’s not criminal it very well could be criminal. But as a general rule, how you’re going to be treated is quite a bit different. If you violate the registry in most states, it’s it’s it’s a serious misdemeanor or, it’s felony in most states. But even if it’s a misdemeanor, it’s still a serious misdemeanor. In our state, it’s a felony in the fourth degree that carries a potential period of incarceration of 18 months. So it’s not like it’s not like a city of Albuquerque restaurant inspection where you can get up to 90 days, I think, almost municipal ordinances. So you’ve got 90 days versus 18 months, looking at you, but you can go to jail for violating the restaurant rules. Another thing to point out in this is that this this recognizes that there are jurisdictions that that don’t register certain offenses, even though the feds would like them to be registered because their law doesn’t uncover that. They they acknowledged that the state doesn’t have to register you. But if they say if that state is willing to register you, you need to register. So what I see this doing is that the states are going to be willing to register more people if they adopt that blanket provision that anything is defined as a sex offender because that would make people like Regina in our state really happy because then it would neuter our equivalent. There has to be an equivalent offense, Regina would just say, well, we define a sex offender as anybody that’s in the Adam Walsh Act as a sex offender. So therefore, we don’t have to do that analysis anymore. It’s irrelevant whether it’s equivalent because we have the catch all that says, so therefore we’re willing to register you. That’s the real danger in this.

Andy 44:48
Okay. Any other closing comments before we move on?

Larry 44:51
I hope that that some of these national organizations will will take this seriously and express their shock and dismay at these these proposed regulatory changes. And having said that, I don’t expect it to work like none of the other ones have. But at least you get it on the record that that, that that this is not the way to go. And this might be an opportunity for the national organizations to collaborate in terms of putting forth something to the to the to the Department of Justice saying how bad this is.

Andy 45:29
Larry, let me bounce this by you before we move on. Going on in chat, I was trying to figure out how to like actually present this but it didn’t seem super concise. So I’ll just read what was written. It says what I’m especially concerned about is in retro, like Pennsylvania changed their their scheme for 2012 and before which I fall under that they will take that away along with other challenges being done in the court, like in Michigan. Does that does that tell you anything that you can speak to?

Larry 45:58
I don’t really have that fear. I don’t I don’t see them being able to undo. Remember, this was all off the cuff with having. (Andy: Yeah, sure) just a small amount of small amount of preparation here. But the punitive nature of those decisions were decided, based on based on ex post facto. Now, I’m not saying that, that that, that, that they couldn’t require you to register. But I don’t think they can build back the registry that they had pre litigation because those facts don’t change. In Michigan, the 2006 and 2011 enhancements made made that those requirements to register too punitive to be applied retroactively. And I don’t think you could undo that with any proposed regulation. Same, same thing. Same thing goes in Pennsylvania. You know, I just don’t I don’t see that as being something to be fearful of.

Andy 46:57
Let me try and explain it in my dumb person terms. So let’s, I believe that Pennsylvania challenged the thousand foot kind of living restrictions at some point and won it. Those aren’t in these recommendations to begin with. So fighting like them them just saying we’re going to blanket follow these. Well, that was already something that got struck down as being beyond and not constitutional. So they’re not going to like roll any of those kinds of things back in?

Larry 47:26
Well, I’m not sure there was a proximity issue in Pennsylvania. I don’t think they had any restrictions on living but if we got a Pennsylvanian in chat we can… (Andy: Yeah) but, but but you are correct. There are none. The federal law does not encourage or require or suggest that there be restrictions placed on where people live or work. These are inventions that you have done in your states of your own volition.

Andy 47:57
And find all of those parks, schools, playgrounds, like proximity, any of that stuff, all of these extra things that make life so much more challenging. Even like, actually, I mean, this might might not be a terrible time to talk about. I had a pretty long conversation with someone on Twitter about they challenged what I said last week about the registry, like what’s so bad about it? They’re like, are you serious? What’s so bad about I was like, hang on, like the registry the act of I’m not saying that’s a good thing to go to the Popo and go hang out and say hey, you know, here’s my fingerprints and people around with tasers. I’m just saying like, the bad part ss the internet, having your junk posted about where you work, live, all that stuff, your picture? That’s what is really really over the top hard for people to overcome. Then your neighbors get involved like they know who you are like all that. To me, the Internet piece is the worst of the worst. Is that in this?

Larry 48:52
That is an Adam Walsh Act. They’re they’re, they do require for substantial compliancethe internet publication of at least a tier two and tier three offenders.

Andy 49:05
Okay. So I mean that was like my, my like the crux of what I was even I was tongue in cheek asking it last week I was trying to poke the bear so to speak about whether the registration like the at the registry is so bad and our guest pushbacked pretty hard, like “I don’t want to be on it.” Like man, I get it. None of us want to be on it. But the problem is everyone having access to your information? Otherwise, yes, an employer is always going to do a background check. And whether you you know, felony jaywalked? Well, that’s going to show up on your on your record, and all the way to these really terrible crimes that people do commit. Those are also going to show up, but it’s the public access that when you go to a sports game, you know, for your little league team, that the neighbors and all that stuff are poking, like there he is over there, like that’s what gets you like makes life really hard to live. To me, in my opinion.

Larry 49:57
Well, I would, I would agree. It also sets up the vigilante stuff that…

Andy 50:01
Correct, yeah totally, totally.

Larry 50:02
You could actually do. Listen to me closely law enforcement, you could actually do a website, if you would let go if your desire to put non conviction rated information on there. Where they’re living is not conviction related. So you’d have to drop that. What they drive was not conviction related. So you’d have to drop that. Where they work is not conviction related, you would have to drop that and I can go on and on. But if you merely wanted to put the name of the offense they were convicted off and the photograph as it existed at the time of conviction, nothing else is related to the conviction, how they age is not related to the conviction. If you wanted to just do that. You could probably get away with that indefinitely. As long as you didn’t put stuff on there that had nothing to do with conviction, but you can’t help yourself because that’s not what you want. You want them to be ostracized from their neighbors. You want them to feel threatened when they’re in their cars driving, to be attacked. You want all these things, and I know you’re rolling your eyes, and I’m actually telling you that you and the victims’ advocates, you want all these things to happen to these people because you hate them so bad. Your hatred is what overcomes you. If you merely just wanted a registry of a list of people who had these convictions. And you didn’t do anything else with it other than compile the information on conviction day, you could probably get away with that in perpetuity. constitutionally, I’m talking about. Not in terms of being a good public policy. Constitutionally, I don’t think that would be vulnerable to any challenge.

Andy 51:48
I understand your points, but they can’t hep [help] themselves as you would say. H-e-p Is that how you spell that one?

Larry 51:55
They can’t help themselves because they have enormous pressure from the people that I just named and they don’t have hardly any pushback from the PFRs and the organizations that represent PFRs are woefully underfunded and generally not present. And that that really makes it a one-sided discussion. And that’s the problem.

Andy 52:19
Ready to be a part of Registry Matters? Get links at registrymatters.co If you need to be discreet about it, contact them by email registrymatterscast@gmail.com You can call or text or ransom message to (747)227-4477. Want to support Registry Matters on a monthly basis? Head to patreon.com/registrymatters Not ready to become a patron? Give a five-star review at Apple podcasts or Stitcher or tell your buddies that your treatment class about the podcast. We want to send out a video heartfelt support for those on the registry, keep fighting. Without you, we can’t succeed. You make it possible. Okay, and you put something in here. So like a little intro about something I’m not sure if you wanted to actually cover this piece. Its client is released on probation terms include no contact with complainant. Did you want to go over that?

Larry 53:24
Oh, yeah, that was something on the national criminal offense lawyer’s listserv. I thought it was funny, as I say.

Andy 53:30
Okay. Do you want me to just like read it and then you can respond to it?

Larry 53:34
Sure. That’d be good.

Andy 53:35
All right. So the client is released on probation. Terms include no contact with the complainant. He commits another offense, different complainant and is incarcerated pending his VP which is a violation of probationary hearing. While in jail the complainant, from case one, the one where the No Contact order came up contacts him by letter, wants closure. Man that’s an almost like entrapment. Like, you can’t stop the person from mailing you. She sets up a secure account accepts calls from him. And the recorded conversation showed them trying to work things out. Prosecutor finds out about the recorded calls from corrections and wants to also violate DF, defendant? (Larry: Yep.) On the calls. Eventually they decided to proceed to violate him on only these calls. Trial attorney says, Hey, shouldn’t probation end when one is in jail? Can’t comply with many conditions, including association with other criminals and finishing programs. Yeah, that would be interesting. Like it says no association with criminals, but they put you in a box where there are other criminals. Prosecutor says, Okay, fine. Logically, we could violate them for things beyond his control. But he called her in violation of the order. Anyone have case law about whether you can violate probation while in jail? That is an interesting question Larry.

Larry 54:48
Well, and I thought it was that’s why I put it in and I and the answer is going to amaze you. You can actually… no we do know. We absolutely do know that. We absolutely do know that. You can violate your probation while you’re in jail. You absolutely can do that.

Andy 55:06
Because in jail, you’re just being detained like your, oh boy. Well, how would you classify the person in jail quote, unquote, detained you’re not convicted of anything, you’re just not free, you’re certainly not going out to watch movies and popcorn on your own.

Larry 55:19
Well, now he is convicted, the crime that has him on probation. He is convicted. Now he’s picked up a new charge. Now that formed that form the basis for for a presumed violation. An arrest on the new charge is presumptively a violation. So therefore, they took him into custody, which is common. And then while you’re in custody, your probation hasn’t been revoked yet. So conditions still apply. Your probation is running until it’s revoked, even though you’re in jail.

Andy 55:50
Well, that’s Well, I mean, I guess that’s good for counting down time too.

Larry 55:54
Yes. So your probation is running and you are in custody awaiting a disposition of the technical violation which in this case, it was more than technical violation. It was a new charge. And in some cases the state will go ahead and defer resolution of the of the PV until the new charges resolved because they’ve got clear and convincing proof if you plead or if you get convicted, but in this particular case, they had all the convincing evidence they needed because on a recorded line… Now just as a general rule for those who are reading the podcast in prison. They record those calls that you talk on in prison.

Andy 56:28
They tell you they’re gonna record. Don’t give me that crap that’s, like “This call is being recorded.”

Larry 56:35
And the the person who was on probation yet to be revoked, they had a duty to abide by the terms of probation of that no contact order. Now, granted, she reached out we’re taking everything at face value, she reached out to him. Fine, you can’t control that. The mail comes that they handed out to you and you have what you would do is you would say, put this person on a do not contact list. Do not distribute any more mail to me. And then when she sets up the line and request a phone call, you don’t make that phone call. So what what that tells the court is that if you’re in custody, and you can’t follow the restrictions of no contact, what would be the likelihood you could follow them on the outside world? If he did anything to himself, he set himself up for a revocation in my view.

Andy 57:25
Yeah, totally. Totally, totally. Oh, boy. Okay. So, you know, some of some of the people that go to prison aren’t necessarily the brightest bulbs in the in the Christmas tree.

Larry 57:34
Well, we just lost a whole prison subscription list now because of what I just said.

Andy 57:40
Oh, sorry. Except for you guys reading this, you obviously are smarter than the average batch. Got it. Okay. So that should at least cleared some of that up right?

Larry 57:47
Yeah, but but, you know, it’s counterintuitive, but in my view, and I don’t know if I’ll be able to follow this if I don’t get on the listserv. In my view, that is a bonafide violation of probation. It would withstand constitutional challenge. Any appeal would be denied. You had a no contact order. And when they put you on probation if you didn’t like that, no contact, you should have told them I will not accept a no contact order and they will have an alternative program for you.

Andy 58:18
I gotcha. Hey, we got some articles to cover. Oh, wait, we got to acknowledge a message from one of our patrons. This is one of our super-duper over the top awesome, very generous patrons from Tennessee and you wanted to acknowledge him in some form or fashion. What do you want to say?

Larry 58:32
Yes, Justin, thank you for the email. I am super swamped because of the pandemic. But I do intend to reach out to you in response and we’re going to we’re going to set up the consultation but but yeah, the the NARSOL has me doing two jobs right now. (Andy: You should quit.) I know especially with all the all the money that they pay me. And I’ve had, believe it or not, I’ve had more inquiries recently from people who want consultative services, which I do for attorneys. I’m getting more private pay work, and I’ve just I’ve just not had as much time to spare. Plus, I’m old and tired.

Andy 59:15
Are you saying that you need more than 24 hours in a day Larry?

Larry 59:20
Actually, I do have more. Have you looked at my clock? I’m gonna have to turn my camera so you can see my clock. I actually have a 28-hour clock.

Andy 59:26
Oh, outstanding. Actually, but I do want to point out that at a certain tier level, like that is one of the perks is to gain access to have like a private chat with Larry about whatever you want to talk about, whether that be politics or something about your case. And that is at the $50 a month level. And just wanted to throw that out there.

Larry 59:46
And just be clear, it’s not legal advice because I have to be under the supervision of an attorney, but it is, it is consultative advice. And oftentimes, we do find some some situation where it would, it would behoove the person to arrange an attorney which I am delighted to work with if they find a competent attorney. And so, it helps them figuring out if they have an issue that needs to go towards an attorney. When they when we when we finish talking, the person is better prepared to discuss. They know what to say to the attorney and they know they know what the attorney should say to them if that attorney is qualified, and it helps the person and empowers them when when they when they know what the issues are.

Andy 1:00:30
I do understand, um, let’s see here. Okay, so we do have a couple articles to cover. So we’re gonna knock these out really quick and we can get out of here and call it an early night Larry. (Larry: Fantastic.) We got the first one. You put one in here from NACDL news releases it says national criminal defense Barr welcomes new Title IX regulations calls for the restoration of due process on campus is essential. Due process, what is that?

Larry 1:00:57
I put that in there only for one reason. It doesn’t require a lot. The Trump administration which is typically I’m not in agreement with much of their agenda. This is something I do agree with. And I can’t help myself. I’ve said several times that we need due process for people who are accused of crimes. It’s an amazing concept, but it’s enshrined in our Constitution. And I’m glad to see it returning to the college campuses, or is it campi, which is it?

Andy 1:01:27
Uh, campuses.

Larry 1:01:30
I’m glad to see it returning to the colleges. And I agree with this. And I’m glad to see that a reputable organization like the National Association of Criminal Defense Attorneys agree. I agree with them. I’m glad to see they took this posture because we’re in the defense business and people are supposed to be presumed innocent. They’re supposed to be afforded due process, and they’re not supposed to be, they’re not supposed to be disallowed to be engaged in a process and be punished and extricated from campus and all these things that were happening to them without even seeing the evidence or being able to even think about knowing who their accusers are.

Andy 1:02:07
Yeah. It would be, it would be challenging Larry and I please, please understand that I get the innocent until proven guilty, that then tomorrow you go back into class and the person that allegedly that you believe did it is sitting there in class next to you. that would be very disruptive for you. I do want to at least acknowledge that that would be very challenging environment to be in.

Larry 1:02:29
I would acknowledge that as well. And those things can be dealt with through the existing infrastructure. We can do that with no contact orders. Now I don’t mind a no contact order. Because that still doesn’t that doesn’t hamper the person’s defense. It could impede their educational opportunity, but it doesn’t hamper their offense. I resent the hampering and hamstringing of their defense. If you wanted to put a standard no contact, you can’t be within 100 feet, then it’s going to be the accused problem to deal with that no contact order and figure out how they’re going to work around that they may have to drop a class and they may have to I mean, they may have do some things like that. I don’t think you can ban them from the campus altogether. But you can you can put some distance between the person and and and certainly you would want to fashion the order so that it would be clearly that the person sought the contact. We can’t allow the alleged victim to go out of their way to find you on campus and say, Oh, he had contact with me or she had contact with me.

Andy 1:03:18
sort of like the person in the jail cell setting up the secures thing to work things out.

Larry 1:03:23
Correct.

Andy 1:03:25
Alright so there’s some good news of NACDL. And that’s the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers trying to help out with the Title IX stuff. Oh, here’s like a fun one that Con Air I’m sure everyone even you Larry probably have seen the movie Conair is spreading COVID-19 all over the federal prison system. They’re still transporting prisoners around and they’re not tested. Like it’s not that hard at this point to test if somebody has the COVIDs, the human malware and says US Marshals are transporting prisoners without testing them for Coronavirus. If we don’t test Larry then then the numbers would stay low because we don’t know if they have it. That seems fair.

Larry 1:04:03
I don’t see a problem that logic. Now Conair that would be that would be that would be Continental Airlines, right?

Andy 1:04:11
Uh, yes. I’m sure that’s exactly what the Conair stands for. Let’s see. What other con words can we come up with Converse? Like there’s a shoe company. Anything else?

Larry 1:04:25
Well, I said there for a particular reason. I know what Conair is, but I said that because I want someone in chat, I want someone in chat to do a Google. There’s a former chief executive officer of Continental Airlines, a very, very fine chief executive officer. So, this is not in any way a slight on on him. But his name, I want you to Google Gordon Buffoon And tell me what comes up.

Andy 1:04:50
Is that what his name is? It’s Gordon Bethune? B-e-t-h-u-n-e, Bethune.

Larry 1:04:54
Yeah, when you Google Gordon Buffoon, Google has had that search enough times. It comes up with Mr. Bethune.

Andy 1:05:05
Let’s see. Buffoon. Yes it does. Were you searching for Gordon Buffoon?

Larry 1:05:11
Now. So that tells me, a little I understand about algorithms. Someone has searched for the didn’t know how to spell his name. And they put in buffoon. And Google figured out that they were talking about Gordon Bethune.

Andy 1:05:24
I can explain it to you at some point if you’d like Larry.

Larry 1:05:27
Am I close?

Andy 1:05:30
Yes, it’s like when Google Google knows what results they were delivered that they deliver to you. And if you click on this other one, then they now know that you’re typing in this thing wrong. And they say, Oh, maybe, you meant this instead. It’s actually not that complicated. I wrote something similar to it.

Larry 1:05:46
But yes, Mr. Bethune was a fine CEO. He was one like Southwest CEO. He would go to work on the holidays, do line work on the, on the… he felt like if you’re gonna ask the airline employees to come in on Christmas and Thanksgiving, that the executive team should be there as well. So he would come in on holidays and work alongside his team and, and show inspiration to them. And…

Andy 1:06:11
But for… go ahead, go go go.

Larry 1:06:13
in the form of the original CEO of American, not American excuse me, Southwest. Kelleher, His name was escaping me. He used to do the same thing.

Andy 1:06:23
Okay, so and Conair stands for convict air. (Larry: Right.) Why would it be so hard like, okay, I went somewhere today and they put a looked to me like the same like cooking thermometer that I have to test what the temperatures of the skillet. You know, it’s just like a laser infrared thermometer. They stuck that on my forehead and they said, okay, you can do what you got to do. I like it’s not that hard to do some really basic rudimentary checks on people. Even if you don’t have the stick the thingamajigger down your throat to get the, you know, to the actual test.

Larry 1:06:57
Well, but you don’t understand we’ve got a prison system to run and we’ve got to get these people in their assigned institutions. And we can’t hold up progress. Because someone might have a have a fever, slight fever, for God’s sakes. I mean, progress can’t ground grind down to a halt. What’s wrong with you?

Andy 1:07:15
I’m just thinking of the impact of the other side that you put 50 people on this plane, maybe something like that. And one guy, persons got it, gal, guy, gal, and then they spread that to their 50 closest friends and then they’ll spread it to their 50 closest friends. And next thing you know, you have a pandemic. Oh, wait, we do have a pandemic. Oops, my bad.

Larry 1:07:34
Well, it’s it’s one of those things where, how would the prisons operate if they couldn’t move people around? I mean, you’re still I’m guessing they’re still doing intake putting people in prison. The courts are running at some level and, and people people are being classified and they’re being assigned to their institution. What are we going to do just just halt everything?

Andy 1:07:54
No, but you could put people on every other. You’ve flown, the plane, y ou flew a few months ago did they have people separated out to some degree?

Larry 1:08:05
They had separation on Southwest American was not as good about. The American flights were pretty full. Verry little separation and Southwest was far better they they were not selling middle seats at that time now in honestly the middle seats not going to protect you all that much. (Andy: No, I wouldn’t think so. It’d be in between rows and whatnot.) But they were they were doing a PR gesture and actually we’re going off on a tangent here, but I think it’s funny. So I like going off on funny tangents. So alright, people are going to get an education about Eastern Airlines. The late, defunct Eastern Airlines.

Andy 1:08:42
Did you say continental?

Larry 1:08:45
Now we’re going to Eastern, Eastern.

Andy 1:08:47
Okay. Oh, okay you’re moving on to yet another tangent. So a tangent on a tangent?

Larry 1:08:51
A tangent on a tangent. Well the reason why Southwest is doing this. I’m gonna explain why Southwest is doing this. Southwest is doing this to pressure American. American is the weakest airline financially. Delta and Southwest are far stronger carriers and they can take the revenue hits now this is a complete reversal of what happened in ’89, ‘90. Particularly ‘90 when the Middle East or when the when Saddam invaded Kuwait and travel collapsed. So when Saddam invaded Kuwait, and we have a total collapse in travel, Eastern was already struggling and Eastern was financially the weakest of the airlines and the stronger carriers were at that time was American and Delta. And Delta really hit Easter hard, particularly the Atlanta hub. And they they they put $29 flights galore flying out of Atlanta, and they drove the coffin into Eastern Airlines. And that’s exactly what is happening to American now. Except the two stronger carriers is not American now. The two stonger carriers is Southwest and Delta. And they are doing everything they can to drive the nail in the coffin of American and American’s having to respond with doing things that are contrary to their interests like trying to, they can’t afford to have empty seats. So they’ve announced that they’re going back to full capacity they’ve gone back to full capacity. And and this is this is the chickens coming home to roost exactly what American did 30 years ago is being done to them. So that’s what’s funny if you have a sense of humor.

Andy 1:10:29
That’s funny, huh? You like using that term, funny?

Larry 1:10:32
Well, how else would you describe it?

Andy 1:10:35
I would describe it as let’s go on to this New York Times article. (Larry: Alrighty.) Which is also actually funny. It says a Florida Sheriff has ordered his deputies not to wear masks. The sheriff has forbade his deputies from wearing masks while on duty, with some exceptions and also barred visitors to his offices from wearing them. So I walk into the sheriff’s office with a mask, and he says take that crap off and I’m gonna be like, okay? Like No, I’m still wearing it you putz.

Larry 1:11:02
Well, I mean, even you have to admit that that’s funny.

Andy 1:11:09
That’s asinine. That is totally ridiculous over the top. We should just move on.

Larry 1:11:13
Well, I’m surprised that he would be able to pull that off because after after we did our preshow banter, I did a little bit of checking, and it’s not exactly a rural county, I was thinking, well, maybe he could pull that off if he had a force of 12 deputies, but this is the county of 300,000 people. So you’re not talking about a ma and pa operation. You’re talking about a significant population. This is Ocala. And for him to be able to find a crew that would say, Well, I am going to be so loyal to you that I’m going to disregard my safety, my family’s safety and the safety of the citizens that I encounter. And not only that, it seems like it’s counterintuitive. Maybe I’m maybe I’m out of tune with the politics in Ocala, Florida. Maybe the politics are different than what they are here. But it would seem like that, that this would irritate the citizens that if you go to do police businesses, they say, *southern accent* you got to take that thing off before you can come in heye [here].

Andy 1:12:15
Yeah, like you know, you go to a restaurant that says masks are mandatory and the sheriff’s office says no masks are mandatory.

Larry 1:12:24
Now how do you spell that for the translator for the transcriptionist? How do you spell what I just said? You got to take that off before you come in here.

Andy 1:12:31
Hiyah, Oh, my God, that actually sounds like h-e-i-r. Heye, Oh, well, that’s all of that. I want to I want to circle back just real quick that one of the people in chat just going back to the talking about the the AWA thing that we covered a minute ago, is like this like surmises the reason why the podcast exists, it says Okay, thank you. I was just making sure it wasn’t an automatic thing. You will make me feel a great deal more at ease from total distraught, I feel better now. See, we’re helping people Larry.

Larry 1:13:06
That is actually what we set out to do with this is to help people. And, in fact, I have one little announcement I wanted to make for, I’m reaching out to a person who reached out to me, because I can’t find your email. Someone reached out somehow to me about something. And I remember it came in the last week or 10 days and the person said, I have broadcast experience. I can help you. I’m willing to be on and they had a question, please send that email again.

Andy 1:13:40
Somehow it went through my filter and I missed. It went directly to you. You’re not able to find it. I don’t know what it is.

Larry 1:13:46
Well, it may have been that they sent it to me directly, but I have looked high and low using every keyword I can find and I intended to respond to it. And I can’t find it. And I don’t want to let someone down that and I think there’s even a phone number in it. I think I’m supposed to call them anyway, send it to me again. However you did it the first time obviously I got it, I wouldn’t be mentioning it, send it to me again. And this time I’ll mark it unread. And I’ll actually cut it and paste it and put it in the Registry Matters folder so that we don’t lose it again.

Andy 1:14:16
All right, well, you sent this to me and you said, Hey, this is kind of funny. This is a segment from out I don’t want to do that will get taken down if I play this. I got to play it with like some with it mute muted. This is about we’re gonna move on after this. We won’t we won’t spend a lot of time here. But this is about an institution for troubled teens. You know, like a disciplinary school I suppose. The kid seems to be like throwing some food around. And can you then describe what happens after that Larry?

Larry 1:14:48
Well, the way I would describe it, it was it was actually difficult to watch and it was on NBC Nightly News last night. So those of you who who actually can still access the Traditional newscast. That’s where I got it. They swarmed him the the big burly staffers, they swarmed him and they smothered him until he quit breathing. And then they waited several minutes. Was it 9, 10 minutes before they called 911 and said they had an unresponsive student minutes. And he he was a he was a guy, 16 years old, I think what they said but if everybody that had thrown something at a cafeteria got smothered, suffocated to death when I was in school, I mean, it didn’t happen continuously, but things got tossed. I tossed a milk carton I remember I was thinking about did I ever do? I think I tossed a milk carton I was I was showing how what a good shot I was with a milk carton and I tossed a milk carton and I missed the trashcan and coach Brandon said if we allowed that to go and he said we’d have things flying all over the lunchroom. And I got sent to detention. I believe this was that was what it was but but this seems over the top and I just like that it’s such a sad thing that that that was the reaction for that level of misbehavior.

Andy 1:16:07
So pass a counterfeit potentially counterfeit bill, die. And throw some food in the lunchroom and die. I that’s that’s the pattern here. Got it. Is that characterized? Do you think do you think I’m exaggerating the characterization there?

Larry 1:16:22
Well, I hope that there’s justice for this. I think I think that they need to look at the school, the company said they were. They had been revamping their policies in terms of restraint and apparently the word didn’t get out to this particular school but I just don’t see it. I know I’m probably a liberal do good bleeding heart, but I just don’t see this this this level of reaction for a 16-year-old kid.

Andy 1:16:46
Huh? It’s crazy. Crazy Crazy. Is there anything else that we can cover before we shut this down and move on? We’re gonna looks like Larry wants to do another Patreon extra this week. So if you if you liked last week’s Patreon extra then awesome. If you would like to hear Patreon extras, then you could sign up over a Patreon. And I guess if you didn’t like it, then don’t listen to them. Is that fair?

Larry 1:17:06
And on this one, and again we’re going to bash the Democratic Party.

Andy 1:17:12
But we don’t do that because you’re a pointy headed liberal do gooder.

Larry 1:17:16
So, if you, if you like, the Democratic Party being bashed, and believe me, this is sincere bashing. It’s not because I know that the audience tends to be more conservative, but I feel strongly about the two things we’re going to talk about. And so therefore, we’re going to be talking about the Democratic Party.

Andy 1:17:32
All right, Larry, where can people find this program for them to download and listen to it?

Larry 1:17:38
It’s on the internet.

Andy 1:17:40
On the internet, like, the whole world wide web just would you DuckDuckGo would you use Bing? How about Ask Jeeves. Maybe you could go that route? Gopher?

Larry 1:17:50
You could search using whatever search mechanism you have, or you could just go directly to registrymatters.co and you will find it but If you do a search for Registry Matters, it’ll pop up on every engine that I’ve tried.

Andy 1:18:05
That is very correct as far as I know. And as the person said in the voicemail message, they just fired up their trusty rusty podcast app and search for it in there and it showed up. How about using the antiquated phone system where they call the operator and they asked to be connected to us?

Larry 1:18:18
That would be 747-227-4477. (Andy: And the email address that Larry never checks?) Well, that one doesn’t come to me directly. That’s registrymatterscast@gmail.com.

Andy 1:18:37
And of course, we love all of our listeners, but especially our patrons and how can people support the podcast directly?

Larry 1:18:42
Well, I was I was fishing for those stimulus checks that are coming, that I thought were going to be coming. But I, in the extra we’re not sure that that’s something I’m going to say I’m not so sure about now, but that would be www.patreon.com.

Andy 1:19:02
Now wait a minute, a couple episodes back. You said it was coming. I went and spent that money already.

Larry 1:19:08
You did? Well, I think you should ask for a refund from wherever you spent it.

Andy 1:19:13
Whoops. Well, Larry, I appreciate it as always, and I’ll see you on the other side of the Patreon extra. Thank you so much. Have a great night.

Larry 1:19:21
Good night, everybody.

 


Transcript of RM139: What State Should I Move To?

Listen to RM139: What State Should I Move To?

Andy 00:00
We’d like to thank our patrons for supporting this episode of registry matters. Recording live from fyp Studios, east and west, transmitting across the internet. This is Episode 139 of registry matters, Larry, I feel like we’ve kind of already been doing something for a little while.

Larry 00:15
I think we have.

Andy 00:18
Okay, so it’s coming up in a future section of the podcast that we’re recording live now. But we’re going to roll back in time. There is an interview with a with an individual about federal supremacy, is that right?

Larry 00:32
That is what was there discussing the federal supremacy in terms of the sex offender registration regimes.

Andy 00:40
Okay. And I yeah, so I’ll let that that’s about a 20 ish, 15 minute interview coming up. later in the show. We have a usual cadre of a handful of articles and then we have a couple like we have a decision, I think and then another question coming out of Wyoming. All kinds of stuff going on tonight. New patrons. Some exciting, exciting time to be In the podcasting business for

Larry 01:02
pf Rs, and as we’ve got a dozen people in chat

Andy 01:06
we do it’s also it’s a good night of people in the discord. It’s how can people join the discord? Larry,

Larry 01:14
you can become a patron for as little as $100 per month.

Andy 01:21
dollars. Wow, transcription person, can you replace that with $1? It is only $1 later it’s not 100 Okay, well,

Larry 01:29
does it hurt to be hurt to be optimistic?

Andy 01:34
And it does not that is a definitely a true statement.

Larry 01:37
And I truly can’t imagine anybody would be kind enough to give us $100 a month but we have some very generous patrons. But $100 would be quite quite generous.

Andy 01:48
You say that we have some people that are just shy of it. They’re

Larry 01:52
well and then of course I’m asking for the for the second stimulus checks, but you have to create a 1200 dollar You’re gonna need to create a 1200 dollar when it did, you’re gonna need to create the maximum whatever family can get, because whatever it turns out to be the family maximum, you can create that.

Andy 02:08
Oh, so you could have 45 kids and you’ve capped out somewhere prior to that.

Larry 02:13
Yes, there’s a there’s gonna be a family max. So we can, we can put 1200 dollar and then we could put the family max.

Andy 02:20
Listen, I like I can’t even really, like comprehend and handle one child. How do people have two and three and sick like, I those numbers don’t make sense to me. I’m just not like wired for to be around kids. They hurt me.

Larry 02:34
I don’t understand it. I couldn’t do it. But I’m glad they do it because we need all we can to, like keep saying that they need to pay into these systems that us older folks have our paws out to get money from. We don’t realize Someone has to contribute so we can receive.

Andy 02:51
You know, let me let’s let’s go back to the stimulus check. Didn’t you say it was gonna happen?

Larry 02:56
Well, I think I did. But a lot of folks have said it’s going to happen. Yes.

Andy 03:01
And does that like lead us down to announcing a Patreon extra this week?

Larry 03:07
Oh, yes, we are going to have a Patreon we’re going to talk about the political lineup of what’s going on between the President and the and the Senate and the House. And what what’s likely to ensue going forward. And I think it’s it’s just for political junkies like me, I love it.

Andy 03:27
All right. And so we were going to record that after we record this tonight and get that that’ll come out like I don’t know, Wednesday or Thursday. And again, if you want to listen to the Patreon extra, become a patron for as little as $1 a month and you’ll get seriously Larry, like I it’s gonna sound like I’m blowing smoke but you really are an expert analyst at like figuring this out. You may not like this political candidate, you may they may be your favorite and you will pretty much treat them even like if you hate the person but they do something smart. You will give them credit for being smart. And if Somebody that you think is awesome, and they do something dumb, you’ll tell them that they’ve done something dumb. I don’t know where else you can get this kind of detailed political analysis. So I think you’re great.

Larry 04:09
Thank you, Andy. And we’re going to talk about tonight, some brands on behalf of the President. So that that should inspire people to become a patron to hear me talking about to bring out for the President.

Andy 04:21
Okay, sounds like a plan. Um, alright, let’s let’s kick things off. I have no idea where I picked this up from I don’t know if I had to have come in from an email, but you know, and I kind of new to it to make sure that it’s a little bit vague on who it is. But so here’s one says, just discovered y’all. Great job. Pretty much had this exact question about SORNA. And I think you answered it about my registration requirements expiring under SORNA. After my 10 years, even my tier one offense says 15. I read and I’m in Texas and attorneys page that said I would have to petition the court to undergo an evaluation excuse me undergo an evaluation that would determine if I could get off after 10 years and I am wondering If that was a scan, as you said, or where I could find that information that says I will be off after the 10 years if I don’t get into any more trouble. Also, there’s a list of states that say if I would or would not be required to register after that 10 years, I’m waiting to maybe move to some better weather. Thank you for all that you do.

Larry 05:20
Well, I really liked the question because it sounds like that part of what we’ve talked about may have been misconstrued. And what we talked about it on the under the federal guidelines, a person as a tier one can be released if the state chooses to, to adopt that particular aspect of the registration scheme. They can allow tier ones to simply vanish if they’ve completed their those 10 years without any felony level conviction. And they’ve completed probation successfully and gone through a treat But I think those are the three main components. But that doesn’t mean that the state is required to adopt that. And if the state doesn’t adopt it, the federal law is meaningless because that was a recommendation to the to the to the States. And that was something that states are allowed to do but not required to do. So there is no mechanism that would automatically time you out, because federal law says or tier one offense is is actually 15 years when there’s a five year reduction permitted. permitted. But that doesn’t mean it’s in the statute of that state. And in terms of whether it’s a scam in Texas. I can’t say it’s a scam, but I can say this. Texas has a very, very difficult process to be removed. All offenders all offenses are not eligible. And you have to go through some evaluation process that see costs or something I forget what it is, we should have Mary Sue from Texas Come on, but there was an evaluation process you have to go through That entity has to give you the clearance, and then the court may grant it. And so you need to figure out if your offense disqualifies you from the get go. You need to find figure out if you think you can pass that evaluation process. And since I’m not intelligent enough to tell you about it, I don’t have depth converse with a person who’s gone through it. You will need to find out what that process is like. They do need to find out. If the place where you’re going to file the petition is disposed to let people be released from the obligation, assuming you’re eligible and assuming you get that good evaluation. There’s a lot of unknowns. So I will tell you before handing a bunch of money to an attorney, you need to talk to somebody in Texas and Texas voices. Although there’s only one person there who is trying to talk to everyone this mersive Mater, Mary Sue, does return phone calls, she does return emails, and she’s a very nice lady, and she would probably be able to tell you based on the geography of Texas, what part Texas your room, she can say, well, they never let anybody else there. And if you don’t qualify from the get go, why would you want to waste your money? So you need to figure out if if you’re even eligible if you’re fucked if you’re financing back. You’re finishing something up. I’ll say if your offense disqualifies you, there’s no point to go forward. Yeah, sure.

Andy 08:19
Oh, but there was some feather ruffling. Let’s call it have somebody in Texas sending out letters like, Can we circle back to that real quick? Is that ethical of sending out letters like, hey, like, maybe you’re on the registry, I can help you get off or something like is that ethical to do?

Larry 08:35
Well, again, I’m assuming it is. I know it is. In my State, it is. Law, your advertising was frowned upon. And decades past, but as as lawyer has become a business and trying to keep a business afloat requires customers, lawyers have been allowed to advertise. And there’s absolutely In my opinion, nothing wrong with reaching out to people and letting them know that you exist and offered to provide your service that in and of itself, I don’t believe will be unethical in Texas, where the or the ethics become compromised, that’s when the person requires money and a large sum to tell you that you’re not eligible. Or if they don’t bother to tell you are not eligible, and they take your money knowing that you’re not eligible. If you can look at this writers offense and see that he’s not eligible statutorily. You do not need to take enough his money that can be eliminated and initial screening. And, and if that’s not he wants what he wants to hear. He will call another lawyer and another and another till he hears what he wants to hear and someone will eventually gladly take his money. But, but that’s what happens when you tell people they don’t want to hear that oftentimes, they keep calling and calling and calling. But there’s nothing inherently wrong with sending out the more you advertise, but it has to be disclosed as a lawyer advertisement and then again, Lauria needs to be ethical and tell you that, that you do or do not qualify. And they may need to do a consultation at a modest cost to tell you you do or not do or do not qualify that you’re not eligible. I mean, for them to dig deep enough into your facts, they may need to sit down with you and have some document review and do some analysis. And that is time and time is all the lawyer has to sell.

Andy 10:23
That would be true. I mean, they don’t let’s see, do they make tables and chairs? No, they don’t make automobiles Yeah. So that all they have is like their intellectual property and their time.

Larry 10:31
Got it. That just That is correct. And when you get into a professional such as loitering, there’s a finite amount of time. And there’s a lot of people competing for it. And there’s a lot of overhead that goes with being a lawyer and so they have to figure out some way to to make a lot of their time produce income.

Andy 10:49
We have spoken you know an attorney. I mean, probably even a cheap attorneys like 150 an hour, something like that. Maybe Is that fair?

Larry 10:59
That’s That’s really cheap these days.

Andy 11:01
Sure. And but you know, so it doesn’t take that many hours to burn up a $5,000 bill when an attorney is going to have to put in 20 hours of work or something like it just doesn’t take that long to, to consume it up pretty substantial amount of money at those kind of rates. But yeah, they did spend 100 hundred 50 grand on college.

Larry 11:21
That is correct. So just like a round fee of 250 an hour. And, and you’re and you do a $5,000 fee. I mean, you got 20 hours well, and that 20 hours, let’s say if we were going to do a registration petition in a state such as Georgia to do it correctly, and the people have heard this podcast before, there’s a lot of work goes into it. Now. It is cookie cutter, you do have a template for the petition of things you’re going to plug into it. But to plug the stuff in, you’ve got to you’ve got to meet with your client to figure out what to plug in. And to do it right you really need to make that journey to the prosecutor’s office. It’s a very minimal by phone if anybody takes phone calls anymore, but but you need to have an A deep conversation with a prosecution figure out what their stance is going to be. And you need to prepare your witness to testify. The judges don’t want to hear from the person who’s asking to be removed from the registry. That requires time. When you when you figure preparing the petition, investigating it before you prepare the petition, meeting with the prosecution talking with him prepare your client for a hearing, conducting the hearing and travel time, it doesn’t take a lot to see how you can burn up 20 hours. Right. So but I tell people when I say you’re looking at a $5,000 fee, they roll their eyes and I’m saying well, you know, if we had a petition process here, I can assure you that I would not quote anything less than that at this office, because to quote anything less than that we couldn’t do the work that would be required to do a thorough job and that you’re looking at a psychosexual evaluation on top of that your it would be strongly encouraged that you have occurred eval.

Andy 12:57
Very good. Let’s bounce over to a handful Have a news items because these are just kind of funny for the most part funny haha and funny like Wow, that’s really sad funny, but the first one comes from the AB q journal like, that’s not how the alphabet goes a B says no, it’s anyway. So this a b q so this from Albuquerque fugitive finally nabbed after 50 years on the lam, a, Larry, tell me about this because this is in your neck of the woods. Well, I

Larry 13:23
just sold that on the front page of the Albuquerque journal today. And I took a glance at it. It looks like one of his relatives turned him in he he’d been on the run for a long time.

Unknown Speaker 13:32
So they found me Sure

Andy 13:33
I know your philosophy about the guy being on the run for so long. Like it’s good. Go ahead and go through it.

Unknown Speaker 13:38
Well, I don’t see that he made any mistakes. You don’t get to choose your relatives. So he didn’t make a mistake there. But he was you have to hand it to the guy. He escaped twice. He escaped twice. Yes. So he got he got out the first time that he escaped second time. Second time he did it right stayed on the road for nearly 50 years. And he said 77 years old now. So I have to give the guy kudos.

Andy 14:05
Some frequently say, so he spent so many years out, like not in prison and didn’t reoffend obviously, then they would have captured and put it back in. So to say that he like, rehabilitate, maybe that’s not the right word, but he shares shit didn’t reoffend.

Larry 14:18
I would, I mean, if I were in a position to consider a clemency request from this person, I don’t know how that would what the process is. It’s a Colorado conviction, right? I don’t know what the process is. But he, he he certainly has lived an exemplary life, by all accounts, and he’s not a threat at age 77. And he didn’t serve old enough. He didn’t serve all this time, but there’s no need to put him in jail. But that’s exactly what they’ll do. They’ll put him in jail and they’ll try to teach him a lesson about how he should have he should not have escaped and he shouldn’t have but the fact is, yeah, he’s he’s not gonna he’s not going to do since the society that was on point but they will So

Andy 15:02
77 they’ve had they’ve made some movies with some old geezers people your age running around like committing crimes, robbing usually it’s like robbing something kind of white collar ish. You know? Not not really you know that no high speed car chase, everything is in there. Their little scooters go in two or three miles an hour.

Larry 15:18
So well, we’ll have to follow this and see what they do with him, but I’m betting that they’ll still want him to serve out the remainder of his time.

Andy 15:29
Let’s uh, let’s head over to the Washington Post real quick where he sent this to me a few days ago. It says Colorado police apologize. Over viral video of officers, handcuffing Black Girls, in a mistaken stop. Do you know what I just noticed Larry? And I heard a podcast talking about this. Do you notice in the article that black is capitalized, I didn’t

Unknown Speaker 15:48
pay that any attention.

Andy 15:50
I didn’t at the time either. I’ve just heard that. There’s a there’s a movement to take things such as, as blood Referring to race and making it something of a proper case so that you can see it as being you know important in that regard I’d never I would never even notice it had I not heard this podcast in the last week or so and I didn’t notice it when I first looked at it but anyway, so this is something of a traffic stop and the car was stolen but no longer stolen. Anyway, they have these four these four people like cuffed it on the ground face down. This is this is terrible.

Larry 16:29
It was it was children also that that was the sad thing about it for me, it’s children and the police force doesn’t look particularly diverse. Did you? Did you notice that?

Unknown Speaker 16:41
Yeah, I did. I did. I did. Then

Andy 16:44
I watched the video and they look there’s there’s a pretty hefty cop there and he did something and he would think they were not treating them poorly other than them being facedown on the ground. And cops copters This is true and they are cuffed, but He does have some interaction in the video and he’s not like snatching their shoulders at a socket. I’ve just given the circumstance like, I mean, he could have been a complete prick

Larry 17:09
for what he has to be at the age of the kid.

Andy 17:13
There’s the one on the right of 10, something like that.

Larry 17:17
Yeah. And that’s what’s sad to me about it. There’s so these just family,

Andy 17:23
the six six to 17 Larry, so that kid is six. There’s another one there we can’t see. So well. This is

Larry 17:29
this is very traumatic for a child and the vehicle that they were driving, as best I can understand it had been stolen, but it was not stolen at that time. And then the cops are saying but the same number, the license plate was stolen, but it was out another state, you know, the same sequence but from a different state. But they have these protocols where they treat everybody in a stolen car as the day Dangerous felon and, and I resent that because children a six year old is not going to pull something out of the rectum and fired at the cop. So so so if it if it’s a cop switch issues a little bit of kindness when they’re dealing with children and there’s a couple ways I can think of they could have handled it, they could had the children exit first and put the children in a safe care like with social services till they sorted out if the parents are criminals or not. But the children would be given teddy bears and comfort. Particularly the small one. And, and and then and then the this this lack of diversity. This is why people in the minority communities feel the way they do about cops because they don’t understand why this happened to them. For the for the cop to run the plate. There was probably some profiling that went on for the plate to be running. For a show up in NCIC is stolen, but it shouldn’t have been stolen so easily. Cops dropped the ball when that car was originally reported stolen, didn’t remove NCIC. But this was a bunch of mistakes. And the police chief to her credit, apologized, and she said that she wanted to give the cops discretion to not require this type of interaction, or stolen car Chief, I would say go one step further. Don’t just give up discretion, because they’ll continue to do this require that they not do this. And you tell them the circumstances, like children are not treated this way. You tell them what you don’t want them to do. Because otherwise they’re gonna say four offers for safety. I still felt I had to do this. So discretion is not enough. You gotta have to spell it out for them what they’re not allowed to do.

Andy 19:50
And to not sit there for terribly long. We’re going to go over to an article from 530, which is one of my favorite publications, Larry. And it says many Americans are Convinced crime is rising in the US. They’re wrong. And I still think back to I think it was the first norsok conference in Atlanta and you did your little speech and you threw an FBI chart up there. And it was almost like, I think when Obama was doing a State of the Union speech, someone stood up and said, You lie. And you said something about crime is the lowest it’s ever been in something and someone stood up and was basically ready to throw tomatoes at you while you were doing your presentation.

Larry 20:27
Well, and that is, that is why I throw this kind of stuff in there because you hear about these protests in Portland, Seattle, and you hear about these disturbances switch. They’re, they’re bad. If you live, if you live the area where they’re having to serve less disturbance can get out of hand and you can have property damage and human loss of human life and injuries. But they act because if statistics the first time in the nation’s history that we’ve ever had any disturbances in a civil unrest, and I said, Well, do you know the history of this country See, we had In a civil war, and then we had the civil rights in the 1960s, they were major, major disturbances. And 1968 was when, when the assassination of Martin Luther King, and then you had the riots in Chicago, you had the 65 watts riots in LA, you had. I mean, we have had this type of stuff before. And we’ve had a far higher crime rate in this country than we have at the present time. But for some reason, people don’t realize that they think that crime is just off the charts. And it is not, this is the safest time. Let me say this one more time. This is the safest time to be alive. And most of our lifetimes, the time we’re in right now, and unless you’re in a city that has a serious problem, which we have some cities are having serious crime issues. Chicago, a St. Louis are some places where you wouldn’t want to be but is the best time to be alive for most of our lives.

Andy 22:06
Why do you think it is that crime has plummeted over the last roughly 40 or 50 years?

Larry 22:15
Well, I don’t I don’t know. And I think there may not be a reason there may be a combination of reasons. It’s the the, the demographic change, but a part of it the crime wave that was committed by people in my generation from the baby boomers, they’ve aged out of crime. And technology’s had a lot to do with it. In terms of the evolving technology, there’s just a whole lot the solvability of criminal behavior is so much greater now than it used to be. So forensics and video surveillance and all the things that make crimes more solvable. It’s hard to get away with crime these days. It’s like, think about stealing a car. Can you remember? I don’t know if you’re old enough. Can you remember how easy it used to be to hotwire a car?

Andy 22:59
Yeah, you would Just cross some wires, you’re not it, you can still do it. But it requires a lot of technology. Yeah,

Larry 23:04
to try to hotwire a car today. Tell me how that works out for you.

Andy 23:10
You know, you could go, you could go to your local Ace Hardware, whatever, and you could get a key cut and the key will go in there and it will probably start the car, but that’s going to be the end of that story, that you’re not gonna be able to get into the gear or anything like that.

Larry 23:21
So so so technology has changed. Some will argue that our harshness on crime has put people away that were career criminals. They will they will say, see, our our toughness worked. And so I don’t know the answer to it, but I know that that crime is down, has trended down since the late 80s and 90s. And my city unfortunately, we’ve had an uptick in crime we’re not at we’re not at historic levels, but we have had a crime has gone up particular property crimes, burglaries of residences, or businesses and stuff, that we’re having a real high rate of economic crime in this in this town. I think that might be a given due to poverty, that could be a contributing factor where we’re 4910 per capita income. Wow.

Andy 24:09
All right. And then I don’t even know what study this is just go get the show notes. But it’s papers.ssrn.com with a bunch of stuff after it. I just really wanted to. There’s nothing here that I really want to go into. But it’s a it’s a research paper that says Me too, and the myth of the juvenile sex offender, this came across one of the feeds that advocates are into, and I think I think the gist of it, I think I can just read the I conclude with a counter intuitive suggesting that decriminalization and decarceration efforts should not only include conduct labeled as sex offenders, but likely should begin with them. transforming our approach to sexual harm is one key piece of an abolitionist vision that seeks to move beyond carceral approaches to achieving racial and gender justice. It’s a it’s a paper that described that we should probably do the sex offender thing last Horse then what we we do

Larry 25:04
so that’s it

Andy 25:05
I just wanted to bring it to our people’s attention

Larry 25:07
that’s what I took from it

Andy 25:10
and from there so we already did we spoke to Ethan that was about Illinois so then we can move over to Indiana correct

Larry 25:22
but why don’t we do why don’t we do Wyoming Wyoming it’s way more fun in Yeah.

Andy 25:28
Very good than Wyoming it is. Um, I’m I pretty much trim the whole email message. We’ve received an email message from a soon to be patron that’ll answer not soon to be but a soon to be that I will announce it later became a patron and but from the email message that says I can work from anywhere in the world. I would really like to stay in the United States. There are parts of the government that I do not agree with, but I fought for my country and I am very patriotic. What state can I go to where I can get off of the registry in the least amount of time I have done my own reading. But I feel like you need a law degree to interpret all the statutes from the different states. I couldn’t move to any of the 50 states or territories. I do prefer to stay in the continental continental US. Any help you could give me would be greatly appreciated. I do want to point out that even getting these kind of emails, this is like someone asking for almost like personal help. And we are not in that business. But you wanted to bring this in? Because it’s an interesting question that may help other people as well. It is because without giving him personal advice, I can tell him what he needs to do to figure out the answer to his own question. And so what we’re going to start with is that I did a little cramp prep in Wyoming ahead and read the Wyoming statutory scheme and a number of years. And just for those who are not familiar with Wyoming, it actually is a state that has a population of somewhere around 600,000

Larry 26:54
geographically it’s quite large. So there’s there’s no real urban centers in Wyoming. I think shy Probably the largest urban center and it has 100,000 people in it or something. And, and they, at one time had a decent registration scheme. There was risk based and most people weren’t publicly accessible. And they changed that in oh seven. And so what we’re going to do and and he’s still here, right, they will come we can we can bring him if we need to. Okay. So what we’re going to do is talk about how you would go about answering that question. And the answer of the question depends on you. I will remember, it’s not been that long ago that early in the pandemic, Governor Cuomo of New York said, what happens to you will largely depend on what you do, and how, how you. What you do here, in terms of your unique circumstances is what’s important to determine the outcome for you and the State of Wyoming. The research reveals that they Have a 1525 and lifetime registration and they are substantially compliant with the federal animal shack. And this individual would have a 25 year obligation in the State of Wyoming. And so what what a person would want to do in a case like this would be to figure out if they would have a shorter obligation in another state for that offense. So that that requires a little bit of legal training to figure out what that how that offense would align in other state. So you would do the analysis to figure out how that would translate to another state, how they treat non convictions from other jurisdiction, including federal convictions. So you would you would see how that aligns with that state scheme. Then once you figure out where you think you fall, you may fall in a state where they don’t care. It’s just a flat out fixed amount of time is 10 years For example, four month is 10 years unless you’re a repeat offender. And I think there’s another category that can get you longer, but the bulk of people are Vermonters 10 years. So that doesn’t require a lot of legal study and in Vermont to figure it out, but you would figure out and then the next thing you’d want to know, is if you would automatically time off or if you have to petition the petitions The last thing you want to do, because most of the states they don’t, they don’t automatically grant to petition it’s a made really view not shell really. And right so so therefore, you end up in a conundrum or you have to file a petition. So if I had my rather’s I would go to a state where automatically timed out. And, and and if there was a such a state that my offense would be 10 years. I would even hope that they gave credit for the offense for the time I’ll just register it on another state. They may or may not. I think Maine for example. does give credit. There’s some states that that don’t give credit mine doesn’t. So you’d start all over. Hypothetically, if you had a 10 year registration obligation here, you’d start from scratch. Now that particular offense would be a lifetime for my state. So there would be no incentive whatsoever to consider coming to New Mexico because all you would do is go from a state that has a potential to petition for removal to a state that doesn’t and you’d be a lifetime here. And at 25 year old balding so you would go from bad to worse. So we can rule out New Mexico from the get go in that particular situation, but let’s take a look at the removal process, which is on Dropbox for Wyoming. And you can get it’s called petition for removal Wyoming. Yep. And I’ve done some highlights in there. And, and so for for a 15 year registered in the first section, upon showing that the offender has maintained to clean records provided in subsection D of this section for 10 years to district May or the offender be relieved of duty to get to your registration. So therefore, those lucky ones that are in the 50 year category, they can get off after 10. And then those but which fall into the category that he’s on a punch with a defender has maintained a clean record as provided in subsection D of this section for 25 years, the district court may or the offender. Now this is what I pontificate about. The Adam Walsh Act does not require this. There’s no petition required. When you reach the 25 year point or the 15. Your point, you just simply time out there was no reason for the state to put this under law. It wasn’t required, they would have gotten their precious data via compliance without having this in here. So all they did was made it so that people would who would have the opportunity just to sunset and disappear like a you know what in the wind. They they They have to spend a whole bunch of money. And they might be able to disappear into the wind, so that I don’t like it. And if you scroll down to the bottom, here’s here’s the offender seeking reduction because they’re wildly they’ve changed a lot every once in a lifetime. And then you can get off if you fall into one of the two categories where they can petition. Here’s what you have heavy no conviction of an offense for a prison more than a year. That’s a web heavy no sex offense conviction that’s sent to AWS and successfully completed either peers and supervisors and probation parole and successfully compete except for treatment. All this in the AWS for a tier one to get that five year reduction, because it’s a 50 year period with a five year reduction. If you’ve done these things, even a tier one and AWS, what they’re radically sunset after 50 years if they didn’t do any of these things, except for a conviction which would which would roll you up if they got another one. x events conviction, they would roll up to a tier two because that’s the definition of a tier two on their AWS standards. If you were previously at tier one, you pick up another offense that you’d be a two tier tier two under a W criteria. But all this wasn’t necessary. So, so again, this is just as bad as California, where I said that very few people, if any, will get off. This wild man, the only thing that looks good to me Wyoming is it looks like you can form shop because it doesn’t say you will file where you were convicted. It says you file where you live. So theoretically, if there was such a place in Wyoming that was letting more people off, you could theoretically file if I read it correctly, you could theoretically file there but you’d need to talk to a Wyoming practitioner and to make sure that I haven’t missed something here because this is not legal advice. This is simply be telling you what I see a black letter, but But uh, so so I would, if I were this individual, I would do some analyzing of what my offense would align on another state that I’m interested going. And I would see what their processes are if they just automatically timeout or if they have to file a petition. And that’s what I would do to figure it out. And I’m happy. That’s one of the services I happen to provide for attorneys that can’t figure this out, I help them figure out how their personal might get off the registry, and if they’re eligible.

Andy 34:18
So what you describe, though, you make like a matrix, and, like, right off the bat, like you said, for New Mexico, we could also immediately mark off Florida because as soon as you show up there, you’re gonna have to register for life. And you could at least, I don’t know, maybe 10 states would be like, immediately crossed out, almost. And then you start moving down and trying to figure out which one would be the least worstest.

Larry 34:41
Wouldn’t it be better to start to states that you’d like to be on and then and then and then analyze those,

Andy 34:46
then maybe this person is just he doesn’t care which of the 57 states that we do have, he just wants to be in one of them that is better than where he is?

Larry 34:57
Well, why don’t we Why don’t we open this mic and ask him if this was helpful. If he has any questions, because we got a little bit of time here.

Andy 35:04
I will do it. So Paul, you are now unmuted, so stop cussing and all that. So welcome, Paul, how are you?

Paul 35:11
I’m doing pretty good. Thanks for. Thanks for having me.

Andy 35:14
You’re welcome. And you’re welcome. You should have any additional questions or feedback to sharpen this whole thing. Well, first of all, you sound you sound

Paul 35:21
fantastic. I don’t know what kind of micro but but but that sounds the best I’ve heard.

Paul 35:26
Well, I, I make video games. And one of the things for my video games I also do voiceovers and things like that. So I got a pretty good setup

Larry 35:35
yourself.

Andy 35:36
Understand that the microphone matters.

Paul 35:38
It’s really

Andy 35:40
interesting.

Paul 35:43
However, my mics only like 30 bucks. So it’s not like I spent a lot of money on a mic.

Andy 35:48
So I understand that too. I’ve been there.

Larry 35:52
He’s poking fun at me because I wanted to do those. We were we were we were we were on the road a few weeks ago. And I said, I’ll do the podcast by phone and he said no way, so I wouldn’t have that kind of crap out there.

Paul 36:03
Okay, so there’s a funny story for that. And this is kind of off topic, but on Wednesday, I was part of the call with the White House about COVID. Um, I can’t really talk about what was talked in that because it’s, it’s not for the press, it was off record. Um, but there was a rear admiral that spoke and he had to do with logistics, like getting things for point A to point B, um, for the PP and whatever else people need. And it sounded like he was in like a Humvee or something. And he was talking on a cell phone, and then for a little while, he went completely silent. I’m like it the whole pot, the nut podcast, it was like a group call or something. The whole call was dead for about five minutes while he was trying to figure out how to fix his mic. Um, so I just, I guess everyone else was was perfect. I mean, we had all these big names in Washington that were part of this call. And, you know, he was just completely It sounded very unprofessional on his side, which I found very interesting.

Larry 37:06
So well, and he’s a big one on sound and he’s really worked to make sure that we sound good in terms of the equipment and the hookup.

Paul 37:15
Yeah, even though me and Andy disagree with politics, I’m really impressed with it. He’s he does a lot. And he’s, he’s just amazing to me, and I can see so far. Thank you. But anyways, it helped a lot. If I had my choice. I would live in Florida, if there was no registry, and the reason is our parents live there. They’re elderly. My mom’s very ill. And I would love to

Andy 37:40
go to where we’re in Florida because you could just be in Georgia. I wouldn’t say Alabama, but you could be in the southern part of Georgia. Sarah, travel.

Larry 37:48
Oh, that’s too far. That’s the coast like Tampa. Yes. South of Tampa. Yeah. He would have to drive a long way to get to

Paul 37:57
them on occasion. And I’m permanently on the internet for being registered in Florida now. Oh, even though you’re already registered for like a month. Mmm hmm.

Larry 38:08
What? What did you see already registered? What did you do spend some time in Florida and register already?

Paul 38:14
Yeah, I did that when?

Paul 38:17
Back in 2016. Did that mean my kids went down there for the summer? Well, for a month? Well,

Larry 38:24
you should have registered in that amount of time because they, they, they would have they would frown on it. But But

Paul 38:31
I do that everywhere I go, or effect tried to go to the Christian Game Developers Conference. It was in Oregon, in Portland, Oregon. And I called I can’t remember who the authority was. I think it was the local police department for that particular Sex Offender Registry authority. And they said there is no restriction on where you can live or be within the state. Um, and you don’t have to register because you’re not going to be here. That one. I said, All right. Cool. So I went ahead and call the cop the universe. That the this was gonna be at. And they said, We have no restrictions but it’s really up to the organizers. So I called the organizers and the organizer said, yeah, we don’t really want you here.

Paul 39:12
This is a Christian Game Developers Conference.

Andy 39:17
Don’t get us started on that one. It’s that’s the Forgiving people and they’re not very forgiving very often. I just

Paul 39:23
thought that was entertaining. I looked at Oregon, because from what I understand in Oregon, I would be like a tier one. And it would be for law enforcement only wouldn’t even be published. But, um, I don’t know if that’s accurate, because I’m not sure since I’m coming from another state, if they would take on a side note, um, Oregon’s really really liberal and it’s also very, very expensive. Um, so I’m, I’m, I don’t know if I actually want to live in Oregon. Vermont on the side. It

Paul 39:54
would be pretty though it would be beautiful living there though.

Paul 39:57
Oh, yeah. For Oregon’s amazing it looks Very good. I’m Vermont on the other hand is one of the ones I looked at um, I just wasn’t sure that was actually number one on my list was Vermont I’m glad you mentioned that earlier Larry because that’s probably it sounds like a good spot

Larry 40:16
it all sounds expensive so it’s really not that it’s really not that bad unless you unless you’re landing in the realm what is the Burlington where the university is it’s kind of expensive there but of robots largely rule there’s there’s some relatively modest places to live as long as you don’t try to get it to the to the college town.

Paul 40:37
Do they have like restrictions on how far I can live and all that?

Larry 40:42
I’d have to do some research last time I looked at it the laws did DOD in Vermont, and of course with a podcast that I was talking about it they’re gonna they’re gonna their legislature is gonna say, well, we’re, we’re we’re inviting people to come here. But they their laws have been relatively tame in Vermont for a long time. They didn’t use to put your street Address even if you were required to build the Internet, and they didn’t put everyone on the internet, they’ve expanded the the universe of people that are actually getting listed, but it has your town it’ll say, john smith, Burlington, Vermont, it won’t say john smith and the street address in Burlington, Vermont. And then you just mail it you mail in a form every year. And and unless unless that’s changed. That’s, that’s pretty, pretty modest in terms of requirements. And there were no restrictions on where you could live if you’re not under supervision. But I would have to update my research.

Paul 41:27
And speaking of requirements,

Paul 41:30
I don’t mind if the requirements are a little bit more strict. As long as I can get off it early. Can I still get off of it at 10 years. That’s the way it was last time I looked.

Larry 41:38
But I would have to see if there’s anything changed because legislature is convened either every year or every other year in some instances, but this is a topic that gets changed regularly is registration if you’d like to annotations on statutory schemes, you’ll see and some states it’s like every year or two, they make changes. And so I needed it to do current research, but but I can tell you, that reminds I’ve been thinking like the southern states like you compare Vermont to Florida, Alabama you know those those states Mississippi they’re they’re really harsh and and they’re a little a little more lenient and Vermont in terms of a little more rehabilitation driven and believing that you actually can rehabilitate yourself

Paul 42:17
that’s actually Can I

Andy 42:18
Can I throw something in here I saw this on Reddit someone just I don’t know if the person is on the registry but someone through a question that says what is so bad about the registry and I want to visit that again, what is I if there are restrictions with it, but just go and visit the police every now and then to me? Does it like given the grand scheme of things of thousand foot 2500 foot living restrictions? Keeping vehicle logs all of that other garbage? Like what is the bad part about the quote unquote, the registry?

Paul 42:47
Because we’re not in communist North North Korea? We, we, you know, we served our time we’re done. Um,

Andy 42:54
Agreed. Agreed. But as far as like the restrictions imposed Larry always use the term disabilities and restraints I’m not trying to say, Oh, we should all just accept that the registry is there, and we’re going to live with it. I’m not trying to suggest that but like the actual, like the imposition of it, because you have to go re register your car, you have to do all of those things that are very similar other than the booking process. But I just like it doesn’t seem like it’s that big of a deal.

Paul 43:17
Well, here’s kind of like the booking process because you once a year, you have to get your picture taken and they take you into booking did the same thing me in Florida, but I wanted to say,

Paul 43:30
nevermind, I’ll collect my thoughts.

Larry 43:32
if, if, if it were if it were simply a matter of putting your name on a list, and you never had to be involved with with cops again, I do not believe a civil regulatory scheme should involve law enforcement. If you listen to civil regulatory scheme, and you see guns and badges, those who just do not go together. So so you’re, you’re out from the very beginning. It’s wrong because law enforcement should be involved in civil regulations, they should only be involved. If a person doesn’t comply like a restaurant, a restaurant has to have an inspection, they have to have a person come out with their little thermometer, they put it in food, and they’re ready to do all this stuff. And that’s the civil regulatory scheme. If you do not let them into your restaurant, as required by law, they will come with the police. And they will shut you

Andy 44:24
down, for example, they’re like that.

Larry 44:26
But but it’s but it remains civil until you don’t comply. Well, if that was all the registry was if you were barely putting your name on a list, and you’re required to mail in a form to update that or go online, which people are quite capable of doing these days. I would say that the register would certainly be constitutional. And it wouldn’t be that bad. But the person who posed that question needs to be told all the things that a person is not allowed to do and that you’re required to do, and that’s what makes the registry so bad. But the mere act of a registry, they’ve created a registry for Children of Flint who have been exposed to the bad water that they did the city manager that the big great business binder was going to save money by using Flint River water rather than buying water I think from the city of Detroit because they were they were in financial straits and they were going to save a bunch of money. And they saved a bunch of money. All right, but but they say there’s a registry for those children. There’s nothing political about that. They only want to know how the kids are progressing. And if they can keep them connected to services, and to to provide amelioration for any side effects they’ve had from the from the lead exposure. That’s that’s not a punitive registry.

Paul 45:40
But what the sex offenders that pfrs are forced to deal with that is a very debilitating and punitive registry and most cases.

Andy 45:49
I have successfully poked the bear.

Paul 45:54
Question about Michigan.

Paul 45:56
Boy, what’s your question? This is a previous podcast by the way.

Larry 46:00
We’ve talked about Michigan periodically. What is your question about Michigan? Would you like to go there?

Paul 46:05
No. Um, but it depends on what the laws are like, again, it, you know, Southern Michigan isn’t. It’s probably kind of similar to the weather we’re having here in Wyoming. But, um, as long as I’m not next to a lake, um, my question is that whole thing where they declared their SORNA as unconstitutional, and then the federal judge basically slapped him and said, Look, either fix this or the registrations going away for people that had transmits word was it 2012. Um, and I fall into that category. My question is, if I seriously doubt, they’re not going to do anything, you’re probably gonna go ahead and fix that and they’re probably gonna get extensions and all this other stuff to try to figure it out. But um, will that affect out of state people? Like if I move there just so I can get off the registry, obviously, they’re probably gonna have issues But

Larry 47:02
it’s too early to know how all that’s gonna play out. But it first blush, I would say that that strong argument can be made that a person moving to Michigan would be protected by the equal protection clause, a clause would provide you the same protection as the person who was born and raised there. But Michigan is not likely to just allow those people to vanish. They’re going to try to come up with a registry that’s constitutional, and we’re gonna be having the discussion we had out of Pennsylvania. What was that? And the two episodes back where we got criticism for say it sounded like we like we were in favor the registry, correct?

Andy 47:37
Yes, yes.

Larry 47:38
They’re going to come up with a deal. The court didn’t say you can never register people. The court said in Michigan, the 2006 and 2011 enhancements have escalated what was previously interpreted by courts to be a regulatory scheme has escalated to there’s too many disabilities of restraints. That is now punishment and you can Can’t do that, but they didn’t say you can’t do this. They said barely said, You can’t do that. And if if the Michigan legislature does what I expect they’re going to do, they’re eventually going to come up with a new that, that they’re going to pass and they’re gonna say it address the courts concerns. This is our new modified registration scheme. And they’re going to peel back the onion like they did. And in Pennsylvania, for example, the proximity restrictions will be lifted for the people who have over convictions, and the frequency of reporting will be reduced like they did in Pennsylvania that would likely be affixed that they would try.

Paul 48:35
And that’s what I kind of figured they would do and it’s still going to be probably overly restrictive more so than other states.

Larry 48:44
They will, they’re likely to do more, no more than they have to probably less than what they feel like they should do, because since it’s presumed constitutional, you can pass another version. And then as happened in Pennsylvania, that version would have to be challenged because it’s presumed constitutional. We presumed the courts presumed I’m not a court, but we presume that the deliberative discussions take place and that they would not enact something. it’s unconstitutional, particularly when the law enforcement apparatus and the ag there, but it’s tell them Oh, no, this is fine. No, there’s there’s something about this. So you end up having to start all over again, because it’s presumed constitutional once that goes, goes on the books.

Paul 49:28
There’s stuff that’s been bugging me for years. I’m really glad I’m able to be here. Um, thanks for having me. One of the things Thank you for coming, is that is. So the Supreme Court has declared that the sex offender registry is constitutional, if I remember her, um, is that actually the case? Or are they is that a political maneuver?

Larry 49:51
Well, the Supreme Court didn’t say exactly the way you describe it. What the Supreme Court said was the scheme that Alaska was operating in 2003 at the time, they reviewed Their registry. They said this form of registration is constitutional because what we see here doesn’t impose any disabilities or restraints. That was the big thing that allowed that scheme to be interpreted as constitutional. They did not say you can pile on pile on and add on and pile on a pile of different restrictions. They say looking at this, this is not much different than renewing a license. And therefore, we find this is constitutional but they they find that warning shot saying because it doesn’t impose any disabilities or restraints, but people like Regina Tacoma New Mexico and all over the country Regina Schleicher, they continuously with with the support of victims advocates say add this add that add this add that I think we’ve got a Maryland Lister will tell you that someone came in and said that they that they own some property, and they had a sex offender I should say owned a property and that they were visiting it too frequently and they didn’t have to register. So they passed it if they were there like five days before that five hours and the third Did a period or littler her describe it, but they that person has to register that property. So it means if you own a property and you ever decide to use it for anything other than just a flat out rental did you have to put that property on the registry but which would be fantastic. But that’s how these things continually evolve and evolve, because because no one’s there pushing back when they’re debating this. The registry community doesn’t have a strong advocates voice and they’re not there. But the Wyoming legislature passed their first stab at AWS compliance, I believe it was oh seven or wait, it was it was before the before before 2010. There was absolutely no one in the assembly. And I know that because I was communicating with a lawmaker by email from out of state trying to affect polls discussion going on while me because they had that better system. It was risk based. And they told me the lawmaker said no one is here.

Paul 51:51
Yeah, we haven’t heard any of these issues you’re raising.

Paul 51:55
And things have changed since that time to um, one thing I noticed about the wild in Wyoming legislature and also the statutes for a lot of the different statutes we have and litigation is that it’s cookie cutter, they copy and paste it seems and then they change a few things to make it more unique to Wyoming. And I don’t know if other states do that or not. That’s it just amazes me once I started seeing stuff like,

Larry 52:23
well, that’s exactly what they do. There’s a model. People think that that that that part time legislators that have no staff and have a regular day job they take, they sit around at a candle at night, and they’re just crafting out this cranking out this language they’re not. This is language that has been vetted around the country by the National Council, state legislature by the Association of Attorney General attorneys general, Chiefs of Police Association. This is all stuff that the Federal SMART Office has put out, the sex offender management, apprehension, registration tracking, for those that don’t know what smart means out of DC. These are all things that have been handed to them. And the law enforcement apparatus says, in order for us to keep getting our burn grants, we have to pass this. And they go to law makers say, will you sponsor this for me? And the lawyer says, Oh, well, you need this for community safety. Yes. And they agree to sponsor it. And then when they have committee hearings, not a soul shows up in opposition, and they they rubber stamp this stuff, because there’s not one there.

Paul 53:23
On another note, Wyoming is the least populated state. I think we’re number 50. Um, and there is as a ratio, I think we really don’t have that many sex offenders within the state. But that’s just because of our popular not the ratio, but that’s just because our population is so small, so it’s hard to get a group together to actually fight. That would be

Larry 53:48
that would be true and then you got to get out where’s the capital is that Oh, it isn’t shine. I was thinking that Oh, there was a there were some people that live on the western part. They want to move it but it’s a giant okay.

Andy 54:01
But then Wouldn’t it also be easier? I mean, it seems like you know, if you brought one person to the legislature in California, that’s gotta be like just a drop in the bucket. But it seems like if you brought one person to Wyoming, like, I mean, you have half the population of Wyoming, if you brought one person to the legislature,

Larry 54:19
it would be very persuasive in a small state like that. People don’t realize that. When I went to Nebraska A few years ago, back about 10 years ago, now, they’re places wide open just like ours, no security, you just walk into the building, because if you own it, and you walk around to the legislators, offices, and if they’re if they’re not in session on the floor, if they’re not in committee, they’re they’re ready to talk to you. I had I had sitters in Nebraska, oh, you’re here from New Mexico. What do you want to talk to us about, you know, it’s like they were ready to be a celebrity. And, and so in Cheyenne, Wyoming with a population of less than 600,000. I would dare say that there’s not large crowds, and you’d probably have relatively easy access, if you could make the journey to the Capitol and they’re only in session like that. 15 days or one year, and like 30 days there have very short sessions. So they’re not they’re not they’re very long so they have to move very quickly.

Paul 55:07
Well, I just go ahead and go, sorry. Um, and so I’ve seen a lot, it’s a bad habit of mine. So anyways, um, we I think we do have pretty easy access to our, our elected officials within the state. Um, I can I am enrolled at the local college and that is on the registry, which means basically, I’m allowed to go there, um, because of the way the statutes read and all this but so, um, he has an office are my local basically my local senator has an office at the college which is like 10 minutes away, and I’ve done it before I just walked into his office and talked to him. Um, so we I mean, there is easy access to the politicians basically was he would take it or not, I seriously doubt they would because to me anytime you want to Lesson. A, I look at it from a political point of view, if you want to lesson something within as for instance, like the registry, you want to lessen it, um, people are gonna use that to try to vote you out of office.

Larry 56:15
That is correct. very astute observation.

Paul 56:19
So that’s why I think it’s so slow to change to make it better for or less worse for us better for us, um, is because it’s a political

Paul 56:31
it’s a political night minefield, it’s easy to suicide, it’s a suicide run.

Paul 56:35
It’s easy to increase the regulations, it’s easier to increase the regulations than it is to take them away.

Larry 56:43
Correct.

Paul 56:45
Also, this is something else to discuss. So that decision they made with the with Alaska, the Supreme Court, um, it seems like they use that decision to decide on other matters like that decision separately. precedence for basically people saying that the constant the sex offender registry is constitutional. Is it just me seeing something that’s not there? Is that what people are doing? titles? Absolutely. It is

Larry 57:13
precedent. It’s binding precedent is so it did. But it didn’t say that any form of registration, you want to impose this constitutional. It said, as we look at the Alaska scheme, the scheme that we’re examining this scheme is constitutional, then it’s up to the attorneys who are challenging registration around the country to distinguish when you’re when you’re when you are arguing case and precedent, is what’s guiding you. If you’re, if you’re if you want to win, and precedents on your favor, you have to distinguish what you’re arguing and why it’s different. And so many of our challenges go wrong, because they’re brought in the case in in in a criminal case, which doesn’t allow the evidentiary record to be fully developed in terms of expert testimony in terms of Things that you need to do. Someone has no money, and they go to the public defender for their conviction. And then they go back and say, Well, this registry is really awful. And the public defender, oh, well, I’ll file a motion say it’s unconstitutional. And we end up we end up with all these bad decisions because they weren’t properly brought the correct way to bring a challenge to the registry is to file a petition for declaratory judgment and have gobs of money to put the case together and distinguish for the record before it goes up on pillar view, because the trial judge is going to find the registers constitutional because the trial judge has to go by the precedent. So all the precedents in the states practically there’s been previous state Supreme Court decisions that have said, our registry is civil regulatory. And then there may have been dozens of amendments that have happened since that like in our case, last time, our appellate court in New Mexico looked at registration in a global fashion was in 2003. In the case of state versus truck, Tina’s well, much has changed. Since 2003, we had a major overhaul in 2005, imposed a lot longer period of registration, more intense reporting requirements. And it changed a lot. But since then there hasn’t been any presidential decision. So improperly developed cases, there was one case that I helped as an expert witness where a person filed it within the criminal case. So so the precedent is binding unless you do a good job, distinguishing why this is different than Alaska. You don’t just say, Well, I feel it’s unconstitutional, you prove that it’s unconstitutional. And here’s why. And you expect to go up on appeal you expect to be like in Michigan, this took effect in 2012. And I believe it was until late 2017 before the case was finally decided in those vs. Snyder, so it was a five year journey.

Paul 59:46
And they still didn’t do anything back and look, you didn’t do anything, do something,

Paul 59:51
and

Larry 59:51
they’re gonna still go, they’re gonna keep delaying it delaying and then they’re gonna pitch we’ll do the minimum necessary to preserve the registry. And then I’ll have people writing The emails to me saying bye bye that way because that’s just the reality of the situation. I don’t make the rules. I’m just telling you what politicians are likely to do because that’s what the public demands.

Paul 1:00:09
Politicians agenda is to get reelected. That’s correct.

Paul 1:00:14
Kind of. I mean, I see why they’re doing it, I just disagree with it. Um, but again, that’s just the way it is. Um, I want to thank you for your time and Thanks for answering my questions. It looks like I’m gonna be moving to Vermont, I’m gonna look closer into that.

Paul 1:00:30
And do some more research and make some phone calls.

Larry 1:00:34
As people don’t make phone calls to less than you the way you really hurt a state is you they have a they keep a tally list of how many people inquire about what it really relocate there. And all you do is cause the tally to grow larger and larger, larger of people who are inquiring about our Lex laws and say they’re going to move here. You act as if when you move to another state that you’ve got brought there by circumstances totally beyond your control and you have no idea What the registry is like, but it really hurts the cause when you go and sell a lot like, what can you tell me about your registry? Oh, would you like to have some out of staters come here, I meant I just kind of bad around here. Your walls don’t look so bad. That really is detrimental to the cause.

Paul 1:01:15
Um, good question about the out of state thing. I’m sorry to keep going with this. Um, my original conviction was in Montana. When I got out of prison. I went to a halfway house in Wyoming because it was the closest one that would accept sex offenders. They didn’t have any at that time that would accept sex offenders in the state of Montana. So I transferred or I didn’t transfer. I did my halfway house time here in Wyoming and I didn’t have any familial collect. Sorry, I didn’t have any family here. I didn’t have any connections. I didn’t have any support. Um, I built that while I was in the halfway house. I built a good support system. And I was able to get my my location change from Montana, to Wyoming through the probation office.

Larry 1:01:59
Well, buddies Do you have a federal conviction, which changes all that damage? Yes.

Paul 1:02:05
So it doesn’t matter where my original conviction was, in terms of what, in terms of changing states to like Vermont, for instance?

Larry 1:02:14
Well, it would depend on again for how Vermont, how they treat out of state offenders, they, they done four convictions. Each state has some provision in their state statutory scheme, how they deal with out of state offenders. Sometimes they apply equivalency test, sometimes they say that you have to register for the duration of the state of conviction, you don’t have the state of conviction, you have a federal conviction. So so we would have to look at the robot law and find out what how how it would apply to you. And but but calling calling the registration office is really a bad thing. And I want to emphasize that people are tempted to do that all the time. First of all, they don’t know and second of all, they do not want you to come there. Think about it. If you’re if you’re in state of state, would you want to invite as many people as you possibly could that have sex offense convictions, knowing that there’s gonna be some level of recidivism, whether it’s 3% 2% 4% or 8%? It doesn’t matter. If you invite 100 people, you’re gonna have some level of sex offenses that occur there. nobody in their right mind is gonna say, Oh, well, you kind of it kind of bad in Louisiana. Of course, we’d like to have you here. They’re not going to do that. And that’s Paul,

Andy 1:03:27
thank you so much. Appreciate you coming on kind of impromptu after we had the baseline discussion.

Paul 1:03:33
I really appreciate I just sent that email and y’all responded really quickly. Well, I would greatly

Larry 1:03:39
appreciate it was invite

Andy 1:03:40
Larry liked it.

Larry 1:03:41
I liked it. That’s what it was. It was a good one.

Paul 1:03:45
Thank you very much, and thanks for thanks for all your expertise.

Andy 1:03:49
Our pleasure. Thank you so much. Ready to be a part of registry matters. Get links at registry matters.co. If you need to be discreet, about It, contact them by email registry matters cast@gmail.com you can call or text or ransom message to 7472 to 74477. Want to support registry matters on a monthly basis, head to patreon.com slash registry matters. Not ready to become a patron, give a five star review at Apple podcasts or Stitcher or tell your buddies at your treatment class about the podcast. We want to send out a big heartfelt support for those on the registry. Keep fighting without you, we can’t succeed. You make it possible. Joining us now Larry is Ethan from Illinois who I’m going to do the best I can at introducing this. It has questions about federal supremacy over what the states do. And I’m going to sit back and let you guys go at it because this is way beyond my paygrade. But welcome Ethan. Thank you much for joining us.

Ethan 1:05:01
Thank you for having me on here.

Larry 1:05:03
All right, Eve Eve beefin. We received an email from you back in back in July, asking some questions about the registry and about why the federal requirements are different than the state requirements. And I thought, since it’s a very commonly asked question that we could possibly dig into a little bit and see if we can be helpful to a whole lot of people out there listening rather than just talking to you individually off the air, which I’m always willing to do, but but we have a chance to enlighten others.

Ethan 1:05:36
Well, sure, this mostly started from the the idea of Illinois I’m required for lifetime registration. And so I always wondered if there was a case to be made in terms of federal supremacy, because the actual federal SORNA statute classifies me as a tier two and states by full registration period as 25 years.

Larry 1:06:00
And that is a really, really fantastic question. And the the the answer is, in my opinion, there is no simple Supremacy Clause argument because there is no federal registry. So in the absence of a federal registry, the Federal registry could not be Supreme. And and so what you have in the case of federal SORNA, is you have a list of recommendations to the states that say with within this framework, if you do at least this minimal level of of compliance, your state will be deemed substantial compliance, so you don’t jeopardize your burn justice, crime assistance funds. But as we’ll talk about later, in another segment of the podcast, you can go beyond that. And that’s just fine, because you’ve met the minimum. So in terms of Can Can you say that would be a tier two under federal federal law, I’m assuming that you’ve analyzed it correctly, because you’re an Intel A guy from conversations I’ve had. But that being the case, that would be a 25 year minimum public obligation, but it’s not a maximum. It’s merely a it’s merely a floor that the state would have to have to have for that offense to be classified correctly under a web standards.

Ethan 1:07:17
Make sense? So even though the federal law mentions the word requirement, there, they’re talking about requiring it the minimum level but not the maximum.

Larry 1:07:26
That is correct in most everything that they’re talking about. These are requirements on the state’s law jurisdiction. So it’s not just states or jurisdictions. So when you hear requirements for your state, when you’re looking at the ball shot in the sauna, coupled at a ball shot, you’re looking at requirements on the jurisdictions to have a substantially compliant registration program. There’s very little that applies to the offender. And I bring up the part that’s most important to the offender and that’s the traveling across jurisdictional boundaries, and not presenting yourself for registering That’s the key, the biggie of all ones that that that’s in there that that people when you move from one jurisdiction to the other, or if you’re or if you’re physically present in some cases too long in one jurisdiction, you have a federal duty to present yourself to that jurisdiction, but all these things in terms of what’s required, these are requirements on the state to be substantially compliant.

Ethan 1:08:24
Right. I actually have some experience with that I live close enough to the Missouri border that I work in Missouri. And so I get to deal with both states registration systems. I’m actually required to register more often in Missouri even though I don’t live there than I am in Illinois.

Larry 1:08:42
And that’s a good thing to point out for the for the listeners, because in in the case of the Adam Walsh Act, you can have an obligation to register in multiple jurisdictions, because it defines an offender is anyone who is not only living or residing at a state but if you also are attending school or are employed You can have the opportunity to do both depending on geographically where you are. And that’s and that may be your situation where you’re where you have a duty that’s triggered in Missouri, but yet you don’t live there. And then Missouri’s requirements are what’s imposed upon you different than Illinois. And you can’t go to Missouri and say, Well, I don’t really like this at Illinois, I’ll have to do that. They said, well, you’ll simply stay out of our borders, and you won’t have to do any of that stuff here.

Ethan 1:09:24
Here’s an interesting question. For my situation. Let’s say that Illinois didn’t require the lifetime registration in my case, but only required me to be on for 10 years, I would no longer be required to register Illinois where I reside, but I would still be working in Missouri. So if you had any experience with how that would work in terms of being registered in Missouri for the for the job,

Larry 1:09:51
you would, you would have an obligation, you know, a person would have an obligation in Missouri, if they’re SORNA. Their version of sorta does different And your conviction as a registered offense, many of the offense you committed was equivalent. Or, in some cases, just simply the fact that you have a sex offense. If they have a duty to register Missouri, they could care less about what happened in Illinois, the 10 years went by, you’re still working in Missouri, you would still have to register there because their law controls.

Ethan 1:10:21
Right. So it doesn’t, it isn’t tied exclusively to where you reside. It’s any any laws that cover any aspect of what you’re doing, basically,

Larry 1:10:30
if you will, I think more succinctly to put it would be any, any criminal conduct that fits within the statutory definition of a sex offender in a particular jurisdiction. And if Missouri has a law that covers your particular offense and the zone of time that that offense occurred, then regardless of what whether Illinois had discharged you from obligation, you would still have to register, then that brings back when I say time and time on the podcast, had you been free from all registration in Illinois. Before you ever set foot in Missouri, you wouldn’t be going there as a handed off offender, you so they wouldn’t know there without the bat magic or knowledge. But the minute you crossed the Missouri border that you had had, that you were out of conviction in the past, but they could easily discover you by someone ratting you out that did no one says, you know, he’s working at such and such a place. Or they could do a routine traffic stop and decide that based on the circumstances, they’re going to do a criminal history, they could discover the sex of it. But without a handoff. If you were going to a new status as an unregistered person, the chances are real good that all you would get would be a notice of a duty to register if they were to run your background. If you’ve been properly discharged in state a state B’s gonna say well, that’s not binding on us and we’re going to notify you have to register. And if you don’t register, you’re you’re going to be prosecuted. I’ve got the challenge out asking for someone to show me that they’ve been discharged from registration by some mechanism and one state a and that they’ve been inserted They be and they were prosecuted without being given notice. Now I’m open to having someone demonstrate that to me. But so far no one has been able to demonstrate that that’s been the case that I continue to believe you would get a notice of a duty to register Missouri.

Ethan 1:12:13
Right with another question that I brought up in the email had to do with one the clock basically started on the 25 year issue. And one of the things in SORNA mentions that your clock starts when you’re no longer in custody. And so I had a question of whether supervised release in the federal sense or state parole or probation would count as still being in custody.

Ethan 1:12:39
That’s a really great question and the answer is yes and no, thanks.

Larry 1:12:44
Sir. The answer is yes. Unless the state says no, it does. Some states particularly say that that the registration term shall be computed from release from supervision requirements. I think Brenda state may say that or did at one time And some states, like my state, it would count from the time you initially registered without any credit for for any registration at a previous jurisdiction. So the answer is it would be fact specific to what that state gives you credit for. But as a general rule, I think more states give you they recognize your period of registration from when they initially registered now, as I perused did some quick perusing before recording, some states give you timeout for any period you’re in custody, we don’t do that in my state. If you’re accustomed makes no difference once you initially registered theoretically, you could spend the entire 25 years or whatever your period it was my state we don’t have a 25 year but you could spend your entire 10 years and custody and and with the only thing that department public safety would argue that would possibly save them and our state. It says you shall complete the tenure registrants have to complete an annual renewal. And they would say that since you didn’t report him for your annual renewal that that year doesn’t count, but there’s no No particular time out. There’s no tolling but some state statutes do toll. But if you don’t have a tolling provision, and it doesn’t specifically say that post relief from supervision, then you would get credit for that 25 years. So that’s the answer as best I can give it with the information I have.

Ethan 1:14:18
Sounds good. Those were the two primary questions I had. I know we had discussed a couple of other things that were more specific to my situation. But I didn’t know if you wanted to get into those or just stick to the general topics. I don’t,

Larry 1:14:30
I don’t mind as long as we don’t have to delve into it to the point where I would be giving legal advice and also took your comfort level how much you want to talk about, about your personal situation. But as long as I don’t get myself in trouble, I don’t mind.

Ethan 1:14:43
Well, one of the things that I had mentioned, I had brought up that rule and you about the being classified as a sexual predator if you move to Illinois, and I found the statute that covers that. So In Illinois after January 1 of 2012, if a person moved to Illinois on or after that day, they will be considered a sexual predator with lifetime registration. If that person was required to register in another state, he even if they would have been considered under the tenure planning Illinois.

Larry 1:15:22
So any any conviction that relocates Illinois after 2012 as a sexual predator, that’s what the statute

Ethan 1:15:29
says.

Larry 1:15:32
I’d like to take a look at that.

Ethan 1:15:35
I can give you the public act number and everything.

Larry 1:15:39
Yeah. Why don’t you shoot that to us? So Well, we’ll, we’ll circle back on this on the following podcast. That’s that’s an interesting thing that I’ve never heard of.

Ethan 1:15:48
Yeah, and I, I had mentioned that because I I was classified that way because my original conviction was in Missouri. And then when I was released from the federal system, I ended up in Illinois, which is where my family is. Currently,

Larry 1:16:02
what do you have? You have a federal conviction, right?

Ethan 1:16:05
Correct. Yeah, my conviction was in the federal the state dropped their case and passed me off to the federal system.

Larry 1:16:12
So yeah, I’ll take a look at that. And we can we can circle back

Andy 1:16:17
again, but he is convicted of and I know this is like bullshit. But if someone is convicted of urinating in public, and they end up on the registry and they move there, they’re considered a violent predator.

Ethan 1:16:29
It says what the actual Act says that after that date, a person moves to Illinois on or after the effective date, the person is considered a sexual predator with lifetime registration. If the person is required to register in another state due to a conviction or other action of any court. patient to register as a sex offender which is Illinois 10 year branch, sexual predator or substantially similar status under the laws of a state okay.

Larry 1:17:00
Sounds Sounds like sounds like you made obscene phone calls to a minor in Georgia, you’d be a sexual predator.

Andy 1:17:07
There. That’s absolutely insane. Now see, as you say, Larry, now that’s funny.

Larry 1:17:14
Well, I have to admit that is fun. It’s diabolical.

Andy 1:17:16
Jesus.

Ethan 1:17:21
Well, no, he also has some other fun ones. They, one of the issues I had when I was initially being released from federal custody, was trying to find a place to live so that they could transfer me from Missouri to Illinois. My original plan was to stay with my father. But he lives in an apartment complex, which has a bike path going nearby. And so that was excluded. Because in Illinois, they include bike paths as public parks. And so I was I was fortunate that I had a friend who had a relative who was a landlord willing to To me and so that we work that out but I was initially excluded from my plan to move to Illinois because there was a bike path too close to my father’s residence that is

Ethan 1:18:09
unbelievable.

Larry 1:18:11
Now that is I thought I had heard it all and always have I have this thing where I call up my colleagues and I say I have heard at all now I’ve got a call my colleagues after this podcast and say I have heard it all now.

Andy 1:18:24
We’ve been talking about Illinois for some time though because they had I was really pretty tyrannical scheme going on up there.

Larry 1:18:34
Yeah, that’s that’s what’s keeping Weinberg. Adele busy, Markham, they’ll have busy

Ethan 1:18:42
despite some of the nonsensical stuff that I have to deal with over here I’ve actually I consider myself fortunate in my situation. In some ways, I have a an officer who doesn’t seem to be out to get me and generally the local police Leave me alone. So in that sense It’s not too tyrannical, but some of the rules here are pretty out there.

Larry 1:19:08
So, so you know, Ethan, this is really helpful because we’re trying to get more of this podcast into the prison institutions where they can’t listen to it. And this type of discussion is going to be very interesting to the people who want to know what is registration. Like we get that question all the time at dorsal, what do I have to do? And I said, we have to do what they tell you. And of course, they want a little more specific information about what all the things that that might tell them. And this type of interaction and exchange will help people understand what it is they’re going to be told to do and what they’re facing in terms of barriers and the bike path I have not heard of yet.

Ethan 1:19:42
Yeah, I know the noi its parks, which is it just any Park not just a park that has a playground like it is in Missouri. They also include forest preserves bike paths, trails or conservation areas under state or local jurisdiction.

Larry 1:20:00
Well, we have an extensive bike trail network in Albuquerque. So that would knock out a whole lot of territory here because I mean, we’ve got 780 90 miles a bypass within within the within metro area.

Ethan 1:20:13
I’m sure that was the intent in Illinois. Also, my my father happens to live near one of the college campuses. And that’s why he has bike paths all over the place near his house. So

Larry 1:20:26
too much, so I’ve heard it all.

Ethan 1:20:31
Right. Well, those were really my questions. I wasn’t sure if you had any for me, or

Ethan 1:20:37
Oh, wait, we may have.

Larry 1:20:39
We may have you back again, all this after after you sent me the the statute. Let me look at the statute about I just can’t believe that they could make your predator just because you have an offense to another state. I’ve got a I’ve got to see that and analyze that.

Ethan 1:20:55
Oh, yeah. I’ll be happy to send that email as soon as I get off here with you guys. And I’d be happy to Come on again and talk about it if you want.

Larry 1:21:01
I appreciate that. I don’t know, I’m still

Andy 1:21:04
really mostly dumbfounded by if you have felony jaywalking, and that’s listed as a sexual offense somewhere and you move to Illinois and now you’re a predator.

Larry 1:21:15
Well, the best analogy, I’ve seen circles to moderate Georgia.

Andy 1:21:19
That’s crazy. I love you so very much for taking the time to be with us tonight. And maybe we’ll hear from you soon on the podcast.

Ethan 1:21:31
Thanks. That’s great. Thanks for having me on again.

Andy 1:21:35
Larry, it is I guess we’re going to move on to some other state Indiana that we’re we’re going

Larry 1:21:41
yeah, this one shouldn’t take long. This one. This one’s just funny.

Andy 1:21:46
Oh, we’re back to funny so is this like being on the land for 47 years and now you’re 77 years old, like that kind of funny.

Larry 1:21:53
It’s even a better funny.

Andy 1:21:55
So that’s no fun. All right. Tell me what’s going on in Indiana.

Larry 1:21:57
Well, this is sort of pellet level decision for a person That the

Ethan 1:22:01
suit, I’ve had the

Larry 1:22:03
county name at the tip of mine. Anyway, make sure I’ve got the right case here. Hope you can hope you can cut this out of here.

Andy 1:22:14
There’s a video going on it makes it really hard to cut anything out.

Larry 1:22:17
Well, I don’t tell me your problems just find a solution. But this is this is where where the person person boots with out of state convictions and the state of Indiana decided that he was a sexually violent predator. But they did not follow any process whatsoever. They just took a look at the fact that he had two convictions from Florida. And by the definition of the statute, he did not qualify as a sexually violent predator. Those those offenses whatever was consensual which doesn’t does doesn’t didn’t qualify under Indiana law, but they are pretty Rarely notified him the the share of vendor burrel. I’ve never heard of that. But a way that the sheriff’s department notified him that he was that he was a sexually violent predator. And he was not abused. And he challenged that. And he won because of the extra extra obligations that are imposed on a person who who is a sexual predator, and

Andy 1:23:28
something like registering every three months or worse, silliness like that.

Larry 1:23:32
Yes. And but the thing, the thing is, this is scary, but that they had a process. They were supposed to notify him that they intended to change the information about him and he hadn’t, he would have had an opportunity to appeal. But he did. So then the state comes in and says, Well, he didn’t exhaust his administrative remedy. Well, of course he didn’t because they didn’t follow the administrative process. To start with, they didn’t do that. They didn’t do administratively what they were supposed to do. So the court, the court for Gave him for not exhausting the administrative process to challenge it because they didn’t follow the administrative process to begin with. And they said sorry, he doesn’t meet the definition of a sexually violent predator. You guys had been at this. So people

Andy 1:24:13
like what we were talking about in Illinois, if you just show up and you have, you know, felony urinating in public, then you’re a violent predator like by what means this this sounds similar to that.

Larry 1:24:23
It is except that he actually had two offenses. Yeah, in Florida. I gotcha. But but he still didn’t qualify. The one he put his hands in size inside a Tim pants have a 10 or 11 year old which ended fondling but apparently no penetration and the other one he had consensual romance, but it was it was with someone close to his age. And, and he he did not fit the criteria. They didn’t follow the process. And they just said, you don’t like it too bad. You’re a predator. And he said, No, sir, I’m not. And he won. And so kudos to him. Kudos to Spencer

Andy 1:24:58
and appellate level. is still within the state. So then it would go to the state Supreme Court next.

Larry 1:25:04
If the if the state wants it to go, they could ask, the higher the top court review. I don’t know why they would this is black letter law that they got resoundingly slapped by the Court of Appeals. I don’t know why they would because there’s nothing to appeal. You guys blew it. Let go of it. You screwed up. You didn’t follow process. Hey, solder predator, you’d like him to be he isn’t. Move on. But you never know what these people are going to do.

Andy 1:25:32
And kick rocks and they have, you know, effectively unlimited budgets, and maybe it’ll make them happy and sleep better at night that they they’re not going to let one escape the system dammit.

Larry 1:25:41
Nope. Not gonna do it.

Andy 1:25:46
I don’t think we have any other content other than doing the thank yous and the goodbyes and all that stuff. Is there anything we’ve missed?

Larry 1:25:52
Well, we have we have gobs of Thank you so that we get like 50 patrons this week. We

Andy 1:25:57
did. It’s pretty close to that. But first, let me let me throw this out. out there. So Sunday morning I finished editing the podcast pretty early and super patron Mike had said, Hey man, I’m on my way to church and just got the notification at the RM podcast and people say there’s no God, I beg to differ Good things come to those who sign up on Patreon. Yes, if you’re a patron, you would get the podcast when I finish editing it on Sunday morning usually. So I just wanted to share that because it was kind of funny.

Larry 1:26:22
So well, thank you super Mike. Super patriot Mike.

Andy 1:26:27
We got kind of like an old new patron coming back, Patti, she she had to update her character I just wanted to like pointed out cuz she then sent me a personal note saying, Hey, I love the podcast and my credit card is expired. Anyway, welcome back, Patti. We we got to do patron Deborah, thank you so very much. She I guess she wants to get a transcription sent.

Larry 1:26:47
And she got it. We sent out a batch of transcripts Friday. And and her loved one was on the list. And again, this is good opportunity to promote that if you are supporting the podcast. At 15 a month or higher, we will send the transcript to a person of your choice, you just have to let us know we don’t have a fancy form when you sign up on Patreon. We don’t have, we don’t have any way to capture that. So you have to email us and say I’m one who’s supporting you have that level higher, and I would like to receive it, and I will make it happen. So we sent out I think it’s 20 or 21. Yesterday, some more freebies because I’m trying to promote the concept and some are people that have have have have met the requirements and requested it.

Andy 1:27:36
And then of course, we just were talking to Ethan and that was impromptu. And so I had this slated here at the end, but holy poop, Ethan, your Bs, thank you and I put in there turtles all the way down. So anybody that’s into like computer coding will get that reference. But for the rest of you lay people go figure it out.

Larry 1:27:53
So I’ll do my best to figure it out. And I’ll let you know next week.

Andy 1:27:56
Yeah, there’s your homework assignment there.

Larry 1:27:59
Well, and then I have a Congratulations to make to someone. Someone figured out who I am with the picture. They they figured that out. And I want to award a prize to that person because I gave clues but I didn’t expect anybody to figure it out. I had said, the Lincoln administration so by whatever method they figured it out, they figured out that that that was a Secretary of War Edwin Stan. Now I’m going to give you another challenge. The person that figure it out, of course, you’re you’re in the running, figure out some unique aspect of Stan’s career that would appeal to me because I said he was my favorite official in the Lincoln administration. So figure out what it is about him and there were many things there were several things I liked about Stan but tell me what you think attracted me to his service to the United States.

Andy 1:28:52
You want me to clue you in on something that is going to possibly upset you?

Larry 1:28:57
What’s that?

Andy 1:28:58
We have said on the show. who that is?

Larry 1:29:01
Well, I know we have about okay.

Andy 1:29:03
Okay, so it has been a listener for any level of regularity would have heard and seen the picture and because I’ve been doing the thing, the video thing for two or three months,

Larry 1:29:12
but if they’ve listened to every single episode from beginning to end, and I don’t think we’ve got patrons who do that, what? What regularity?

Andy 1:29:19
Oh, no see, I beg to differ. We have people that have listened to episode one and it’s stuck with us ever. So we have

Larry 1:29:23
we have people have listened to all of them, but not every single word of all of them. And not all of our listeners have. But But yeah, so figure out by by personality and what you’ve heard, what I would be attracted to Stan about. He was a very, very unique individual in terms of his career.

Andy 1:29:39
Can I win or am I excluded?

Larry 1:29:43
And I’ll tell you, you

Andy 1:29:44
always hear in prize competitions like family members can apply whatever if you work for the station, whatever. He

Larry 1:29:50
he would have been seated on the US Supreme Court, but he wasn’t he died after his nomination, but he had a splendid career. So he was nominated though. Yeah, he was nominated but he was he did not live long enough, he died relatively young, I think like 58 or 59. But he would have been a Supreme Court justice. So tell me, tell me, tell me about Stan, what did he do that was unique?

Andy 1:30:11
Excellent. Well, we record the show live on Saturday nights. And if you are a patron, you can come listen to it. Otherwise, you should subscribe to the show on all of your podcast apps, you can find it anywhere you find it on your smart speaker. So if you just want to like speak into the ether, a friend of mines mom listens to the show there because she is very visually impaired. And she she invokes the Google thing in the house, which actually like we haven’t had Charles join us for a long time. But for someone that is visually impaired, having one of those smart speakers is probably like one of the best inventions to just be able to say hey, listen to the podcast and it starts playing it for you be a great thing. And so anywho Generally, the the people can have it for the for the morning commute. Most people are probably commuting from their bedroom into their office at this point. So it’s a long commute and it’s very treacherous at this point. But Larry, where can people find the podcast?

Larry 1:31:04
You will go to registry matters dot c Oh,

Andy 1:31:09
fantastic we didn’t get any voicemail this week Larry but where would people phone in and the voicemail

Larry 1:31:14
that would be 747-227-4477 if we don’t get any this coming week we will disconnect the hotline.

Andy 1:31:25
And if you would so choose, you can record a higher quality one by just using like your phone and record an mp3 and then send us the mp3 over email or something that would work too and it would sound way better than the telephone. The telephone sounds like crap. Larry, please tell me that you agree that the telephone sounds like crap.

Larry 1:31:41
Well, having studied the comparison, I would say that I would agree with you that the quality is less than than stellar.

Andy 1:31:48
It is it is it is and where can they email us?

Larry 1:31:52
That’d be registry matters cast@gmail.com.

Andy 1:31:57
And of course, we love all of our listeners and we love all over again. patrons, especially our patrons, and where do they go to sign up on Patreon for as little as $100 a month and you say,

Larry 1:32:07
it’ll be 1200 until the until the pandemic so. So, so that is patreon.com slash registry matters. And we need to spell that pa t ar e o m.com antastic.

Andy 1:32:22
You can also find us on YouTube, it gets released there And where else you could also follow us on Twitter. I don’t do a whole lot there. But sometimes I throw some stuff up there. And I think that’s all we got, Larry.

Larry 1:32:36
So I think it is now we’re gonna roll into a tour to a political dialogue and the patron only.

Andy 1:32:44
Yep. Thanks, guys. Have a great night. Talk to you soon there. Good night.

Ethan 1:32:49
You’ve been listening to F YP


Transcript of RM138: SORNA Explained

Listen to RM138: SORNA Explained

Andy 00:00
Registry Matters is an independent production. The opinions and ideas here are that of the host and do not reflect the opinions of any other organization. If you have a problem with these thoughts, fyp. Recording live from FYP Studios, east and west transmitting across the internet. This is Episode 138 of Registry Matters. I still can’t believe that we’re at 138 Larry. That’s really kind of mind boggling to me.

Larry 00:25
That is really phenomenal that we’ve lasted this long because what’s the stats on podcasts? How long do they last?

Andy 00:32
Most make it to about six or seven episodes and then they fall off the planet.

Larry 00:37
So, we have made it.

Andy 00:39
Larry, I have amazing news, hockey playoffs started today. I’m so excited you have no idea.

Larry 00:46
A hockey?

Andy 00:47
yeah like the NHL the playoffs that died when you know cuz the playoffs would have started April or so probably May is when they would have actually like started and you know, there’s this little human malware thing going on called COVID. So everything’s shut down.

Larry 01:04
I think I vaguely remember that. Yeah. There was a hockey season going and the NBA.

Andy 01:08
There was a hockey season going and then it just stopped.

Larry 01:13
No, there was an NBA season.

Andy 01:15
Yeah. And then so the the baseball thing started back up and then like everyone started testing positive, let me just to fill in on how they’re doing it. They have quarantined the players for a couple weeks in hotels. And they’ve rented out the Toronto stadium and they’re just like, there’s nobody interacting with anybody other than them playing the game there and the stands are empty. They have covers over the whole stadium. It’s It’s impressive on how they’re doing it to keep everybody isolated and staying away from each other given the grand scheme of things, so I’m excited.

Larry 01:49
Alright, for those who who live in regions of the country where there are there are no hockey teams that is not a significant part of, of everyday life, which when The Atlanta Flames were an expansion NHL team in 1973. All of us Atlantans had no idea a thing about hockey. Yes. And we’d have we had to have it spoon fed to us so we would understand the rules. So, so tell people, when you hear that of the call of icing the puck, what has the player done when they’re called for icing?

Andy 02:19
They have sent the puck too far down the arena the rink to get by the goalie without somebody being there. It’s kind of sort of similar to offsides. But that’s what it is. They’ve sent the puck across to two lines too far. And then they just drop the play dead. Because you can’t you can’t camp you can’t like put a player down there by the goal and shoot a puck and then just have them tap it in. So they kind of like sort of like move things forward. So icing is somebody shooting the puck too far. And then they call the playback and they start over.

Larry 02:50
So for those of you who weren’t alive in ‘73, there was the New York Islanders and the Atlanta flames as expansion teams and the Atlanta flames were an amazing expansion team that actually they want hockey games as an expansion team, and we had the best play by play announcer that ever lived. (Andy: Ever? Ever. Jigs, McDonald

Andy 03:12
Jigs McDonald, you have an unbelievable amount of knowledge about things that are have no relevancy to anything.

Larry 03:19
Well, I think everybody that listened to follow the flames would remember Jake’s McDonald

Andy 03:23
Yes, I’m sure that they would. I don’t remember growing up in the DC area, I certainly do not remember any of the announcers that did the capitals.

Larry 03:32
Well, he was so amazing in terms of his ability to explain it to those in the south, he recognized he was in a part of the country had never experienced hockey. And rather than being snarky, he was very, very kind to us Southern Hicks and explained what was going on. And you could you could actually follow the action. If you’re listening to a radio Jigs, was so good you could actually follow that’s hard. (Andy: It is.) It is if you could, if you could, if you can call hockey and identify play by play as quickly as things unfold.

Andy 04:03
I understand Yeah, and contrary to popular belief, it’s not like they they spun up a team and everybody from Atlanta or Georgia or the region started playing, you know, were feeding into the team. Nobody in hockey is practically from the United States to begin with. You’ll see, you’ll see players names and the they write it across the back and it’s some name from you know, like, you know, a Russian name and it spans like from elbow to elbow. It’s pretty funny.

Larry 04:30
So I have a lot of them come come from Canada, but Okay, let’s move it.

Andy 04:33
Yeah, we should. Let’s start off with some feedback from our previous episode, where we got some emails, and I’m going to start something moving and I don’t remember what the shortcut key is. Start. So that screen will move around. I got a new camera Larry. Did you see my new camera?

Larry 04:53
I heard about it, but I didn’t see it.

Andy 04:57
Alright, well, it does. Um, but we got a we got an email. A message from someone that was talking about wanted to go back and discuss the interstate transfer stuff that we did. And he wants to know, if an offender is not allowed to contact the icots office, then what are the options for them If the state refuses to submit the application? the same person wants to know how the state of Florida can force longer registration than that required by the state of conviction? Can you can you expand on that and like, turn it into something understandable?

Larry 05:29
Well, it was actually a little more snarkily written, but I appreciated it because it really it really helped to illuminate that we didn’t accomplish fully the objective of that of that segment. Since since registration, let’s take the second part first, since registration is a civil regulatory scheme. The way Florida can do that is because their civil regulatory scheme is different than the previous state. And when you take your car, always go back to this car. When you take your car from Georgia, to New Jersey, whatever route requirements you had to register your car in Georgia no longer apply. Georgia will not assess any fees, and New Jersey will not honor any deal that Georgia may have cut you because of your age, because of the age of the vehicle. Some states give veterans exceptions where you don’t have to pay for registration. Our state is one of them. All that does not follow you. All of that doesn’t follow you because it’s a civil regulatory scheme. So how Florida can do that is they have a more strict regulatory scheme than the previous state. So that second part is relatively easy. The first part about I bought the interstate compact is more difficult because if you’re languishing either in the community and wanting to move to another state, or you’re languish in prison and you don’t know where you’re gonna go, and the state refuses to submit it, I don’t have an answer of what you can do, because the state has the prerogative to not let you transfer unless you fall into one of the mandatory categories, which, which is a very limited number of people where if you were, if you’re in the military and you got orders, and of course, most people in the military, when they’re when they have conviction, they generally are discharged. But if you had some conviction in the military, and you received orders to report to a new base location, they would have to allow, that’s a mandatory transfer case. But there are not that many mandatory transfer case it is a privilege to be allowed to serve your sentence in another state. If the state where you were convicted, chooses not to grant tthat privilege to you, then you’re mostly stuck.

Andy 07:44
So there’s a creek and a paddle involved in your answer.

Larry 07:49
Well, I wouldn’t want to go that far. Because if you if you truly had someone on the outside in what would be the sending state in the state of conviction, who could actually get through to people in the interstate compact office in that state, you never call Kentucky, you never call the national office. But if you could find someone who might take an interest, it’s a long shot. I’m not encouraging it because I think it’s a really long shot because it doesn’t start at the interstate compact office, it starts at the prison, or at the probation, community supervision office, if you’re already out in the community. That’s where the process starts at. If you can find someone who would encourage them to initiate that process, but other than that, I don’t know anyway to forcibly require a state to allow you to go when you don’t have the right to go while you’re being punished. You have the you have the right to serve your punishment in the state that convicted you. That’s the right you have .

Andy 08:40
Do you think you could get any relief from the court?

Larry 08:45
No, I don’t.

Andy 08:46
All right. So You’re independently wealthy. You just have the million-dollar trust. You know, you’re some sort of you know, silver spoon, baby, whatever, you end up on the registry and you’re you just want to move and you don’t have any family and you want to move to Wyoming Where there’s just buffalo. And you say, I would like to move, you don’t need income, you don’t have a job. You don’t have family there, but you’re just trying to move out onto some thousand acres so you’re not near anybody. They don’t have to let you go, because they’re not into any one of those categories of having some sort of family anything of those required thingamabobs.

Larry 09:19
That That is correct. You You have no right to when people start thinking about what the courts can do, the courts can enforce rights courts are typically not intended to create rights that you don’t have. And since you don’t have a right to that, it might be a good public policy. I mean, there’s no one, When we talk about things that would be a good public policy, it might be a good public policy, if we allowed people to transfer particular if they had stronger family support or community support in the in the new state. But that doesn’t necessarily transfer into a right just because it’d be good public policy. It’d be good public policy, not 10 to 15 mile an hour speed limit, but we could have that if we wanted to. And there wouldn’t be anything unconstitutional about having that

Andy 10:03
Larry, I just always want you to be on our side.

Larry 10:07
I know that’s that’s kind of the emails I get occasionally.

Andy 10:12
which will segue into the next one. Another email asked how we can claim to be against the registry. When we seem to be okay with the decision from the PA Supreme Court. First of all, I don’t understand these decisions, like ever and I just accept whatever you tell me, like whatever you dump into my brain is what I accept. So were you like, are you for the registry? Let me just start there. You are pro registry person, aren’t you?

Larry 10:34
Well, I feel like after 137 previous episodes, I wouldn’t have to answer that. But if there’s, if there’s, if there’s any doubt, then I’ll say it for those doubters. I’m against registering people for criminal conduct. It’s it’s, it’s it goes against everything I believe in. But, but that doesn’t change the analysis. Again, we can have laws That people disagree with and that doesn’t transform them to being unconstitutional. All this mumbo jumbo about it? Well, it’s not backed by the science, they passed a law. It doesn’t have to be backed by data and science. And what we said about the Pennsylvania Supreme Court is that, that their 2012 SORNA Adam Walsh Act compliance was too harsh for people who had previous offenses that predated that. The legislature had a choice of just letting those people vanish into thin air or trying to come up with a registry scheme that would be less punitive, That would be that could be considered civil regulatory. The Supreme Court of that states that they hit that critical balance like that with the restrictions that they removed, and the fact that you can petition to be removed from the registry. And the fact that you don’t have to go in as frequently that that that now they no longer have a punitive scheme for those who have older offenses. That’s what the court said. But that shouldn’t be interpreted to say that that we’re for it. In fact, I wrote an article that’s posted on the NARSOL website, NARSOL is disappointed. And and we are disappointed. We wish they had said that even the peel-back version was still punitive, but they didn’t. And and then I concluded by saying that that is not likely to be any other alternative because the US Supreme Court, if they were to petition the Supreme Court here, they’re not going to they’ve already told us that when they denied hearing the the challenge on the previous decision in Munez they’re not going to hear this. They don’t see anything that they want to get involved in constitutionally. So So I think this is the end of the line until the legislature changes what’s required on the older registrants. That’s going to be the law for some time to come.

Andy 12:47
What I would like so so like, you know, I mean, you and I have been talking pretty regularly for like four or five years so I already I wouldn’t have interpreted the way that you described the This decision last week as your position being for this decision, so do you have any inkling as to why it would have been interpreted that way? Because I didn’t hear it at all. But just because you can, like agree with their assessment doesn’t mean you agree with like, you can look at the facts and you can pull back and like, well, the way the facts were presented, this makes sense. I don’t agree with it, but it makes sense.

Larry 13:27
That’s the best I can come up with is that I understand how they got to the conclusion that they did, because they’re looking at strictly from a constitutional point of view, using the US Supreme Court precedent and using the Kennedy Mendoza Martinez, seven factors which they disregard two of them. But they say that looking at that, that the the reduced restrictions no longer impose punishment in their opinion. We disagree, particularly because they’re still full internet publication. So I think There can be another round of litigation saying, Okay, let’s challenge the internet publication, particularly with all the stuff that wasn’t a part of the conviction. If you if you narrow your challenge down to just the things that were not a part of the conviction, because there’s no one can say they would have the right to know, this is a result of conviction or that would have automatically flowed to the public domain has resulted conviction because all the stuff that the registry lists is not a part of the conviction case, of the case file related to conviction. So I think there’s probably an avenue for a new case challenging that aspect of it, but there’s good people, they’re good people working in Pennsylvania they’re not gonna let this go and they’re going to come up with new angles to come back and try to at least further tighten the noose on the registry even though they’re not going to be able to abolish it through judicial intervention. And I think that’s probably what people hear. When I say the courts can’t end registration, they said, Well, he must be for it. Because the courts can’t end it.

Andy 14:55
But that would be like saying, Larry, the courts can’t end 75 mile an hour speed limits.

Larry 15:04
So well, I understand that but but people, people who really don’t understand the role of courts, which is what we try to help people understand the role of courts. They believe if you if you have a disagreement, and something doesn’t seem right that the courts exists to correct all wrongs, and that’s not what course exists to do.

Andy 15:23
I hear ya. All right. And then also, in regards to 137. It says with regards to interstate transfers, I listened closely to your discussion and it seemed to pertain entirely to folks who are currently under supervision. My question has to do with registration requirements in the receiving state. Once you have fulfilled your sentence and have been released from the registry in your home state, does the receive Act does the receiving state have the opportunity to impose their registration requirements on you if they would require registration for a similar offense, even though you are no longer under supervision or subject to registration in your home state? In my case, I live in Pennsylvania where my probation ended in 2016. And I was subsequently released from registration in 2018. As a result of the Munez decision to be specific, my offense did not require registration under Pennsylvania’s Megan’s Law in effect at the time of the offense in 2010. But under the 2012 adoption of the Adam Walsh Act, I was required to register for 15 years. As you know, this was found to be unconstitutional by the Pennsylvania Supreme Court, and my registration was terminated. I would like to move to Colorado where my understanding is that they have a lifetime registration requirement for a similar offense. I’ve been unable to find an attorney who has ever dealt with a case like this, and it seems as though nobody really knows that I would be required to register in Colorado. But if that is the case, I’m unlikely to move. I greatly appreciate your input or referral to someone who may have the answer to this question. Thanks muchly.

Larry 16:56
Has anyone ever told you that you are an amazing reader? (Andy: No) Well you are.

Andy 17:03
I can tell you growing up, I was never called anything amazing of anything regarding reading.

Larry 17:08
Well, you should you should go to broadcasting school. You could do well.

Andy 17:12
No I can’t beat Rick.

Larry 17:18
Well he is correct in his that we were we were focusing on the interstate transfer of supervision. We did blend in some mention of registry requirements, but only for only for the purpose of telling folks that they’re separate and unique. And he’s zeroed in on what’s a good, very good question. And as a favor, I’m going to provide the Colorado statute with the annotations which means that any case that’s been decided on each section of the Colorado statute, you’ll see what the courts have decided in the names of the cases. So that makes the statute be 59 pages, because I don’t generally put in annotations but I’m going to provide that but here’s here’s the deal. The registration requirements, as we talked about just a few seconds ago, when we equated to the car. Your relief from registration in Pennsylvania doesn’t do anything for you in any other state unless you can cite to a state that says in their statutory scheme, that anyone who has completed or been relieved from registration shall not have to register here. And I’m I’m recognized as an expert in this field, and I have not found such a provision in any state statute. So at the moment, I’m not aware of that. And at my first glance at the Colorado scheme, you would be required to register because you are a person and

Andy 18:50
I have personally transferred myself into a canine. So I don’t qualify anymore thank you.

Larry 18:57
And I believe that you’ve been convicted after 1994 (Andy: He said that yes.) so yeah, but he says 2010. So that would be after 1994. So we’ve got the person test, he wrote this email. So he is a person unless a robot could compose this. And he was convicted after 1994 whatever that date was, I did it in show prep. So and they define a sex offender as anyone who who, if they had committed that conduct in Colorado, that offense, they would have to register there. Chances are when you take a look at that list of offenses, you’re going to find that it would have been a registerable offense. Now I’m saying chances because I can’t give you a legal opinion. I don’t know enough, and I’m not authorized to give you a legal opinion, but chances are that it’s going to translate into a registerable sex offense in Colorado. But then that begs the new question. Since you’re not currently registered, there’s no handoff needing to occur. You’re not in a registration system, which means that you’re not obligated to tell PA that you’re leaving. And you’re not. I mean, unless there’s a hovercraft to staying with you, you’re not going to be followed by a hovercraft that’s going to report you. So it is conceivable that you could live 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, 50 years in Colorado and never have to register. It’s also conceivable that you could get into a barroom brawl like the person did from Colorado that moved to Nebraska. And they could run your background check. And they could see that you have that conviction in Pennsylvania. And they could say you need to register. Now I continue to tell people that I believe that they would just simply give you a notice of your register. I do not believe that if you’ve been properly discharged from registration in a state that they would because at that point, you don’t have the requisite notice requirement. An average person of ordinary intelligence would believe until they’re notified that they don’t have a duty to register. I don’t know too many people that would say oh, well, I’m done and finished but I better check a lot of people would assume that if you’re if you completed your sentence, and they view this as a part of their sentence, are done. So you would probably get a notice to register and a threat of prosecution if you didn’t register within a fixed number of days. But we can indeed refer you to an attorney. And in fact, if I was good at names, maybe Andy remembers her name. We can call her name now and then we will we will make the referral to her and she’ll be able to unravel this (Andy: Colleen?) Colleen Kelly.

Andy 21:24
I don’t know her.

Larry 21:26
So well we’ve had her on the on the call, oh, Colleen has been on the podcast before.

Andy 21:33
I don’t think No, she didn’t join us. She was on the NARSOL in Action. I don’t think she came over here.

Larry 21:37
Okay, well, I know she’s been on with us. And yeah, she she would be she would be a good, and Alison Ruttenberg, who did the the case that’s up on appeal with the 10th circuit would be another potential candidate. This is not a unique situation. I don’t know why that he has not been able to find an attorney that’s ever heard of this. This is quite a common thing. People actually get off registries in states And this is a very commonly asked question. I hear it on a regular basis. I don’t think a day goes by that I don’t hear this question. So I’m surprised that that no attorneys ever heard of that. It’s not that anything unique about it, it’s only unique to him because he was one of those unfortunate ones who at the time, he did his plea, that he was apprised, there was no duty to register. And then when they pass their version of the AWA, they took a list of offenses that had previously required registration. And if people had not turned out their entire obligations, they said, congratulations, you’re now required to register and they quickly notified those people. And some people were then like, months or weeks or a year or two of discharging their sentencing in Pennsylvania, and all of a sudden were told that they had to register. It was really terrible. It happened and people people suffered immensely. And finally, the courts years later, corrected it and he no longer has to register in that state.

Andy 22:55
I am trying to think of some sort of snarky question to ask you. Was I it’s like if you ended up at a restaurant where there’s like a mafia person eating, and then they raid the restaurant, that is how you would come under the purview of the police that they may run a background check. You just get like detained and they run everybody and they figure out that you’re not related to the mafia guy, but Oh, and like, I mean, would it just be like, you type in their name John Doe And like, everything starts flashing, this person has a record convicted of this? I mean, how many how many degrees of separation would just the lockup person? How far down the rabbit hole would they have to go to figure out that you aren’t on the Colorado registry and you should be?

Larry 23:42
They would have to do more than an average officer. And anybody wants to invite an officer on here that wants to talk about it because since I’ve never been an officer, but from my communications with officers, they typically when they pull you over, want to know basic information about you. They don’t want to know criminal history unless you give them over reason to want to know that, like suspicious circumstances that causes them to believe you might be engaged in criminality. In a standard roadside pullover or a standard encounter as you’re describing, there wouldn’t be any suspicion of criminality on you, per se. So there you go, when they run you when they pull you over for doing a California stop, they want to know if there’s any warrants outstanding that would take you into custody. So they run that one of the person fills in the NCIC. There’s a number of databases with NCIC that so they’re looking to see if you’re wanted, there’s another person field called the sex offender registration. So every law enforcement agency that registers a person interested into the NCIC so the agency that issued the agency issues, where the warrant is issued, They turn that over to someone in that jurisdiction, they entered into in the NCIC. When that warrant is served when they when they collect your body, that warrant is cancelled now it doesn’t vanish. It’s still in the NCIC. It’s an executed warrant, the fact that you your registration as these are entered by the court or times out, that doesn’t change the fact you were registered, but you’re no longer coming up in that active file. (Andy: Okay) They call that a bullet below the line hit, you know, they so they have to want to go below the line. So they’re looking to see if you’re wanted, they’re looking to see if you’re on supervision, they’re looking to see if you’re registered sex offender, they’re looking to see if you’re carrying a concealed permit if you’ve got one of those because for some reason, although officers claimed they believe in the right to carry weapons, it makes them extremely nervous that someone might have a weapon. So if you come if you come up on, did you have a concealed carry permit? They’re going to come running to the car and say, sir, can you tell me where your weapon is? So that’s the type of things that an average encounter is going to, but now the other hand if you’re in a very ritzy neighborhood, at two o’clock in the morning, and you’ve got your car thumping, and making all the noise that to blooming, somebody called the cops and and when they get out there, they can’t see through the windows and we When they finally, when they finally engage with you, and you’ve got, you’ve got all these things that just don’t look right in the car that that average you wouldn’t find at two o’clock in the morning. They might run your criminal history, but it takes time and they can do it. Most every agency has cars that are they equipped with the NCIC in the car these days, but they generally don’t do it. But they could run your criminal history without any provocation also could be bored one day and say I haven’t pulled anybody over all day today, let me run this guy’s history.

Andy 26:30
It seems it feels like it’d be a little bit of a stretch, though, that just Joe Schmo cop is going to be like, Well, we’ve got John Doe pulled over here, and I’m going to go see if he should be on the registry. That seems like that would be a stretch, there’s two or three pieces of information that the person will be looking to connect to it like because I mean, statistically, there aren’t that many of us in the United States that would be in another state where they should have registered that didn’t like I mean, that’s the number People that would be in that category, we really love for them to just go fishing all the time looking for that person.

Larry 27:06
That is that is correct and like I say that you’re going to get a notice is what you’re going to get. Now, I can’t guarantee you that just like I wasn’t able to guarantee anything last week, I can’t guarantee you’ll get a notice. But if you have a good faith belief that you shouldn’t be registered, and they happen to discover that you should be. And in all my experience, which is approaching 20 years now that people have been provided noticed, and a threat if you don’t do this, you’re going to get prosecuted. I don’t know anyone, and I challenged the listening audience that you have been pulled over and I said, we’ve got you It’s the 45th hour, we’re gonna prosecute you. And that’s where you actually are currently registered and you just happen to be visiting a state but a person who’s actually been discharged from registration. I challenge you to tell me a case for they have been prosecuted and not provided notice of a new state. I don’t think you’ll be able to find it. And then someone’s gonna write and say, well just because it hasn’t happened, doesn’t mean it can’t. And if that’s the way you feel didn’t just go in and register go in when you get to Colorado or whatever state may be and say, I got discharged, and I’m worried and I’d like to register here.

Andy 28:15
We have a person in North Carolina that did that two or three times and eventually got himself kind of effed up.

Larry 28:20
Yeah, he like but if you go on enough times and asked to register, you’ll eventually find someone who will register you if you do that.

Andy 28:29
but before we move on in chat, so even if you’re off the registry, that will follow you wherever you go. And you have to follow that state. So the destination state wherever you’re moving to, in this case, the Colorado State, you have to follow the rules of their registry, even if you’ve been released from wherever you’ve come from.

Larry 28:49
If you’re if their statute defines your offense and your conviction date, your conduct date, however they define a sex offender. If your conduct fits within their statutory scheme, you would technically have a requirement that there would be no regard for the other state having terminated that requirement. It doesn’t factor in their analysis at all.

Andy 29:08
Oh, well, then let me let me throw this at you in on the Georgia thing, when you do your annual, I’m just going to assume that other states have some sort of similar language that you are acknowledging that you know that is your job to go check out the rules that they may change whenever the legislature wants to, and it’s your job to keep up with the changes. So like, that’s their notification that they can change stuff that you know that you have the duty to to the obligation to register. But when you go step foot into the new territory of the next state, you haven’t been given that notification yet.

Larry 29:40
Well, if you are currently registered, you have because you know, everybody, I think all the registry knows that all 50 states have a registry. So if you’re currently registered, if you’re currently registered, you know that you’re going to likely fall within a zone of coverage. If you are not registered by the mechanisms that we’ve discussed, including what happened to him. He doesn’t have that notice, because in his mind, his obligation ended when the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania said, you can’t do this. (Andy: Right. That’s kind of what I’m getting at.) But then he’s going to have to receive a new notification that he has to register before he’s gonna be subject to prosecution. He doesn’t have any notice of that. When he encounters a cop in Colorado, and they say, Whoa, we ran your conviction history and you do have a sex offense. They’re going to provide him a notice to register. And then he can say you can take your registration and go to hell with it. And he can go back to Pennsylvania, or he could comply or face the threat of prosecution.

Andy 30:43
I gotcha. I gotcha. Okay, well, then let’s cover some news articles before we have our super fun thing. At the end. We’re going to be covering a great topic. Let’s cover this first thing it says this is from the Colorado Gazette. I guess it would be and it’s Colorado board that writes rules for management of PFRs is rife with conflicts, state audits, fines. This is like you said, like, you’re not surprised that they would find this and I don’t know that I, I, to me, it would seem like they would just sort of automatically accept like, this is the best thing ever. But, but it’s just it’s the bureaucracy of it that we don’t want to get rid of our jobs. So we’re going to do everything that we can to make sure that we keep as many people registered as possible. I just like to read articles where they actually denounced the registry in some form or fashion.

Larry 31:33
Well, when you when you have a sex offender management board, and and I think overall, the concept of a board is good. But what happens is when you’re trying to figure out the composition of the board, you end up with a disaster because the composition of who who ends up on the board by statute, in our state, for example, all the all the law enforcement apparatus has a seat at the table either they’re either the secretary of the director of these agencies or their designee. And then in order to make sure that we consider the treatment component, they invite the treatment professionals to have seats at the table. And what the treatment providers do?

Andy 32:15
They treat PFRs and get paid to do it.

Larry 32:19
Okay, so do you think that they would like to channel more customers to their, to their business? Or do you think they would try to figure out how to get rid of as many customers as they can?

Andy 32:27
I’m pretty sure that they would be in the business of getting as many as possible.

Larry 32:32
And therein lies the conflict. So when you create these boards, they look good conceptually, you say, Well, you know, we’re gonna have, we’re gonna have a diverse Board of law enforcement, judges, and treatment professionals and probation professionals and all this. And what happens is that the law enforcement apparatus has its bias. And the treatment apparatus has its bias and the treatment apparatus is not going to do anything to curtail the demand for the services it provides. So magically we come up with everybody needs treatment. And I hate to break it to you. There are people who commit sex offenses who do not need any treatment whatsoever. (Andy: totally true. On the flipside of that there are those that do.) well, let me let me finish on that. So that people out there that are listening don’t think I’ve gone off the deep end because I may have been out of this issue. People commit sex offenses because we’ve criminalized behavior that question we shouldn’t be criminalized, perfectly normal behavior is criminalized. And okay, I don’t need to treat you if you’re 19 and you have an interest in a 17-year-old. There’s nothing to treat there. So all I’m doing is bleeding money from you, to give you treatment that you do not need. The only treatment that you would need, which is really isn’t professional psychological treatment. It would be that we would try to treat You to understand it’s important to know the boundaries of the law. You need to know that we’ve imposed, we’ve imposed, we’ve imposed a moral code that may be a little bit irrational. And you need to think about what you would have thought you would have had the freedom to do in the land of the free but you don’t have that freedom. But in terms of being anything physically wrong with you mentally wrong, there’s nothing to treat. So, so but but, but I do believe that treatment can be very beneficial. But all with the exception of Maryland, which is pure as the wind-driven snow. most of the states have, have treatment designed to fail. It’s a collaboration, to fish out things to violate the person and other treatment of people are going to love it when I say this, but they work in conjunction with the probation officers relaying everything that they say with no confidentiality, and they are fishing for information and then magically the person gets violated I just can’t imagine being just a dumb country boy. I can’t imagine how treatment would be effective if you’re afraid to tell your inner thoughts that might be those those thinking errors that cause you to start down a path towards misbehavior. If you can’t discuss those urges, and those thoughts, with a treatment professional that’s going to do therapy rather than than handcuff therapy, then how effective can that treatment be?

Andy 35:25
You’re not being super hard on Maryland and might be confusing people in that state, might you because you’re picking on somebody?

Larry 35:33
No, no, no, Maryland does it right. They they have a system where that the treatment providers are vetted carefully, and they only treat with the best of intentions and you don’t have all these problems that we have in my state and around the country. So Maryland does it right.

Andy 35:51
Okay. I just wanted to know, I got I see a comment there in chat that you might be leading people astray.

Larry 35:59
No, Maryland probably does have, I’m not aware of anywhere in my state where they do it right. I think at one time Maryland actually did have some some parts of the state that was that was trying to do it Right. And, and but here, I don’t know of anywhere in our state where treatment’s been done right. I’m sorry to say that. And for many states I hear from the same model is enforced what we use here. So I’m very much down on treatment. But back to the point of the article, the the the treatment people like we had in our state, we had a very prominent sex offender treatment person which shall remain nameless on the air but this person is the reason why we have indeterminate supervision. We never had indeterminate probation or parole in this state till about 17 years ago. And then we had a treatment provider who came and testified so eloquently about how important it is for treatment, which was music to the ears of the of the of the audience of the lawmakers. We’re for treatment. And then he said, but the problem is these offenders are so difficult to treat. They’re resistant. They are in denial. And we don’t we don’t break through oftentimes, and time before their supervision. And then what’s the solution? Doctor? What’s the solution is longer periods of supervision. Well, how much longer one that that’s the difficult question. We don’t know how much longer we just know that we should, we should have a longer period of supervision. But what about indeterminate? Oh, that’s an idea. And then well, what would we what would we do about getting those people off? How would we determine that they’re ready for release? Well, they would need to be able to have an evaluation take place. Well, how would those evaluations happen? Hehe, we do them. All of a sudden, you’ve got a regime in place that requires everyone to be indeterminately supervised for a sexual offense here. And then they have to go through a very expensive proposition of a court hearing. An attorney at a psychosexual eval. And then they may or may not be terminated from supervision. If you’re on parole, it’s almost impossible to get terminated from supervision. And magically they need treatment the entire time they’re on supervision. How does that come about? That you need treatment the entire time.

Andy 38:13
I feel that I was super fortunate that there was a treatment that I did go to the person, he was a PhD. So like, I think I can make a distinction, at least just anecdotally, from people that I’ve spoken to the ones that are like, Doctor doctors have a clue and they’re interested in the treatment, but the ones that are less than they are part of this this regime that you’re talking about. And he he wasn’t fishing if you didn’t if he didn’t think that you were hiding something he didn’t go fishing to get information out of you to try and then pass it over to probation to get you jammed up. It just he seemed to be very rational and reasonable about it.

Larry 38:53
So well, it’s fantastic. I occasionally do hear of people who were felt very fortunate to be hooked with good treatment, unfortunately, I never hear that from my state. But I do hear of it from around the country. And I think it’s a good thing. That’s the whole intent of this. Since we’re integrating these offenders, former offenders into society, we should want the most effective treatment that we can have.

Andy 39:20
The one other thing that I highlighted in the article, which I’m all about some science, and it says that they were questioning the validity of polygraphs, contending that they were little more than junk science, and that seemed kind of coincidental to me. Somebody asked me about getting information on, on what I thought about polygraphs. And before I go on some rant about polygraphs. But anyway so they were even saying in here that they’re they’re using polygraphs, but to just state it like it makes people confess to things even though there’s no there’s no science behind it. It’s just a boo game. It just scares you into going along with them saying well you were out past curfew. *gasp* You know that I was out past curfew and then you admit to it so then everything goes down the toilet.

Larry 40:01
Well, and you have evolved my thinking from from from this podcast at the time we started. My experience with polygraphs was I knew I didn’t like them. I knew that they had outlawed them in the private sector back in the Reagan administration of all times. Companies like Magic Market in Georgia the Mumford company. They used to polygraph everybody’s condition of employment. And then if they had an inventory shortage, they would polygraph people to find out where the missing inventory went. And that was outlawed. That practice was outlawed decades ago. But in the practice of law, we discovered that everybody who shows deception, had always admitted that they did whatever it was that they were accused of doing. So therefore, I concluded from I mean, statistically, the people show deception, and then they say, Yep, I did it. So to me, they work.

Andy 40:50
Yes they work in that respect.

Larry 40:53
But you provoked me to have an in-depth conversation. So I had an off the record conversation, with a person who has been doing polygraphs for a very long time. And in fact, I don’t think I should say anymore. But in fact, he is well positioned in the state and said that I can’t say this publicly, but it’s not much better than a coin toss. But you’ve been you’ve been doing this for all these years. And he said, Yep, but it’s not but the results are not much better than coin toss. Well, knowing that I can’t see how in good conscience we could require these people to pay these huge sums of money for something that’s not much better than a toss of a coin.

Andy 41:34
I think you hit it, how can we expect them to pay this money I mean, that’s the point of it. It is about the money for the polygrapher which like I don’t even want to call it a profession because it’s no better than somebody selling snake oil. But you know, they charge the $200, $250 whatever for the for the poly. That’s all it is.

Larry 41:51
And that’s, that’s really cheap. The private rate here is by much higher than that. now the government rate for for for department corrections tends to be in the $300 range but if you go out and solicit a private polygraph, you’re going to pay double that here.

Andy 42:06
All right now Now why did you put this in here? Why are you going to stoke all the there’s gonna be a certain group of people that are going to hate on this dismissal of Michael Flynn’s case will go before the full DC circuit. We have a couple articles, one from courthouse news, and the other one from NPR. The other one is left leaning rags. So we’re going to get in trouble for NPR. So why’d you put this in here?

Larry 42:28
Well, because we talk about petition for rehearing en banc and how rarely, it’s granted. So what’s unique about this case, is that the judge himself judge, district, US District Judge Emmet Sullivan, has tried to insert himself as a party to this case. And although the government wants to drop the case, Judge Sullivan is trying to pretend that he has standing to litigate the Department of Justice’s decision to dismiss the case. And two of the three judge panel on the DC Circuit said, No, you don’t. And and then they the the petition for full court review, I think there are 10 on this circuit. I went to the website right before the podcast, there’s either 10 or 11. But the full court is going to hear this and what the relevance is I’m not I’m not interested in Flynn, per se. I’m interested in the nuances of the case because if we allow a judge to be a party to a case, we’ve we’ve destroyed the neutrality of the judge. The judge is not the prosecutor. And and we’re allowing if they flip the panel if the full court flips the panel and reverses their decision, we are affording to a different judge or to a judge, that they are party to the action and they’re not. They’re a neutral, detached observer. And I agree with the panel. And I hope that the full court doesn’t allow Sullivan to do what he’s trying to do, which is to keep the case alive. I have no preference about what to know about what Flynn did. To me, it’s a bigger issue, that is an issue of the prosecution decides what they’re going to prosecute what they’re going to drop. And the judge doesn’t get to decide that.

Andy 44:24
So he draws on what cases they are pointed to.

Larry 44:27
Well, they draw straws, but it’s just not their decision. And when, when the government decides it doesn’t want to move forward anymore. What what’s eaten at Sullivan is he’s already taken a plea on this case. And therefore, he says that the evidence is there sufficient for a conviction. And that’s the only point he he’s got. But evidence can change. You could look at the evidence and say, gee, we misunderstood that and yes, you could be subject to political pressure. There’ll be people out there who will say that, but it’s ultimately the prosecution’s call. What is going to be a struggle for this panel for this full court, is they look at this panel decision, because they allow this to come about through habeas corpus, which is a very, very narrow process. It’s a very narrow train to ride on the habeas corpus. And very, very few exceptions are allow you to, claims that you would like to assert are not cognizable in that proceeding. So this is going to expand, if if they affirm the panel, this is going to expand habeas corpus a little bit. And that’s usually a scary thing for courts, because when they look at it, they see that avalanche, well we open up habeas corpus to this type of claim then all of a sudden we’re gonna have the proverbial floodgates. So they’re really going to be in a conundrum here because they allowed Flynn to use a habeas proceeding to, to do this cause of action. And so I’m intrigued by it. But I have no opinion about Flynn. I don’t have I’m not alleging any political interference or anything. It’s just it’s a masterwork at play in terms of the legal challenge.

Andy 46:00
Can you give me the one sentence response to what is a habeas corpus? Like the definition of that?

Larry 46:08
Well, that’s that’s a vehicle of of ancient origin to get yourself before a court. If you believe your custody is unlawful, that you should not be held so it’s a writ to say bring me before the court. And, and its origin it was for people who were in physical custody but as society has evolved, we’ve recognized custody to be not only physical custody but but constructive custody, which can be probation, parole, even on supervised probation in some jurisdictions has been recognized as custody when you’re when you’re when you’re under the control of the system. So he used habeas corpus which which has not been recognized for the purpose that he used it. And we went we did that we did the deep dive earlier, I’m not brushed up enough to talk about it in this episode, but we did the deep dive a few episodes back he asserted unique claims for habeas corpus and the they recognize those as viable. And, and the the dissenting judge on the three-judge panel said, Wow, this has never been held to be a proper use of habeas corpus for the type of relief he’s getting. So that’s the nuance of an expanding habeas corpus. Generally, conservatives don’t like to expand habeas corpus because it means more cases before the court, which inundates the courts and these people that are in custody, they they should just accept their custodial status and quit whining about it. That’s why they passed the anti-terrorism and effective death penalty act in 1996 to severely limit habeas corpus. So this is this is intriguing, and we’ll come back to it once a panel they’re going to hear oral arguments in the next week or so. And I expect a decision fairly quickly because of the prominence of this case, but certainly by the end of the year, early next year at the latest and this is going to be I don’t think they’re gonna release it before the election. I think I think they consider that politically risky but but I think we’re gonna have a decision shortly after the election or certainly early next year, it’s gonna be fascinating to see what they do

Andy 48:07
very well. And then over at the appeal, we only have one more after this one says Mississippi teen who has languished in jail for 17 months without an indictment is just one of thousands. I believe you have a constitutional right to a speedy trial. But I was thinking about this and I was like, maybe that’s after you’re charged like you have been indicted, then you have a right to a speedy trial. If they just sort of detain you. Can they just let you sit there for a long time?

Larry 48:33
Apparently so. I was I was a little bit confused by this article. But apparently it all hinges on the fact that he hasn’t been indicted. And but yet the judge finds he’s a danger to the community because he was out on bond and he got accused of a new crime. So that that’s enough evidence to continue to hold him according to the judge, that the community needs to be kept safe from this guy.

Andy 48:58
How about the angle That when he let’s see the, on July 14 the day that he turned 16 he had spent he had already been there for 511 days. That’s like how is he, he can’t be detained for this long as a minor this doesn’t make any sense to me.

Larry 49:19
It is distressing. But but his original charge date dates back to to what he was just 13 he was arrested on armed robbery charge and allegedly stealing from an elderly man at gunpoint. He was quickly released which is the right thing to do for for a juvenile you try to find some structure and make sure that they’re they’re in an environment where that they’re properly supervised, which may mean state custody depending on depending on the circumstances. But But that was the proper way to do it. You don’t want to hold 13 year olds in jail I’m sorry, but civil essence law does try to get 13 year olds out of jail so that was the right thing to do. But then he got arrested again. On aggravated assault charges involving a gun and another teenager and they still they revoked his release on the previous charge. And therein lies the problem. The judge saying, Hey, he’s dangerous.

Andy 50:06
So, we have 13 year olds in Mississippi jails and for years this is this is crazy. All right, well, there you go. Hey, thanks, Mississippi Keep up the good work.

Larry 50:17
Well, that’s the same one where the governor says all the problems with the prisons because of cell phones.

Andy 50:21
That’s right, I could play that clip too.

Larry 50:24
that’s the problem.

Andy 50:26
Ready to be a part of Registry Matters? Get links at registry matters.co. If you need to be discreet about it, contact them by email registrymatterscast@gmail.com you can call or text a ransom message to (747)227-4477. Wanna a support Registry Matters on a monthly basis? Head to patreon.com/registrymatters. Not ready to become a patron give a five-star review at Apple podcasts for stitcher or tell your buddies at your treatment class about the podcast. We want to send out a big heartfelt support for those on the registry. Keep fighting. Without you, we can’t succeed, you make it possible. And you put this in just on my behalf. So this from the intercept how cops can secretly track your phone, a guide to Stingray surveillance technology which may have been deployed at recent protests. Do you know what a stingray machine is?

Larry 51:27
As I understand it is kind of a roving cell tower that can substitute for your cell tower service. So it it it takes over the it takes over the call and you never know the difference.

Andy 51:37
Correct. So yeah, so and and it’s owned by you know, by the man so to speak, and then they so you go to protest or if that you know, and, you know, they may be looking for Osama bin Laden in Central City Park or you know, in a Central Park in New York City, but they’re also grabbing the other hundred thousand people that are that are around that however much the sting Stinger can handle, Stingray can handle But just wanted to put it on people’s radar that the man has these tools available to them that you would have no idea that this mobile unit has been put in your vicinity and they are tracking your movements. If they put they put three down then they have your exact location if they just have one they know that you were sort of like within a circumference of it. But they wouldn’t know your exact GPS. Well, I guess they could actually because your phone’s probably turned on to do all the GPS tracking. They could just pick up the data from it. Yeah, you’re screwed. That’s a warrantless search though.

Larry 52:34
So, yep, it would be a warrantless search. We’ve got a fun article coming out of Michigan, don’t we?

Andy 52:43
Yes, we do. This is the next one that’s up. This is from the Washington Times and it says Michigan’s top court kills lawsuit by wrongly imprisoned man. Here’s a dude, as I understand it, that pled out to something that he shouldn’t have been convicted of and then violated the probation. So he goes to prison, but then his case his like conviction was overturned, but they wouldn’t let him go or wouldn’t like, compensate him for being gone for 17 months, something like that. Did I do that right?

Larry 53:19
Well, I’m going to try to do do it this, this is confusing, and it’s gonna probably be better if people, I made the copy of the case. The the publication doesn’t have a link to it because of the age at the time of the person. But I went and researched it and got the case and I’ve made a few highlights. And I think it would be helpful. It’s not a long decision. It’s only 13 pages. And it’s nuanced enough that even I have trouble following it. But what happened was Michigan changed the law that that released people that had convictions as used from the registry. And the the the MSP, the Michigan State Police was supposed to notify everybody but they never notified this guy. So he kept, he kept registering. And, and then he gave an incorrect address either inadvertently or advertently. He gave an incorrect address. And he got prosecuted for that. And then subsequent to that, he got prosecuted again. And this is after he’s no longer required to register. He got prosecuted, and they sent him to prison the next time around. And it took the Michigan Department of Corrections 17 months to realize when they looked at his age, and I looked at his conviction, they said, Wow, you’ve got released for registration years ago, but the MSP had not notified him and relieved about that duty. And his his second conviction, he pled out, which I don’t understand when we talk about bad lawyering. I’m gonna I’m gonna dump on your lawyers out there, Michigan. If you take a case and the law has changed, that has relieved people from the duty to register with useful offenses. And you don’t take the time to figure this out. If he can’t recover from the state, I hope he goes after you. Because you had a duty to know. And you should not have pled him out when you told him to take that guilty plea. You told the court that in your professional opinion, that the court had subject matter jurisdiction, meaning that that a law within Michigan within the jurisdiction of the court had been violated, that your client had violated it, and they had personal jurisdiction over him. They didn’t have either in this case, they did not have personal jurisdiction over the guy because he was not required to register they didn’t have subject matter jurisdiction. So you botched your job but anyway, whenhe gets out of prison he files a lawsuit seeking compensation for for for the 17 months. And then that’s where it gets really nuanced. With what now people typically can think of the defendant as a bad guy. In this case, he’s the initiator, he’s the plaintiff. His name is Anthony Hart, and the state of Michigan is the defendant. So so the defendant always tries to get rid of your litigation, they file motions to dismiss. And they filed a motion to dismiss on two grounds. They said that, that the that the the state of Michigan had sovereign immunity. And then they said that in the alternative, that the he had failed to state a claim upon which relief can be granted. So they filed under Michigan, MCR and it gets ad number and I’m assuming that that that that’s that that’s Michigan Compiled rules. I’m guessing that’s what that stands for. But because they have MTL for Michigan compiled laws, I’m assuming that stands for the for the Rules of Civil Procedure. So they filed a motion to dismiss under C7 and C8 of that section and C7 and C8 have different standards of what’s appealable. In C8 the you have to have leave of the appeals court, you did not have an automatic right to an appeal. So it’s all nuanced and the appellate court didn’t possibly have jurisdiction because he had not asked for leave to do that appeal. All the section where the state prevailed. And so so the nuance of it is is that that, that whether or not the appellate court should have been looking at it without without having received a motion and granting leave to file on appeal was all the biggie. But on the rare cases like this, I actually read the dissent. And the dissent is fantastic. So I encourage people to read the dissent because the dissenting judges is a sharply divided four-three decision on dissenting judges are just add a bunch of how ridiculous this is the terms What what what the state imposed upon him. They say on page 9, they say, So the plaintiff was not entitled to relief because he could have avoided his legal arrest or detention by complying with a law that he was not required to law to comply with, or by taking the initiative to ask the state to please follow the laws expressed requirement and that the state remove him from from the registry, or by someone figuring out that the state provided him with deficient counsel, which I just did a blistering criticism. You were incompetent, defense counsel, but he was supposed to, that’s the standard that they imposed on him and then in the previous paragraph, they said Put simply, the panel held it because people who are not required to be on the registry might in theory, take steps to avoid the state’s failure to remove them, and illegally arrest them. They are better positioned than fleeing felons to avoid being victims of a constitutional torts, meaning that if he had done more, than he wouldn’t have been a victim so they blame him, The victim, which is what we’re not supposed to do. So on page eight, they blame the victim say if he had done more, he wouldn’t have been the victim. I mean, I love it. So the dissent actually just caused me great joy to read that because three of the four, three of the seven judges understood how silly This is.

Andy 59:18
And why did you read the dissent? You you said Like, I don’t ever read the sense because they don’t matter?

Larry 59:23
Well, they don’t matter, because this is the end of the line. As far as I know. I can’t think of what else he would do. But when I read the majority opinion, it seemed it seemed like it was it was a majority who were struggling for a reason to rule in favor of the state. And when they struggle that hard and got themselves in such a contorted pretzel, and I see the court that divided I said, well, gee, I wonder what they saw. And when I read that, I said, I know I see. This is so silly. I mean, the preceding paragraph it said it noted to say without having arrested and convicted plaintiffs or conduct that was not criminal If one he had, say the correct address while complying with a statute which he was not required to comply with. And two, had had been aware of the change in law and taking steps to remove himself from the registry and three had been represented by an attorney who noticed that he was not required to register. How do you know that your attorney’s competent?

Andy 1:00:20
Yeah, I thought why we are hiring attorneys because we are not competent. That’s why the attorney is supposed to be competent.

Larry 1:00:26
I thought that that was the job of the state of Michigan to provide competent counsel for the people that were indigent and needed counsel, I thought that that was your job to vet them and say that they’re qualified. I did not know that as a burden we shifted to the defendant.

Andy 1:00:40
Larry, as much as I respect your intellect. I’m not bringing you to fix bringing my car for you to fix it. It’s just not what you’re good at. That’s why we hire attorneys that are quote unquote, supposed to be experts in these fields. That’s garbage that’s garbage that that they put the burden back on him and then blamed him for it.

Larry 1:01:00
I think it was really tragic. I hope he sues the lawyer. Yeah, if you’re listening, I know that we have probably about 100,000 listeners in Michigan. If you’re listening, contact us.

Andy 1:01:12
Okay. And is that is that is that us as in Registry Matters or somebody else

Larry 1:01:16
Registry matters. Don’t we have about 100,000 listeners in Michigan?

Andy 1:01:19
I mean, I thought you were kind of low balling it.

Larry 1:01:22
Well, I’m sure if at least that

Andy 1:01:24
Okay. So Larry, I saw I was trolling around on the internet. And I saw somebody asking some questions about SORNA. So I threw together. I don’t know a dozen-ish questions regarding SORNA. And you being the expert on all things SORNA and things like that related. I figured we could kind of bet around this idea of what SORNA is, where does where the lines drawn between where this applies, what it affects what it doesn’t affect, what are the rules? What are the punishments for their not implementing rules, it’s, et cetera. Did I say that right, Brenda? No. etc, etc. I hear it all the time when I listen to podcasts and I and I guess that would be a very regional thing of the way that they say etc. But so here we go about some SORNA of stuff. What is SORNA?

Larry 1:02:16
Well, it would be the sex offender registration and notification Act, which was a component of the Adam Walsh Act of 2006.

Andy 1:02:28
So it’s a piece, Adam Walsh Act being the daddy and then SORNA being a piece of the daddy. That’s probably not a very good analogy, but…

Larry 1:02:37
that is a good that is a good analogy. That’s what sort of it is. Now what confuses people is because the term SORNA has been around for a long time even before Adam Walsh Act, states had named their sex offender registration notification act they had named it either SORA or SORNA. So when when when people say SORNA always ask which sort are you talking about? You talking about your state or are you talking about federal?

Andy 1:03:00
They probably looked at you like, I don’t know that you’re even asking me a question that I would have an answer to, they probably look at you like, you’re dumb.

Larry 1:03:07
Well, they do.

Andy 1:03:10
And I wrote down so this is Title One that is to say that part of the Adam Walsh Act, which was signed in 2006, you said that already, um, does SORNA impose any living or work restrictions to PFRs. And for those new PFRs, person forced to register, that’s a term that I don’t know if that somebody else said that we should start using that here. We didn’t we didn’t create this, but instead of saying, sex offender, so we start saying PFRs.

Larry 1:03:37
There are no restrictions on where a person can live or work within the federal SORNA structure. It’s not encouraged. It’s not mentioned. It’s not there. Which means if your jurisdiction has restrictions, they did not get those recommendations from the feds.

Andy 1:03:56
So they decided to make them up for whatever reason that they decided to make them up.

Larry 1:04:00
That would be correct. There’s no encouragement by the federal authorities to have have those restrictions.

Andy 1:04:09
the way that I word I said how does SORNA interact with the states is SORNA federal legislation but one like so, you know, so Florida and Alabama and many of those states like around that area they like they’re just horrible. But other places are less horrible. So how does SORNA make that? How does SORNA interact with them making their laws?

Larry 1:04:31
In simple, simple terms, that’s the power of the Federal appropriation that that is how they interact. But there really is no federal Sex Offender Registry. And that really confuses people. There is a registry. There is a there is a website that that searches in state registry, you can go to a federal website that merely looks into the state registries, but there’s no federal registry, the way they interact is that the feds have said if you’d like the federal money, then we would strongly urge you to adopt registration standards that are at least at these levels. And I think it would be helpful to have some background and long-term listeners, I apologize. You’ve heard this before, but the people who have joined in the almost three years we’ve been doing this. Everyone hasn’t heard it. We had a registry before 2006. We actually had to Jacob Wetterling act that passed in 1994. (Andy: This is going back to the 50s or something.) Yeah, yeah. Well, there was a few states that California had 47. I think Washington State adopted was it 89 or 90, but but but as far as at the federal level, the the the Jacob Wetterling Act was passed, and it gave the states the same three years to comply to create registries that were that met the standards at the time. And the standards were far more lenient at the time. So all states had come into compliance within the three year period with with adopting registries but what they discovered was that, that you had states do what they had no incentive to do. And so, so they adopted these registries and some states were fairly lacks on what they did. And well, people had gone off the grid. And I have no idea if the number of 100,000 is accurate or not. But that was what was paraded before congressional testimony in 2006. That 100,000 sex offenders, approximately 500,000 that were required to register at the time had gone missing. And that was a 20% of absconding, absconding from from registration. And the state that they have been convicted and had absolutely no incentive to spend their resources to find them because what you would do if you were in state A, and you went to do a verification of a resident and they weren’t there and you started asking around And they say, Well, last I heard that person moved from Alabama to Ohio. You would uncork the champagne bottles and say, Well, he’s their problem. (Andy: Now that’s one less.) Yep, that’s exactly now see Ohio didn’t know they were there. Because they hadn’t registered in Ohio, they just simply checked out of Alabama. And Alabama wasn’t about to spend resources. As I’ve said, you would be totally insane to bring a person back because I know that 90 something percent are never going to reoffend, but some of those are going to reoffend. So if you spend your valuable resources going out and extraditing, 100 sex offenders that have gone off grid to bring back to your state, and then you’re released from your state, you’re going to have sex offenders committing offenses in your state that they would have been in Ohio committed. And I don’t know about you, but from a public policy perspective, you’d much rather have them committing in Ohio than in your state, wouldn’t you?

Andy 1:07:54
Yeah, not in my backyard. All right,

Larry 1:07:56
So so that was the gap that had Feds were seeking to create to close that gap, this address that because thousands, as many as 100,000 had had not had complied. And so then it begs the question, what do we do? And the feds realized they don’t have jurisdiction to have a registry. They knew that they didn’t in ‘94. They didn’t have jurisdiction. And they do again in 2006. They didn’t have jurisdiction. But what they wanted was a prosecutorial tool to use in their arsenal. So when people cross state lines, they say, Oh, well, that makes it federal. I mean, even though when they got convicted in Alabama, they never left Alabama. We don’t have any jurisdiction. But if we can track them to another state, then they have engaged in interstate commerce because they crossed jurisdictional boundaries. So they put that one component in there that that that the feds can prosecute. And then they shoveled a whole bunch of money to a fugitive effort, comprehension task force to go out and find all these thousands Missing sex offenders. And a lot of prosecutions ensued because of this very well-funded unit in the US Marshal services been looking for missing PFRs. So that’s the backstory of the registry. They were trying to close the gap. But they also had had John Walsh, who was the father of poor Adam, who I think killed in the early 80s. That came over the year ’81, ‘82 somewhere in that era, but but he was pontificating, that, that that the laws weren’t tough enough. And so the states were encouraged to adopt more rigid guidelines in terms of what qualified as a sex offender that the amount of times they have to have the amount of times per year that they have to check in and the duration of registration. All those things were were recommended to be being increased. And many states have dutifully followed suit and some had already gone beyond it like our state already had standards tougher than the edibles act. When the animal shack passed. We had already surpassed that. We’ve got offenses that are required to be registered under our lawful lifetime. And the Adam Walsh Act doesn’t even recommend that.

Andy 1:10:05
Okay, is this kind of like going to a buffet and you get to the states so the the Fed set up a template and then the states go and check out the buffet and they want some pineapple and some lettuce and they want some ham and whatever, and they just get to pick and choose what they want to put in place. And if they achieve some level, then they get maximum funding and then less as they go back.

Larry 1:10:28
That is correct. It’s it’s a these are these are recommendations for minimum standards for what they deemed to be substantially compliant. And substantial compliance is not absolute compliance. So if you look at the federal SMART Office, the Sex offender management apprehension registration tracking website, if you’re looking at the SMART website, they have these these compliance packages of what they recommend you do and to be substantially compliant. There’ll be states who have not adhered to the letter of it or some things that they’ve done are not Exactly what the the AWA standards would would prefer, but they don’t substantially disserve the purpose. So they go ahead and leave that state substantially compliant. But you can go beyond that. And that’s where so many people get confused. They say, Well, my crime under AWA standards is only a tier one. I say that is correct, but the state of Florida made it lifetime, but they’re violating federal law. No, they’re not they they have received a recommendation from the feds, that if you want to be deemed substantially compliant, you need to have these offenses in this small universe has to be a lifetime. But they’ve chosen to broaden the universe to include more offenses lifetime, that’s not a violation of federal law. That is, they’ve merely exceeded federal law, but there’s no violation

Andy 1:11:47
to bring it back to the civil regulatory scheme, and you’re going to fill in some gaps for me that so I’m assuming the federal transportation highway, whatever the people that make like the Federal Highway rules, they They say that you can have your highways have a 70 mile an hour speed limit. But I think like in the 90s, or 2000, Utah may have like said, well, we’re not going to have a speed limit on these pathways or these interstates between these two areas, would that have then made them not substantially compliant? And they would have had less funding come from the federal government for the roads?

Larry 1:12:20
That would be correct. And that’s exactly what happened and the older listeners we have when when we had the Arab oil oil embargo in the early 70s ‘73, I believe would be very early ‘74. When the embargo hit, the National speed limit was was recommended to be 55 because the clunkers that we drove in those days, supposedly ran more efficiently at 55 than they did at 75. Because people were driving those eight cylinder muscle cars in those days

Andy 1:12:49
12 cylinders man

Larry 1:12:51
And the states that chose not to do it risked forfeiture of their highway funds because the feds really could not regulate with inside the state What what the speed limits were but it’s a strong encouragement if you have to build and maintain your own roads. And that’s what happens with all this stuff. The federal government has the power of the purse, because as we’re learning in this pandemic, if we didn’t already know it. You can print 24/7. And now since we don’t even print 24/7, we just create electronic entries for cash. The feds can run budget deficits that apparently no one cares about. But the states don’t have those unlimited options. So therefore, states are very dependent upon all the federal money or at least they perceive they are. So a lot of things that states adopt if you were to be a part of your legislative process, you would see time after time, whether it be for something for children or whether it be domestic violence, they’ll say well, because federal guidelines. With schools, that we have to just because to comply with federal guidelines, we’re going to we’re going to lose money for special ed if we don’t do this, and that’s just the reality of what happens. Now, you can always say we’re going to suck it up and we’re going to pay higher taxes and we’re going to tell the feds to go you know what. You can do that. K through 12 education, typically most school administrators tell me that that the Federal portion amounts to somewhere between 8% and 10% of the budget. But usually that money is earmarked for particularly needy children with with with special needs and it would decimate those programs. But you could say Well, sorry, we just don’t like the rules that you’ve applied and we’re gonna take care of ourselves and you can, you can shove your funds and then the feds have no more say about it cuz it’s their funding that that gives them the control

Andy 1:14:34
because we have 50 Well, it’s 50 plus territories plus other things and other entities but we have 50 states that are like 50 individual little countries with this federal umbrella. It’s a really hard concept to like grasp i think but Georgia is not Florida is not Mississippi is not Alabama is not New Mexico like they are their own entities and your governor is the president of your of your little country.

Larry 1:14:59
That is That is correct. And the federal government has gotten larger than what I think the founders would have been visualized. But the founders could not see out 200 something years in terms of how society would evolve, but but in those days, I think if you could resurrect those people, they would be very shocked at how much the federal government is intertwined in daily life now, but that’s the reality of life. We’re not going to turn that clock back.

Andy 1:15:22
Okay. And we just covered so what the punishment is for them is that they would receive less funding by not being substantially compliant. Can we move over to the tier structure that I know that Georgia has a tier structure that kind of sort of doesn’t really exist? Like if you’re one of the high-risk ones you count, but if you’re a level one or two, I don’t know what the difference is. Other than that, you can get off the registry if you’re level one. Like that’s the only difference that I actually know of. But a bunch of states don’t even have tiers, I think.

Larry 1:15:52
Well, and there therein lies the confusion because prior to the Adam Walsh Act, states, more states had risk-based models meaning that regardless of your underlying offense, was that how you were treated on the registry had to do with an individualized risk assessment. In Ohio, for example, they did it in the courts and other states. They did it through a process. Arkansas still has a process. Oklahoma had a process a number of states had processes that that assigned a person an individualized analysis was the the AdamWalsh Act said, we really don’t want that we want an offense based system. So when you hear the term tier, you confuse it often if you’ve lived in or if you do live in a state where they do a risk based system you associate that with risk but that’s not the Adam Walsh Act. It has no intention of conveying anything to you about the offender other than their length of registration. That’s all a tier is okay. It’s not a risk-based thing. And so when you hear when you hear tier, don’t think of risk because they’re two separate thing The basic structure of the Alan Walsh Act is crimes or misdemeanors or carry a punishment of a year or less, are tier one. Unless the target victim is a minor. crimes that are felony level offenses carrying a year or more, that don’t involve a victim under 12, or 11. I always get this year mixed up. And they don’t involve violence. And they define violence. It’s not just because you name it violence, but if it’s if it’s a victim or violent, it can, it can trigger a tier three designation. But otherwise, that’s a tier two. A tier one, under the federal standards is a recommendation of 15 years, which five years can be reduced. If you don’t pick up any offenses of a felony level that carry more than a year and you complete treatment and probation. You do not have to file a petition. Contrary to the folks in California that created this elaborate get rich scheme for the lawyers. You Do not have to under the Adam Walsh Act to file a petition, you just simply time out. Tier two offenses are 25 years, there’s no early petition. After 25 years, you simply time out. Tier three is lifetime. And tier three, you do not timeout until you die. And then you do timeout, they do not require you to register anymore. Once you die, you’re relieved of all reporting obligations and updating at that point. And tier three is recommended four times a year in-person visits to your tier two is recommended twice a year and tier one is recommended once a year, you can require all the offenders to come in four times a year in some states have done that, because you’ve at least met the minimum. If you’ve got everybody required to come in four times a year. People say well, Larry, don’t you understand? I’m a tier one. And I have to go in four times here and I said, sure I understand it completely. And that was your state’s prerogative. They’re breaking the federal law. No, they’re not. They just simply adopted standards more rigid than what the feds recommended.

Andy 1:19:08
I pulled this one out just because it seems super interesting to me, especially in light of the Oklahoma Supreme Court decision that sort of orbits around PFR. But suppose you are in a Native American tribe, tribal land, and that spans multiple states. How would the various states impact your how all this would apply to you? Does only the tribal thing applies, so like, you’re just under the tribal law, like a federal law kind of thing or two? Like how do you split the difference between the two states?

Larry 1:19:42
Well, it’s a good question. And the answer is more simple than than what you’d imagine. If they it, but it is, it is a good question. So the the tribes are independent nations. Okay, so, so their territory for SORNA purposes. So we’ll assume for a moment that you never left the reservation. Okay, you would be subject to its laws and the State of New Mexico would have no control over you. Because, yes, we have Indian territory in the state, but we don’t have any jurisdiction.

Andy 1:20:12
Sort of like Puerto Rico. (Larry: yes) you could plot Puerto Rico in the middle of Texas, Puerto Rico’s is it’s own thing.

Larry 1:20:18
And so the so what if you if you stayed exclusively on the reservation, if they have a registry and I think by now they all do, you would you would be subject to their loss. Now, if you cross jurisdictional lines, for example, says there’s so much unemployment, a lot of people who live on on Indian reservations end up working off the reservation. So if you were to do something off the reservation, where you were actually in a state and becoming employed to carry on a vocation or going to school or you know, things that trigger so you could find yourself having to register in the state of New Mexico and having to register with the Indian nation because they both have jurisdiction. But if you stayed entirely on Indian Land, you wouldn’t be subject to anything other than Indian law because they’re their sole sovereign.

Andy 1:21:07
And I think another way to word This is going in the inverse direction. If you commit a crime on a military base, you’re now crimes are now federal, even though you’re still sitting it you know, you just stepped on base. I sat on a jury trial with a woman that shoplifted at the exchange. And I was like, she shoplifted a $20 video, and it’s a federal offense, because it was on federal land.

Larry 1:21:28
And it’s tragic because the penalties were so much more harsh.

Andy 1:21:32
Yeah, we’re not that at that part. But I bet she got she got messed up from that one. Let’s move over to the internet side of this whole thing, because because to me personally Larry like this is the worst. Like, you know what I was talking with someone in chat while we were recording. And he was talking about, well, I used to have to go in every three months, but it’s the internet that messes everybody up. I you know, going in and visiting the police every year like it’s a pain in the ass, but it’s not that bad. It’s the internet thing that now all your neighbors Everything that you did, what is required versus not required versus prohibited, like so I helped compile somewhat of a list that we can bat around. Some places have your employer’s address some places just, like full on, like they have all the tattoos and all that stuff. Can you help us decipher what is required on the website versus what’s not?

Larry 1:22:24
Well, that would be the best place to go would be to the to the, to the SMART Office website, because I don’t I don’t have all that memory at my at my fingertips. But the, for the AWS compliance states, they do want to see the employer address listed. And, and that’s one of the requirements. In fact, that’s one of the shortcomings in Nebraska. They don’t do that they went so hard in 2009 to become AWA compliant. And they were sold a bill of goods by the by the law enforcement industrial complex, telling them that as long as they did substantial compliance that’d it’d be close enough. That was one thing they didn’t want to do, because businesses had presented themselves and said we don’t want to have our locations listed. So they respond to that. And also there’s a great concern around the country regarding juvenile registration. So the Nebraska assembly didn’t want to register juveniles. So they, they screwed the adults and they went to the 15, 25 and life program that they also had a risk basis. Another state that used to do risk based. And, and they went the offense-based system, but they didn’t get their prized possession, which was a wi compliance. Okay. And, but but in terms of what’s required on the internet, there’s far too much required In terms of disclosure. It’s way more than what it’s related to the conviction. It’s it’s, it’s for where you where you work, where you live, the vehicles you drive. All that stuff is required. The, the the statutory text of what your offense was, they’re at least supposed to link to it so the person can find out what you did. The persons will read the the offense under the code and say, well gee, that person is really creepy because they did this. Those are the basics but it’s far too expensive. And they can go beyond that the only things that are really prohibited to be disclosed are victim’s identity and social security numbers. And I think that’s about it for the offender there’s a very narrow list of stuff they cannot disclose.

Andy 1:24:24
Yeah, victim’s name your social, non-conviction arrests, and passport info.

Larry 1:24:30
Yep. So it’s, it’s, it’s not much.

Andy 1:24:33
What I found super funny is in there. It says, Well, what about email addresses and phone numbers, posting phone numbers and email addresses of PFRs on public websites, in the same manner as other information is problematic. And I was like, Yes, they thought hard about this one, and they’re saving us. It says the public availability of this type of information could allow PFRs to network with one another. Seriously? That’s what we’re going to do? We’re going to set up the biggest trip trafficking ring that we could come up with we’re gonna get all like, no. Oh my god that is so ass backwards in there thinking, I don’t understand this one.

Larry 1:25:10
Well, I think I’ve read that before it would allow for networking. But first of all, if they had actually bothered to, to invade and exploit the knowledge they can find about sex offenders do not tend to network very much. That’s why we’re fighting the battle we are after all these years with the membership roles and the income level what it is because there’s there’s a hesitancy to network and I’m not able to explain that. But but there’s a whole lot of reasons why you wouldn’t want to post people’s phone numbers I mean the same reason you wouldn’t want post anybody else’s phone numbers for for, for marketers, and unscrupulous people to exploit these people and somehow or another they get their numbers anyway because people get phone calls all the time. being threatened with arrest. Matter of fact, I got a call just this past week, from one of our more intelligent people. That really is on the ball here. And he took off in a panic because he said that that, that he wasn’t gonna go pay the money that they wanted him to pay. And that they said they’re on their way. And he said just to be on the safe side, he went to a safe location and called me I said you could go back to where you were, they’re not coming to arrest you. But but the testing that that’s the downside of how it see rather than networking. Instead, it would set people up for exploitation

Andy 1:26:26
that exposes the other angle of those scam calls of that has to be somebody that has access to those records in bulk. Like they’re looking them up and dumping them out to get them because they’re calling everybody in every state. They’re making hundreds and hundreds of phone calls per week to entrap these people.

Larry 1:26:46
Well, that’s puzzled me because it’s it’s puzzled me because since we’ve largely got past the landline being the primary communication, which was published unless you paid money not to have it and I’m not as savvy as somebody In terms of getting information, but but people are apparently able to figure out who the registrants are, and they’re able to convert that to a phone number. Now, there may be, that may be easier done than I realized. But I think I’m pretty savvy and I have a hard time trying to convert trying to trying to find cell phone numbers. So how are they doing that? How are they calling? How are they doing that? I’d like to know.

Andy 1:27:24
I can only come up with it with an inside job on that one.

Larry 1:27:30
Now, you are, you’re suggesting that someone in the law enforcement community being as dedicated and as honest as they are, that someone be it a sworn officer or civilian support person would actually engage in a transaction to allow this to happen? you’re suggesting that?

Andy 1:27:56
I’m afraid so because I really because I have been called and my number does not show up anywhere that I have tried to scope out so I don’t know how they would have gotten my number if not for having some sort of inside connection.

Larry 1:28:11
Well, that’s very troubling.

Andy 1:28:12
Yep. Um, what about when they say you have X number of days upon arrival on the within the domicile like Ohio’s listing is so vague that like by the time you have such and such amount of time from the time that you set up temporary domiciled, like, Oh my god, where did these requirements come from?

Larry 1:28:33
From the from the state?

Andy 1:28:35
But what about the SORNA side of it?

Larry 1:28:40
Well, I don’t recollect that there’s that there’s a particular amount of time that you I mean, the general rule in SORNA is three days on everything they’re trying they’re trying to get, they’re wanting to shorten the windows to three days for initial registration, and for changes of information. And therein lies the problem. Because when you when you’re When you’re temporarily in a state, you may not be doing anything that would trigger a SORNA duty to register. The duty to register is triggered by an attachment to the state by occupation, or by becoming a resident or becoming a student, if you’d looked at the guidelines and being temporarily present, it’s not something that’s necessarily covered per se. But the states, as time has gone by, have they’ve they’ve adapted, adopted these practices of, well, we should have something that covers these. So if they if there’s nothing in their statutory scheme, that’s clear, administratively they create it and invent it.

Andy 1:29:37
where I’m going with that one is like Florida, it’s 48 hours. I think it might be the county but I thought it was like crossing the state line, you had 40 hours or you have to be then out before the 48 hours before you’d have to register. But the SORNA document says that you have three days from you know, three days to register from a change of address or anything like that, where you before you’d have to register.

Larry 1:29:59
Well, but see you You haven’t clarified what you’re doing in Florida, are you going to the if you’re going to Florida for the purpose of establishing a connection by employment or by residence, or by school, then you’re going to come within a zone of SORNA enforcement, you’re going to have to have a Florida duty a register of just simply navigating through the state doesn’t necessarily trigger a duty to register. In many states. In some states. It does, but not in all.

Andy 1:30:24
I mean, like when you because to make it to Key West, you need you need 12 hours to get from the top to the bottom, and then another handful of hours to get to Key West.

Larry 1:30:33
So well, let’s just take a look, for example, at the Colorado skim because I pulled it in Dropbox and we’re going to send it to that questioner but but Colorado has a provision that’s very clear, in terms of big, big physically present 14 days or more in terms of what triggers a duty to register. So since I got to scroll through 59 pages, you can keep you can keep talking while I’m finding

Andy 1:31:01
Yeah. But again, I’m just trying to highlight so that we have the ala carte method of the SORNA statute from the wonderful federal government. And the states have decided to pick and pick and choose of what they want to then apply. And that’s where you would get a Florida 48 hours or you get Georgia is either seven or 14 days. I never am quite clear on which one is which. And, you know, it may be in Vermont, you can be there for like six or nine months or something and you don’t have to register because they’re there. You know, it’s basically no registry up there. And I’m saying that tongue in cheek don’t don’t send me hate mail. I’m just being silly.

Larry 1:31:36
You’re going to get hate mail from because they if you’ve only registered in Vermot it’s awful as far as you’re concerned. I know. Because Because you haven’t registered in the states where it really is awful. So as far as they’re concerned. (Andy: Did you find what you were looking for? I’m still praying about it.

Andy 1:31:55
Okay, um, can you answer this question while you’re still navigating is SORNA retroactive?

Larry 1:32:04
Well, in the when you say SORNA we’re still talking about federal right?

Andy 1:32:08
I yes. For this, we’re talking about federal.

Larry 1:32:12
Okay. It did not, it did not proclaim itself one way or the other. Congress did not say whether it was retroactive or not. They left the power to the Attorney General of the United States at the time, which was Alberto Gonzalez. And he decided that it was retroactive because Congress said it’s too complicated for us to figure out all the states have different constitutional frameworks. And if you can apply it retrospectively, we would like to see people have to follow these elevated standards. So therefore, when you say was it retroactive? No, it wasn’t initially. But the US Attorney General said yes, it’s retroactive to the extent it can be. But within the AWA within the sauna itself, there’s a provision that says that if The state’s highest tribunal rules that, that they can comply with a particular portion, then they will not be held to be punished, they will not be penalized for their noncompliance. So, so you’ve got that escape hatch that you don’t lose any of your precious money if the state’s highest tribunal says you can’t comply.

Andy 1:33:19
Okay. It said in the document says it. Yes, it is retroactive. SORNA applies to all registrants including those convicted of the registration offenses prior to the enactment blah, blah, blah, all those years before and all that.

Larry 1:33:34
I just want to say that the attorney general did say that to the extent it can be applied retroactively. I’m telling the state’s, Go ahead. Because you you can you can do it until you can’t. So therefore, what is so funny about that? (Andy: I just picked up on that because he could do it until they’re told to stop.) They can do it, as far as we’re concerned since it’s still a civil regulatory scheme, I’m decreeing there’s no problem with increasing the frequency and duration of registration. And then that set forth machinery to challenge and some states have said no our constitution, Maryland would be an example. They said we have a Declaration of Rights and there can’t be any disadvantages imposed retroactively. So therefore, Maryland is not able to comply so they don’t lose any of their their precious dollars because they can’t comply. their state’s High Court won’t let them comply with with apply these elevated standards to people whose crimes predated that, but now people act as if somehow that created the registry. Remember this passed in ’06. Every state every state had registries way before ‘06, which means you still had a registration obligation. It’s not as if this created a registration obligation for most people, most people whose crimes predated the AWA already had a registration obligation. So, so even if they. So even if they can apply the enhanced version, that doesn’t stop them from, from applying the previous version, that that was enforced at the time that you committed your crime. So that doesn’t give you a walk away, get out of jail free card. And that’s what people misunderstand. And what it what it what it does did do was it created a federal crime if you if you travel the interstate commerce, and the way they enforced it initially was that they went out and looked for all the people who were missing and they prosecuted them federally, and that was deemed unconstitutional, because that could not be applied retroactively. It was not a crime to have traveled in interstate commerce at the time you traveled, and we’ve had a plethora of decisions on that issue. So the travel the way the language of the statute reads, who a person who travels in interstate commerce, it does did say traveled or has traveled it said travels. So after this became effective, and after the after the Attorney General pronounced that it was retroactive, all the travel that took place from that from that rule forward is subject to prosecution. But if you previously traveled, the feds couldn’t prosecute you. And that has caused a lot of consternation because people who had traveled although the feds couldn’t prosecute them, they still had a duty when they traveled from Georgia to Maryland, Georgia had a registry and so did Maryland. So that didn’t preclude Maryland from prosecuting them under under state law so that we I think we even talked about a case like that where the person I think Maryland was even involved there. But that’s not to get out of jail free card itself, because you can be prosecuted under state law even though the feds couldn’t prosecute you under their fancy tool.

Andy 1:36:46
I’m thinking it’s Gundy isn’t it?

Larry 1:36:49
No, I don’t think maybe it was. Maybe it was okay, but Colorado, temporary resident. So temporary resident means a person who is a resident of another state but in Colorado temporarily because the person is employed into state on a full time or part time basis with or without compensation for more than 14 consecutive business days, or an aggregate period of more than 30 days in a calendar year or enrolled at a type of educational institution of the state on a full part time basis, or present in Colorado for more than 14 consecutive business days, or for an aggregate period of more than 30 days in a calendar year for any purpose, including but not limited to vacation travel or retirement. Now, if we were going to hold a conference in Colorado, this would be one of those where we could actually point to the statute and say you’re being overly paranoid because it says clearly that unless we’re going to have a 15 day conference that you’re not covered. So Colorado, here we come.

Andy 1:37:49
Very good. Is there anything else that you would like to tack on on that I did not come up with a question for you regarding SORNA

Larry 1:37:57
I think you did a fantastic job.

Andy 1:38:00
Go me and I’m gonna I’m gonna stress out my shoulder from patting myself on the back for the next 20 minutes. But you know what we can pat ourselves on the back for Larry we got two new patrons this week. We got a Tom and Jake. And I can’t thank you guys enough bottom of my heart all the way if you want to come in and listen to the live stream you now have those privileges and you’re going to get Patreon extras and all that so thank you very much.

Larry 1:38:25
Well, we also had some increases in patronage.

Andy 1:38:29
We did we also had a Brent increase his so that he can get the the transcription service which were you’re going to talk about for a moment. The what’s the transcription service?

Larry 1:38:39
The transcription service is that we’ve received so many inquiries about prisoners saying that that every time they asked their Warden, if they could listen to the podcast, they’re denied. (Andy: I’m sure that that happens all the time.) And I can’t understand why a warden would deny you access to listen to this podcast, but Cuz I think we’re very generous to the to the, to the prisons in terms of what a difficult job but I think I’ve been complimentary to warden on various occasions. But anyway, we tried to devise a way to get the podcast to people. So we’re going to offer the podcast of people who patron whose patrons support is $15 a month or more. And we will mail a printed transcript to them. Hopefully every Friday, which will run about a week late before they get it, they’ll they’ll receive it on Monday or Tuesday, which will be about a week after it actually released. And we sent out our first batch of five this past yesterday. As a matter of fact, we sent out five and one of them was for standard the others for people that have come about because they have been requested through the program. So if you want that if you’re already at that level, you’ve got to get the word to us. We won’t assume that you just because you’re at $15 or more a month that you have someone that you want to receive it. You have to tell us and you have, give us their address and inmate number is if you’re writing to them, and then we can put them on the list. (Andy: Yep.) But right now, right now, we don’t know until you tell us you’d like for someone to receive the transcript

Andy 1:40:11
indubitably. I think that about wraps everything up Larry.

Larry 1:40:16
I love my picture of this week.

Andy 1:40:19
Oh, yeah. What’s the same one I used last week. It’s that it’s that picture of you when you were in office looking all regal with your Lincoln guy.

Larry 1:40:27
You know, that was that was back about a long time ago. That was back in the 1860s.

Andy 1:40:30
You were still a young man, then?

Larry 1:40:33
Well, I want to challenge, I want to issue a challenge. If someone can tell me who that is. If I haven’t already said it on the podcast. I want to find out. Find out what people know about history. If anybody can figure out who that picture is. And you should be able to do it. There’s a well I’m not gonna tell you how to do it. They’d do it even faster. But there should be a way to figure out who the picture is. (Andy: I gave enough clues just now.) Yeah. So all right. We’ll see who gets it first.

Andy 1:41:02
All right, and are you going to give them a prize?

Larry 1:41:05
I’ll think of something.

Andy 1:41:07
Okay. Well, Larry, we record the show usually live on Saturday night 7pm. Eastern, you can join the discord server if you’re a patron. But if you can’t listen live, you can always do so on demand, which is the whole point anyway, to listen on demand. We want to make this available to you at your convenience. If you would do me a favor and subscribe and doing this is a favor to you in your favorite podcast app like Google or Apple or Stitcher or pocket casts or overcast or whatever. And even on YouTube, by subscribing, you do two things: you make sure you’ll get you’ll get the episode, the minute we post it, it’ll come right down to you on your device. And you’ll have plenty of time to listen to it on your Tuesday morning commute, which probably is kind of pointless to say now because nobody’s commuting anywhere. But you’ll send a signal to those apps that they should, they should recommend that to other people that may have a similar profile. And you’re telling them that other people listen to the show and that maybe they can discover it But also over at registrymatters. co you can find the show notes, you can find transcriptions and it gets every um, and and that’s in there, and it’s just like reading it, but you’re listening. And you can find it over registermatters.co that’s where you can find the show notes and voicemail. You can find it (747)227-4477. Larry, what’s the email address? Quick, quick, quick, quick,

Larry 1:42:22
very carefully. registrymatterscast@gmail.com.

Andy 1:42:26
And like the other two people plus the increase, they supported us on Patreon. How can they How can they find us on Patreon?

Larry 1:42:35
Oh, that’s patreon.com/registrymatters. (Andy: Beautiful) and since there is a phase two of the stimulus checks coming out as soon as the political process comes to an agreement but they’ve agreed on that component. every adult is going to get 1200 dollars we will make that option available. Have you got a 1200-dollar option up on there yet?

Andy 1:42:56
I should probably put that but you know, you could just you could even put it as $1 And then you could just increase the bid to 12.

Larry. 1:43:03
Could Do what?

Andy 1:43:04
You could just come in at $1. But you can adjust the amount you can pick the level and then you can change the amount of money.

Larry 1:43:11
I see. All right.

Andy 1:43:12
Well, you could say that you want to be a $1 person, which would get you most of the benefits. And then you could just change the number to 1200 bucks.

Larry 1:43:19
Yep so I’m looking forward to some of those with the second round of staples payments are released.

Andy 1:43:25
When are we getting that money? I have some shopping to do.

Larry 1:43:28
Well, it’s hard to say for sure. But the treasury department should be very much better equipped to do it now that they’ve done the first Direct Payments we’ve had in a long time and they should be they should have people’s current information. So once it’s approved and signed by the president, it should be pretty quickly but then I think the bulk of people have within 30 days.

Andy 1:43:49
Okay. I mean, are we getting that in August? Do you think or is it like September?

Larry 1:43:55
Well, if if the if the if the resolution comes in August, they could probably start making payments in September, if they come to agreement. But the House and the Senate have significantly different versions. So there’s a lot of negotiation to do because of the differences between what what has been put forward in the Heels act versus the Heroes Act.

Andy 1:44:18
those names those names are crazy. Larry, thank you. As always, thank you to everybody in chat. And I hope that you all have a fantastic rest of your weekend. And I will talk to you soon Larry.

Larry 1:44:30
Thank you. Good night.

Andy 1:44:31
Good night.
did have registrymatters@gmail.com and I lost it. Did I ever tell you that?

Larry 1:22:03
Well, why don’t you do a reset?

Andy 1:22:05
I tried it like, Hey, what’s the most recent password and I didn’t set up enough recovery stuff, so it’s just gone. So that’s how it’s registry matters cast because I’m an idiot. So

Larry 1:22:15
the best way to support us if you are so inclined is patreon.com/registrymatters or just patreon.com. And you can search for all your favorite podcasts, including Registry Matters.

Andy 1:22:27
There’s only one podcast that matters at Patreon. And that’s Registry Matters that I can assure you. Larry That is all I have on this fine Saturday night. Anything else before we head out?

Larry 1:22:39
I’m done.

Andy 1:22:41
All right, man. Well, have a great night and I will talk to you soon. Take care everybody. Good night.

Larry 1:22:45
Good night, everybody.

 


Transcript of RM137: Pennsylvania Supreme Court Denies SORNA Challenge to Whitmayer & Lacombe

Listen to RM137: Pennsylvania Supreme Court Denies SORNA Challenge to Whitmayer & Lacombe

Andy 0:00
Registry Matters is an independent production. The opinions and ideas here are that of the hosts and do not reflect the opinions of any other organization. If you have a problem with these thoughts, fyp.

Andy 0:12
Recording live from FYP Studios, east and west transmitting across the internet. This is Episode 137 of Registry Matters. What’s up, Larry? Happy Saturday yet again. How are you?

Larry 0:23
Well, thank you and we have a full house tonight I can see.

Andy 0:27
we do we have a pretty good crew. And just for point, I made it so that if you’re if you’re a patron that you can get into the live stream, I locked it out of just anybody random drive bys. Come in and listen to it so that I just wanted to kind of solidify one of the benefits of being a patron is listening and participating in the live stream chat stuff.

Larry 0:47
So that’s why we do we only have half as many tonight as (Andy: Correct.) have had in the past.

Andy 0:53
Correct. But I’m just always looking for ways to actually offer up the value of becoming a patron which we’re going to While we’re recording this tonight, there will be a drop out where we’re going to go record a Patreon extra. So if you’re not a patron and you would like to hear the extra, you should go over to Patreon.com/registrymatters and sign up to be a patron for as little as $1 a month and then you could participate in getting the patron extras that we’ve been doing lately.

Larry 1:20
And you get to engage with a couple of quacks before and after the recording

Andy 1:25
there would be that though I think I’m going to outsource my quack to have somebody else represent on my behalf. (Larry: Oh, who would that be?) I don’t know. I’ll have to just find some other quack someone of your quality caliber of quackery

Larry 1:40
shouldn’t have any problem finding a quack of that caliber.

Andy 1:44
Larry, I got a question. Being me and someone inside of the discord chat. We started talking about term limits for politicians. And I hear people rail against that. Oh, these people been in it for 20, 30 years. Blah Blah. Blah. And just just to tie this over, someone mentioned on the podcast all this has gotten to, on YouTube, that this has gotten too political. And maybe the better term would be too partisan maybe. But like everything about what we’re doing is politics oriented. So I don’t want to like throw that we should never talk about politics in general. But sometimes politicians like Mitch McConnell’s been there for 1000 years, and Nancy Pelosi has been there for 1000 years. Chuck Schumer has been there for 1000 years. Shouldn’t we have term limits for Congress if we have term limits for el president de?

Larry 2:41
Well, that’s an issue. I think I want to backtrack just a little bit about the podcast because we’re not partisan at all here. It may be perceived that way. But we we don’t we don’t endorse a particular side. I tell you what my political affiliation is but I bash my side when they’re wrong. And I do that with some regularity, I’m about public policy. So I kind of take a little issue with us being partisan we we we look at the policies were strictly attacking bad public policy. That’s the whole point of this podcast. But in terms of the the whether there should be term limits, and the literal sense of the word there, of course, there, there are term limits they are, they are a result of the elections that are held every two years, every four years, every six years, as the case may be for US senators, it’s every six years, for US House of Representatives, every two years, for most governors, it’s every four years. And in state legislatures, it’s usually some variation between two and four and a few exceptions, six years but there there there are those term limitations. what what what you do when you have and I’ve done an evolvement in my thinking, as I’ve aged, I used to feel the same way I felt that that the term limits would be properly, It would be it would be better if we had term limits. And, and my my analysis was flawed at the time. We, I guess I think I heard someone on one of the news channels talking about people that that made a career out of public service. They make bad decisions. But that doesn’t mean you want to turn it over to amateurs. He said, people who fly commercial airplanes professionally, they make bad decisions, and sometimes we have catastrophic, catastrophic consequences. But that doesn’t mean you want to put an amateur in the cockpit does it? (Andy: Nope.) Okay, well, surgeons who are very highly trained, they make mistakes. And sometimes those mistakes are in fact catastrophic. But that doesn’t mean you want an amateur. That doesn’t mean you want an amateur as a surgeon, and with with what people refer to as politicians, they prefer to be called a public servant. But in reality, they are politicians. You have to be able to convince at least 50% plus one, that you’re that you’re the best choice of the choices they have. And that requires appealing to people’s desires that because you’re representative of a group of people, and and but but you if you turn this over to if you when you have term limitations, I’d like for the person who believes in that to cite me a state where they have them at the state level, Nebraska would be one example where they have them, and tell me that you think Nebraska is so much better governed than any other state and pick a state that has term limitations where that they can only serve a fixed amount of time tell me that you feel that that government is so much better? Because of the term limitations because what you have when you do that, particularly at the state level, it wouldn’t be as pronounced at the federal level. But at the state level, what you have is you have the unelected bureaucracies that decide what happens because when you take a person who’s been in just a regular job, and they just decide to run for the legislature because there’s a seat open. And they have never been in government. But they they want to make their first run for public office as a state senator and in Nebraska, they don’t have any idea how those agencies work. They don’t have any idea what the powers of those agencies are. Government is very complicated these days, we deal with issues that were never imagined when the founding fathers developed the idea for this for this representative Republic we have. Nobody was thinking about the Clean Air Act, nobody was thinking about all the things that we talked that that governments at various levels provide today. We’re talking about complex things, things that even I don’t understand. And I’m as informed as the average voter and I don’t understand all the issues that our state legislators deal with. So what you end up with, when you don’t have any institutional knowledge, you have the the the bureaucrats that are making all the decisions and if that’s what you want, that’s what you You end up with when you have termed limitations where you have constant rotation and no institutional memory, no institutional knowledge.

Andy 7:08
Can you dig into that just a little bit? So you’re telling me that the bureaucrats would be making the decision. So can you tell me what is a bureaucrat in that in that context?

Larry 7:21
Well, well, when when, when you when you contact a state senator in this state, who’s been around for a while, who’s who’s seen various administrations come and go. They know how the Department of Corrections is funding, what is what how its funded, what its mission is, and what its powers are. Will you take the person who’s never been in public office before and they have the best of intentions, I’m not knocking that, but when they come in with no understanding of that institution, and what its powers are what it can do, it’s a lot easier to have Regina deciding and Regina is the lady that we use pejoratively because she works at the Department of Public Safety and she makes all the decisions regarding the sex voter registration in New Mexico. You end up with Regina telling when a senator call, a brand-new Guppy, Senator calls and says well what’s the deal with this? Regina can tell that Senator anything she wants. (Andy: Okay) And that Senator does it doesn’t know any better. And when Regina says it has to be this way, then that person those no different or you could take it into something to do with childcare and protective services. If the person has no institutional knowledge of Child Protective Services, they end up when they said, Well, we have to pass this law because this is what’s required. Because this is the way it’s done. You don’t understand all of that. And you end up with people who have no institutional knowledge of why things are done, the way they’re done, and what the limitations are. And you end up deferring to a person who’s been a career bureaucrat working in the agency telling you, the elected official that it has to be this way because they’ve been there 26 years, and you just came on the scene today.

Andy 9:06
Doesn’t that also go the other direction of a politician then getting entrenched in and rubbing elbows with all the big powerful people, and then they’re not necessarily representing the people, but they’re representing their donors? And I don’t even know if I’m wording that the right way of who would be rubbing the elbows but just like it seems like that can go in a different direction. Special Interests, maybe is a better way to word that.

Larry 9:31
Well, I was going to get to that point that though there is absolutely no doubt that a person who’s been in office, has been in office for a long period of time has a significant advantage over the newcomer because contrary to what the cynics out there think people do not come to you and try to offer you money to persuade you to see it their way. What what happens is, after you’ve been in Office, they have analyzed your voting record you accessibility and your receptivity to persuasion in terms of issues, and they end up saying, we like this senator, we don’t agree with that or on everything, but this senator is right 75% of the time when it comes to issues that we support, or that we oppose. So you end up when, when the newcomer comes in with with no public service, they don’t have to, they don’t have the capacity to raise that money because the special interest, they’re going to fund a known versus an unknown. So I can sit back in an office where I work and wait for the checks to come in. And there’s no strings attached to the checks. They’re just simply looking at what the person has been doing, and what they’re what they’re happy with, and how accessible they are. And they make donations that but that doesn’t mean we we should scrap the whole system. That means we probably ought to take a look at how races are funded. (Andy: Right) which is a conversation we never get to have in this country. Because when you raise any of the options because the the Supreme Court’s ruling in Citizens United, you can’t you can’t limit an entity’s speech, at least not in federal races. Now, some states do have campaign limits, ours does have limits in terms of how much you can give in a particular election cycle. But when you start talking about maybe public financing, then people go, they go completely bananas and go into all sorts of convulsions when you talk about that. It’s kind of like the gun debate. You can’t have a discussion about how to solve this problem. How can we make the races more competitive, to take away some of the advantage that the incumbent has, without denying the citizens a choice? Now what you’re talking about doing as denying a citizen a choice of someone that they may be very happy to have stay in office. Is that democracy?

Andy 11:47
Definitely not. Definitely not. I just wanted to get the experts opinion on it because I don’t think that I I can see where the person has the issue with there being people that are there forever. But at the same, you know, the point you brought up about them having an understanding of how the system works. Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez, whose name is very difficult to say, brand new, doesn’t know how the system works yet. And I use her just to highlight just because she’s probably the most well-known freshmen. But she doesn’t know how the systems work where Mitch McConnell knows all the ways to manipulate the system is one better than the other one? And like, she needs to get her feet wet and know how the ropes work and so forth. But does she eventually end up in the pockets of the special interest groups? That’s where the person’s term limit idea would come in. But how do you how do you balance that out? And I think one of the answers would be to have just as much public transparency of where the money comes from and where it goes to and that’s where then the political action campaigns come in, because they don’t have to report anything, I don’t think because they’re private entities.

Larry 12:53
Well, they do they do in this state file reports in terms of who their donors are and who they give money to but but at the The federal level since I’m not working for anyone in the federal system, I don’t know what the disclosures, what all is required. But we do have a significant amount of transparency here. And we’re always looking for a way to enhance that transparency. And, and but having a government by amateurs just ask yourself about any other profession. Do you want those professions done by amateurs? And I think you can come to the conclusion: Government’s a very complicated business. We’re not living in the 17th, in the 1780s anymore. We’ve got issues that are very complex.

Andy 13:33
I completely understand. Hey, did you did you see the picture that super patron Mike sent us with the fyp compliance tank.

Larry 13:43
I did it I love it.

Andy 13:44
I just wanted to make sure that we noticed that it’s in the it might end up to be maybe it’ll be the show picture for this week’s episode. Anyway, there’s a picture of it over in the live stream chat if anybody wants to have a look at the fyp compliance tank and there’s a little subtitle under it says Sheriff department, making sure no emails go unregistered. It’s a very intimidating device that they could use to make sure that you’re compliant with all of your emails.

Larry 14:09
Well, you’re gonna, you’re gonna comply with registration or else .

Andy 14:13
Or else. we only have a few news items because we have some other super fun content to cover. But the first one is a homeless man jailed for failing to put address on sex offender registration dies at Rikers, this is from a publication called the city dot NYC. And, you know, like, there’s a lot of content here, but basically he failed to register he gets locked up under violation while he’s in jail, he ends up catching the COVID and then dies while struggling to breathe, which sounds like an unbelievably terrible way to die. And I think that that is incredibly cruel and an unjustified, unconscionable that this has happened.

Larry 14:51
It is tragic and we knew that there was going to be will be continue to be a lot of people that will lose their lives in correctional settings because of our unwillingness to take a look. The politics would be very bad to release a person like this because he failed to comply with putting his whatever, New York is somewhat lenient compared to other states in terms of compliance, but he failed to do whatever those steps were. And we just can’t have a person like that out on the street during a pandemic.

Andy 15:21
Unbelievable. Yeah. And like I said, I just I just wanted to touch on it just because it’s, it’s just really terrible.

Larry 15:26
And I think the article raised the issue about what sort of medical care he received and whether it was proper.

Andy 15:33
I mean, if he simply died from an asthma attack while laying in bed that sounds very minimal.

Larry 15:39
So well it says in April he tested positive but did not have the virus at the time of his death, according to so so I’m not real clear on the cause of death, but it’s still tragic that a regulatory scheme causes you to be jailed during a pandemic.

Andy 15:53
and then die from all that because I you know, I’m assuming that Yeah, on March 4, he was sent to Rikers. So he did not have the COVIDs when he went so we contracted it while gone. He, we could then make some level of presumption that he wasn’t, he didn’t, He wouldn’t have gotten it while he was on the street, perhaps.

Larry 16:16
So…

Andy 16:16
Um, I wanted to bring up though that I watched a movie last night. I think it’s called Most Wanted, it was very slow, but it’s about some Canadian drug dealing going on. And then somebody ends up in a Thai, a jail in Thailand. Dude, you don’t want to go to jail in Thailand. This is not if you think prisons the United States are bad. This is no joke there. They got like, just an open no bed, no floor or not no floor, just like maybe it’s a dirt floor. And 50 people and everybody’s just in leg irons, no separation, no personal property, nothing. So I just want to bring that up that there are certainly worser places to go.

Larry 16:54
Certainly That is true. People in the Latin American countries, particularly when You live in a border state like like mine you hear people that have been in jail in Mexico and various Latin American countries and and they they they don’t yearn to be in jail in the United States but they they they’re able to recognize that an American jail is preferable to almost any Latin American jail and again nobody wants to be there but when you when you do the comparison it’s it’s all relative when you when you’re, type of places that people get incarcerated and around the world which are which are medieval dungeons in many, many instances.

Andy 17:35
Yeah, this is not cool. All right, but then over at mynewsla.com sex offenders lose bid to serve on juries, Judge rules, all ex-felons don’t have to be treated the same. I never like when sentences are worded sort of like in a negative context. And that’s one of those ones where it’s they don’t want to not be like makes my head kind of hurt. But so I guess some some of our people PFRs wanted to serve on juries. And it didn’t go well for them in court.

Larry 18:08
That was I wasn’t able to find how to access the judge’s decision. But from the article here, it didn’t go well. And of course, there’s always appellate options. But, but it didn’t go well.

Andy 18:21
Why can you even like, just, like, get into the judge’s brain for a minute, why wouldn’t all ex felons be treated the same?

Larry 18:32
Well, because the law mandated different treatment. That’s why

Andy 18:35
Oh, geez. I mean, so in the law, then it would say that these people can’t serve on juries ever.

Larry 18:45
Well, I’m suspecting that like I said, without being able to read the decision, but I’m guessing that when they pass this, that restored the right to serve on juries, there’s always carve outs for people for the PFRs for the persons forced to register. And I’m guessing that that was the car About that they had to make a compromise so that anybody could serve on a jury. And the basis for the lawsuit was probably as you can’t treat there’s an equal protection clause, in the United States Constitution. So the argument would have been that, that, therefore, the all ex-felons should be treated the same. And this is the superior court judge saying no. The legislature mandated a separate equal treatment, but But like I say, with the opinion, I can be more precise, but yeah, sure. Well, we have an article here.

Andy 19:26
And and it does say like in the middle of the article says, however, the bill was later amended to target registrants by making them the sole class of persons excluded from that bill’s reforms. So I guess they did make a bill that allowed felons to serve on juries. But in the bill, they said negative ghostrider.

Larry 19:43
Yep. And that’s, I mean, it’s so is the will of the people as expressed through their legislative elected officials that we’re going to restore everyone’s right except for the people could have said no, we want we want everyone but they didn’t. They said we want everyone but

Andy 19:59
and I’m going to I’m going to hit you with this little softball and laws are presumed to be constitutional?

Larry 20:05
They are until the challenging party shows by the clearest of proof that they’re not.

Andy 20:10
clearest of proof. All right, so there is a non-victory for our people. But that probably was something that was kind of sort of doomed to fail from the start?

Larry 20:21
I don’t know, I’d have to look at and see if if each side would have would have cited case law that they thought supported their position. And this is a trial court level judge. So an appeal may be launched and and the depending on what the appellate court says in California, this battle may not be over yet. But the benefit of the doubt goes to the law because as the will was expressed to the people that they didn’t want fully to restore people’s right to serve on jury they did they did do a carve out so the question is can the people carve out what what rights they are restoring. If you have the right to vote, You have the right to serve on a jury Now see, I’m not sure that there’s a such a right. Oh, the voting is pretty much a right and I’ve always wondered how we could we could permanently disenfranchise people. But if there’s any such right to serve on a jury that there might be some, there may be some hope for an appeal on that issue.

Andy 21:20
Over at Ars Technica, Ajit Pai who is the FCC chair urges states to cap prison phone rates after he helped kill the FCC caps. Wait a minute, who, what, what is what Ajit Pai help kill the FCC caps and now he’s asking for them to be sort of reimposed?

Larry 21:39
Well, I think this is a good time to play Governor Maddox. Because the phone calls that my understanding is and this is not my area of expertise. But my understanding is once they cross state lines, only the feds can regulate them. And so the FCC after Obama left office, with the help of the business interests that provided phone services challenged that limitation that the Obama FCC had put in place on the cost of phone calls, and they won. So I think it’s a little bit of a little bit of hypocrisy here, to come back and say the states can do something, I’m not even sure that they have the power to do an interstate calls, clearly calls that originate and terminate within a state. The state regulators have control over those, but I’m not sure that the states can do anything about calls originating from outside their borders in terms of capping those prices.

Lester Maddox (Audio Clip) 22:38
For you to come back and call bigots my admirers is a farce. It’s an act of hypocrisy it’s a terrible way to treat a guest on your show and you know it.

Andy 22:46
Haha. So, so Okay, so as I understand it, and I was following this pretty close at the time, um, so, roughly in 2013, the FCC chair instituted something that puts some kind of caps on the cost of phone calls, that for me personally calls went from about 25 bucks a call out of state to four ish, maybe $5 a call, which was a huge boon. But I was released very shortly after everything actually kicked in. So it really didn’t ever impact me. And then we change administration’s A few years later. And that immediately goes away and calls, as far as state to state calls, probably go back to 25 or something bucks, I guess that would vary by state. And the reason why this happened is because the current administration appointed this, Ajit Pai, who is a former a big telecom company, lobbyist or executive, I forget which one he was like. So it just seems like hey, I don’t want this to happen away. Now. I don’t want this to happen because of the COVIDs.

Larry 23:52
Well, like I say, I don’t I don’t believe that the power exists for the states to to regulate that and it was the business interested challenge the regulation but the FCC could have continued to defend the regulation in court rather than saying we concede that this this is not something that we want to continue with this with this regulation. And so I think it is a little bit hypocritical now for him to be claiming that he wants something done when he could, could have and still could lead the charge at the Federal Communications Commission to limit what these companies are charging. But on the other hand, if you’re a pure capitalist, and you believe that companies who invest their money and to take in business risk, don’t you believe that the market should dictate the price? I mean, that’s kind of what capitalism is about. I’m just being devil’s advocate here.

Andy 24:41
Yeah, except for it’s not like you can go to the other phone on the other side of the dorm and have lower rates. So I mean, you know, you’re totally locked into the prison industrial complex as you like to call it. There’s no alternative other than to not make a call or suitcase a cell phone into the into the joint

Larry 24:58
but wouldn’t the prison Obviously make the decision to award the contract to the lowest bidder. They I mean, they wouldn’t have any incentive to do anything to the contrary, would they Andy?

Andy 25:08
Since they collect like, I don’t know, 50% of the revenue, wouldn’t they be incentivized to get the highest cost?

Larry 25:14
Of course, they would I’m being very facetious here. But but but those who believe in pure capitalism who claim that there should never be any regulatory oversight. We can cite example, after example, after example of this is where the big bad government has to be the oversight because there’s, there’s, there’s businesses where there really can’t be a true competition. And this is one you’re not going to be able to have true competition in correctional settings when you’re trying to monitor for security reasons and legitimate security reasons. You’re trying to monitor what’s, what’s going on in the way of communications. So you’re not going to have a true competition. It’s kind of like the electric company. We’ve tried to have competition inpower but in reality, there’s, there’s only one distribution. There’s only one distribution of power unless you self-distribute the power lines, somebody has to own the distribution.

Andy 26:12
And then our final article is going to be sex offenders can find hope in Christ, but not necessarily a place at church. I just wanted to, I just kind of wanted to like point out more hypocrisy that churches will often be places where they are trying so very hard to help people getting out of prison with maybe clothing or maybe some places to stay. But when it comes to our people that they are very often they are turning up turning up their noses at the PFRs. And it’s very, very sad, but I just wanted to highlight the article that I came across my way.

Larry 26:52
Well, I find that having having worked sort of in the church environment for some number of years, I find that sad, but as society has changed, churches have become a business and they have to run them like a business. Because the the liability issues that, that their insurers are telling them that they face if they, if they have too many people with this background and they know that they’re there and then something happens. The churches even that want to be more spiritual, what is it administering the spiritual needs of people forced to register, they find themselves in a conundrum and there are some who just flat out don’t want to they don’t want those yucky people as they would consider them. But there are churches who really are torn between the ministry and the business side of it of the liability that that their insurance has told them that you have and they end up in this predicament. And and I don’t know what the answer is because the big bad government shouldn’t be telling people who to have in their sanctuary but the big bad Government should not be prohibiting people from building their sanctuaries either. And we have that component where people are not allowed to go to churches who would welcome them, because they’re within 1000 feet or whatever the exclusion zone may be, or they have a daycare at which the government says that qualifies as a as a daycare, therefore, you can’t be there. That’s a place where children congregate, therefore, you can’t be there. So it’s a multifaceted problem. The church is a part of the problem. The church can also be a part of the solution, in terms of in terms of the governmental restrictions because I’d like to see the church fight back and say that’s our business who’s in our doors, not yours.

Andy 28:34
There’s a about three paragraphs in it says pastors and staff are trained to pay attention to new faces during one Sunday gathering before the pandemic they noticed a visitor intently watching children in the congregation. They met him learned his name and later found him listed on the sex offender registry. His Facebook page also turned up unsettling posts about children. I, could they have picked the worst kind of person to profile that 90, 95, 99% of the PFRs are probably just trying to get on with their lives and find a place where they can can do the worshipping how that they would want to. And they’ve decided to highlight the worst of the worst kind of person this could be related to. I don’t think that’s really fair. That’s cherry picking.

Larry 29:14
what it is, and that would be where, probably the author of this story should be, why don’t you report about the thousands of people who worship they do not stalk children or have any desire to do that. But this is this is what this is the angle the reporter took.

Andy 29:32
Yeah, no kidding. It is time for a question about the nuances of transferring supervision to a new state. So this comes from I don’t even have a name of a person how we’re going to cover this. How did we…

Larry 29:49
I could I could give you Well, this was written to NARSOL for a legal corner submission. And I liked it so much. I selected it. It’s going to run on the next issue of the NARSOL newsletter. And I feel like that this could be a big help to people out there because I think we’ve talked about interstate transfer at least twice in the history of the podcast, but we have new listeners, and we have people who forgot or didn’t completely understand it. So we can try to unpack it again in terms of Interstate transfer. But yeah, this came from this came from someone that submitted this question to, to us and I loved it. So So therefore, he won himself a free subscription to the newsletter. And and and we don’t put names we just say, an inmate wrote this, but but he gets a subscription for putting a good letter together that impacts more than just his situation. And that’s the same thing Justin did Justin asked a question that impacts him, but it also impacts anybody who has a Wisconsin conviction, who might have left Wisconsin, and it impacts anybody who might would want to be relieved of registration obligations, and it impacts anyone who might be traveling So that’s the type of thing that we like to give general responses to because it’s not unique to your situation, that it only impacts you.

Andy 31:10
All right, so transferring. I’m gonna like, I’ll throw the first one out there that what organization controls how you get transferred from state to state while you’re under supervision?

Larry 31:24
Well, if you say organization, I don’t know if there is an organization, but there’s a process. There’s an agreement among the states. It’s called the interstate compact for adult offender supervision. And there is a process prescribed which the states have agreed upon, that controls those transfers and those movements.

Andy 31:41
All right, and so so it’s just an agreement. And so then is there an office set up or at least like a person or persons in the states to handle the to’s and from’s?

Larry 31:53
Yes, there is. There’s the national office in Kentucky. I forget what city but there is the interstate compact for adult offender supervision, they do have administrative staff. And they there there is an office but they’re they’re far removed from the individual transfers, they are just simply the the entity that puts together the agreement in a readable form so that the Justice people there that are employed in the justice system can understand what to do. So they publish a bench book and the compact rules, and then they they they, they have a process where they have a dispute, and believe it or not, sometimes the states disagree about what the compact requires and a state will do something, deny something, or or violate the compact and the interstate compact commission as the entity but as far as the movement, each state has a compact administration office. So when you when you’re dealing with a correctional entity in each state, depending on the size of state, it’d be a very large operation or if you were smaller states like Wyoming you might not have but but but but a handful of people work in interstate compact, but the process really starts with your probation office if you’re in the community, or if you’re trying to leave a prison Correctional Facility, and these are all people who’ve got state convictions, we’re not talking anything about federal. These are state convictions. It starts with the offender approaching either their caseworker in prison, or they’re supervising PO to get the process started to make the application to be transferred to another state. You have no right to go to another state.

Andy 33:29
All right, well, that would that would preempt a question I have later but so I go to one of those two different or three different people and I say can I please have the paperwork that I need to fill out to get transferred?

Larry 33:41
Well, there’s really not any paperwork for you to fill out they do they do the bulk of it, the communication between interstate compact so the, the things all automated today, back in the old days, they would actually sit down and type up papers, but now they they key it into the computer into a system called icots and they they they submit it to the to the state and the process is all done electronically, there’s there’s guidelines in the interstate compact bench book that tells them what needs to be included in the packet in terms of the offender’s plan of supervision, their criminal history and conditions of supervision that are that are uniquely imposed on them. They have to understand where the proposed residents it is and and then they they’re allowed 45 days to investigate that request for transfer and get back to the to the requesting state. And and the requesting state doesn’t really control what the, they’re called the sending state in the state that makes the request has no real control over the state that where the request is submitted. That’s called the receiving state. The receiving state will determine if they wish to receive that offender.

Andy 34:46
So do you have any kind of arbitration if they if they deny you can you appeal?

Larry 34:55
I have not been able to unearth an offender process for an appeal and in fact, with our attorney Ashley, we were not able with the vast amount of research that she did to, to to unearth that process. It seems like there should be. But the interstate compact is relatively new. When I say relatively new, it’s less than 20 years old. And it replaced a much more relaxed compact agreement that was adopted in 1937, called the interstate compact for probation the ICPP. And, and the ICALS is relatively new. And there hasn’t been a tremendous amount of litigation in terms of what to do in the courts. They’re given guidance. The courts have been been known to duck these things, because they said, Well, that’s all interstate compact I don’t want to deal with that. And so there’s just a lot of case law in terms of what you would do, what rights you have. And that’s, that’s an area where the case law needs to develop in terms of if they turn you down. But, but in terms of our audience, on the people forced to register, you can assume that there’s going to be a bias against you as a person forced to register (Andy: And why would that be?) Well, I hate to answer a question with a question. But why would you want to take another state’s offenders that have committed this type of high-profile offense that has a heightened sense of community outrage? And why would you want that to be a risk on your watch? Wouldn’t you rather that Georgia keep their offenders? And if you have 100 offenders from another state that you’re supervising, and there’s a 3% recidivism rate, isn’t that pretty much guaranteed? You’re going to have some offenses that would have occurred in your state that won’t occur if you keep those people out.

Andy 36:31
Seems reasonable. I mean, it’s a NIMBY thing, not in my backyard.

Larry 36:35
That’s the reason I mean, and again, again, I’m not making this rule up. I’m just you asked me the question, why would they turn you down? That’s why they would turn you down because of the heightened community sensitivity. At about there will be some reoffense rate regardless of how low it is. And whatever number of offenders you have, that are required to register that you’ve allowed from another state. If that recidivism rate is as low as three percent which is number we tout around a lot, because you’ve got 300 offenders from from another state there, you’ve got you’ve got offenses that are occurring in your state that wouldn’t have if those people had not come to your state. Conversely, you’d logically want to get rid of just as many as you could that have those type offenses because you would want if if you can offload 100 of your offenders that have that type of offense, you’d rather them to be offending in another state, wouldn’t you? If you really are that afraid of recidivism? Would you want to offload as many as you possibly can? That’s what’s the fallacy of this this letter? Why don’t we just read his question, but that’s the whole fallacy of this because it will illustrate my point better. Let’s read his question.

Andy 37:38
Let me get back to it because I extracted the questions from it. Did you put it in dropbox, Larry? You did, right?

Larry 37:50
Yes. No I sent it to you by email. Never put it in Dropbox. Well, what kind of show prep Have you done?

Andy 37:58
clearly Not enough. I read the thing and I extracted out the questions of what I wanted to deal with.

Larry 38:07
So, I’ll, I’ll find it and read your question.

Andy 38:10
it. I got it. I got it. Alright. So you want me to just go from the start of it?

Larry 38:15
Yeah, it’s a short question.

Andy 38:17
Yeah, sure. I’m serving time in Tennessee and we’ll be getting out next year, and I’d like to return to my home in Georgia and take care of my aging parents. How can I find out what I need to do? If the entire process is cloaked in secrecy? I spoke with my caseworker and did not find the person truly knowledgeable regarding interstate transfers. Does our soul have some basic information on Interstate transfer of supervision for those in my situation? It is rumoured around the prison that I have to pay $150 for the privilege of applying to prison. Is this true?

Larry 38:51
Yes, in his case that that Tennessee does levy an outgoing application fee. That’s how they illustrate my point. If you believe recidivism is too high If you say that you believe it is, and you’re in the law enforcement apparatus, you would want to get rid of as many as you could. So if you, if you stop thinking about it, you’d want to waive that fee. And you’d want to put together the most beautiful application package you could possibly put together. And you’d want to get those people you’d want to get him down to Georgia, right? Because he’s the rest of the community of Tennessee. So why not haven’t been Georgia haven’t been arrest there? I mean, does that make sense? Sure. Sure, I made a steak this exact argument in reverse of why they don’t take people. If you don’t want to take people because they’re so dangerous, then logically, you’d want to get rid of as many as you could as quickly as you could. So, so yes, that some states charged an outgoing fee, and they charge that fee for their time in processing your application. And in the answer, right, I told him that he needs to consult and see if they have an emergent process where they can waive that fee in Tennessee. And I don’t know if they do or didn’t do that type of research, but some states don’t charge in some states charge a higher fee for one versus Since the other library probation is one fee, and parole, like be a different fee, but all that is on the interstate compact for adult offender supervisions website, there’s a there’s a link you can follow. And no prisoners are not going to be easily able to access that. But your family member can follow that link and find out what the fees are. But what state you want to transfer to find out because you could go bankrupt pretty quickly. If you’re $150 a pop to apply. And you you you want to make sure that you have done all the homework you can do before you apply because they may turn you down and then you’ve got to start that cycle all over again with a new proposed address.

Andy 40:37
The question that always perplexes me Larry whose rules do you follow? Do you do you follow the rules of the sending state or do you follow the rules of the receiving state?

Larry 40:49
Well, let’s clarify because that’s what seems to be the confusion. Are you talking about rules for supervision or rules for registration?

Andy 40:56
Yes. Which one I will We need to cover both because a person moving is going to have to follow the rules of state a and state B in some combination.

Larry 41:08
Well, when you’re on registration you when you’re registering, you’ve never follow the rules up to sending state your registry is always what the receiving state is.

Andy 41:17
So hypothetically, our 51st State has no registry at all you moved to that state, you wouldn’t have to register.

Larry 41:23
You wouldn’t have to register, that would be correct. Now. Now the question would be if we had a hypothetical state that didn’t have a registry since we don’t, what the sending state allow you to transfer because its members their option to allow you the privilege of transfer. If I’m looking at that state, and we have, we have 50 states and we have two states that don’t have a registry, and we hate you so much. We want you to suffer the humiliation registry, would we allow you to pull out of that state?

Andy 41:51
Then I guess the answer to that would be no that doesn’t that then introduce another element of it being punishment, Larry.

Larry 41:57
It does. But But in terms of of your of your question. If you go from Florida, to Vermont, right from what tells you to mail us your form once a year if you do your initial registration, and robot tells you that we’re going to cut you loose after 10 years unless you have multiple offenses. Florida has no say of that about that in terms of your registration obligation, if they transfer you to a robot, you’re registering in conformance with robots registration requirements, but Florida does have say over the conditions of supervision they impose on you all of those go with you to robot

Andy 42:31
and they also have to have whether they would let you transfer to Vermont if you went to a state that had some other similar shitty registration scheme, then they would say yeah, you can go there but you’re not going to Vermont, which is sort of not so bad.

Larry 42:45
Sort of not so bad the people ever bought think it’s awful because that’s all that I’m sure they you relate it to what you know, I mean, we’ve got a list are in New York that just thinks it’s horrible. And people would die to have New York’s registration. But but but him for a month, that would totally be The registration will be their obligations. Now Florida again, as we talked about earlier, they may not take you off their website. But Florida is out of the loop in terms of registration. But all the conditions that were imposed on you by either the judge or by the supervising authorities, those go with that packet to you for overbought. And under the compact, they’re obligated to enforce those. And if they cannot enforce those conditions, they’re supposed to notify the sending state that we are unable to enforce those restrictions. And then the syndic state can either remove them or they can deny that they can say well, we wish all the requests because those conditions have to go. But you do not get an advantage by going to another state. All of your supervision requirements are imposed on you go with you. If you’re worth $5,000 fine, you still owe the $5,000 fine. If you have 10 years of supervision and robot would have only given you two years for that offense. You have 10 years of supervision. It doesn’t give you an advantage in To the opposite, it can actually give you a disadvantage. You could have a state that like for bought, let’s reverse that transfer, and you want to transfer to Florida because you’ve got familial support in Florida. So you go from having to register once a year of mail format to having to register three times a year. You go from having no exclusions on in Vermont to having Exclusion Zones everywhere as large as 2500 feet in Miami Dade County. You go from having having a I’m guessing fairly lack supervision in Vermont, to possibly having much more extreme supervision in Florida, because for most conditions come with you to Florida, but Florida has the option to stay compact to take your offense, compare it to what that offense is in their state and they can impose conditions additionally, that they would have imposed had you been convicted in Florida for similar offense as long as they’re not doing that. Those special conditions to to dissuade you from coming to Florida. You have to are consistent standard conditions they impose on that offender. They can impose those conditions on you in Florida. So you may end up in with rather than getting a better result, you may end up going from, what is it, they say, the frying pan to the pot or whatever the saying goes?

Andy 45:18
From the pot to the fire, whatever.

Larry 45:20
don’t don’t think of an interstate transfer some place where you go to get a better outcome because that’s not the purpose interstate transfer is not going to likely result. Now, the reality is if you go to Vermont, and you go from a real bad state like Alabama, where they hate everybody, and the people that run the system have a 11th grade education. And you go to a state like Vermont where they take if you ended up at Burlington, where they have a little more progressive view of things. You might end up with a supervising officer that just may refuse to enforce some of that stuff, even though it said it’s in the paperwork, how rigorously they’re going to enforce that is entirely up to the human individual that starts with enforcement. So I can’t say that you bought by you, but you end up with a better outcome by transferring. But you don’t go into that you just hope that happens, because there’s no assurance that they won’t be just as rigorous as the state that impose those conditions.

Andy 46:13
So we’ve already covered the fees. And then so let’s let’s go back to is the transfer guaranteed? Are there any conditions that you have family, kids, your dog, your house, anything that could like be like, well, we can’t deny the transfer? Or is there? Can they just always go? No, we don’t want to

Larry 46:33
there are there are situations and they’re getting the bench book is a health helpful tool for that because they have a they have a chart of mandatory acceptance cases. And a couple of examples would be like, if you weren’t living in that state at the time you’re, you’re you’re convicted, and you can prove that that would be a mandatory acceptance state. So so you’re traveling out of state and you do something that causes you to enter the criminal justice system but but you were only in that state as a visitor You’re so you go back and forth to court and you plead out in that state and then you want to go back home, they will, they will have to take those cases back because that that’s a mandatory acceptance case. You can’t use the justice system to make someone homeless, if you’re putting them on probation. Now, if you put them in prison, and that state, rather than sending them, giving them committee supervision, I’m not clear if that breaks the requirement that they take that person back if they were living there at the time of their sentencing. But clearly, if you go straight from from from being on the street, you go to a plea judge gives you five years probation. You were living in Georgia, you can plead out in Arkansas, Georgia has to grant reporting instructions, but what Georgia doesn’t have to do is if it’s a person forced to register if it’s a sexual offense, and that means or if it Arkansas defined it as a sex offense, or Georgia defines that a sex offense which Georgia has a slightly broader list at Arkansas does. If Georgia either state defines that as a sex offense, then they will trap you in the sending state until until the receiving state has cleared your your residence because you might in a normal circumstance they will give you immediate reporting instructions and say we verified you. That was your place of residence, you can go straight home if you have a sex offense, they they don’t have that provision that you could end up trapped in the state where you did the plea because that residence you’re gonna live maybe an exclusion So, so the attorneys are woefully woefully underprepared on that. They plead out people all the time. And then their client says I’m stuck here. They say Ha. And they sell what I went to probation, they said I couldn’t go back until until my home approves. And then what’s even sadder is that sometimes the homeless not approvable, because the people back in Arkansas say Well, sorry, that’s within an exclusion zone can’t live there. And the person’s been living their 20s at 27 years, and they don’t have the hundred dollars a night for a hotel room. It’s Georgia and they end up they end up trapped. And that happens all too often because the feds attorneys out there, you’re not prepared. And you don’t take the time to be prepared. You tell the by I got your probation outcome, are you going to get us probation? This is a sweetheart deal. And you have not bothered to know what the consequences are depleting out to a sex offense and how that’s going to impact their life. When they leave that courthouse, you have done your homework, and you should do your homework.

Andy 49:25
And who would be the expert on this subject?

Larry 49:29
Well, I don’t know who all of them would be, but I know that that I do teach this in our state and I really hammer that hammer that issue every chance I get because attorneys just don’t know. And, and probation sounds so good, particularly but yeah, when when you’ve got something that that could easily in the person with a prison sentence, and they’re not intentionally doing that. But they’re, they’re doing it by omission. And if you’re going to do sex offense cases, you need to deal with The registry is all about, and you need to know the consequences. And you need to properly inform your client. Because your client might not have taken that plea if you’re told him. Oh, by the way, I’m telling you, this is a great plea. But one thing that I haven’t told you we need to talk about is what are you going to do for housing? Because they have up to 45 days to investigate your place? And do you have 45 days worth of income to keep your going? Or do you have anybody you can stay with because I can try to stall for more time if you can get that money together. But that’s going to be the inevitable outcome is you’re going to be trapped in the state because this offense is going to require registration, and we got to make sure that you can live now. Preferably, you would do that research to make sure that that you know whether that residence is going to qualify. But that can be more difficult because then you’re getting into another state’s restrictions and who do you call? How do you get accurate information? And you end up just like the person calling right on I know, people spend their life calling around other states and they say, Gee, I can’t get an answers. Well, that’s true.

Andy 50:58
right Then the final question that I have is how long after I arrive at the destination state Do I have before I am required to register?

Larry 51:07
Well, that would be up to the destination state, it would be whatever amount of time that they have now, your your, your state’s going to tell you to register within a certain amount of time. But in reality, they’re not going to violate you as long as you get registered within that states. Because for them to violate you, they’re gonna have to allege to the to the citizen court that you violated the law in the receiving state. And as long as you comply with that law in the receiving state, you’ve got whatever amount of the time is, which is typically three days, sometimes as many as five days or even in our state, it can be as long as 10 days before you have to register. But I would tell people don’t don’t drag it out, register within within a couple of days. That way, you’re showing good faith to be in compliance.

Andy 51:46
Sure. Is there anything else that we’ve missed?

Larry 51:50
Well, I’m sure that the listeners will will let us know but but I really, I really think that this is an important thing about interstate transfer and people out there who, who may be contemplating Write us sorts they call us nobody calls when’s the last time we got a phone call was ended about three months ago. Write us, write us. And we make it engage on that particular point, as long as it’s not too personalized to your case and the nuances of your case, but like this is very general. He wants to know how to get to Georgia. Well, the answer is very simple. He needs to do a lot of research, find out what restrictions he’s gonna have. And there’s nobody he can call easily. There’s not somebody sitting in Georgia waiting to say, Whoa, you’re in Tennessee prison. We’re just be delighted to have you here in Georgia. How How can we be of help? Right, right, right, right.

Andy 52:42
Ready to be a part of Registry Matters? Get links at registrymatters.co. If you need to be all discreet about it, contact them by email at registrymatterscast@gmail.com you can call or text or ransom message to say 747-227-4477 want to support Registry Matters on a monthly basis? head to Patreon.com/registrymatters. Not ready to become a patron, give a five-star review at Apple podcasts or Stitcher or tell your buddies that your treatment class about the podcast. We want to send out a big heartfelt support for those on the registry. Keep fighting without you, we can’t succeed. You make it possible. All right. Well, to continue on with the show. And Larry, you even wrote me up like a cheat sheet for this Commonwealth. Commonwealth of Pennsylvania challenge in McHenry County Common Pleas blah, blah, blah.

Larry 53:47
This is one of the five appeals that have been working this way. We talked about Torsilieri. I don’t know how to pronounce it. But we talked about a case sourced resource early.

Andy 53:56
Torsilieri, I think it’s about a month ago.

Larry 53:59
Yeah, we talked about that. This is Another one of those cases that’s working its to the state Supreme Court. This was Commonwealth of Pennsylvania versus Claude Lacombe and Michael Whitmyer.

Andy 54:14
Okay, and what? So, Larry, like you wrote me up the cheat sheet and I read the cheat sheet and it still comes out to be like legalese. They were trying to get some relief of some sort for, I think their crimes were like, a million years ago and they were things changed after their crimes. Is that sort of right?

Larry 54:35
Sort of, yes, this is a consolidated appeal from from both Lacombe and Whitmyer and the the essence of it is that the registry, and and the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania decided I believe in 2018 in Munez or Moon-ies, however, they pronounce it that The registry was unconstitutional because it impose punishment retroactively, the way they increased the duration and all the requirements when they passed their 2000. When they passed their law in 2010, which took effect I believe, in 2012, December 20th. And after years of litigation, they decided that well, then the legislature needed to fix that because I don’t want to say they the terminology I use, but they’re just not gonna let 1,000s of people disappear into the wind. So they like something in the wind, you know, you’ve heard me say it before.

Andy 55:31
Yes it’s usually like doing like number one into the wind.

Larry 55:37
And so, therefore, the the General Assembly passed by an attempt to save the registry for people whose crimes predated and these two both Lacombe and Whitmyer did predate December 20th 2012. So they they came up with with a sub chapter in their revised attempt to be constitutional subchapter I, and in the cheat sheet, subchapter I applies to those convicted of a sexually violent offense on or after April 22 1996, but before December 20, 2012. So, so that’s what they did. And they, they, they peeled back some of the onion from what had what had been in SORNA which was what what had been declared unconstitutional as applied to people who, who it was who had been roped into it retroactively. So, this is a this was a universe of people whose crimes predate SORNA. And, and when I’m saying SORNA, I’m talking about the 2012 they didn’t call it SORNA until 2012 they called it Megan’s Law. (Andy: Okay) but but when they when they adopted the Adam Walsh Act, they referred to that as SORNA because of the Federal lingo, The jargon they refer to it as SORNA. But as I have said so many times and every time I say it I get a hate mail, registration of any type, whether it be sex offenders, or whether it be people exposed to bad water in Flint, Michigan children, or whether it be young men for the draft, whether it be whatever, in and of itself isn’t unconstitutional. Each version of registration has to be examined on the merits of it. The courts will never be able to issue a decision to say that you cannot register people under any circumstances because that would knock down hundreds of registration schemes that we have operating constitutionally. I sent an email to someone on a task force we’re looking at how to respond about a police officer registry. A police officers registry doesn’t have to be punitive. It could be punitive, but it doesn’t have to be punitive. You could register the police officers. You could keep their information confidential except for those who have a need to Know, you can allow the police officer to go about his or her life, the former police officer that engaged in misconduct, you could allow them to work in any other occupation other than police business. And you could only make that information available to anyone who would be considering hiring them for police or security type work. And that would be a form of occupational debarrment for one occupation, unlike the sex offender registry, which in many states, debbars the person from so many occupations, because of either the proximity restriction, or just flat out they have a list of things that a person can’t do from driving an ice cream truck to a taxi cab or an Uber and on and on and on. They can’t work in a place that serves children primarily. But you can do you can do that. And that’s what we have here. The Pennsylvania legislature said we’re going to try to see what we need to do to have a constitutional registry. So they passed subchapter I and they peel back the onion, and they took off some of the previous things that had concern the court in Munez, and, and in my opinion, and this is only my opinion. This was not unanticipated because they relaxed it not as much as I would like to have seen. But they relaxed it just enough to satisfy the majority of the core. And that’s what they did. And at this point, what they did, and we can go through what I think was most relevant, they did put forth a specious argument that said that, that there was that the the parties didn’t have one of the parties didn’t have jurisdiction, the court wouldn’t have jurisdiction because he didn’t use the Post-Conviction Relief Act, which is the primary way to challenge something in Pennsylvania. And there was a time limitation and the court just laughed at that. They said, Nope, we don’t require that you use the PCRA. So that’s a specious bogus argument so they got slapped down on point one, but point two of those scienter Martinez seven factors which they only look at five of them. The one that I think played the integral most important part was the disabilities and restraint, which those who know me have heard me ranting about this for years, you can have a registry as long as it doesn’t impose any disabilities or restraints. And they decided that that this peel back of what they took off of the requirements just enough, they don’t consider it a disability or restraint. I still consider having to go to a police station once a year to be a disability restraint. But, when they compared what they were having to do previously which if they go through in the opinion if anyone was to read all 60 pages, including the dissenting opinion, they went through what has been peeled out of the onion and they peeled back the in-person and terms of when you change employment or have any updating information under the the version of of SORNA That applies to people convicted after 2012, they make any change, they have to go in and person. They peel that part off of the people who have old convictions. They peeled back the terms of Registration to be what they were at the time you were convicted, which in most instances is going to be 10 years. And they peeled back, they peeled back the the onion just enough that if you go back to your original term of registration, you don’t have to go in person. And they say that they don’t see this as a particularly disabling to have to… and they say that once a once a year in person is is necessary to keep your photo current. Now, what they don’t tell you is that you could actually take a photo without going in and through electronic transmission and with the facial recognition, they can quickly identify if that’s you, and you wouldn’t have to go in at all. But that’s not what the legislature chose to do. The legislature chose rather than using technology. They chose to require a once a year in person visit. And everything else can be submitted in writing.

Andy 1:01:53
Yeah, and it says that they were required to register quarterly so now they’re only required to register annually.

Larry 1:02:00
And the and the big thing they did is they put a removal process in for the there were a few people under the old Megan’s Law that were lifetime by virtue of their SVP their sexually violent predator designation, or for having multiple convictions. You could be a lifetime offender, but most people were not. But those people that are triggered under under the old law, which essentially those terms were restored by subchapter I, those people now can petition to be removed. And so that interjects due process into it now, they have to show by a preponderance of the evidence that they’re not a threat. But there’s a there’s a petition process now. And this is just enough to be constitutional. And this is the final say on this. This is there’s nothing nowhere else to appeal to. I mean, you could file a cert petition with the Supreme Court. Lacombe and Whitmyer could do that. They’re not going to grant it they’ve already told us that when they denied the cert petition in Munez that they have no Interested In This Pennsylvania issue, and they’re not going to grant cert on this one if and I doubt that even attorneys would even bother to apply for cert. But this is the end of the line. So this is the registry that will be applied going forward to people who have old convictions and the court has spoken. So the only other way to change it is through the legislative process. And that’s not likely to happen, because why would they change it Now? The courts have ratified that this is just enough of a peel back.

Andy 1:03:25
Does this by chance set up a framework of what other states could do to be constitutional like they have they found the wall like what the limit is of what is or isn’t constitutional?

Larry 1:03:37
Well, they have in Pennsylvania because, but see, each state Supreme Court is different. I mean, other state supreme courts will look at this if this issue comes before them, where they’re trying to figure out if they peeled back enough, they will certainly use this well written analysis. They’ll look at that, but but it doesn’t, there was a dissenting judge with a very blistering dissent. normally I don’t pay much attention to the dissents because at the supreme court level, They don’t mean a whole lot. But But since someone said, Larry you should talk about the dissent, so I’m talking about the dissent. There’s a well written dissent That’s that in, I’ve got two versions in Dropbox. One is the one that Pennsylvania PARSOL and it only has the majority opinion. But then I went on casemaker and downloaded the it was a full with the dissenting opinion. And I made some highlights on both, but those who like to read the dissent have at it, there’s a well written dissent. So I guess that if you could change the makeup of the state Supreme Court enough to where more people thought like the dissent Did you could come up with a different outcome. But right now, I don’t see that happening anytime soon.

Andy 1:04:39
And that would take a massive effort, because I know how this the SCOTUS has identified it, you know, lifetime appointments, and I don’t know how the states are, but I’ll assume it’s something vaguely similar that it would be pretty hard to change enough with them to make a difference down the line.

Larry 1:04:55
I don’t think it’s lifetime but but it’s it’s sometimes it’s very political Where they just run for the seats. And sometimes it’s a hybrid model where they’re pointed, then they have to be retained in a retention process. And I don’t know the Pennsylvania process, but I know that in Wisconsin, it’s elected because they were able to, they were able to get what are the real right wingers off the court of last election. And so that’s one one step towards, towards getting I would daresay and I don’t know this judge, but I would dare say this judge is probably not a real conservative judge that wrote the dissent. But anybody who wants to read the dissent, do the research on the judge and if it comes back that this is as a real conservative judge, we’ll certainly put your comments on and your if you can document it, don’t just say in my opinion, this is conservative, but show us that this, this, this person, this person is recognized as a solid conservative, if that’s the dissenting judge we’ll say that next week or whatever amount of time it takes you to put that together. But usually the dissent is not from the conservatives on this issue, they’re usually okay with it. So I’m doubting that’s the case.

Andy 1:06:01
Um, can you do me one favor? You talked about? I think I I don’t I don’t remember you saying it during the segment, but we talked about it pre-show and I said that sounds like a strict liability and used some word that I’ve never heard before. Can you use that word again? It was one of the seven thingamajigger is for the Mendoza Martinez thing.

Larry 1:06:20
Yes, it’s S, as in Steve, -c-i-e-n-t-e-r. Scienter

Andy 1:06:26
Scienter. and what does Scienter, can you define it in so many terms?

Larry 1:06:31
knowledge.

Andy 1:06:34
So, so strict liability means you knew the crime you were committing was committing the crime.

Larry 1:06:39
No, just the opposite. It means you didn’t know nor do we care. It’s a strict liability crime. (Andy: Okay) so so so but but the Supreme Court of the United States has expressed a strong distaste for strict liability of crimes. They have they have said that they’re okay in regulatory type situations or crimes that are very minor that don’t carry life altering consequences. And one of the factors is to help determine if this is a civil regulatory scheme, Because in civil regulatory schemes, oftentimes we don’t really care much about whether you do any better, you know that you just shouldn’t do it and you get slapped on the wrist for doing it. But in registration, too many courts ignore that seven and it would be it would be easily adaptable to what would help you come up with another factor that weighs in favor of fighting it’s punitive. In order to be required to register, I do not know of any state where you can be required to register and not know about it.

You have to be apprised. And, and and since Padilla v Kentucky, US Supreme Court, the collateral consequences all that are known at the time you have to be apprised of those and one of the collateral consequences of a sexual offense conviction that triggers the duty registers that you been informed. So you have to know that you have a duty to register. So that means that in order for this scheme to come into play, there has to be a findinding of scienter, you do not have to register until you know, you have to register. If you’ve never been apprised of a duty register, they can’t convict you of failing to register. So in my mind…

Andy 1:08:16
So if you did some sort of crime in 1910, and you’ve never even heard of the registry here you are 120 years old, and they’d say, Well, you didn’t register we’re gonna throw you in prison for the rest of your life like shit. I didn’t know I got convicted way back way back when?

Larry 1:08:30
And that would be actually I mean, you’re actually being silly, but you’re actually that’s a good point Because in the the Adam Walsh Act criteria from the federal government, there is a provision that says that if a person reenters the justice system for an older conviction that didn’t trigger a duty, and that they get convicted of something that carries a year or more of incarceration, they, the state can bring them in retroactively. But again, say you got convicted of something that that was a felony level which most felony offenses carry a potential penalty of more than a year. Now it doesn’t have to be imposed. Everybody gets all, Well, I didn’t get it, I got probation, but your crime had a statutory match maximum penalty That was more than a year. Whether or not it’s imposed is irrelevant. If you get convicted of a crime that carries more than a year, then the Adam Walsh Act says recapture these people. Well, if you had a true tier three offense, meaning something that would qualify as a tier three, the feds tell you that you can capture them, if they’re still alive, you can you can impose a registration obligation, but that person would not have a registration obligation that they could be prosecuted for because they never knew so they committed their crime in 1972. And they’ve been crime free until 2020. And they commit a crime get convicted and that state has that provision. They’ve adopted that recommendation from the feds and they’ve got that clawback provision in there. They would have to serve that person and notice look, you are now subject to registration. It would only be after they failed to register. Thus they would have had been they would have the scienter that they need, but they just simply say, Oh wait, we finally stumbled across you you got convicted in 1975. Therefore you have to register today you didn’t register that that that would be strict liability. that couldn’t happen because you have to have knowledge that you have the duty to register.

Andy 1:10:24
Fan freaking tastic Okay, I think this is this to me, Larry, this is pretty, to me, it’s very nuanced, very complicated, very like in the weeds detailed and it hurts my head. And I mean, I think it’s simple, but just the way that it’s presented is not and I just want to say it that way. But…

Larry 1:10:47
I to try to try to prevent, present it simple.

Andy 1:10:51
I know you do. I know you do. And probably people listening are way smarter than me and they’re like, Andy’s an idiot and he’ll like don’t worry about it. We got no problem man. You guys are smarter than me. That’s fine. I don’t care. All right. Are we ready to move on then?

Larry 1:11:04
I think we are.

Andy 1:11:06
Okay, cool. Well, we have, see I was going to play a voicemail message. But I persuaded the individual with the question to actually ask it and have a little bit of dialogue with you, because you always have follow up questions of the person that has asked the question. And so this is a patron who has a question to ask you Larry.

Tammy 1:11:28
Hi, guys, I do appreciate all that you guys do, and getting the information out there. So please keep it up. (Andy: Who are you?) I’m Tammy (Andy: okay, hi Tammy) and my husband is on the registry. I just have a follow up question from Episode 135. The petition for removal from the registry of the podcast. I want to help him with the process of getting off the registry. This will not only benefit him, it will benefit his family too. What actions can, me and the family do to ensure a positive outcome. Basically, add to the judge’s file, maybe a letter from the family. Would this benefit, what type of wording should be included in those letters? For example, I was thinking that we have a son, and for him to get off the registry would take the fear and anxiety away of any retaliation or being harmed, with his name being public. Is there anything else the family can do to ensure him getting off the registry? Thank you.

Larry 1:12:41
That’s, that’s a brilliant question. And it brings forth something I’ve never thought about. We don’t have a petition process in our state. So I’m only involved in an advisory capacity of two states where lawyers have met me in some national setting and they say what would you do? What would you do? I never thought about that. But I can tell you that anything a family can do, either legislatively, and I’ve encouraged this to for family members that are old enough to to come talk about the adverse impact on the registry to them. It’s very powerful when they do it. And I can’t imagine that it would be anything other than helpful to have have a letter to the judge. Now, you don’t get to exporté the judge, meaning single party communication. So if a petition is filed, and the prosecuting attorney is the district attorney is the responding party, any communication to the judge gets presented to the other side, and so they’ll be aware of it. And it is possible that the judge would not consider it if the prosecutor strenuously objected, but remember, prosecutors are elected individuals. And if a letter was was was composed in a way, that it sounded like it was coming from someone who was a victim, so to speak off the horrors of the registry. I would be, I would be doubtful a prosecutor, what would what would object extraneously. We’ll see, the question becomes an approval process what is what is relevant evidence, the judge has got got the idea by the statute of what’s relevant, and that a judge has a little bit of leeway of what they want to consider. And they’ll consider things as long as there’s not an extremely vigorous objection. So I can’t imagine that a letter from a family member would be would be extraneously objected to unless they really didn’t want that person off the registry. And they were looking for anything they can do. But in terms of other things you can do, you can make sure that the lawyer is competent. You can make sure the lawyer understands these things. Lawyer competency is a real big problem this area because you , geez I’m gonna get myself when I don’t have any business at all, but but lawyer competency and diligence is a big part of the problem. They do not go into these taking this as seriously as it should be taken. Because of the limitation on how many times you can go back and ask him and what the time delay is before you can Ask again. You need to get it right the first time. And and I think letters although I’d never thought of it, I think it’s a great idea. And I think most judges would consider it and I doubt prosecutors would would vigorously object. But getting that getting that packet like Paul Dubbling, who’s in in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, and he does a lot of work for NARSOL. He has an extremely good process of putting together the packet, and he gives the judge everything they need to grant the relief that’s requested. And he’s well prepared. And when you find an attorney like Paul, you have a much greater chance for success. And and that attorney has communicated with the prosecution to find out what their position is going to be and how to try to overcome any objection they may have. And if you don’t talk to the prosecution, you’re never going to know if you just filed a petition say Well, we’ll see when we get to court what the judge decides. You’ve just cut your odds down considerably when you do that.

Tammy 1:15:53
Okay, so when you do submit that letter you suggested to victimize it. What the registry is doing to his family if he stays on?

Larry 1:16:04
I would, I would say, That’s exactly what I would say. Just like when we ask people to come the legislature, we want that teenager to say, until until my father was on the registry, I had a good social life. But now he’s on the registry, the kids won’t have anything to do with me. I’m an outcast. And I didn’t do anything wrong. This is the consequences of what I’ve, and I didn’t do anything wrong. And I’m a victim here. And the old, the age old, kids didn’t ask to be born. I said that in my life at once, once or twice I’m sure most of most of us have. The kids didn’t ask for this. So you can’t help but be moved by, If you’re human, you can’t help but be moved by a minor who’s saying that I’m suffering because of this, and I’m being victimized because of this. And, and my father, my mother, whichever the case might be is an exemplary parent and I need them in my life. I can’t see how That would be anything other than helpful.

Tammy 1:17:02
Okay, great. Can you pass on anything else?

Larry 1:17:09
No, but I’d be glad to help you if you if you know how to contact us through the through the channels, I’d be glad to try to help you when that time comes. So

Andy 1:17:18
is there a kitty that you can like start throwing dollar bills in or hundred dollar bills into the judges coffers, I mean does that help? I don’t know I’m just grabbing straws.

Larry 1:17:29
I’ve never, I’ve never heard of that. I keep emphasizing that the prosecution is a bigger part of the picture than the judge. You’re going to occasionally run across a judge that just just hates anybody who’s got this type of conviction. But judges are are human beings and if if a compelling case is made, and there’s not strenuous opposition, they’re inclined to just go I mean, they want to get through the day and get off the bench, believe it or not, they don’t want to sit there and hear all this stuff. So if you can get if you can, if you can reduce the prosecution’s anxiety that is so critical to everything because in every state I’m familiar with that is the responding party. That is who you have to go through, is the district attorney or the prosecutor’s office. That’s the responding party on the petition.

Andy 1:18:17
All right. Well, thank you, Tammy. Appreciate it.

Tammy 1:18:22
Thank you, guys.

Andy 1:18:23
Thank you. (Larry: All right.) Then let me play. So Larry, I was fortunate to have one of our Patreon supporters, he was rolling through town and we met for lunch and he was just leaving one of the the horrendous states. And while he was traveling, he was listening to the show for a little while. He’s not here now, but I definitely need to give a shout out to Nate from Iowa who was listening. And but he left a voicemail message. It’s sort of related. He didn’t bring up the actual hovercraft, but here’s a quick little voicemail message from Nate.

Nate (Voicemail) 1:18:58
Hey, Andy, Larry. This is Nate from Iowa. I’m currently driving to Tennessee looking for Will thought we’d try and find them and explain to them what fyp stands for. Anyway, I just want to guys let you know that we just got done going to Florida, and there were no sheriff’s or state patrol waiting at the border for us. I think it was only there for about three days, so I made it. I’m alive. Anyway. Thanks guys. Can’t wait to hear you tonight, fyp.

Andy 1:19:27
Well there you go no hovercrafts, leaving the state of Florida after being there past the requisite time to register.

Larry 1:19:34
Well, it It surprises me that there was no hovercraft. But, you know, I remember we had a recent episode where I said maybe there maybe there can be such a thing as a hovercraft because somebody got caught in something. I said Gee, they really did want to catch that person. I don’t remember particulars, but I think maybe there might be a hovercraft.

Andy 1:19:55
I just thought it was kind of silly to play. Not not encouraging anybody to go break any rules but just anyway and also Will he’s looking for you in Tennessee. He’s probably way past there. Now he was Nashville or so when we started recording. Good, dude, Pleasure to meet you and thank you for stopping by. We can almost close it out. We got a couple of new patrons this week, Larry, we had a Jay. Jay is a person that emails us all the time, like, sends a bunch a bunch a bunch of articles and finally became a patron. And then also Ethan, who is a person you’re interested in having on the podcast in the next will be on at the beginning of August as well.

Larry 1:20:34
Fantastic. So that is a big fyp.

Andy 1:20:36
Yeah, man. How about some fyps? Hey, Tammy, when you were on, you didn’t say fyp? I don’t think so. Might have to cut out your whole section on the question you asked. It’s a requirement. But Larry, that’s all we got. And where can people find the show?

Larry 1:20:55
Very carefully.

Andy 1:21:00
Of course. It’s careful. Where’s the website for people to download the podcast?

Larry 1:21:03
It’s on the internet.

Andy 1:21:05
Ah, just somewhere on the internet superhighway of informations. You’re scrolling down the page now aren’t you? You should have it memorized. I should be able to wake you up like cold like, Hey, what’s the address? And you should just know. registrymatters.co

Larry 1:21:26
I don’t I don’t keep track of that kind of stuff.

Andy 1:21:28
Oh, okay. Not the important stuff. And so we did get some voicemail messages and how do people leave some voicemail?

Larry 1:21:36
(747)227-4477 and if you didn’t hear that, that’s 747-227-4477 and if you want to send an email, it’s registrymatterscast@gmail.com

Andy 1:21:54
Did I ever tell you about the email address that I originally set up and I lost it I lost the password to it. I did have registrymatters@gmail.com and I lost it. Did I ever tell you that?

Larry 1:22:03
Well, why don’t you do a reset?

Andy 1:22:05
I tried it like, Hey, what’s the most recent password and I didn’t set up enough recovery stuff, so it’s just gone. So that’s how it’s registry matters cast because I’m an idiot. So

Larry 1:22:15
the best way to support us if you are so inclined is patreon.com/registrymatters or just patreon.com. And you can search for all your favorite podcasts, including Registry Matters.

Andy 1:22:27
There’s only one podcast that matters at Patreon. And that’s Registry Matters that I can assure you. Larry That is all I have on this fine Saturday night. Anything else before we head out?

Larry 1:22:39
I’m done.

Andy 1:22:41
All right, man. Well, have a great night and I will talk to you soon. Take care everybody. Good night.

Larry 1:22:45
Good night, everybody.

 


Transcript of RM136: Even Miss Kentucky is on the Registry for Sexting

Listen to RM136: Even Miss Kentucky is on the Registry for Sexting

Andy 0:00
Registry Matters is an independent production. The opinions and ideas here are that of the hosts and do not reflect the opinions of any other organization. If you have a problem with these thoughts, fyp. Recording live from FYP Studios, east and west. And this is the second time I’m doing this. I’m confused, transmitting across the internet. This is Episode 136 of Registry Matters. Larry, I feel this is deja vu that we did this like I don’t know, an hour, hour and a half ago.

Larry 0:28
We did and we we started and then thanks to your unreliable source of power in the Peach State, we have to start all over.

Andy 0:38
Yeah, it just like we were like two minutes into it. I asked you a question. And then poof, power just dead. Dead.

Larry 0:44
I was giving an answer. And then I thought it was odd that there was no feedback. I guess you weren’t hearing me.

Andy 0:51
I was definitely not hearing you. But I did ask you a question that did you know that the internet had gone out? We did start with that.

Larry 0:59
and I had not heard that.

Andy 1:01
it was interesting, like alarms and email started firing off it was about five o’clock yesterday. And I don’t even know what the details were but some massive provider on the internet system called CloudFlare got, I don’t know, somebody pressed the wrong button, or did they get attacked or whatever. But anyway, the internet went out for about 30 or 40 minutes yesterday, which is kind of neat.

Larry 1:21
When you say the internet did that affect every user, on the globe, or in certain segments of the country, or did it Tell me what you mean by the internet went out.

Andy 1:30
the internet would mean in this context, it would have meant that only a portion of people would have impacted so CloudFlare they would have stuff spread across the world, but probably pretty much just in the United States was impacted.

Larry 1:46
I see.

Andy 1:49
But so there’s that. Alright, so we received a crap ton of feedback from the episode we did last week on petitioning for removal from the registry. And so we have some follow up from that. And one in particular was a question from someone in Georgia named Gerald. And he just had his little birthday party fun where you had to go visit the Popo and get his fingerprints and different kinds of pictures taken. And he had a question about the the information that you are obligated to follow, the regulations, the rules, part of this civil regulatory scheme that tells you, you know, you can live within 1000 feet or can’t live within 1000 feet, can’t have photos of certain kinds and so forth. There’s like, there’s probably 30 things per each bracket. And Georgia does things where there’s like a before a date, then there’s in between these two dates, and then there’s another one between some other dates anyway. And but so his question is if you get off the registry, what of those things do you still have to follow? It is my understanding that when you get removed from the registry that all of that would just like you’d go back to a normal person but you would still have the felony but otherwise I thought you would just go back to kind of like normal.

Larry 3:04
That would generally be true if those prohibitions come about within the registry scheme itself. And they’re not a separate section of law that says for, for example, if there would be a statute that says anyone who’s ever been convicted of this type of offense, they’re forbidden to do the following things may be a job debarment, occupational debarment, or it may be a debarment like I think in Illinois, the park restrictions I believe, apply even after the person’s off the registry because its worded has has ever been convicted, and as we can discern has ever would include even when you’re beyond your registration period. But as a general rule, it would be that those things are triggered those those prohibitions are triggered by a duty to register it it’ll say anyone subject to OCGA, the section covering registration, will have have will have this as a prohibition. And then if you’re no longer subject to that it doesn’t sound like you would have that as a prohibition, because that’s the trigger mechanism is being required to register

Andy 4:11
Right. So my understanding is different states, if you have one of these crimes, you can’t be a nurse. So those things would carry you or a particular individual couldn’t go take the BAR, a guest speaker at the conference in Houston. Is that, does that follow kind of along those lines?

Larry 4:28
Yes, those things that are not specifically tied to the registry, if they’re standalone statutes, so they have occupational prohibitions that, that that don’t apply just on the, text language of the text that says this is an obligation on anyone required to register if it says this is an obligation or debarment, for anyone who’s ever been convicted, ever would include the time beyond the registry.

Andy 4:56
ever is one of those like absolute words?

Larry 4:59
Ever is one of those Absolute words and then the only exception would be possibly if you got a pardon. And then that would possibly remove that barrier. But as a general rule, all the registration obligations would go away. But any separate provisions that are not in the registry scheme could very well continue. So we would have to have a more specific question about whether or not that particular prohibition would would linger beyond registration.

Andy 5:25
Well, for for many, many people, one would be the living and work restrictions the thousand foot but you know, there’s a whole multitude of them that you’re just initialing that you again, the living restrictions, so the thousand foot thing, and I think there’s one he brought up of having photos of minors, so you have pictures of your nieces and nephews. And I’m like, at that point, I don’t even I was just trying to think about it from a logical standpoint of well who’s going to enforce it, like, I don’t see like they’re not going to come around and do some kind of compliance check because that’s not their role anymore.

Larry 6:00
Well on the on the possession of photos I believe it’s actually the collection of them the actual snapping the photos if you’re in a park I don’t believe a registrant, not I could not be correct because I can’t know the nuances of all 50 registration schemes but I believe in Georgia it’s the actual collecting of the photos if you’re in a public location, you cannot take a picture of a minor at a park I don’t believe it’s a prohibition against possession of the of the photo. But again, any of those things that are tied to the duty to register specifically those things would go away. But if it’s a standalone “has ever” then you’re gonna have to live with that for a while longer.

Andy 6:37
Because it was kind of in this the the course of the conversation was mostly about getting Second Amendment rights back, which to me within the for I don’t particularly care about owning a gun but about voting there to me, they’re sort of parallel to each other in that regard of getting your voting rights back.

Larry 6:56
Well, in most states, you get your your voting rights back by completing your sentence. And in case of Florida which we’ll talk about later, it’s when you complete all obligations as a result of your conviction. And, and but the second amendment is is a little more nuanced because the state cannot, the State of Georgia could say you have the Second Amendment right. And the feds could say sorry, you’re you’re perpetually barred. (Andy: Right). And then we get into the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution and since the gun ownership, the feds have claimed that claim an interstate commerce connection that because of the interstate commerce clause of the Constitution, the feds that still prosecute you, we have that dichotomy here in our state. After 10 years beyond your sentence, you can own a weapon in this state. You can possess a weapon, it’s completely within state law, the state, the state doesn’t have any problem with it after a 10 year sit out period, but the feds can still prosecute you. They seldom do.

Andy 7:54
It’s a supremacy thing that we’re going to talk about sort of along those lines, also.

Larry 8:00
they seldom do prosecute people for that. But if they do not like you, and they’re looking for something to put you in prison for, and you have been a nuisance to them, it is quite possible that the State of New Mexico would refer you to the United States Attorney for the District of New Mexico, they would say, this person got off supervision 10 years and 13 hours ago, and we caught them in possession but our hands are tied, would you like to take a look at this? And it would be very likely.

Andy 8:32
they’re not connected like that are they, Larry?

Larry 8:34
Oh, no, what would give you that idea? And we’re gonna we’re gonna talk about that when we go into the people that follow the discussion, because I’m going to talk about that vindictiveness, and one of the persons who contacted us about about the episode and had some questions that so we’re going to follow up on that and we’ll talk about vindictiveness.

Andy 8:56
we could do that now. That was Next on the agenda was to talk about the, a couple people that reached out. Um, one was saying, I need Andy to get in touch with me like immediately to help me get off the registry. I was like, man, you’ve got the wrong guy. Hey, let me forward your information over to the other guy. I was like oh, I’m sorry. But let me bring this one piece of this puzzle up Larry. He he learned of the podcast through someone else that is a listener. He had never heard of us before. So I beg I plead I implore anybody that listens to the podcast, can you please go share it with someone who doesn’t listen to it possibly someone that doesn’t know because I personally feel that we are we are pumping out some very valuable, worthwhile information for people to navigate this whole Kabuki show. And there are probably people in your circle that don’t know about it. And I think it would benefit them if, you know we can’t reach everybody and we’re trying as hard as we can. But from the several hundred of you that do listen to it, please share it with someone.

Larry 9:53
Well, thank you and I will say that I spoke to both of those people personally and the purpose of the speaking to them was really not to resolve their individual case, per se their individual issues. But to figure out if what they had raised as issues would be something that there would be commonality that the listeners would want to hear. And I think that in both cases, they are. And, and therefore, I’m going to talk about both of them in the abstract, no names, hopefully not enough details that anybody would be able to figure out anything but but I think both situations would be interesting to the listeners. One, talk about vindictive. He was charged in our state in state court for possession, a number of counts, I forget. I think it was somewhere in that neighborhood of 20 counts of possession of porn. And he pled out in state court, ended up with a splendid outcome in state court because we have that conditional discharge provision. First time offenders, no felony convictions are eligible to argue the court for a conditional discharge which, which with that outcome, you don’t have to register. And he got a conditional discharge, which meant that he didn’t have to register. And he got off probation early because he was very well behaved under supervision, which in this state to finish sex offender supervision, without any violations is an amazing accomplishment in and of itself. But while he was doing such a great job with the state system here, the feds decided that it was so good that they couldn’t stand it. So they charged him because they’re dual separate sovereign, not a dual but a separate sovereign. And the feds charged him and he ended up getting a 40-month sentence. He pled out as everyone does in the federal system, and he ended up with a 40-month sentence. And there’s no conditional discharge option there and possession of child porn In this state is a lifetime registration offense, even though the Adam Walsh Act, which everyone hates so much, doesn’t require it to be designated as such, we have that as a lifetime offense. So he has a lifetime every 90 day obligation to register. And he wanted know, In addition, he has supervised release for life. And his issue was wasn’t really clear because we don’t have a lifetime supervision in state law. And I’m, I’m just predisposed to be wired in terms of the state system and I’m thinking, well, this guy must have a screw loose. We don’t have lifetime probation here. Well, he’s not in the state system. He’s done with the state system. He’s discharged honorably. And he has lifetime supervision at the federal level. Now, although I don’t know if I’ll be able to help him. What I told him that I would do is to figure out what his odds are of getting off that lifetime supervision and What I need to do, and I told him I would do it in the coming days is I’ll figure out what judge sentenced him in the federal court. He gave me that judges name. I’ll find out what that judge typically does with requests for early termination. And I’ll find out what the US attorney to the extent that I can, he has to be honest with me and tell me how much US Attorney hated him and if he received any publicity, but how much angst the US Attorney’s Office has with him. And I’ll assign him a probability of being terminated early from from supervision from Lifetime supervision, based on the nuances of the judge, based on the nuances of his fact pattern. I don’t know what the images were, I don’t know what ages they were, I don’t know what was depicted. I don’t know what his standing was in the community. I know he wouldn’t have been eligible for conditional discharge if he had any prior criminal history. So I know, I know that, but there’s a whole lot that I would need to know to figure out whether we can help him. If I figure out that we can help him There’s a reasonable chance that he might shorten that lifetime supervision, then I would partner up with a licensed attorney, and we would file to see if we can get him off. But, but I would tell him up front, if this judge has never been known to let anybody off. I would say, it is possible you could be the exception, but probably not. So you’re going to be wasting money. And I explained to him, we have to do the same work. whether it works or not, we have to draft the petition. We have to incorporate all the underlying facts. We can, probably a psychosexual evaluation would be in order for him. And we have to plan for a hearing. It would be prudent to go visit the US Attorney’s Office at least talk to someone because they have all their records from his case and find out what their temperature levels gonna be. And then you have to show up for a hearing and you have to put on a good argument. And if it works, it works. If it doesn’t, it’s the same amount of work. The surgeon charges you whether the surgery works or not. Right? I mean they have staff to pay. Andy: No I understand this.) And I told him that, that but at least we will tell you that we think your odds are good, moderate, or not likely. And then you make the decision as the paying customer if you want to go forward.

Andy 15:17
Do all attorneys come up with you honestly and tell you whether they think that you’ll have success or not?

Larry 15:24
I think more do than what people give them credit for, but I think too many don’t. I think a lot of attorneys tell people that and and the the client casted aside is just being negative, and being lazy. And and and they go down and do some more shopping. They knock on enough doors till they hear what they want to hear. But I think a fair number of attorneys tell them that but I think there are some who give them the smoke and mirrors about that. Yeah, they went to law school and he was the best man at my and all this and They raise their hopes and it’s better for you to have a successful outcome thinking that your odds were low, than it is for you to think it’s a slam dunk, and then be be disappointed that you don’t even get out the gate when the judge turns their chair around backwards and doesn’t even look at you when you’re making your arguments and says, denied at the end of the hearing. I mean, that’s not that’s not helpful to anybody when that happens to you.

Andy 16:18
Yeah, and that would actually tell what someone else told me was that picking the attorneys is challenging that if you try and pick one, and they’re not promising that like that is just a whole nightmare of trying to figure out what attorney is going to be honest and do the work that you’re trying to get them to do if they have experience with it. Are they lying to you? No, I don’t mean like lying like, I’ve never done this, I’m going to try and just get his money, but they are seriously inexperienced at the work.

Larry 16:51
Well, what most of these people told me in one fashion or another is that that the attorneys want a bunch of money just just just to talk to them. They want Huge amount of money and and that’s not necessary. Time is money. Which means that if they’re going to sit down and spend a couple hours with you going through your through your your case or whatever amount of time it takes to get familiar, there would need to be some compensation for that. But they don’t need $10,000 to tell you, if your petition to be removed from Lifetime supervision has a chance of working a reasonable chance and there’s always a chance of anything, I guess there’s a chance to Earth could split in half and go in opposite directions around the solar system. But we don’t have a lot of record we don’t have anything showing that that’s happened on a regular basis. But but you don’t need to charge the entire fee to you can find out enough about the client. If they’ve been violating their supervised release, which this person hasn’t he’s had one very benign violation, but if they’ve been violating supervised release, and the judge has never been known to grant anybody. You don’t need $10,000 to say, well, Andy I’m telling you, I can see at least three violations here in the last year and a half. And this judge, as far as I can tell by querying the listserv has never let anybody off. And the US Attorney’s office I talked to one of the AUSAs and they said that they hate you just as much now as they did five years ago. And looking at the these facts, I just don’t believe it’s going to be the best investment of your money but now I’m willing to give it my best. Because I know you need hope. And I know that there’s always a chance that this could be an anomaly but understand that we’re we’ve got a terrible hill to climb here to make this work.

Andy 18:43
And that was the the second person is in Florida and he told me that I want to say he hired at least two attorneys and spent a bunch of money and neither worked and he was just desperate for anything. And I personally, just from what I know certainly from a massive lay person point of view like, dude, you’re in Florida, move, it would be easier.

Larry 19:05
Not just yet on him, he’s still on his his supervision and that would that would invoke the interstate comment, [not] comment, compact. There’s a compact for adult offender supervision in his case. And what he’s got going is he’s filed a petition, his attorney has filed a petition to be terminated because he’s had a he’s had a long stretch of successful supervision. And that, that hasn’t been decided yet. And what I did is I asked him, What did you did you want to share the petition with me, I’ll take a look at it. And I would like to see the State Attorney’s response to the petition, and see what they said. Because what they said in their response is going to be significant in terms of which which direction this goes. And if they were, if they were tepid in their response, if they weren’t just rabidly opposed to the to the to the petition, then what I would tell you is that probably be good to have a psychosexual evaluation, make sure you meet all the statutory requirements. Because as we learn from our previous guest just recently, if you don’t meet the statutory requirements, it doesn’t matter how good of a boy you’ve been. The judge is not going to like is not likely to let you off, and it’s probably very likely that the state’s attorney in Florida, but would would argue that in their response, they would say this person isn’t eligible. But if you are eligible, then what you would want to do is look at their response in pleading, spend some money, get a psychosexual evaluation, and you would probably want to talk to the probation officer, not you. But the attorney would want to talk to the probation officer and consider subpoenaing that officer as a witness. You generally do not want to subpoena a hostile witness. But if the probation officer is going to be neutral, and say that and be just factual without taking a hostile position on the stand, you might could benefit by having your probation officer subpoenaed. But those are judgment calls that a competent legal professional need to make after they’ve talked to the attorney after they’ve looked at everything, after they’ve talked to the probation officer. And they make those decisions. But the thing is, if your attorney can’t tell you a plan of at least what steps they would take, they don’t have to give you a graphic play by play that’s 30 pages book, a book of what they’re going to do. But if they can’t describe the process of what they would do after they spend some time getting to know you, they’re probably not the right attorney. I can tell you that. Because at the end of the interview, I can tell you what I think we ought to do. And then I take you into the big office, and I give my notes to the big office and the big office interviews you and looks at what I’ve come up with. And the big office says yes, I could concur with that, or no, I think I’ve got some more ideas that I would like to throw on the table here. But if they don’t have any ideas, you’ve got the wrong attorney.

Andy 22:15
Right. Okay. Are we done with that? Are we ready to move on?

Larry 22:17
I think so. But I enjoyed speaking to both of them. They were both very polite and and I feel bad that that they’re both the one here particularly got screwed because of the of the dual prosecution and the one in Florida, he just wants to move on with his life. He’s got a family he’s got, He wants to he wants to be free of all this and he’s just terrified that even if he gets off supervision, since some things are less than clear, in terms of what his obligations are he wants to be able to consult with a competent professional to make sure he’s not screwing up because the fear of prison is just really genuine to him.

Andy 22:55
Well, it is certainly not something to just scoff at. Some people are like I can do another dime like, No, no, no, I’m not I’m not interested in going back Larry. It’s not cool. It is not a fun place to be.

Larry 23:09
Well, being the social guy that you are you think you would have a very fine social life. There’s a lot of company around when you’re in prison.

Andy 23:15
Well there’s certainly a lot of company, but there’s not a lot of activity.

Larry23:18
I see. What, what about the What about the intellectual capacity? Let’s talk about that.

Andy 23:24
Wow, you you you threw that in there didn’t you? See, and here’s like, to be honest, like, I will accept Larry that I am above average, but I won’t go any further. So I think the average IQ in the United States is somewhere around 90 maybe it’s 100. The average IQ in prison is 10 points below so I will accept that I am one point higher than average. And, like, there are there’s one or two people in a dorm of 50 or 100 People that like can carry on, you know, they can string these things called words together and it’s really challenging. All people want to do is they just want to watch like Just watch some videos if they’ve got those on the TV, they just want to watch some sports ball and watch cars go left turns for four hours. Like I’m just there’s just more more going on for me than that. And it’s very frustrating. It’s not a cool place to be for having the talkies.

Larry 24:15
So I understand in brief time I’ve been in county incarceration, there was the same ratio there, you would have 20 guys in a housing unit and you could talk to one or two maybe.

Andy 24:28
Yep. And and then you have to figure out if you like the person, like great, they can string the words together, but God, he’s an asshole. Like, I don’t want to talk to those people either. That which then limits that possibility to. Alright, do you want me to play the Scalia clip?

Larry 24:44
Well, let’s set it up. We’re going to talk about the constitutional amendment in Florida that restored the rights to vote for for convicted felons. And it’s it’s big news because the matter has worked it’s up to the United States Supreme Court, a lower court decision was appealed where the the judge said that the language of the statute was not really appropriate because the language of the the amendment said all obligations. And then the republican controlled legislature and governor made sure that that they that they enacted a statute that required that before a person could vote, federal judge struck struck that down. And now we’re at the United States Supreme Court. And we haven’t played any Scalia, and this clip has been on the podcast at least twice. I think maybe more but but about the textual interpretation. And a lot of our listeners think of themselves as textualists. And that textual viewpoint is going to play heavy in this case because of the wording, all obligations. So let’s hear what Scalia says about text versus purpose.

(Audio Clip) 25:57
In your new book, you explain your approach to judging which is called textualism, or originalism, what exactly is that?

Judge Scalia (Audio Clip) 26:08
Originalism is sort of a subspecies of textualism. Textualism means you’re governed by the text. That’s the only thing that is relevant to your decision, not whether the outcome is desirable, not whether legislative history says this or that, but the text of the statute. Originalism says that when you consult the text, you give it the meaning it had when it was adopted, not not some later modern meaning.

(Audio Clip) 26:40
So, so if it was the Constitution, written in the 18th century, you’d try to find what those words meant in the 18th century.

Judge Scalia (Audio Clip) 26:44
Exactly the best example being the death penalty. I’ve sat with three colleagues who thought it was unconstitutional, but it’s absolutely clear that the American people never voted to proscribe the death penalty. They they adopted a cruel and unusual punishments clause at the time, when every state had the death penalty, and every state continued to have it, nobody thought that the Eighth Amendment prohibited it.

(Audio Clip) 27:10
Alright, you criticize and this gets to you as you say some of your colleagues and another approach using a word I have to admit that I did not know existed prior to reading your book purposivism. Did I pronounce that correctly?

Judge Scalia (Audio Clip) 27:22
Yeah You did. It’s a nice long word.

(Audio Clip) 27:25
All right, well I didn’t make it up. What does it mean?

Judge Scalia (Audio Clip) 27:27
What it means is, and it’s probably the most popular form of interpretation in recent times. It means consulting the purpose of the statute and deciding the case on the basis of what will further the purpose. Now, textualist consult purposes well, but only the purpose that is apparent in the very text.

Andy 27:54
Purposivism.

Larry 27:55
Now we have a clip from the governor of Florida, explaining his appeal. The reason why and he believes that that that the text is very clear. Do we have that one queued up?

Andy 28:08
I do here we go.

News Reporter (Audio Clip) 28:16
Just over 100 days now until Election Day and this year thousands of convicted convicted felons in Florida who’ve served their time were set to get their voting rights back. But now the Supreme Court dealing them a major blow and BC’s Kerry Sanders explains.

Kerry Sanders (Audio Clip) 28:33
For the first time critical battleground Florida, with more than a million potential new voters, convicted felons, like 54-year-old Judy Bolden, who lost her voting rights after she was convicted for drug trafficking. Now free she plans to vote for the first time in her life.

Judy Bolden (Audio Clip) 28:51
It made me feel worthless. Like I wasn’t even a citizen of the United States.

Kerry Sanders (Audio Clip) 28:55
Because you could not vote?

Judy Bolden (Audio Clip) 28:57
Because I couldn’t vote. My voice couldn’t be heard.

Kerry Sanders (Audio Clip) 29:03
And now?

Judy Bolden (Audio Clip) 29:04
And now I feel vindicated.

Kerry Sanders (Audio Clip) 29:03
But not so fast says Florida Governor Ron DeSantis.

Ron DeSantis (Audio Clip) 29:09
So those are the things that are being litigated.

Kerry Sanders (Audio Clip) 29:09
He challenged a state constitutional amendment approved by Florida voters two years ago that restored voting rights to felons who complete all terms of their sentence, except for felons who committed murder or sexual battery. The governor says all terms means just that.

Ron DeSantis (Audio Clip) 29:28
if you were robbed and someone’s convicted of taking, you know, $3,000 out of your house, and they were ordered to pay you $3,000 of restitution, and they didn’t do it did they complete the sentence?

Kerry Sanders (Audio Clip) 29:39
On Thursday, the US Supreme Court sided with Governor DeSantis, effectively preventing felons from voting in November unless they pay off what they owe. But critics fighting for the right to vote say requiring payments is just a twist on old Jim Crow laws.

Andy 29:57
Can we dig into that for just a minute? (Larry: Sure) Well, because I’m just always, we’ve you’ve said at least and I and I’m inclined to agree with you that most crimes are economic in nature, like someone goes and Robs somebody of the $3,000 that schmuck Florida Governor said, and he, you know, 3000 bucks gets stolen, and now you’re required to pay that back. But the reason the guy wasn’t driving around in a Ferrari saying, oh, I need three grand just because it looks pretty. They they needed the stuff because it was an economic crime to begin with, that just happened to be the method that they use to execute. And to then make them pay all of those fines, fees, restitutions and all those things back. It is sort of a poll tax, because it’s not like they’re running around with $100,000 a year job. You know, they’re flipping burgers at Wendy’s and whatnot for 8, 9, 10 dollars an hour. They don’t have extra cash to pay all the things back.

Larry 30:51
I agree with most of what you said. But the the point that I’m trying to illustrate here is that we have a lot of listeners who think that they’re textualist. And we’ve gone over decision after decision after decision around the country where there have been straight textual interpretations. And a lot of our people have said, well gee, they should have taken a look like in Maryland, for example, where the or the, there was no exception for teenagers exchanging images of themselves. They said clearly, that wasn’t the intent of the law. But that was the text of the law. And, and the guy in Nebraska when the judge said, Well, yeah, but you’re a person, aren’t you? You did come here, didn’t you? I mean, you are convicted in Colorado, aren’t you? I mean, that’s what the text says. All of a sudden the people who think they’re textualist began to think, Hmm, maybe I’m not a strict textualist. This if if there are at least five Scalias on the Supreme Court, what I think they did, I couldn’t find anything in show prep quickly, but I think they stayed the lower court’s order pending their further review, which means that These people will not be able to vote in this coming election. So I don’t think the Supreme Court has had their final say they just said that until this matter’s resolved, that that the the issue will remain dormant. But, but beyond that, I want to talk about the importance of carefully drafting. We have to assume, we have to assume that the people that are in the legislature know what they’re doing, if they had wanted it to be merely just your prison and your post-prison supervision. They were capable of saying that, why didn’t they? Well, I can I can ponder a couple of theories of why they wouldn’t do that. A) they got hoodwinked, or B), they rushed this. And they were trying to get something out to the voters and they weren’t up against a time crunch. And they didn’t have a real policy wonk. They’re saying, Wait a minute. This is not clear What we’re talking about here when we say, when we word it this way, but sometimes the people pretend they’re for something, and they hoodwink you. And I’ll give you an example in 2013, we passed a law here, modified registration obligations, and we allowed them to put an offense on the list that had been on the books since 2007. But for reasons that will take too long to explain, it was not a registerable offense, even though the law makers when they created the offense of electronic solicitation, They intended it to be on the list, but there was a snafu of chaptering. And two sections of law, two measures passing dealing with the same section of law, and the final one chapter Trump, and there was no obligation. Well, they were going to make that offense registerable in ‘13, and they put they put language in the state’s proposal for convictions. Registration would be required for electronic solicitation As of July one 2013. And I told a key representative, I said, Nope, that doesn’t work. Because that just means as of this date, we’ve now reconciled the two irreconcilable chapters 68 and 69 in 2007. That controversy, you’re just merely reconciling those those those conflicts. What we need to say is for convictions occurring on or after July one, 2013. Make it crystal clear that you know that there’s a group of people that weren’t required to register for those years in that gap period there. And that’s exactly what you intended to do. And there’s no ambiguity and the court will interpret that way. Well, that’s exactly the language we ended up with the language that I authored. And then when it went to the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court said, Well, we would have reconciled those two conflicts from 2007. But the legislature made it clear that they were aware that there was a gap, and they were deliberately making it for convictions, on or after July 1, ‘13, well, when when there’s someone not like me there, giving alternative language and explaining to key lawmakers why it has to be this way. This is an idea I have about how this happened. I don’t think there was anybody there that said, we can’t say all obligations. Because that’s too That’s too broad. And I think they ended up either being hoodwinked or they were rushed, and no one thought about it.

Andy 35:29
So but so then that would go to purposivism that the the amendment that like two thirds or something of the population voted to give voting rights back. They intended to give them their voting right back voting rights back. And then the the people opposed with Ron DeSantis and the legislature are pushing to, like fill in the gap and make it so these people cannot vote.

Larry 35:56
well to those 64.5% that voted for that amendment, did they want to give it back merely because they had completed their prison and probation? Or do they intend to give it back after they had completed all obligations? What is if we were to ask the average person what does all mean? I think that it would include those things. I think that that they do have a colorable argument. Now, I do not agree with what the result is of their argument. But this is not a specious argument. This is actually a good legal argument that they’ve come up with because of the horrible drafting.

Andy 36:32
Right. Yeah. And I, I would be willing to posit that the people in Florida if you were to ask them without leading them down the path that you just did, if you just said, Hey, are you in favor of this amendment to give people with the felonies their voting rights back? They’d be like, yeah, we should give them back. And then when you actually explain to them like all terms, and then you explained it to them, if you just, at a cursory glance I think people would be struggling to like contemplate, you owe these different fines, fees, extra things, that that’s what it would take to get it all back.

Larry 37:08
Well, well, we we are going to find out. If I were, if I were the the entity that was largely pushing this, I would kind of right off the Supreme Court and figure that there’s going to be five Scalias on the Supreme Court. And they’re going to say the text is the text. And I would go ahead and set about sending out a new amendment or either trying to do a statutory, whichever you think you have the political clout to do it. And I don’t know the constitutional amendment process in Florida. I don’t know what it takes to get something out to the people. But I would try to go ahead and fix this, because it’s not likely in my opinion that the Supreme Court is going to affirm the trial judge, I think about them quashing the trial judge’s order that they’ve telegraphed that this is not going to look good. I think DeSantis is going to win this.

Andy 37:54
Oh, yeah, I would agree with He’s going to win with it because the text isn’t terribly ambiguous, but I think it’s a shame because I think the voters they spoke and they’re having their their vote circumvented with this extra process.

Larry 38:09
Well, well, then. So you’re a purposivist are you?

Andy 38:12
I, I think that not everything is always black and white, as clear as it could be. But at the same time, then we should make sure that the politicians and the and the laws that they’re writing, fit all of these things the way that we need them to be, but I don’t like the casual person, in the United States, probably most of the world, they don’t give a crap about it. They’re like, I just want to vote Team Red Team Blue and move on with it and be damned the details. Which is unfortunate.

Larry 38:39
that is unfortunate. But most people as life has become more sophisticated. We have so many distractions in our lives, that very few people can devote the time it takes to be informed and I devote a lot of time and there’s many issues I’m not informed on. I mean, I couldn’t begin to deal with all the issues that comes before our legislature, hundreds of pieces of legislation go through every session. You can’t be an expert on all that stuff.

Andy 39:08
Nope. Are you ready for some hypocrisy?

Larry 39:11
I like this hypocrisy this comes from the Peach State.

Andy 39:15
Yay. Do you want to play the clip?

Larry 39:18
Yeah, let’s let’s let’s hear some hypocrisy.

Andy 39:20
All right.

News Reporter (Audio Clip) 39:22
Today Georgia governor Brian Kemp is defending his lawsuit against Atlanta Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms suing to block her city’s mask requirement.

(Audio Clip) 39:31
Georgians don’t need a mandate to do the right thing.

News Reporter (Audio Clip) 39:35
In the lawsuit Kemp calls the mandate unenforceable and is also moving to stop Atlanta from rolling back reopening measures. Bottoms who tested positive for covid herself calls the lawsuit bizarre.

Bottoms (Audio Clip) 39:52
It is an absolute waste of resources.

Andy 39:51
So if we were to let people like be responsible for themselves, we wouldn’t need speed limit signs just just as a example.

Larry 40:00
Well, the reason why we put this in the hypocrisy section is because usually the conservatives pride themselves in how much they defer to the knowledge and brilliance of the local governance because it’s closer to the people. (Andy: Sure.) And but you let the locals do something that they don’t agree with, and watch how fast they believe in state preemption. And it doesn’t matter if it’s this issue or other issues, I bring up minimum wage. They’re they’re they’re conservative control legislatures where the city or county within the state will put in a higher minimum wage. And they’ll go in and say we need to preempt this, but I thought you believed in local control. They’re closer to the people. And and they magically, they abandoned that principle. This was governor Kemp, who doesn’t have a lot of political experience. I don’t think I don’t remember his entire bio, but I don’t think he had a lot of experience.

Andy 40:54
He was the secretary of state.

Larry 40:58
Well, well, yeah. He was but in terms of I don’t think he ever served in the Georgia assembly. I don’t think you ever served in local government. But, but usually That’s the mantra of the conservatives that we believe in local control. And, okay, this is a deviation. I’d like to hear why this why this deviation is there because Atlanta has, as we keep hearing from the president. We have areas where there are huge infections, large rates of infection. And the national administration says, rather than having this having a total shutdown, we should go according to what what the circumstances are in that area. Okay, well, why doesn’t it work? the circumstances in Atlanta and Fulton County in much of the metro area, they’re having more difficult time with a concentrated population with a higher rate of infection so they’re needing more controls than what you need in outlying parts of Georgia. Why is it that the governor who believes in local control is willing to stop the elected officials who are closest to the scene in Atlanta from being able to make decisions that are in the best interest of Atlantans.

Andy 42:06
It would seem to me that they would want to base it on the circumstances of the area. If you’re out there in the middle of nowhere Georgia, and your nearest neighbor is the the cow farm next door, like you probably don’t need to wear a mask. But if you’re running around trying to ride MARTA, which is the the subway system thing in Georgia, in the Atlanta area, you you A) probably shouldn’t be riding that. But that would be where you would need a mask. Is in that kind of region. Why wouldn’t you want to base it on city slash county individual scenarios?

Larry 42:43
that’s the whole point. That’s what they say they’re for. The President has articulated his administration has articulated that we don’t need a nationwide shutdown. We’ll put out fires and we’ll go to hotspots and we’ll deal with it. Okay, I’m in. I’m in with you, Mr. President. That’s what we Okay, then why don’t you call out your governor of your party and ask him to defer to the wisdom and the expertise of the Atlanta health officials. I can tell you, being a Georgian that Atlanta has a very fine local government system. You may not agree with everything. But they are well equipped with a public health infrastructure. Grady Memorial Hospital, I don’t know if they’ve renamed the hospital but they have they have a massive health structure in Atlanta, the Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta. And they’re well equipped to analyze what’s going on in the city of Atlanta.

Andy 43:39
My understanding is there’s even a normalized nationwide green, red, yellow. I haven’t seen it. I just remember hearing about it maybe a week or two weeks ago, that you could look up, you know, Podunk County, Georgia and see what kind of status you’re in to give you some kind of normalized guidance that’s not using the state is providing this information. The State’s providing different information, it’s it’s normalized that you can, you know, red, yellow, green, that kind of gives you an indicator of how safe you should or shouldn’t be. Have you seen that?

Larry 44:10
I think I’ve, I’ve heard of it anyway. So, but, but But yeah, I’m I’m disappointed in the lawsuit. I agree with a mayor. It’s a waste of money.

Andy 44:18
Yeah. Isn’t this the same thing as like the feds don’t have control over the state of Georgia or New Mexico or any of the other 17 states that we do have. So, Kemp, the governor of the state is quote, unquote, President, the supreme leader of that state, doesn’t he have the authority to go No, you can’t do this, I’m in charge here?

Larry 44:42
Well, I don’t know if he does or doesn’t. that’s a question the court will answer, but I’m just talking about from a philosophical point of view, I’m calling out the hypocrisy of his of his intervention. He claims that his party claims that they believe that the locals are best equipped To make decisions, and of all the cities in Georgia, Atlanta would be the best equipped to make decisions because of all the infrastructure that they have in Atlanta, in terms of the health system that they have. So I just don’t understand.

Andy 45:14
I’m just trying to ask to see to see, like, I, I’m under the impression that he does have the authority to do it, and she is stepping out of bounds. Not, and I agree with her position, like, we need to mandate masks like it is constantly coming up on the news. It’s like, the thing we can do is wear masks and wash hands and we will be better off down the line, but we are being very stupid and arrogant and selfish and not wearing them. But that’s an entirely different conversation. So maybe we do need a little coaxing from the leader of that area to go, You need to be wearing a mask. It’s like mandated.

Larry 45:49
Well, I agree that that in most states, the executive can impose restrictions, but I don’t know. I guess the courts will tell us If they can extinguish restrictions that are locally imposed, that’ll be something for the courts to decide. But But clearly the the governor generally manages the state, day to day affairs, particularly in states that have part time legislatures. And that’s causing a lot of consternation here because our legislature is very part time. And people are irritated that our governor has caused a lot of things and businesses are dying. And they’re, they’re questioning whether the governor has that power, but the governor is the only one that’s on the job every day. So therefore, the governors have been empowered with an enormous amount of control in pandemics and public health emergencies. So I don’t know, I don’t know if the governor can preclude an extra protection. I think the governor could probably order protection, but I just don’t know how this is gonna play out. I think they’re kind of evenly matched the resources of the city of Atlanta should be should be comparable to the resources that the governor has to fight. So we’ll just see how this plays out in the court system.

Andy 46:56
One final thing I want to ask you can you relate this to the it’s at the Home Rule thing in Texas that when I first started following these events 2014, ‘16 about local counties or cities imposing greater registry restrictions versus what the state had. Is this comparable?

Larry 47:18
I don’t really think so because it’s coming about as a result of a public health emergency. I don’t I don’t think so.

Andy 47:24
isn’t having a bunch of sex offenders running around a public health emergency?

Larry 47:28
I don’t think so.

Andy 47:32
All right. And before we go, I can’t I can’t not play our favorite clip.

Lester Maddox (Audio Clip) 47:35
For you to come back and call bigots my admirers is a farce and an act of hypocrisy. It’s a terrible way to treat a guest on your show. And you know it.

Andy 47:47
Alright. I couldn’t, I couldn’t leave without playing that clip Larry.

Larry 47:48
And for those who don’t recognize the voice, that’s the late Georgia governor Lester Maddox from way back in the. Let’s see, his his reign of terror, I think was ‘67 through ‘70 and then he got elected as Lieutenant Governor when Jimmy Carter got elected governor he stepped down because he wasn’t allowed to succeed himself. And he served of ‘71 to ‘74 as Lieutenant governor, and then he tried to make a comeback in the election of ‘74 and he got beat in ‘74 in the primary by a relatively unknown name George Busby.

Andy 48:24
Yeah, got me on that one.

Larry 48:26
Now People people say How does he know all that stuff?

Andy 48:30
Cuz you spend all day reading foreign affairs magazine and public official whatever, because you were there. You’ve been in every state legislature. You’ve been a political advisor for every state legislature since the 1850s.

Larry 48:42
Well, I just can’t imagine that you wouldn’t know the history of the governors of your state, would you would you not?

Andy 48:46
This is not my state. Not trying to be here. I’m not trying to stay here.

Larry 48:51
but I’m talking about a person of their state. I mean, I I would think that you at least know the relatively recent history. 1966 is fairly recent Right?

Andy 49:03
I mean by your standards Sure. Not by anybody else. Ready to be a part of Registry Matters? Get links at registrymatters.co. If you need to be all discreet about it, contact them by email registrymatterscast@gmail.com you can call or text a ransom message to (747)227-4477 want to support Registry Matters on a monthly basis? Head to patreon.com/registrymatters. Not ready to become a patron? Give a five-star review at Apple podcasts or Stitcher or tell your buddies at your treatment class about the podcast. We want to send out a big heartfelt support for those on the registry. Keep fighting without you, we can’t succeed. You make it possible. All right, tell me about this next thing with a with some fear mongering.

Larry 50:01
Well, we had talked about on the podcast that that the reducing funds reallocating and reapportioning police that the police would fight back with every tool in their arsenal. And and they’d use scare tactics and even as vivid an imagination that I have, and it’s pretty vivid when it comes to scare tactics, I didn’t visualize this one. And this is a this is a campaign ad. I’ll let it speak for itself go ahead and play the play the spot. (Andy: Very good.)

(Aduio Clip) 50:35
You have reached the 911 Police emergency line. Due to defunding of the police department, we’re sorry, but no one is here to take your call. If you’re calling to report a rape, please press one, to report a murder Press two, to report a home invasion Press three, for all other crimes Leave your name and number and someone will get back to you. Our estimated wait time is currently five days. Goodbye.

Donald Trump (Audio Clip) 50:59
I’m Donald J. Trump and I approve this message.

Andy 51:05
Five days.

Larry 51:06
Now, now that is really a sad to put together something like that it’s just fear mongering at its worst. And if the Democrat Party runs something, that’s fear mongering, If you guys listening will submit it to us, We’ll be happy to run it. And I’ll say the same thing about the democrat ad. But this is scare tactics at its very finest to imply, I even resent the term defund the police. There’s no one talking about abolishing law enforcement. What’s being discussed as the proper role and the size of law enforcement and whether some of the functions that law enforcement are doing, could be better handled by by creating maybe another resource other than uniformed heavily armed police officers, but they use the term defunding. And I always like to buy into the other side’s arguments. And I want to join with the other side. And I’m willing to use the term defund the police, if you’ll join me hand in hand, and everything that the conservatives want to cut. And I can go down a litany of things that they like to cut that they don’t like, SNAP benefits, food stamps, they’ve been cutting those since Trump has been elected. Now, since the pandemic. They’ve restored some of the cuts, but but let’s call it defunding SNAP. The Corporation for Public Broadcasting, they have been trying for years, and they’ve been cutting the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. So let’s call that defunding. They don’t like aspects of Medicare and Medicaid. So let’s call that D funding. And if you already, Yes, but but let’s just be honest, and if you’re going to use that term defunding, then don’t get mad when we hit you back and say you’re wanting to defund Medicare, you’re wanting to defund Headstart, you’re wanting to defund SNAP, you’re wanting to… now they get really upset because they say that we’re accusing trying to scare people and saying that they’re trying to push granny off the cliff. Because when Medicare and Medicaid cuts are talked about, then there’s criticism that bad things will happen. But but let’s just use their terminology. Because I’m in, if you’re going to call it defunding the police, then let’s call the things you want to cut defunding. And if you’ll join me hand in hand, I’ll use your term and we’ll use it universally but everything you want to cut, we’re going to call it defunding.

Andy 53:37
Yeah, it is terribly unrepresentative of the saying defund the police of like, like no police anywhere, like there’s actually a legit role for the police. But not all things. I really don’t think that all traffic stops require all the tasers and the tactic like I just don’t think that that’s necessarily where the police resort like for that kind of event. There’s there’s I think there’s a different model.

Larry 54:01
I think so as well. And it’s sad, because I actually agree with with conservatives, if they would apply this principle across the board, if something’s not working, go take a look at it and try to figure out how to do it better. Well, normally (Andy: Let’s do more.), well, normally the conservatives do want that. They claim that’s what they believe in. But when it comes to prisons and law enforcement, they always want to throw more money at it. But if we want to throw more money at something be it Headstart be in Americore or be it whatever it is. They always tell us, those are failed experiments. Your public education is failing. Why do you just want to put more money into a sinkhole? Well, okay, I’m in with you on that. Why do you want to put more money into prisons? Why do you want to put more money into the police department, the police departments have not kept us safe by your rhetoric. You claim that crime is rampant, and we’re in danger any time we get near a window, even before we go out our door, you claim that so by your standards, police have failed. Prisons have failed. So why do you want to keep dumping more money into something that’s failed? I don’t understand it by your values, we would look at reallocating those funds, just as we would do with Headstart, just as we would do with SNAP. Just as all the things that you hate. Why do you not hold the same standard to things that you like?

Andy 55:30
I don’t know what to tell you. I just don’t have an answer for that one. I just don’t.

Larry 55:33
Well, they don’t either. When you ask them that they roll their eyes and then they try to come up with something that makes it different. But there is no difference. If if we are supposed to examine programs that are failing, and bureaucracies are failing. Let’s examine the police and prisons also, let’s examine the Department of Defense and find out if we can provide national security cheaper than what we’re doing today. Since we spend, I think it’s either seven the next seven or eight combined nations when you put their military appropriations, you combine the next seven or eight nations, we spend more than those combined.

Andy 56:10
You’re very unpatriotic to say that we should spend less money on our military.

Larry 56:14
I said we should try to do it more efficiently. I am in with the conservatives. As the late speaker, no he wasn’t speaker he was the Senate President ProTem in Texas, Ray Ferriby said about 30 years ago, If conservatism means anything fiscally, we need to apply that principle across the board.

Andy 56:31
Sure. But most most jurisdictions, like 50 ish percent of their budget is law enforcement.

Larry 56:39
That is correct.

Andy 56:40
That is a truckload of money. That is a truckload of money. So like Georg-, like, so does the Atlanta budget fall into the Georgia budget of those two separate things?

Larry 56:50
two separate things.

Andy 56:52
Oh my god. So Georgia has a $10 billion dollar or maybe 11 or 12 By now budget. So Atlanta is a completely separate entity. I can’t even fathom what their budget is. Several billion dollars?

Larry 57:02
I haven’t even any notion we could probably find it out during the podcast, but, but (Andy: sure.) but but Atlanta has taken some positive steps they’ve closed or in the process of closing their city jail. That’s a good first step. (Andy: Okay. Sure.) if you don’t, if you don’t have a city jail, it’s a lot more difficult to arrest people for petty offenses, because you’ve got to pay, you’ve got to pay to use the Blodged and yes, they could, they could use the Fulton County Jail, they could pay Fulton County would be glad to have the revenue. But that’s another line item in the budget. So they have completely closed or are in the process of closing the Atlanta city jail, that’s, that’s a good first step. Because we don’t need to be arresting people for all these petty offenses, we can give them citations.

Andy 57:46
And why did you put this next thing in here about the flag?

Larry 57:51
Just to have a little bit of a debate among our listeners, and I really like to hear the comments from people. Do you have a right to to, this is a fundamental question because let’s just play the clip, and then I’ll set it up better after we play the clip. (Andy: Very Good.)

News Reporter (Audio Clip) 58:10
Also breaking this evening, the Pentagon effectively banning the Confederate flag from US military installations just after President Trump said the flag was a representation of freedom of speech. And BC’s Courtney Kube has that story.

Courtney Kube (Audio Clip) 58:25
Tonight defense secretary Mark Esper, announcing the Confederate flag is no longer allowed to be publicly displayed on any military installations, a move many had been advocating for years.

Jackie Spears (Audio Clip) 58:42
The question you have to ask is why didn’t you do this? 20 years ago, 15 years ago?

Courtney Kube (Audio Clip) 58:47
Congresswoman Jackie spears.

Andy 58:48
I don’t think as a member of the military, you have all of those privileges and rights that you would as a standard nonmilitary citizen, like you can’t just go out randomly protests, you sure as hell can’t do it in uniform. So I don’t see how anybody thinks that they have like a freedom of speech if they’re actually under the, under the auspices of serving in the military.

Larry 59:10
Well, I was gonna expand that discussion to the workplace in general. (Andy: Right.) Do you have the right, and I’m not I’m not taking a position yet, do you have the right to fly or post anything when you’re at work? And I think we can agree that the military facilities they those are places of work. So would you would you have the right to fly the flag of your choosing at work? Would you have the right to post anything when you’re when you’re at work?

Andy 59:44
I would I would extend that ever so slightly to to the housing areas like you would probably have more liberties but you still have requirements on how to keep your lawn. You know, like you can’t have cars up on blocks like I mean, they seriously still control what you can and can’t even in base housing, but I’m certain it’s a lot more, there’s a lot more liberties there, but still, they’re going to very tightly control it. So flying a flag, probably not on the list of things that you can just randomly do.

Larry 1:00:10
Well, and that’s that’s where we get into the Constitution. And where do those rights end? And do you have the right in the constitution to never be made uncomfortable? It seems like that that’s an invented right that people say that this makes me uncomfortable. Well, would some listener please tell me in the Constitution where you have the right not to be uncomfortable? I wasn’t I wasn’t aware that there was such a right.

Andy 1:00:33
And you’re talking about so you walk by a confederate flag and it makes you feel uncomfortable? That’s violating my rights?

Larry 1:00:40
Yes. People say that I have the right, If you do that, it makes me uncomfortable. But where do you have the right to be comfortable? that no one has the right to make you uncomfortable. What where’s that enshrined in the constitution?

Andy 1:00:53
Sure. But it’s my freedom of speech, man. And if you were flying your flag, then my speech is curtailed, therefore you’re violating my rights. see how I did that?

Larry 1:01:02
Well, how does how does flying the flag curtail your speech rights?

Andy 1:01:05
I don’t, I don’t know, I was just trying to make up some bs excuse.

Larry 1:01:09
But but that’s where the struggle is because because no one wants a hostile workplace. And an employer should not want a hostile workplace because it would suppress productivity and the efficiency of the operation. So, you wouldn’t want that. But where is it enshrined that you have the right not to be the least bit uncomfortable?

Andy 1:01:30
Don’t though that’s a whole big sliding scale of what offends me if you if you want to come into work wearing all of your gay pride that could make me feel uncomfortable. The workplace could say that you can’t do all that stuff, either.

Larry 1:01:43
Well, that’s that’s why I’m I’m saying that the employer probably has significant rights in terms of curtailing what they will accept in their place of employment. Because after all, you have a choice. You really don’t have to work there. You don’t have to join the military. You haven’t had to join the military since 1973 when we abolished the draft, so so you you have a choice about about where you work in this country. But if if the workplace doesn’t make that choice, and I think they should not have hostility in the workplace, but if they choose not to make that decision where do you have the right in the constitution to be comfortable?

Andy 1:02:26
I understand your point. But what is it so? All right then let me just point out blankly ask, Are you in favor of them banning the Confederate flag or are you not in favor of it?

Larry 1:02:37
I’m in favor of it. I just said that, I don’t think that the things that that are that generate a hostile or an uncomfortable work environment. It’s not no business should want that in their workplace. You should not want that. But what a business should do is different than what you have a constitutional right to. I’m hearing arguments, I have a constitutional right. That what you’re doing is making me uncomfortable. I’m not familiar with that right. That’s like the right that the person says, I have the right to know that you’re on the sex offender registry. Where does that right? Where is that right? illuminate me, help me understand where you have the right not to be comfortable in a country where speech is considered a fundamental right and expression. Those would clash because there would be people who would speak and express in ways that you wouldn’t agree with that would make you uncomfortable.

Andy 1:03:29
I am following you 100%. We have a clip that I don’t know where we’re supposed to play it play it. Where are we going to do the Rush clip, Larry?

Larry 1:03:39
Oh, the rush clip. I haven’t thought about that. Yes, we might. We might we might hold him for a little while. Oh, Rush, Rush was making some comments on his program yesterday about he was trying to draw an analogy about the mask requirement and he was trying to relate it to the AIDS epidemic back in the 80s. But but but yeah, I think we’ll hold that one, let’s let’s stay on the sex stuff with the poor teacher, the poor beauty queen, and I mean that literally I’m not being facetious in any way.

Andy 1:04:06
All right, well, here’s a clip that some, a listener sent in from I mean, if you want to talk about some right leaning publication this comes from the…

Larry 1:04:14
Well let’s do the plea first when she did the plea. This is a beauty queen in Kentucky that ended up entered, so the one on top would be the first one because that’s when she did the plea. And then the other one was where she comes back to sentencing so the Blaze is not a liberal, leftist outfit.

Andy 1:04:33
Not even a little bit. But here’s the clip.

News Reporter (Audio Clip) 1:04:36
Andrew Jackson middle school teacher and former Miss Kentucky Ramsey Bearse entered a guilty plea this afternoon in Kanawha County Circuit Court. She was arrested last year accused of sending nude pictures to a minor 13 News reporter Nikki Walters was in the courtroom.

Nikki Walters (Audio Clip) 1:04:52
It’s been just over a year since Ramsey Bearse was charged with four counts of sending obscene material to a minor. Today, she was in court to plead guilty to one count of possession of material depicting minors in sexually explicit conduct. Bearse was emotional and court she stood next to her attorney as she told Kanawha County Circuit Judge Duke bloom, The first photo she sent to a former student through the social media app Snapchat wasn’t intended for the student.

Ramsey Bearse (Audio Clip) 1:05:22
I accidentally sent this young man a risqué photo that was meant for my husband. The young man’s name was listed next to my husband’s name on my phone.

Nikki Walters (Audio Clip) 1:05:34
she said when the minor asked her for more pictures, she panicked and continued to send photos. Eventually, he sent her a photo of his genitals. She says she didn’t keep the photo or share it with anyone else.

Ramsey Bearse (Audio Clip) 1:05:49
I’m so sorry and he was just a teenager. It was definitely my fault, and I accept the full blame for the situation.

Nikki Walters (Audio Clip) 1:05:55
Bearse faces the possibility of a minimum penalty of up to two years in prison. And a maximum of 50 years’ probation. Bearse would also have to register as a sex offender. In Charleston, I’m Nikki Walters 13 News working for you.

Andy 1:06:11
50 years of probation?

Larry 1:06:12
The reason why I put that in there is because the minimum in the state of West Virginia, I think it’ West Virginia, right?

Andy 1:06:20
It is.

Larry 1:06:22
this is again, an example of where judicial discretion has been obliterated by a mandatory minimum. In this state, it would be so unlikely that that person would ever go to prison, Because being a teacher means that she’s got no criminal history, or she wouldn’t be licensed. Right?

Andy 1:06:46
Fair. I don’t know. But I’ll accept that.

Larry 1:06:48
Well, well, it Unless Unless West Virginia is one of the I don’t know of any state that doesn’t do background checks, and they’ve gone to doing follow up background checks on a routine basis to make sure teachers have picked up Any any criminal convictions or arrests. The odds are very good that she has no criminal history. (Andy: Sure) the behavior is very minuscule on the scale of what you’d want to lock a person up in a cage for. (Andy: Right?) Because she’s not likely to do this again. I would be very surprised if they didn’t revoke her certificate to teach already because this was over a year ago that this happened. (Andy: Yeah) so she’s she’s already out of the classroom. She’s already never going to have any contact in that setting again. No school’s ever gonna hire her again. And so she has to get a new life. her reputation Miss Miss Kentucky right? Miss that was Miss Kentucky?

Andy 1:07:43
Miss Kentucky. I bet you She will have to like give up her title.

Larry 1:07:46
So she’s destroyed. And the fact that you people in West Virginia are so damn vindictive, that you require a person to go to prison is just mind boggling to me. Like I say here that would be so unlikely she would get present time they would have to be something draconian that would come out in a PSR presentence report, or they would have to be some facts that would have been illuminated that she would have agreed to, in the plea that she did. And from the way she presented that, if it truly was an accident, and I can attest to I’ve actually sent things to the wrong people to the wrong person, not what she sent, I don’t think, but I have sent things I didn’t intend to people before. And and, and she did make the mistake and error in judgment of not when she, when the kid responded, and she should have said, Sorry, delete that. You know, that was a mistake. But this this is just mind boggling to me. A life ruined for what?

Andy 1:08:46
For some risqué photos that she intended to send to her hubby.

Larry 1:08:52
So, I don’t understand it. I do not understand why she’s been hauled off to prison. And I saw on the YouTube comments that We’re gonna play the other clip. Yeah, but I saw the YouTube comments about how such a disparity they feel if it was a guy, it would have been 10 years. If it was a guy here, it wouldn’t have been 10 years. If it was a male here, it would have been the exact same outcome, it would have been probation. If there was no prior criminal history, but go ahead with another clip.

News Reporter 1 (Audio Clip) 1:09:18
Just days before a new Miss America is crowned, a former contestant is in front of a judge, admitting she sexted with a 15-year-old boy. The former beauty queen who represented Kentucky at Miss America admits she sent inappropriate photos to a student.

News Reporter 2 (Audio Clip) 1:09:34
A former Miss Kentucky breaks down in tears as she admits to sending sexually provocative photos to a 15-year-old boy

Ramsey Bearse (Audio Clip) 1:09:42
since I’m an adult, and he was just a teenager. It was definitely my fault and I accept the full blame for this situation. I messed up big time.

News Reporter 2 (Audio Clip) 1:09:53
In 2014, Ramsay Carpenter wowed judges in the Miss America Pageant with her beauty employs, her talent was playing the fiddle. She reached the semifinals. After Miss America Carpenter married Chazz Bearse, the son of a coal tycoon and moved to West Virginia and became an eighth-grade science teacher.

(Audio Clip) 1:10:12
You’re sending nude photos to your students.

News Reporter 2 (Audio Clip) 1:10:15
He stood by her when she was arrested.

Ramsey Bearse (Audio Clip) 1:10:17
My husband was working all the time, and was too distracted and overwhelmed with work to pay attention to me.

News Reporter 2 (Audio Clip) 1:10:23
the 29 year old claimed she meant to send the first risqué photo to her husband and sent it by accident to the teenager, her former student, but she continued sending other photos. She claimed the student asked for more and she was afraid to not appease him

Ramsey Bearse (Audio Clip) 1:10:38
I messed up big time.

News Reporter 1 (Audio Clip) 1:10:40
The former Miss Kentucky faces two years in prison when she’s sentenced next month along with as much as 50 years’ probation, and she’ll be required to register as a sex offender.

Andy 1:10:55
That’s just incredible.

Larry 1:10:57
So yeah, I was thinking she’d already been sentenced. I thought that was what the clip was gonna say that she had but…

Andy 1:11:02
yeah, I think that the the TV clip the audio clip that we just had is was recorded long before because so she was sentenced the article that we had is from July 17, which is from yesterday. A friend of mine sent it to me so that’s when that’s how it got put in the in the show. So a former Miss Kentucky was sentenced to two years in jail after it was discovered she was sending sexual photos to a teenager. What I thought was really interesting in there though, Larry is that she said that my husband was working all the time. And he was overwhelmed and like she felt neglected. I bet you could overlay that onto the other side of that equation on guys going after some extra partner kind of activity. I bet you that applies there as well.

Larry 1:11:47
It probably does. That would not have been advice I would have given for someone to say in court. And again, that’s a part of prep for sentencing. You you would not want a person to say that.

Andy 1:11:58
Yeah, like you’re totally admitting like, I don’t know. Anyway, so you were seeking attention from a teenager? I got it. All right.

Larry 1:12:04
Yeah, that just isn’t a good selling point to. To make that argument, it may be true. It may be something you work out in therapy, if you can actually get some decent therapy. The sex offender regime is so horrible that usually they try to interfere with you having any real therapists so they can put you in their collaborative fishing expedition to revoke you, but if she could get some good therapy to deal with that, but but that’s just not something that would generally be advisable to say at sentencing.

Andy 1:12:32
Yep. All right. We have an article from the New York Times that the government has carried out its first execution in 17 years, and I think this is a teeny bit dated Larry. So this is from July 14, they executed three people this week, if I’m not mistaken.

Larry 1:12:47
Yeah, they had they had a list of four or five they were to go through in quick order, and then they’re, they’re willing to the list because the Supreme Court is not intervening on these last minute, on these last minute appeals. The Supreme Court It’s it’s not interested in that because as you just heard Scalia say earlier on the podcast that capital punishment is not unconstitutional.

Andy 1:13:09
And why has this been on hold for so long?

Larry 1:13:13
We’ve had we’ve had an intense debate through the last couple decades, 17 years, and we had a liberal do-good administration that wasn’t in favor of the death penalty for the eight years Obama was in office. But even even George W. Bush wasn’t fond of of the executions, although he did allow them to take place in Texas as governor, but we ended up we end up with a different administration and the Attorney General we currently have says that the sentences need to be carried out. And as much as I detest the death penalty. There is some logic to that. If it’s a horrible public policy, and you carry it out, perhaps it’ll trigger broad resentment at the polls and we’ll actually eliminate this as a public policy. But yes, that’s what the Attorney General says. We’re gonna we’re gonna execute these people because that’s what the penalties were imposed.

Andy 1:14:03
I thought that they were, these were all on hold as because we were using a three drug cocktail and now, like, my understanding is the companies that manufacture that are opposed to it being used in that way. And so they have stopped selling it in the United States, making it available to the United States. So my understanding is then that the United States is then drumming up their own way to do its pentobarbital. And I believe that’s how they put animals to sleep. And so they’re just using a single method and people have been challenging it because the the the executions have been botched where people are like waking up screaming in pain and all this stuff. It’s like been a pretty dramatic thing that that’s why they that’s why I thought they were on hold was because of that.

Larry 1:14:48
Well it has been more recently, but in the 17 years since there’s been no federal execution that hasn’t been in debate.

Andy 1:14:54
Oh, oh, oh so I guess I’m thinking of like state level executions. This is okay, I see the difference. I see what you’re saying. I didn’t realize that that was the case there.

Larry 1:15:03
Yeah, these are federal executions. The Federal death penalty has been reinstated. And we did, We did that after McVeigh blew up the Murrah building over in Oklahoma City in ‘96. We had to make sure we we brought the death penalty back to the forefront. And when they passed the anti, let’s see, what’s it called AEDPA, the anti-terrorism and effective death penalty act of 1996. So that’s when they put severe restrictions on on federal access to federal courts to challenge your state court convictions. They limited habeas corpus proceedings in that AEDPA legislation back in ‘96.

Andy 1:15:39
I see. Oh, now I understand. I didn’t I didn’t realize the significance of the of the two different echelons there. I got it now though. Interesting. So do you Okay, so is this like I realized the executive is the executive and he can say yea or nay to believe that this is a Barr thing, or is this a Trump thing?

Larry 1:15:58
Well, Being that at the federal level, the Attorney General serves at the pleasure of the President, unlike at the state level where they’re independently elected. In a state, you’re only going to have an appointed attorney general if there’s a vacancy arises during the course of the term. So I always say anything the US Attorney General does is a direct reflection on the president because the president all he has to do is say, Mr. Attorney General that’s not the policy of this administration. And so the Attorney General, in my view of the United States Attorney General, is carrying out the mandate that he’s received from from from the president.

Andy 1:16:35
I’m more inclined to think that this is not him acting unilaterally, but him saying he wants to do it and him not getting any roadblocks to it. That would be my personal take. But that’s just me. So that’s lovely. Let’s move over to an article from the Washington Post, which I have a clip for. Oh, wait, I do have to play this one. We have to play this one really quick. That cracks me up Larry. Why, why are we playing that clip for this?

Larry 1:17:14
Well, because of the relatively heinous nature of holding the gun to the, to the handcuffed man’s head because he wouldn’t give his name. And to the credit of the people in Florida, I believe this was Florida, they’re doing the right thing. They’re, they’re actually holding the officer accountable. And that was the only point I wanted to make is that all these protests will die down if we start having accountability for when police do things when they when they say I got my rights, and there’s no accountability, that’s when you have civil unrest. When you start holding them accountable, you’ll find that that’ll die away because that’s all people want is for people who are wearing the uniform to be held accountable when they mess up.

Andy 1:18:00
Now I realized that this is super left leaning tree hugging Washington Post but says a sergeant with the Hillsborough County Sheriff’s Office in Tampa has been fired and charged with a felony after aiming his gun inches from a handcuffed black man’s head and threatening to kill him if the man did not give him his name, according to the sheriff, like give me your name? No, I’m going to kill you if you don’t give me your name. How does that happen Larry?

Larry 1:18:26
I don’t know. But it’s the responses are…(Andy: It’s so ridiculous.) they were very prompt and they were they were they were very thorough and that’s all we’re asking for is that cops are human beings and they will make mistakes. Sometimes they got through the screening process and they shouldn’t have. Or they’ll just make that they’ll just make bad judgment calls just like other mortals and they have to be held accountable just like the person who’s putting on makeup or texting, and they have no intention of running over a child that’s riding a skateboard And they do it, we have to hold that driver accountable. Now we don’t hold them accountable with malice, like the person who pulls the trigger, I mean pulls the gun and holds it to the head and says, I’m going to kill you. But that’s all we want is for the officer to be held accountable.

Andy 1:19:17
And we in we’re not going to get to an article tonight on how do we hold them accountable. And people talk about putting up registries for the place, but I don’t I still can’t figure out why when you go from California where you killed 17 people over 20 years because we had an officer that was like that, something like that. Like I think it was two or three people. And then so you then go to another state you pick Minnesota and like hey, I’d like to apply for a job here and no one’s question like, Hey, what’s your previous? Why doesn’t anybody go, well have you killed anybody at your last job? No, we don’t want you here. Like how does that not happen?

Larry 1:19:49
Well, I I’m sure that that they do have a screening process but what happens with with it would be like any former employer Employee relationship. A litigation is a fear. So therefore, if you get rid of a bad officer, why would you want to cause that officer any grief that they’re gonna come back and sue you? So it’s like goodbye Good riddance. It would be the the the church, particularly the Catholic Church, they moved him around the country, they, the priest, and the when there’s a lot of people who get jobs that probably shouldn’t have gotten jobs because the previous employer doesn’t report that but there’s talk of some sort of registry and and a registry doesn’t have to be punitive boy, this should generate plenty of hate mail this week. Merely the act of registering someone doesn’t have to be punitive. We register young men for Selective Service. We register, I mean, we could spend the rest of this podcast which we’re at the end of already, but we could go on and on about registry. There’s a flint children registry for the children of Flint, their registry is not designed to punish those children. That registry is designed so that since those children were largely from urban poverty, that we can keep track of those children and find out what sort of developmental problems they are encountering, and how we can try to keep them connected to services. A registry doesn’t have to be punitive. Now, having said that, almost every sex offender registry is because that’s the way it’s designed to be punitive and it’s disguised as non-punitive, but barely putting someone in a database. If you don’t tell the officer you can’t work anywhere else. You can’t live anyplace else. You can’t be present anywhere else. If they don’t put all those restrictions, just merely having a compellation of the officers transgressions. And it would be available to any law enforcement entity that might be considering a relationship with an officer. I can’t see held that would be viewed as punitive. It would be up public service that would help the officer to move on to other stages of his or her life. Because you really aren’t fit to be a police officer. The same thing I’d say about a teacher, that teacher texting a student, whether it was intentional or unintentional, we got to be very careful but having a teacher like that in the classroom, around kids, but that doesn’t mean that her life should be destroyed. The officer’s life doesn’t have to be destroyed because they can’t be police work. What is there about another thousand job classifications in united states that they could engage it? The registry of officers doesn’t have to be punitive.

Andy 1:22:37
All right, then from mynews13.com. We have an article that was submitted over on the discord server by a listener. It says sex offenders could be barred from certain businesses If a Brevard Commissioner gets his way. The title of the article says it’s from Orlando I have no idea where Brevard County is does that resonate with you?

Larry 1:22:55
I don’t know the geographic, geographic, geography of Florida but I know I hear that county quite often. So I’m thinking it’s an urban County. It’s probably it’s probably near southern Florida probably near Broward. I’m betting if you look it up on the map, it’s probably near Broward County.

Andy 1:23:08
Oh, now you’re gonna make me do it. Um, so so so this this is some sort of local ordinance, whatever that would make it so that PFRs cannot even go into different kinds of businesses. And there’s a paragraph in here that I wanted to bring up. It’s like the Obloy, O-b-l-o-y, Obloy family ranch owner, Eric Obloy, said he’s excited about being part of a new voluntary registry certifying their business as a place where children regularly congregate, which would restrict sex offenders and sexual predators from coming within 1000 feet of the business coming within. That doesn’t mean that they can’t come in. They can’t be within 1000 feet of the business, which is a fifth of a mile. That’s a pretty good distance.

Larry 1:23:51
Well, I’m hoping I’m hoping that this would not be passed, but I’m hoping also hoping if it is passed and enacted that the businesses themselves begin to challenge it because it’s not your right to prohibit a person from doing business with someone. I mean, we do have free commerce in this country. And it’s the same thing I’ll say about apartment complexes, you know, if I were that business, again, I would be saying it’s none of the government’s business, who we rent to, if they’ve got a prior conviction for whatever that conviction is, that’s assessment we make in consultation with our ownership and with regard to our our interest here, and it’s not a governmental decision about whether we have a relationship and same thing about businesses. I don’t think the government has any business or the authority to tell a business who can be near it or who can be in it.

Andy 1:24:46
And moving over to the Atlantic, John Roberts is just who the Supreme Court needed. The Chief Justice has worked to persuade his colleagues to put institutional legitimacy above partisanship. Why did you put this crazy Kabuki article in here? This is all a super left leaning rag of the Atlantic.

Larry 1:25:04
Well, that’s all the more reason why you put it in there because John Roberts was appointed by a conservative president back in 2005-06 somewhere in that mid Bush term and the the, the fact of the matter is of the conservative bloc on the court, he has proven himself to be a pragmatist. He’s proven himself to be deeply concerned about the legitimacy of the court and not allow the court to become a an Obama court or a Trump court, or conservative versus liberal. And he’s made decisions that as an Associate Justice that he might have been uncomfortable with, but it’s the Chief Justice when his vote has been needed. He has made decisions that were that were in keeping the legitimacy of the court and the non-politicization of the court. And I just thought it was really remarkable that a left leaning rag would be this complimentary of Chief Justice Roberts and that’s why I put it in there that he’s been the right person at the right time to keep the court from going over the deep end completely.

Andy 1:26:08
And remind me of the term is this Stare decisis of using precedent to to inform how you vote? (Larry: Yes.) Is that the right term? Okay. (Larry: Yes. Yes.) And and so I think we’ve covered recently that Thomas, who I think there was an article that he he authored the decision, and then is turning back saying we shouldn’t honor precedent against the thing that he wrote the decision about, I think that’s what it sounded like. There’s a movie called Inception for anybody that’s like follows 20-year-old movies with Leonardo DiCaprio. But I was just I think that’s really odd that the person that wrote a decision would then be the one that’s going back and saying, No, we shouldn’t follow what we said we did before.

Larry 1:26:52
So yeah, I think I vaguely remember that but I mean, clearly if you if you if you’ve gotten it wrong, there’s not a problem. But But if if it’s merely a political decision, and you haven’t gotten this, I mean Plessy versus Ferguson was wrong and it took them decades with Brown versus Board of Education to to undo Plessy but just because you don’t like a decision that doesn’t make it wrong, and the conservative bloc has a lot of decisions that they do not like and they have been setting about unraveling them, particularly the area of of reproductive rights, abortion and and the business as far as the collective bargaining rights. They’ve been chipping away at collective bargaining that the the requirement to pay union dues, you know, the union has to represent everybody and that opens up a whole Pandora’s box but but but they’ve they’ve they’ve eliminated the requirement that you pay for your your fair share apportionment because I shouldn’t have to pay money to the union to represent me if I don’t want it.

Andy 1:27:57
Right, right. Let’s move over, back over to the Washington Post, and I just want to put this one in there because it’s kind of silly. It’s a disabled black veteran drove through Alabama with medical marijuana. Now he faces five years in prison. I’m going to assume that Alabama doesn’t have medical marijuana and he was traveling through so he was driving from Florida somewhere west where they do have it and he got jammed up for something and now he’s in in trouble huh?

Larry 1:28:24
I would say that that would be a pretty good guess. And we are guessing so if anybody in Alabama wants to take issue, just send the facts in and we’ll clarify. But I’m guessing that he was asked, Do you mind, you don’t mind if I search do you? And and he if he objected, then they would have called for a canine and done the sniff and then they would have searched anyway. Based on the canine always magically alerts and then they found the marijuana and he may have not understood that your card in one state doesn’t make it legal in another

Andy 1:29:00
Okay, hey, let’s let’s let’s let’s play this out as being something with a firearm. So let’s take the most left leaning, you know, a New York kind of state where they don’t want any sort of any sort of handguns. You know, whatever those extremes are. I don’t even know what the rules are. But you’re coming from a state where you’re out in the boonies and like everyone’s required to carry a gun and you go drive through New York and you get pulled over and like, well, what’s that? Well, that’s my gun, and there’s the thing of reciprocity. And so I’m reading here in the article it says I explained to him that Alabama did not have medical marijuana. The police report said according to Appleseed, I then placed the suspect in handcuffs. If we were to portray this scenario with a gun rights thing, I bet you everyone would lose their minds and like, I’ve got my rights to own a gun. And just because I’m driving through New York, you can’t tell me I can’t have a gun. I’m from Wyoming, Minnesota, wherever. And you wouldn’t get jammed up for the gun there. I suspect.

Larry 1:29:58
Actually you would, but that is an ongoing legal debate about about whether the, what Trump’s in terms of what rights you have under the Second Amendment. And if you’re if you’re a citizen of Georgia validly carrying a concealed and you’re in a jurisdiction doesn’t have that, who controls and that is very much a live controversy right now.

Andy 1:30:24
And you, and you can’t know all laws against all counties and cities that you are participating in, though knowing that you have medical marijuana, you know that most places still more than half of the states don’t have legalized marijuana of any sort. So I don’t know. Do you think that this is just someone making a really poor decision?

Larry 1:30:45
Well, no, I think that it’s unfortunate of our 50 state, federal, federal system where we have where we have all these different laws. I think that we can fix this by passing if the big old bad federal government would pass a law that says that the states have to recognize now that would be very hard to do because there’ll be extreme opposition, depending on what you’re recognizing. The conservative states would be in all in favor of passing that to force recognition of their gun permits, but they would be less inclined on the on the drug side. Yeah, if you’ve tried to force your liberal agenda down in Alabama, on the drug side, they’d say now, that’s a decision that the people in the state of Alabama need to be making. We don’t need that federal government telling us what we got to do down here. But that’s probably really the only thing you can do short of an interstate compact agreement with the states that they will grant reciprocity on the weapons or on the on the marijuana cards would be if you could pass a federal law that says that there’s recognition for those, and I don’t even know if that would be constitutional, but but there’s no way you can know all that stuff.

Andy 1:31:52
Yeah, and just for my own little correction it says recreational use is legal in 11 states iand DC but medicinal use is allowed in 33 states. That was a little self-correction on the fly. I think you were probably gonna point that out to me.

Larry 1:32:05
So and of course for the transcriber, how do you spell Federal [spoken with heavy accent]? when he gets down to…

Andy 1:32:10
F-E-D-E-R-A-E-L. Federael.

Larry 1:32:13
And then, government, how do you spell government [spoken with heavy accent]?

Unknown Speaker 1:32:19
G-U-B-B-M-E-N-T. Gubbment.

Larry 1:32:22
Alright, let’s wrap this thing up.

Andy 1:32:24
Yeah, I was gonna say we should probably wrap this up because it’s about that time. Anything else you want to cover? Just before we get out of here?

Larry 1:32:28
I think that we did a splendid job, we’ll recognize Well, I think we got seven or eight new patrons this week, didn’t we?

Andy 1:32:36
we at least have one. And so we can recognize WVRSOL. You guys and gals are awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the support. Do you want to tell them because they came in at a level that gets you a certain perk that you are introducing? Do you want to talk about that real quick?

Larry 1:32:52
Sure. That’s a good thing. I had forgotten all about that. At Registry Matters Podcast we’re trying to figure out how to grow the podcast. Because we haven’t been growing at the rapid rate we would like to see. And we’re receiving inquiries from from prisoners, they see it in the NARSOL newsletter and they don’t know how that they can listen to it because without a smuggled cell phone, you can’t listen to it. And there are plenty of smuggled cell phones in prisons but I don’t know if that’s how they want to use their their time is listening to an hour and a half podcast. But But what we’ve decided to do is that for those patron supporters out there, that are already supporting us, if you are a member of NARSOL, and you want us to send a transcript to a loved one, all you have to do is request it. $10 a month or more, we will send it to a person of your choosing. If you’re not a member of NARSOL, it’s going to cost you a minimum patron level of $15 a month to get the same thing. And I’ve started launching that sent out the first couple yesterday afternoon for people who’ve requested them, and and we’ll handle all the administration now you could technically do this yourself, you could actually all you have to do is have large envelopes, a good printer where you can print 35, 40 pages, a postage scale so that you can figure out what the weight is, and a mix of stamps so you can put the right postage on there and the dedication to send it out weekly, you could do that and avoid that. But the hard cost is going to be about 10 bucks a month to us, and probably a little bit more if we if we factor in everything, but our hope is that more people in prison will see the content of what we talk about, and that they will let others know that there is such a thing and that it will grow the listenership and ultimately grow the patrons support. So that’s the offer to you guys. If you’re at $10 or more, and you want the podcast transcript to go to someone, just send it to registrymatterscast@gmail.com and we will we will set that up to start happening.

Andy 1:35:00
Fanfreakintastic. Again, thank you West Virginia for that. That’s really awesome and so very much appreciated. And Larry, we record the show live usually on Saturday nights, unless of course you’re not feeling well and we start early but then the power goes out which then we ended up kind of recording at the same normal time. Anyway, you can join the discord server if you’re a patron and listen live. But if you can’t listen live, you can always do so on demand, which is the whole point, listen to on demand. We want to make it available to you at your convenience. If you would do me a favor and subscribe. You can do this in your favorite podcast app on Apple or Google or Stitcher, wherever. And we also have a YouTube channel. You can listen and subscribe there. But we want to make sure that you get the episode the minute we post it. It’ll come right down to you on your device. So you’ll have it in plenty of time for your Tuesday morning commute. And let’s go over like you can find the podcast at registrymatters.co and Larry what’s the way to leave voicemail?

Larry 1:35:54
747-227-4477

Andy 1:35:59
And you can email us at registrymatterscast@gmail.com and we love all of our listeners, Larry, but we want to encourage people to become patrons and how do people become patrons?

Larry 1:36:10
Very carefully by going to, to the proper website. And, and signing up.

Andy 1:36:18
which is registry, excuse me, patreon.com/registrymatters. That’s why you didn’t say it you threw it back over to my court and I botched it.

Larry 1:36:26
No, actually, I was scrolling down to make sure I had it right. And by the time I’m like, well I gotta say something here to buy myself a couple of seconds. So patreon.com/registrymatters or you can just go to patreon.com and search for Registry Matters.

Andy 1:36:43
You can do that too. Larry, as always, you are an immense amount of information and I greatly appreciate the time that we spend and with that, I bid you a happy and healthy Saturday night.

Larry 1:36:53
Good night, everyone.
Andy 1:36:54
Bye.

 


Transcript of RM135: Petition for Removal from the Registry

Listen to RM135: Petition for Removal from the Registry

Andy 0:00
You know, I always ask you about the weather and I don’t really ever want to ask you about the weather just to make small talk, but it’s frickin’ hot in Albuquerque.

Larry 0:30
What is the official reading as we record?

Andy 0:34
Let me go back it was 107 or something like that. it’s 109 now, so it’s gone up like two degrees in like the last half hour or so. And it’s humid.

Larry 0:45
Well thankfully not but but I’ll tell you you go out there and lay yourself out on some asphalt at 109 and tell me what happens.

Andy 0:53
You will probably roast like cooked like a much, much watchamajooky, an egg or something. You’d be a scrambled egg.

Larry 1:00
It’s pretty warm and the airport is the official reading station I’m guessing it would be at a couple degrees cooler at the airport unless it is an airport reading but but still it’s it’s it’s steamy, but this is the hot time of the year for us. The the latter part of June and the first half of July is the hot weather and then we go into a monsoonal pattern where the afternoon showers roll in over the Sandias and then we have we have the effect of the monsoons and it keeps the temperatures down for the remainder of the summer. The only problem is sometimes we don’t have a monsoon season and the prolonged hot goes on and on. But this year, I’m thinking we might have the regular pattern develop later this month.

Andy 1:44
I’m wondering if you have something along the lines of a Uh Oh, I had a thought and then I lost it.

Larry 1:53
It’s called Alzheimer’s.

Andy 1:55
Holy crap. It was like I was I had something super snarky and awesome to say to you and then Like poof, gone. Well, great. We’re off to a good start. Maybe I should take notes. I should write down things as we start. Like if I have a thought I should write it down that way I Don’t forget about it.

Larry 2:11
That sounds like a great idea.

Andy 2:14
Do we have a look through the show notes for the for the night Larry I think we have a pretty neat little rundown of articles and things to talk about. I think that we should dive right in. You ready?

Larry 2:26
I’m ready.

Andy 2:34
All right. Now, what is this a late breaking news, crap, silliness that you’ve put in here that you want to talk about?

Larry 2:40
What we’re going to touch on briefly is the President of the United States used his executive powers to commute the sentence of Roger Stone. And I had so little knowledge about what Roger Stone had done. I asked you this afternoon to please tell me what he what he was convicted of doing because he had been sentenced to 14 months in federal prison. And the President commuted that sentence. And he was just released yesterday evening. Late Friday, which is a great time to, to release news that may be unpopular. But I did… Go ahead.

Andy 3:14
Go ahead. Well, he came under whatever the purview of the Mueller investigation and appeared before Congress and they say he lied and he was convicted of lying.

Larry 3:28
I don’t really like that that type of conviction. I don’t I don’t believe that people would. When you’re when you’re given information about something happened in the past, it’s difficult not to lie because perceptions can differ about what what happened, and a person may have a recollection that is, is as far as they’re concerned, that’s what they remember. And I just, I just I’m not a fan of that charge. I wasn’t a fan of it when Martha Stewart was convicted. I’m not a fan of that charge. But that wasn’t why I put it in here, I’m not here to even get into the debate about whether he helped with, something that seemed like he was in the WikiLeaks in the fray of that, when I glanced over the article you put in, but I’m not here to opine about that. I wanted to talk merely about the the commutation. I disagree vehemently with the Democrat Party. So those listeners out there who who say we never criticized the Democratic Party, I do it repeatedly, including tonight. I don’t believe that, that Leader Pelosi or leader Schumer are correct, and I think Pelosi has been the most vocal. I don’t I don’t think that if anything we’ve learned is that the criminal justice system has a component of overzealousness, particularly at the federal level. So rather, if Leader Pelosi had done what I would have preferred, she would have said Mr. President, you’ve used her powers to commute the sentence of this person. And the Democrat Party has long since long since been concerned about overzealous prosecution and overreach of the federal prosecutors offices, which you are, in fact, the head of. And what we would like to do is work in a bipartisan fashion with you, Mr. President, to deal with the systemic abuse of over prosecution. I would preferred that as a comment from Leader Pelosi than just saying that he was abusing the powers and he was doing all these awful things and making it a major political thing. Why not, Let’s try to reform the system and see if we can get the president and Schumer on board with… Trump has acknowledged from time to time that prosecutions are over the top Okay, Mr. Trump, if you’re really really serious about that, let’s see if we can do something about it systemically.

Andy 5:44
You don’t think that there’s something to be said for him commuting the sentence of his close personal buddy-buddy for like forever?

Larry 5:57
Well, you could get into the nuances of why he did it. But But the point of matter is he’s allowed to do it. (Andy: Yeah.) that’s that’s a power that’s enshrined to the president to commute and to pardon, and as far as I’m concerned, until someone can show me where there’s limitations, there’s no limitations contained in the Constitution.

Andy 6:16
I wonder, I would just like to think back, let’s go back four years and had Obama done something similar and commuted some personal friend, longtime, whatever. You can imagine a, a certain kind of uproar of saying that oh, my God, this is the most corrupt president something you know, they would have just you know, there would’ve been fires and torches in the street running around about it.

Larry 6:40
Well, I mean, I don’t disagree with you on that. There’s there’s a double standard. We have to accept that. The the double standard, there are double standards, on many things, and this is one of them. This president is not going to be run from office for anything that we think he should be of those of us. I don’t think it should be run from office. I think we’ve got an election coming up. And I think that that’s the way to if we if we disagree with how he’s administrating the United States as the chief executive then we can say we can communicate that at the polls in November but but he’s he’s he’s discharging the office in terms of his his his his executive clemency powers in accordance with the Constitution. Now, if he sold that pardon, or that commutation in this case, if he’s, if he’s selling that that’s a crime in of itself. That’s what got blood Blagojevich put in prison before Trump commuted his sentence to time serve to let him out and Blagojevich is now a big fan of Trump and he’s also a member of the Democrat Party. But I do believe you’re right if Obama I mean, look at the heat he took for any type, any type of thing that put people, that let people out of prison.

Andy 7:48
Chelsea Manning, he commuted that sentence that was like a 30-year sentence and he commuted her sentence down to some number like almost like time served and she went home and she had As far as I know, and it’s some time that she’s actually in jail now in Virginia or something for different kinds of charges, similar in nature, as far as I understand it, but he commuted her sentence and I’m pretty sure there was a big uproar about it.

Larry 8:14
I don’t I don’t recall the specifics of that. But what we can say unequivocally is if you have a democrat letting people out of prisons, there’s is vilification, there’s less scrutiny less less vilification. If it’s if it’s a republican because a republican would never turn loose dangerous people in America, a Democrat would because democrats are trying to get more voters on the rolls. They’re trying to create a permanent underclass; these are right wing talking points. These are things that I hear all day long. They’re trying to create a dependent underclass, and they’re doing things they don’t care about the safety of Americans, that all they care about is votes. And that’s their talking points. So democrats are going to get vilified when they do anything that lets people out of prison. Republicans are not I can’t change that rule. That’s the rule. That’s the rule.

Andy 9:02
Did you hear that Michael Cohen had made his way back into prison?

Larry 9:07
I did not hear that. Tell us about it.

Andy 9:09
As far as I understand it where he was, I don’t really remember the details. Whether he was at a food court or a shopping mall, but that doesn’t sound right. Anyway, my understanding is so he got furloughed because of COVID. And the terms, you know, you could explain this way better than me. So they say house arrest. I’m pretty sure that means house? Maybe if you’re under house arrest, can you like go to the grocery store? Or can you not you have to have someone bring you food, assuming you go to the grocery store.

Larry 9:34
And and it varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and house arrest program from house arrest program, but in the local program here, there’s a very limited amount of out time that you can have for going to treatment and going to approve things but I don’t imagine that what he was doing was approved and that’s probably what got him in trouble.

Andy 9:53
No, totally, totally. So yeah, he was at some kind of restaurant, like having a family outing or something like that and whomever it would be probation Whatever handlers would be responsible for that, I guess maybe that’s the federal marshals somehow spotted and they got a tip, whatever anyway, so they said, hey, you’re not following the program and they up they sent him back. And I only wanted to bring that up just because you know, a month two months ago, you were like, we can actually furlough people and then recall them when the conditions change. I only wanted to bring it up for that reason that, hey, they furloughed this dude. And they said, Hey, come back.

Larry 10:29
Well, and I’m surprised they didn’t have him on electronic monitoring. Maybe they furloughed enough people that they ran short of monitors, but you’re correct. They can spot you people that you don’t know, know you also recognize you because of their involvement in the criminal justice system, particularly when you’re high profile. And he he could have he could have been reported. And and then there’s so much surveillance tape everywhere. So much, not tape I should say there’s so much surveillance footage these days that it wouldn’t be hard to go back and ask the entity The business to let us see your surveillance and prove that he was there. But I don’t have a much sympathy for him. I’m glad they furloughed him. But when they had him sign the furlough agreement, I’m fairly confident that it was clear of what the limitations of the furlough were in terms of where he could go where he could be. And if he didn’t value being in his own soft bed, preparing his own meals, being with whatever family members he had, and being able to select his times on when he gets up if he didn’t value that enough that he decided that he needed just a tad bit more freedom. They also have an alternative program for people like you that will not live within the confines of the of the greater freedom he had. I don’t know about you…

Andy 11:44
what is this alternate plan? What is this alternate plan you’re talking about? Hang on, I didn’t realize there was an alternate plan.

Larry 11:52
Well, I think he’s he’s experiencing that alternate program now. But But when they presented him that paperwork and it said you can only be out one One hour a week if that’s what it said. He could have said No, sir. I will not accept release, it only gives me one hour a week out. And they would have said, okay, you won’t accept it. Well, we have an alternate program for you. You can stay here with us. And you can you can, you can. But to me any chance you can be at home in the confines of your own domain. I don’t care what how strict The rules are. I don’t care how strict they are. It’s better than being in a correctional facility. And when I say my home, I guess you could visualize someone’s home that may be so horrible that a correctional facility might be better. But of all the homes that I’ve lived in in my life, I would prefer all of them. Even the mobile homes. I lived there when I was when I was a poor young fellow. I would prefer them over a correctional facility.

Andy 12:54
And I would imagine Michael Cohen has a, you know, it’s certainly not a ghetto, it might not be 100 hundred million dollar mansion but I bet you he’s living in a pretty nice place. Just a guess I have no idea just guessing.

Larry 13:06
So Well, according to the reports the president offered him, not Cohen, we’re jumping back on the previous story he was offered a pardon but that would be an admission of guilt on the case. So he took the commutation rather than the pardon.

Andy 13:24
We’ll just run back through there. You don’t have a tattoo of like Lincoln, you served in the Lincoln administration. You don’t have a tattoo of Lincoln on your back do you?

Larry 13:32
No but I have many portraits that were that were painted when he was in the Whitehouse.

Andy 13:40
Do you have anything akin to like a selfie where you and him have a photo together? Well Roger Stone has has Nixon tattooed on his back, which seems just so weird to me to have like Nixon. I can’t think of a president that I can’t think of anything that I would get a tattoo on. That’s another conversation but not Nixon.

Larry 14:00
Well, it amazes me because I looked at the wiki page and he’s not that old. I mean, Nixon was elected in 1968. He was born in 1952. If I read the wiki, right, that is the Nixon administration, he would have been a very young man. So that is that is strange, because he would it would be an early part of his professional career. When Nixon got reelected in ‘72 he would have been 20.

Andy 14:25
Yeah, yeah. So somehow he was influential. And he, you know, maybe it was some sort of drunk barfighter, he lost a poker game and had to get a get a tattoo because of the poker game.

Larry 14:37
Well Nixon was a pretty good President all in all.

Andy 14:41
So until until he wasn’t?

Larry 14:45
well, no, he was actually a good president, all throughout his administration. I mean, he had deep, deep personal flaws, as an individual in terms of his paranoia, his drinking and his foul mouth and things but, but in terms of what he did for the country, Nixon was not a bad president at all. You compare him with some of the other presidents we we got a lot of things out of Nixon. He was he was a liberal Republican, by comparison of the standards of today.

Andy 15:15
Gotcha. Well, then let’s start tackling some of these articles that we have the first one coming from the Clarion ledger. And the title here is that Mississippi governor Tate Reeves vetoes criminal justice bill, there seems to be this whole push about some kind of criminal justice stuff too many people are locked up COVID all these other things are happening, and somehow it just surprises me so deeply that Governor Tate Reeves would veto this. This is where we covered the whole Riot thing and the cell phones were the cause maybe I should play that clip.

Larry 15:51
Well, if you’ve got it handy that that is kind of funny.

Andy 15:56
No, I don’t think I have it handy like that. Um, how did this How did this Go down was this, like super bipartisan like right down the line? Like how did they…? Here’s how I was explaining it to a friend of mine. I realize the governor’s also elected, but the individual representatives, the ones that would write the law, they went through their whole thing and negotiated back and forth, and they put something on the governor’s desk that their people had said that they wanted to have done. And what did the governor do?

Larry 16:27
Well, he vetoed the measure and it had bipartisan support, but it was it was very weak bipartisan support, it had enough to get it to the finish line. But it wasn’t hugely bipartisan. now And so let’s be as fair as we can be. The Democrat Party of Mississippi is so weak it can’t pass anything without Republican support.

Andy 16:51
I’m surprised they even have one.

Larry 16:53
So the the numbers are extremely lopsided in the Mississippi legislature, but it was able to I’m guessing without doing the research, I looked at the vote count, but it didn’t break it down by party. But based on what the governor said in the statement that we’ve attached to the show notes, he said that two thirds of the republicans voted against it in the Senate. We did the arithmetic pre show, and there would still be enough Republicans to get it to the finish line, if all the democrats voted for it. But what my guess is at this at this governor has political ambitions. He’s only been in office since January 14. So at the very minimum, he would like to be in office for more than one term. And since he’s a relatively young fellow, I would assume that he has ambitions beyond possibly being governor. Maybe he wants to be in the US Senate. Maybe he wants to be a president who knows. But in his relatively young age, this is the beginning of his political career. I mean, as far as as a higher office, he has served in the lieutenant governor’s office and State Treasurer but at his young age, he is 40 He’s gonna say I’ve been the governor, I guess I’ll hang it up my cleats and be done with it. So my guess is that he he did the analysis of the potential fallout and he decided to veto it because hate it what Willie Horton coming back to haunt him in the future. And Willie Horton is the is what happened to former Massachusetts governor Michael Dukakis when he ran for president and George HW Bush saddled him with the with the with the Massachusetts prison furlough program that they had in effect which he had no idea. I’m sure he’d never heard of it until, you know, till Willie did something bad. But But I suspect that played a part in his veto.

Andy 18:41
Do you think that the way the the bill was written and then signed, do you think that there was anything like particularly egregious in the whole thing?

Larry 18:52
I didn’t really analyze that. But I don’t think so. I mean, if if you can do something bipartisan, it’s usually been pretty well vetted. If you look at the legislative history, You know, there was there were four amendments I mean, this was pretty well vetted legislation. And I’m guessing Mississippi listeners to this podcast. If you know more, please let us know. And we’ll we’ll either report it or we’ll have you come on. But my guess is he just got cold feet. He didn’t want to be. He didn’t want to be tarred and feathered with this thing, letting too many people out of prison. And he expressed if you read the veto message, he expressed it that he was okay with one felony being forgiven, but he doesn’t he doesn’t like the idea of three felonies. If you see that in here. He says for example, it says criminals can get parole if they’re convicted of crimes that could get them the death penalty. he objected to that. And another example, he says you can get out of prison at age 60. Unless you’re a trafficker or a habitual offender or violent criminal. This totally eliminates those protections. And he said I got countless calls from law enforcement, prosecutors, and you hear us talk about the What do we call it, Andy?

Andy 20:00
The Law enforcement apparatus?

Larry 20:01
Okay, so the law enforcement apparatus put a lot of pressure on him. And then he mentioned that 2/3 of the Senate Republicans voted against it. So he’s he’s pointing out that it wasn’t all that bipartisan. But I’m telling you, nothing gets passed in Mississippi without Republican support, because the democrat party doesn’t have enough numbers to do anything.

Andy 20:23
So the Senate voted the final version was 25-17. I mean, that’s a What is it? Like a 60 ish 40 split, give or take, and then 79-29. That is a huge majority voted for it in the house. Like there was there was a decent amount of support for it.

Larry 20:39
There was but but as I keep telling you, he is not looking just at those numbers. He’s looking at Willie Horton.

Andy 20:50
Okay. The other part of that is in the article, it says that the way that this thing is laid out says thereby reducing prison overcrowding. It was this would allow Mississippi prisons to seek parole and saving taxpayers 45 million bucks. Mississippi is not exactly a wealthy state that could actually like double their bottom line there that 45 million bucks, they probably have a budget of like, I don’t know, 500 million bucks or something.

Larry 21:16
Well I doubt it’s that high. But, again, these savings come in the future. And and people like this if we’re going off on a tangent here, but people act as if the savings materialize.They don’t materialize right away because of the prison industrial complex. When you reduce an overcrowded prison, say let’s do hypotheticals, you’ve got a prison designed for 1100 and it’s got 1500 in it. If you bring it down to its design capacity, which you really don’t want to run a system even at design capacity, but you bring it down to design capacity. You haven’t saved a lot of money. Yes, you’re going to cut back on food, your your, your, the amount of calories your going to put put out, but your basic operations stay the same. You’re going to air condition to the extent You do, you’re going to heat it to the same extent, every post in the prison is going to still be covered. same person, they’re going to have people in in central master control, you’re going to have all these people in these positions. So you don’t really save a lot of money. It’s a hypothetical savings. So you what people do. And it’s totally disingenuous. They say, well, it cost us $42,000 per inmate, or 36, or 29, or whatever. And then they multiply it times the hundreds of people or get out and they somehow say that this will save No, it won’t save us that let’s be intellectually honest, because there’s no direct correlation in that reduction because the prisons fixed costs continue to operate. The personnel, you know, the positions still have to be covered. So the savings are negligible. The way you save money in a prison is you close it.

Andy 22:48
So you would have to reduce the population by a facility which could be you know, 500 or 1000 people or 3000 people and then you close that facility down that would save you all of the moneys.

Larry 23:00
Save, it saves you that money. But then you get into new problems because first of all the people in that rural community where most prisons are located. these are these are these are delivered, driven to local communities because it’s the only economic development they have. So you’ve got people who hate the government, they say it, they did this all themselves, and the only job they have is working at a government facility. And I’ve always found that ironic, but but you’re going to take away the lifeblood of that community If you close that facility. And then as a compromise, you offer them to be transferred to another facility so you can keep their job protected. So then you take the 360 staffers, they worked at that 500 unit prison and you disperse them around the correction system to extent that they want to be dispersed. And you end up reducing that staffing by 42. So So, so it’s a little disingenuous, but I get your point, that money would have been saved. Because even if you don’t close a single facility, you have fewer medical calls, your outpatient treatments where you have to take people out, you reduce the prison population is going to save some food, it is going to save some money. So you would you would save some funds, but it’s not as pronounced as what people that are on our side who advocate, we’re going to save all this money. They just do a simple mathematical formula, as they say, Well, if we reduce it by 400, that’s 400 times 32,000. doesn’t work like that.

Andy 24:27
Gotcha. Oh, then over at the State Bar of Wisconsin, with Wisconsin Supreme Court, police traffic stop did not violate the Fourth Amendment reading through this article. Larry, I don’t know how they came to that conclusion. That just because he had prior history that that gave them the ability, the reasoning the probable cause to like search the car. I didn’t see how that was. So this guy, he gets pulled over. And like when the cop comes back with the ticket, he sees that he has some sort of, you know, prior record, whatever it is. They so he says he wants to search the car and he does. So Brown says he did not put the offers requested consent to search him reveal about four grams of crack cocaine and 500 bucks. He says he didn’t consent to the search.

Larry 25:16
But if you look on page, this is a long decision. I did not read it, but I did. I did do a cursory glance. But this is the educational part of this is to listen very carefully to what the officer says. And be having your recording devices running if you possibly can. Because the party’s dispute they’ll look at footnote 2 the party’s dispute where the brown gave consent officer Dearing testified that he asked Brown Mind if I search you to double check because it asked him if you had any weapons anything. And brown he says that Brown said no. Now Brown testified that, that that he asked could he search him, and he said no. Now There’s a whole lot of difference. In that question. You don’t mind If I searched to double check? And if that’s what the officer said, he said, No, if that’s truly what he said then he gave consent, if he says, may I search you? And he says no. Officers are very skilled at asking a question in the moment that you don’t hear it the same way that they’re you’re not you’re not picking up on the nuance of the question. Without a without a see how far back technology would go where they called the dicta belt before we had the the the fancy digital recorders and then the body cams everything. Without having that we don’t know specifically what the officer said. But I would give the officer some benefit of the doubt because they’re trained in how to ask a question to elicit the answer that they’re looking for. So if he said, if he said it the way he said he said it, the guy did give him consent.

Andy 26:54
I believe I’m looking for really quick. So there is a an app. I don’t know if this fits under the purview of the podcast. But so I have it in the show notes and it’s up on the screen on the YouTube side of thing. There is ACLU apps to record police conduct. So they have like, quick, quick response apps that you can click on your phone. That will get you in there. It gets you recording the police, as you know, just quickly and easily so that you can, you know, obviously record what is going on and have your own personal record. So you can say whether the cop did what they said they did or not.

Larry 27:29
Well, we’ll just just for basics if the, if the cop pulls you over as an incident to a lawful arrest, they can do a full search of your person and of your vehicle. Now the Supreme Court stopped them from searching your cell phone a few years ago, they said that that’s that requires a warrant. But prior to the to the point of being arrested, they have the right to do a safety check. And so they can, they can pat you down. And anything that feels unexplainable they can ask you and it Look at that because like, you could tell them it’s anything you could say that they don’t say it’s a box cutter from the grocery store. It may not be a box cutter. It may be something else. But, but it gets a little dicey here because I have not, I have not tracked it and I’ve not done a lot of dope in my time. I don’t know exactly. I don’t know exactly what it would feel like, but I don’t think it would feel like a weapon would it?

Andy 28:31
So no, certainly not.

Larry 28:34
Okay. So I’m assuming that the officer felt something that based on his training, that would have led him to believe that it was unlawful because he had $500. I think it said in cash, any and he had he had some substance, but that’s not something that so that’s not a safety issue. So I would have been on to the side of the dissent, the dissenting judge here that, that that anything that he uncovered that It wasn’t a safety issue for him would have been the fruits of an unlawful search. He was allowed to do a pat down search. But he he did that for a safety and he had reasonably I’m against If a person’s been convicted of what he been convicted of, I mean, it is not beyond conceivable that he could be armed, particularly running drugs, you might be even more likely to be armed but but I don’t think I would have gone this way. But I don’t know that we could blame this all on the on the republican judges because wasn’t it four to one. So it looks like maybe, maybe some of the democrat judges might have might have come down the same way on it. The lib tarts? Yep, the lip tarts.

Andy 29:39
All right, then I’m gonna let you have that one.

Larry 29:41
Well, just be careful when you’re in Wisconsin, knowing that God’s this decision has come down, you will be searched this that the city judge painted a correct picture of this that’s going to embolden officers to do more searching because they have been vindicated. So as long as, This is Larry’s general rule of criminality. If you are carrying anything illegal in Wisconsin, get rid of it. Don’t encounter the cops, because they are going to be able to search you now, without with a far lower threshold of what had previously existed. And this is the law of the state. Now, it is possible that during could ask for a Supreme Court cert review, because this is a federal constitutional right. And this is where I wanted to launch off of what we talked about last week, when you talked about going into federal court. As a general rule, I state Supreme Court decision is final. And you cannot do anything else with it unless there’s a federal constitutional right in play. And then you don’t go to you don’t go to the to the trial court at the federal level. What you can do off of this decision is you can file a petition for cert with US Supreme Court, you can say that the Supreme Court of Wisconsin is wrong. There’s a fundamental constitutional right and you can ask The Supreme Court to grant review. And don’t you don’t start out at the lower court again on the federal system. You don’t when you lose at the state Supreme Court, you don’t follow US district court case. And I think that’s where you were struggling last week or the week before we were talking about going to the district court. This would go straight to the US Supreme Court on a petition for certiorari. And I hope I hope our transcriber could spell that one when it gets to be transcribed next week.

Andy 31:26
probably not. Because it’s hard to even like right figure out how to Yeah, even to pronounce the word like cer-tior-ari

Larry 31:37
Well, there are all sorts of ways so. Yeah, sure, yeah.

Andy 31:45
There’s the other word that’s Amicus or Amicus?

Larry 31:47
Yep, that is, but but this could go up on a cert petition and I would be if it were to go up, this would be something that NARSOL I can just about guarantee you will be interested in it at some level. Maybe it wouldn’t be a top priority but, but how much privacy you have when you’re stopped on the road that would be an issue that would be concerned about.

Andy 32:09
All righty then. Well the next article is from the Associated Press, Maxwell moved to New York for Epstein related sex abuse charges. So this is Jeffrey Epstein’s longtime confidant. I cannot What is this Ghislaine Maxwell was transferred Monday to New York City jail plagued by Coronavirus concerns and other problems as she faces that she recruited girls one as young as 14 for him to sexually abuse. Why is this here?

Larry 32:37
Well, I’m just hoping that she doesn’t meet the same fate and this is not the same facility that Epstein died in. But it gives me pause for thought that that that something bad may happen to her and again, just like I said about the police officer last week that was granted bail in Atlanta. This woman is presumed innocent. And that presumption follows her to the conclusion of the proceedings. And until such time as she’s either found guilty, or enters a plea of guilty, the presumption is she hasn’t broken any laws, and she should be entitled to be released. And I wish the police officer would come on the podcast and save what I just said about him about her. Right.

Andy 33:24
She’s assumed innocent, but you know, we all know that this is not how this goes as soon as you end up with all the press coverage, and everyone’s like, Oh, we should roast this woman. She’s done these terrible things, but she’s afforded her day in court,

Larry 33:36
right. And the presumption should be innocent and particularly in view of this pandemic and her age, we should be doing everything we can to get her out of jail, if there’s gonna be some reasonable accommodations made sure that her participation and that that’s the same thing I said about the officer. It’s the same thing I’m saying today. The only problem is he won’t say it. And I just did.

Andy 34:03
There’s an article that we have from JGTC.com, which is the journal Gazette in times, courier commentary, lawyers can’t visit clients in prison. So quit monitoring their emails. I imagine this is about the people that have their email stuff in prison and all that stuff is monitored. But since the lawyers can’t go in there, they have to do it by email. So shouldn’t there be some sort of exception rule in the email software that says, hey, if something comes from this specific address that it doesn’t go through their filtering stuff? That seems like that wouldn’t be that hard to do there, at least the loan like a systems person.

Larry 34:38
That’s why I put it in here because I know with Laura calls, we we try to make sure that we’re not monitored and if they use the regular telephone system and call us they would be subject to the regular monitoring. But in most instances, they don’t use the regular telephone system. They call by making an appointment with a case manager or case worker and then they’re taken to a station line and we assume by all accounts, it’s not supposed to be monitored, you know, not being on the inside. We don’t know for sure, but, but it seems like that they could figure out something. If if the telephone calls are not possible to be made, because of the lockdown and lack of personnel or whatever, and then the only thing they can do is communicate by email. It seems like to me that they ought to be able, and if I were an enterprising lawyer, I would be arguing this in court that that, that there should be some sort of order issued for the prisons to figure out how to exempt these emails. And I don’t begin to have any knowledge of how you would do it from a managerial and from a technical point of view, but it should be able to be done I would think,

Andy 35:41
and I get that so don’t don’t touch on those points, because technically, it wouldn’t be hard to do. But what would lawyers what would the resolution be now that the prison has potentially filtered seen whatever those things have gone through? Somebody else’s hands what is The resolution once that cat, you know, the horse has already left the barn?

Larry 36:04
I’m not following the question.

Andy 36:06
It’s just that the damage is already done. You can’t undo the damage that the prison has potentially already looked at the emails coming from the lawyers. So yeah, you’re arguing in court that this shouldn’t happen. But what is the resolution? Especially since it’s already been done, and they don’t have any? I mean, think about it. In my mind, I’m thinking about it similar to the Coronavirus thing. We don’t have a process in place. So what are you supposed to do? Do something but here is they don’t necessarily have a way to not filter the emails. But the damage is already done.

Larry 36:37
Well, maybe if if, if anything that was used, if anything that was communicated an email was used, you would move for suppression and he would, he would ask the court to not allow that to be used. So if you communicate to your lawyer, for example, that through an email that that you had committed the offense, you would end the states as well. We got you right here. Are you Know you have recordings that they play where they communicate to a loved one on the telephone and they will what you would do in the case of this was an attorney client email, you would say that that’s not admissible. And you would move to you would move to have that disallowed from evidence. But your point is well taken that you can’t unknow what you know, as a result of that screening, you can’t unknow that.

Larry 37:24
Hmm, so what do we do? What do we do?

Andy 37:28
I think I think an answer Larry is to have fewer people behind bars that these things would apply to.

Larry 37:35
We can’t do that.

Andy 37:36
Okay, all right. I tried. That was my suggestion. I think you put this in here is like the funny article of the night this is from the appeal. Prisoners face undue punishment as their IRS claws back as the IRS calls back their stimulus checks. Hey, you remember, everyone got $1200 bucks a couple months ago.

Larry 37:54
I do indeed. I I got my 1200 and not everyone, people, people who were Let’s be clear. If you were if you were wealthy and you earned more than 75,000, there was a phase out when you reached 99,000, you didn’t get any. And the same phase out if you were a couple hundred 50,000. And then you there was the phase out it phased out. So you didn’t, you didn’t get it beyond a certain point. And then people over 16, and between 16 and 20 to 23. So the college age kids didn’t get it. So there were some exemptions, but almost almost everyone got it. I would agree to that.

Andy 38:29
and to your knowledge, and I’m sure there’s an exception to this rule to, to your knowledge to people in prison earn somewhere in that range, like less than?

Larry 38:39
a, as a general rule, I’m thinking that most prison jobs pay less than $75,000. Yes.

Andy 38:45
Those people technically would qualify for this money?

Larry 38:49
Well, I don’t know that that’s the focus of the article. This is more focused on people who actually had free world jobs, because it could be that since this money was given to you in 2020 it was based on your 2018, 2019 returns. And these people, the prisons can be filled with a turnover prison, these prisons can be full of people that were in the free world in 2018, either interference, some form of supervision. So they could that they could be entitled to the money. And this is an example of our, our constant hatred for people in prison that we just the IRS issued a regulation. And I hate to tell the people who believe that this is a friendly government that we have in Washington DC, the IRS issued a regulation that said that we should treat this like Social Security benefits. And social security benefits are not paid to people while they’re incarcerated. So you’re entitled, technically you’re entitled to the benefits. But back in the 90s, when Clinton was president, and the Republicans had control of Congress, they passed that, that law and Clinton signed it where during the time you’re incarcerated, you forfeit your benefits and they get They incentivize the prisoners to intercept the money. So how quickly the prisoner reports it determines how much reward money they get for the interception. And I don’t know if there’s a reward attached to this or not, I would imagine there is, but since I don’t know that I’m saying, I’m guessing I’m imagining, but if they if they bothered after the Social Security intercepts, thus, what’s happening here is the prison is being rewarded for intercepting these payments. And I would like to see legal challenges because it’s not in the law. According to the article, there was nothing expressed in intent by Congress, because a person happened to be an incarcerated time that they would be prohibited from receiving these payments, same kind of thing that they did with the with the felon own businesses, the SBA, the Small Business Administration, who’s handling the payroll Protection Program. They’re not giving those to some small business owners who have who have felony convictions. Of course, that’s denying the employees of the felon on bill is from being able to have a job. I mean, it’s detrimental to families that may have nothing to do with a felony. But it wasn’t in the statute, but these are administrative impositions that are coming from the administration. So I don’t like it when people say we shouldn’t criticize the administration. This is an administrative action that’s being implemented by this administration. So this administration is fairly criticized for doing this. They issued the guidelines.

Andy 41:31
Can you describe what is happening with the checks that are coming in to the inmates?

Larry 41:38
Well, the prison is of course, they don’t let you receive checks, but they’re holding the checks. And apparently, the IRS is demanding the return under that regulation that they issued that rule they issued, saying they’re not entitled to it and that’s what needs to be challenged. But as a general rule, again, for all the prisoners are listening if you’re going to be asking for money from something, Don’t use the prison address. As a general rule, you do not want money sent to prisons, because there are prison systems who have it in the statute and they even say they were not going to intercept it return to the IRS, but they will confiscate a portion of that for fines and fees and costs related to your conviction. I think Nevada has a fixed percent by statute that they will take so therefore you do not want a $1200 dollar check coming through the prison because they’re going to take their cut even in the best of times without this intercept there will take a cut you want a $30 check come into the prison you want as little money come in as a prison as you possibly can. Unless you don’t mind giving the prison a cut.

Andy 42:44
Right. Yeah, you’re gonna pay you’re gonna be certainly big fees. There’s a I don’t know if it’s JPay I don’t know which service it is that you most of them have moved to for having your money sent in like there’s a handling company now and then they distribute the money to your To your books,

Larry 43:01
you know that that’s that’s the good old private sector being creative, but I was talking about the state in Nevada they collect it as to apply toward your fees. It’s it’s a statutory requirement that they may they may have JPay that gets their cut but but as in the books of Nevada law, there’s there’s a provision that towards your fees that were imposed. While you’re in prison, we will collect a portion of all incoming funds to your account and that goes to retire those those obligations. So that’s why I’m telling you don’t have money Central Prison.

Andy 43:34
Certainly not. So there’s so there’s so it would be kind of like wishy washy of if you technically qualify for it since you’re under the ward of the state. But so here’s a guy that’s detained at Coalinga State Hospital in California, who has one leg and uses a wheelchair because of his disability. He says the hospital has rejected his application for a paid job so he wants to work in the prison. He says, a hospital gives him $12 and six 60 cents per month, which has to cover toothpaste shampoo, soap and other hygiene products. And they confiscated as money.

Larry 44:06
So, but now, again, I believe this is terrorists. I don’t believe the hospitals keeping the money. I believe the under the guidelines that money has to be returned to the treasure. It’s like the people, the dead people that received it. The IRS says they’re not entitled to as the IRS said, You’re not entitled to this money. Because of a proclamation that they’ve made. It’s not at the prison and the hospital. I don’t believe it’s benefiting from this. I believe litigation should ensued. Now, this is easy to say outside, because I’m not the one in the prison who has $14 on my books and has no access to a lawyer. But there should be litigation because Congress did not prohibit you. There’s nothing other than a regulatory intervention by the Trump administration by the Internal Revenue Service that says we’re going to withhold these funds for prisoners. Congress did not express that.

Andy 44:58
So Cuz like if we are going to be textualist since they didn’t write it, then why are we inventing regulations?

Larry 45:05
That’s my whole point. I am actually for this purpose the text is not, does not textualism is really good at times. It’s not so good at other times.

Andy 45:18
Yeah, I was about to call you a hypocrite. Hypocrite That’s what it is.

Larry 45:19
But But I’ll admit that when textualism suits my purpose, I’m for it. But but but in this case, if it’s not in the text of the law, and it isn’t according to this research that produced this article, if it’s not in the text of the law, then it’s an invention. And I do not believe in inventing things. If I’m going to be a textualist then I need to be consistently a textualist. Therefore, this not in the law, you shouldn’t be inventing this.

Andy 45:48
Gotcha. And then an article from Bakersfield.com. Attorney, Now sick with COVID-19 says judge ordered her to court against her better judgment. I gotta think that going to court When you’re testing positive for COVID, like you would unnecessarily potentially infect people that are visiting the courtroom the people in working in the courtroom potentially the judge, potentially your client and or if you’re a prosecutor, the defendant, like all that, like, so that sounds like a bad idea. I mean, like even the Supreme Court’s doing these things over phone or zoom or something like that.

Larry 46:20
Well, I hate to put on my rose-colored glasses, I’m in a consternated condition. if that’s a word. You when you’re a judge, you have you have extreme obligations to try to give people justice timely justice. So you’ve got you’ve got rules bearing down on your for for speedy this and speedy that. And you’ve got you’ve got the pressures of trying to keep the document moving. And you’ve got a lawyer saying I’ve got the sniffles today and I’m minimizing it because that’s not what she apparently said. But you but but but the but the lawyer is saying she’s not feeling well at a job. I just said, well, you better get yourself here to court. And then she says, Well, I’ve been tested for COVID-19. But the test results have come back. Well, looking at through the rearview mirror, probably we would have said, well, should you’ve been tested for it? You must think you might have it therefore don’t say side abundance of caution. I’m going to I’m going to say you don’t have to come to court. But the part that’s missing that we don’t know, would be would there been any adverse consequences on the on the on the case that was that where she was representing the person? Was there a deadline about to pass was she willing to sign a waiver of that defendants rights, for that speedy for that for that, for whatever process was bearing down to take place? There are so many unknowns in this, but a judge should if an attorney says particularly an attorney is not notorious for lying, to people that they’re listening, several attorneys are always on tours for lying, but that’s not true. But an attorney who has a reasonably good reputation for telling the truth and being being straight up with the court. He probably should have shown To cancel the proceeding, but there are circumstances where you’re up against deadlines, if a person’s being held on a charge, and there’s a 10 day rule that you have to indict them, or release them. And you don’t, you don’t get that, that hearing is for the purpose of determining if they’re gonna be indicted. And you know, hold the hearing, and that person has to be cut loose. Is that a decision you’d like to see made?

Andy 48:22
Yeah, I do wonder what’s going to happen in hindsight of how many people have not had their due process and their their speedy trial and stuff like that, how much of that stuff has just been? Oh, sorry, you’re gonna be like six months delayed now because of like, wow, I wonder how much stuff is gonna get get started, how much it’s gonna get started from that.

Larry 48:44
So I wondered that myself, because it seems like it’s gonna cause cause of convictions to be questioned in the future because of this pandemic of what it’s done in terms of the process, to accessibility to lawyers confrontation of witnesses, that In person, you know, you have you have certain rights, and those as my parents is fond of saying those constitutional rights Don’t go away just because of a pandemic.

Andy 49:13
Right. Okay. So doesn’t that apply to the whole criminal justice system as well?

Larry 49:17
That’s what I’m trying to call pets out on. You know, he’s he’s fond of say that Americans don’t fall for Constitutional Rights. So I think that would be universal across the board that people charged for crimes don’t forfeit their rights, either.

Andy 49:28
You don’t think that there would be some hypocrisy, if you were to then ask him directly? Hey, does this apply to the criminal justice system?

Larry 49:35
I I think there would be because all through the 2016 campaign, they were so adamant that that that Obama had never called out. He’s supposed to call them terrorists terrorists. And they said, because he wouldn’t use that name. He wouldn’t call them names, you know, and Obama said that’s not an effective policy, just to call someone names. But then, when this administration took power, and the protests To Charlottesville, very hesitant to call them out, very hesitant to call them out. And I thought they call it names calling people thugs and stuff. I thought that’s what you were supposed to do. So, I think there’s a little bit of hotpot cracy there.

Andy 50:16
Ready to be a part of Registry Matters, get links at registrymatters.co. If you need to be discreet about it, contact them by email at registrymatterscast@gmail.com or you can call or text a ransom message to (747)227-4477. Want to support Registry Matters on a monthly basis, head to Patreon.com/registrymatters. Not ready to become a patron? Give a five-star review at Apple podcasts or Stitcher or tell your buddies at your treatment class about the podcast. We want to send out a big heartfelt support for those on the registry. Keep fighting without you, we can’t succeed. You make it possible. And then over from I guess this will be Time magazine want to reform the criminal justice system focus on prosecutors. Hey over at the Incarceration Nation podcast with Joshua, who’s a fairly frequent guest, he interviewed a conservative former prosecutor from the CPAC convention, and that he was like all over that saying that if you want, like the prosecutor has so much control over how things are pushed down the pipeline for the criminal justice system. So here’s another here’s an article that describes this.

Larry 51:39
Well, I think we covered that last podcast about the the DC Circuit Court of Appeals or the Flynn dismissal, but the judge has appealed on that. Okay, so so it’s kind of going off topic here, but on the The the the three judge panel voted two to one, to tell the prosecution to tell the judge that the prosecution has the final say. And I think that was correct decision. And I said that last week. And now, Judge Sullivan has asked for review on blank. And he’s got to get the whole DC circuit to try to overturn the panel.

Andy 52:24
How about that? Well, I mentioned in this article, Larry Crasner, in Philadelphia and another public defenders that are that are just totally in favor of focusing on the prosecutors for criminal justice reform efforts. Well,

Larry 52:39
they’re not they’re not the only player. But they are an important player because you can pass all the laws you want to. But if a prosecutor doesn’t make it a high priority, nothing’s going to happen. But but but the flip side of that is if you give them powers You give them resources, they are going to prosecute things, usually, if it’s there, because they’re gonna say that’s the duty that they swore to, but they put the hand on the Bible. And they’re going to do that. So So prosecutors have enormous power. But ultimately, criminal justice reform is going to require us to make some decisions to limit the powers that they have. If we don’t want as many prosecutions, we’re gonna have to limit their resources. And I’m not saying defund them completely. The funding is as as a concoction of the right wing to try to scare people, which if you’re watching, I meant to put together one of the Trump ads he’s running about when you call 911. And it says press one, and we’ll get back to you in five days if it’s a murder, you know. And I told people weeks ago that that’s exactly what they’re going to do. But but we have to limit their ability to bring prosecutions if we don’t want so many of them and we do that two ways. We do that by not having so many laws, not having so many felonies by them not having as many people on their payroll. If you if you take a prosecution office that has 100 prosecutors and you reduce it to 64, they’re radically, only two thirds as much work can come out of the office. If you were able to produce the same amount of work, what that would tell us is that a third of the people weren’t doing anything to start with. But but that that’s the part of it. So you didn’t defund the office, you reduced funding to the office. The same thing with the police, we’re not going to defund the police completely. Nobody is advocating, totally abolishing the police. We’re talking about directing some of the resources that are going to law enforcement, to people who might be able to handle non police matters to the police get stuck with handling the police get stuck with handling things that they’ve just assumed not handled. We’re talking about redirecting some of those resources towards alternative intervention other than law enforcement, and maybe we won’t have so many Cases probably cause the police when they come out on things they really don’t like to come out. Finally, their parting words are. If we have to come out here again, someone’s going to go to jail.

Larry 55:10
You’ve heard that right.

Andy 55:12
I’ve not heard it, not me personally, but I’ve heard the expression.

Larry 55:15
And somebody’s going to jail.

Andy 55:18
Whether anybody’s guilty of anything or not.

Larry 55:21
They made that so if we have people who are, if their powers are not, if I have to come out here again, someone’s going to jail if they have different cafeteria options, I say if I if we have to come out here again, we’re going to seek familiar counseling for this family because clearly, you guys are having some difficulty relating to one another. That that doesn’t introduce that person to the criminal justice system. And it doesn’t bog down the jail processing somebody and take a police officer off the street to deal with that. So that’s what we’re talking about. You can buy into all the scare tactics you want to but nobody is talking about abolishing law enforcement.

Andy 56:02
Well Okay. Over at the BBCNews.com website, US Supreme Court rules half. Oklahoma’s not a small state, half of Oklahoma is a Native American land. Now this, I can see everyone’s eyes rolling in the back of their heads, like, why are we covering this? but turns out that the person that like got this whole case pushed up to the Supreme Court happened to be convicted of a sexual offense. And I guess he said that, hey, this is a federal land and you can’t try me at the state level. And I think that’s the how the process ended up going to the Supreme Court.

Larry 56:35
There. Again, I didn’t read the entire decision, I did a less than skim read, but that’s what it appears to be that, that Oklahoma that half Oklahoma is not is not state land. Therefore, the state court verdict is invalid.

Andy 56:52
That’s really quite humorous in the whole grand scheme of things. But so so now and then hey, look There’s this tiny little sliver on the map in the top right corner that wouldn’t be considered a the Indian nation. Like, forgive me, I don’t know what the right word is Native Americans Forgive me that that wouldn’t be Native American territory up there in the corner. That’s kind of funny that there’s this tiny little spot there in the northeast corner, that wouldn’t be Native American land. Well, but it’s what’s interesting to me is so the person that wrote the decision is Neil Gorsuch. And he kind of comes up in our radar fairly often. But he, he is superduper textualist, and said that the United States signed these treaties with these organizations umpteen hundred years ago, and they are not honoring them. And it’s what it says. So we have to do it. It’s

Larry 57:41
well, I, again, sometimes sexual Islam is a good thing. And if, if we don’t like it, we could go back and negotiate with the Native American tribes, whoever whoever they would be. I think it’s what it was talking about the Seminoles about whoever we would have to negotiate with, and we can try to figure out how to remedy this. That But our highest court has spoken. This is Indian Territory.

Andy 58:04
Yes. And it says so because Congress has not said otherwise. We hold the government to its word. And it’s only a five four decision which I do sort of find interesting in the grand scheme of things also.

Larry 58:14
Well, what’s the split? Who’s who’s on the five and what who are the four?

Andy 58:18
Ah, you had to ask that? I don’t know.

Larry 58:24
Bunch of darn liberal damn do gooders is all it is here, mumbo jumbo?

Andy 58:29
Well, okay. So justice Neil Gorsuch, a conservative appointed by US President Donald Trump sided with the courts for liberals and also wrote the opinion so that’s a There you go.

Larry 58:39
That is that it’s really disgusting that these liberal pointy heads would align themselves with our eyes put it the other way that the conservative is concerned with align himself with these liberal Obama and Clinton appointees. That’s that’s really, really disgusting.

Andy 58:57
All right, well, we’re done with all that. And Larry, you have to start To treat us with your, you’ve concocted some plan to teach people how they can get off the registry to navigate their registry obligations to be removed. So you have five minutes before we go to the voicemail messages, begin.

Larry 59:15
I thought we were going to make this a major segment.

Andy 59:19
No, I’m just kidding. You have all the time in the world. And I’ve put together some questions. I’m sure you have some things that you could throw around. So what what are we talking about here? As far as a like, what is this? What does this mean removal from the registry?

Larry 59:34
Well, we’re talking about and those states where there is a process that exists to petition to be removed from the registry. Now, we’re not talking about the states where there are no process. I can’t give you what there isn’t. And, and we don’t want to confuse this with if you don’t think you’re covered by the registry. That is not the same petition process. You might move from state a to state B You’ve looked at the laws of state B, you don’t believe that, that kind of that state B encompasses your conviction from state a? Well, the process you would file then would be a declaratory action asking the court in state B to declare that you’re not covered by state B’s registry. We’re talking about a process where a state has said after you’ve meet these requirements, you can ask to have your registration obligation terminated. So that’s what we’re going to be talking about it we’re going to be talking about in generalities mostly in terms of what you should do and what you shouldn’t do and what the considerations are. And we’re going to take the questions that came from the from the patrons to the listeners and and from you and I intended to write up some but I think we’re going to have a good good day we should keep coming back to this because this comes up I I must have gotten three dozen emails last week about getting off the registry after after the podcast about from people want to know how do I get off

Andy 1:00:58
well, you You constantly say so while you’re under supervision, you have limited blah, blah, blah. And most of the people that would potentially be listening to this or that, you know, just on the register in general, you know, hey, it’s not a forever thing that you’re well for. Sorry, Mike in Florida, yes, it is a forever thing, but you’re not under supervision for forever. So you do probably come up at some point that you could get removed from the registry. That’s where this that’s that’s the timeline that we’re talking about that this would begin as when you are eligible, what should you do? Is that what we’re talking about,

Larry 1:01:34
that’s what we’re talking about in states like Georgia, Arkansas, where they have many states, several states have but California will soon have a process. And I’m going to be getting my facts together in terms of what’s so bad about the process. And we’re going to be talking about California in more detail. But tonight we’re going to focus on the states are more familiar with what you’re Arkansas and Georgia and I put the removal process Georgia in the Dropbox. So, so what we’ve we’ve we’ve talked about it on narsil and action programs. But we always have new listeners and we have new questions and and, and there’s basics that you should always do. And basics you should always not do. And and then specifically for your case, I’m not gonna be able to tell anybody about what I would do in your case unless I’m on your legal team, but I can tell you these general things that you should do to get prepared.

Andy 1:02:29
All right, well, then let me let me throw the first one out there, should you DO IT pro se.

Larry 1:02:34
I never recommend anything as serious as this being done pro se. And it’s not because I work in the law business. It’s because I understand how the law to adversarial system works adversarial, adversarial system is based on having an advocate for each party. And as a party to an action you don’t want to be trying to be your own advocate because the opposing party is not going to want to deal with you. Right, I don’t make that rule. All I do is communicate to you the reality of what the rule is, you’re going to have to deal with an adversarial side of this process. And they do not want to deal with you. They want to deal with the person who represents you. They came, they can’t talk freely to you. They can’t tell you what a creep you are if they think you are because it’s probably not going to end well for the for the conversation. They can’t tell you things that you need to have done that you shouldn’t have done and things that you ought to do that would enhance your odds. So I’d never recommend you do this. Is that allowable? Yes. In most instances, everything is it’s allowable to go pro se. I never advise it. Because if you go pro se and you botch it, and the referee doesn’t call foul on some things, and the referees are supposed to call foul your advocate supposed to call a foul. If the referee doesn’t call foul, you may set yourself up For a long time of before you ever get a chance to come off again, or you may not ever get off because of something that’s led into evidence that shouldn’t have been that that judge is always going to remember. Because there was no objection bait till go pro se.

Andy 1:04:17
Where Where do you does this? Does this Captain happen in the county of conviction? Or could it be anywhere else? And you know, Louisiana’s parishes? So translate that if that’s relevant to you, or does that vary by state? Or do you always go back to Hey, I’m from, you know, pioneer no County. So I go back to pioneer in accounting,

Larry 1:04:37
the schemes that I’ve looked at, that’s the way they do it. I don’t agree with the way they do it. I think that this is a little off point. But I think that the process of getting off the registry should be more professionalized that you shouldn’t have the haphazard approach. If you have a county that has 14,000 population and everybody knows everybody, and then you have the county. Let’s play Pull Fulton out of a hat in Georgia, which has over a million people where nobody knows anybody. And and it just creates a whole different paradigm. So I would prefer, if I got to design a system, I would prefer that there be a specialty court in each state that deals with this among other specializations. But the reality is that in most of the schemes I’ve looked at, you file in the court, you were convicted, and you’ll be before the judge, if that judge, he or she is still sitting, that judge will determine if your petition is granted. If you happen to move to another state, you file generally in the county where you are residing, which gives you an opportunity to do a little bit of forum shopping, because since you’re not forbidden to both, Georgia has 159 counties. You could do a little bit of research and decide statistically where you would have a better chance of being removed. And you could plant yourself in that county in Georgia, if you had an out of state conviction. But if you’re convicted in Georgia, you can move to 159 counties and your petition is going to go back to the county you’re convicted to the very same judge. And if that judges stay out or retired, the judge who has has succeeded in that bench who’s sitting in that division, that judge is going to make the decision.

Andy 1:06:16
Do you think super broad stroke? Do you think that in that type of situation that moving to a population of 10 County or population of 10,000 County would be a better idea or you know, fit picker, you know, hundred thousand something like that? Super rural or super populated? Which one would be more favorite, but do you think,

Larry 1:06:34
well, it runs, it runs the gamut. There’s no, absolutely no absolute rule. The more important factor is going to be how oppositional the prosecution is going to be because if you read these processes, the petition always gets served on the prosecutor, among others, so in Georgia referred to as a district attorney in Florida they’re referred to as the state’s attorney and Michigan They’re referred to as the prosecuting attorney. But you’re going to file it on the people’s attorney, which is generally the that they are elected. So the more important consideration is, what is that prosecution’s office posture going to be? All these petitions?

Larry 1:07:20
All right.

Andy 1:07:22
Someone asked on Twitter. And I this may fall slightly outside of the scope says, let’s say someone was put on the registry in a state for 10 years, the 10 years is up and they’re removed. But obligations remain when traveling to other states or internationally.

Larry 1:07:40
Well, I’m going to try to duck the international the, but on the state, the obligation on the state is to determine if your crime is covered, and that state. Now again, we’re going to talk about hovercraft. If you have been terminated in state a Edu Move to state B, barring the hovercraft, state B is not going to be getting a handoff, notice from state a, if you’re a registered person, you’re going to have to be handed off because most states before you leave, you have to tell them that you’re moving to state B, they send state via notice to be expected you. And then if you don’t check in with state B, they’re going to put out a fugitive warrant for you, the federal marshals are going to be notified that you didn’t check in with state B and they’re gonna start looking for you in the socket to be good because they’re gonna find you. But if you were to hypothetically both to state aid from state a to state B, having been discharged in Georgia and state vs. Alabama, let’s just take keep it really close together. So you Georgia discharge issue. They have absolutely no power over Alabama. So the minute you become a resident Alabama, your duty to register is absolute because Alabama law says specifically that that regardless of the date of conviction, regardless of anything, so Alabama has defined you as a Georgia Your Georgia conviction as a covered offense, and you have a duty to register. So the question will be for Alabama, how quick are they going to figure out you’re there? Well, if you do like Maguire did and you go knock at the sheriff store, you tell him, I don’t think I have to register. They’re gonna know fairly quickly. If you don’t go knock at the door, and don’t go say, I’m just curious, I got also registered in Georgia to have to register if you don’t do that, you could live the rest of your life and never have a problem. Depending on how often you encounter cops remainder and how old you are. If you’re 72 you don’t encounter cops, and you live to be 81. You might go nine years and never have any more problems the rest of your life. So, but what what what you would do if you were discharged, and Alabama and Georgia and you went to Alabama, you would let your conscious be your guy. If you want to go register, you would go register because your research. If you do it diligently, you’ll see that each state defines a sex offender differently and who they cover differently. And if you if you don’t want to have any possibility of hovercraft, then you would check in with a state in South they got I’m just learning if I have to register, and more than likely they’re going to tell you yes, even though you’ve been discharged because Georgia’s discharge has no no bearing in Alabama

Andy 1:10:21
because we have 50 individual little countries and their sovereign places.

Larry 1:10:25
That is correct. An Alabama chooses to require a lifetime registration, but they’ll removal process that I’m that I’m aware of.

Andy 1:10:32
Gotcha. Well, so that would that would take care of the another question that came from Twitter says What about states that puts you on the registry for life and there is no way or browses to be removed? Or you just f like, just close up shop go home?

Larry 1:10:47
Well, not necessarily. I mean, you are in that particular state. You’re you’re screwed, and to the point you can get the state to have a removal process. But there’s nothing as far as I know, we don’t have any states that have walls around The Dewey,

Andy 1:11:05
you could probably answer that better. Do you have any walls? it at least on the southern border of Well,

Larry 1:11:10
yeah, but that’s not a state to state wall that’s a nation today. No I know I know. But But as far as I know that you’re free to navigate this, these United States without any interference, you

Andy 1:11:19
could you could pick up shop, you’re not on supervision. So you just say yeah, I’m still going to be on the registry here. And so I can move from Alabama to whatever Wyoming Wisconsin pick a W state.

Larry 1:11:29
but you can reverse the process we just talked about, you could be registered an Alabama for life or Florida for life, and you could move to Georgia, and you could petition to be removed if you meet the Georgia criteria, and Georgia can relieve you of their elevation register. Now, I know you’re gonna tell me that Florida keeps you on the registry for the rest of your life. And I don’t need to hear that I’ve already heard 1000 times. But that doesn’t impose any obligations upon you. You don’t face prosecution for going to pick your kids up. from school, you’re not prohibited, go to a public swimming pool. You’re not you’re not restricted in where you can work because you’re listed on the Florida registry. If you’re a Georgia, all the things that put because you potential harm are not there other than the fact that somebody who does a Google search may find that you at one time were listed on the Florida Sex Offender Registry. But you tell them Well, that was a long time ago. Yes. I did have a sex offense of my past. And yes, they’ve cared that that lives in perpetuity, but I’m not registered today. I’ve got that. That’s a chapter of my life that’s closed. And I wish Florida didn’t keep you on the list. I I wish they did. But that’s what they do in Florida. So you Floridians either changed that law through the legislative process, or find some constitutional challenge. I don’t think your constitutional challenge is all that good. And I’ve told the Floridians that although I don’t agree with them keeping you listed. As long as it’s a truthful statement. You You were registered in Florida, and you were convicted of that offense. Is that correct? That is historically true. Yeah. Okay. So So if they suppressed the address that they’re putting in address that still is no longer current. But if they put living out of state, and they put whatever Florida conviction you have on the website that is historically true, that is not a constitutional violation. until until either our statutory laws evolve to make that information no longer public, or do we have some evolution in the courts where they decide to legislate from the bench and create a right to privacy that says that after a certain period of time, that your past is no longer your past? And therefore, it can’t be disclosed to the public but until then, there’s not a constitutional violation. Okay,

Larry 1:13:49
that should be that should give me plenty of hate mail this week shouldn’t it?

Andy 1:13:53
Yes, so crackpot at registrymatters.co. Do you do you think that it’s wise to get a second psychosexual evaluation before trying to do your removal process.

Larry 1:14:06
It is it is critically important to do that. Again, it’s not required by law. And in most instances, it’s not required by law. But we’re not talking about just what’s required by law. There’s a lot of things that I would tell you if I walked you through it that not required by law, but but you should do a psychosexual evaluation gives you something to present to both the prosecution and to the judge for the judge to hang his or her hat on to justify your removal. And I mean, I know that that that that the state evaluators are just splendid, and they’re just the most objective people you could ever find. But I prefer to have my own. I prefer to have a doctor that I have employed that I can call and I can ask questions so I can send the patient the client back. If something if if a test is unclear to me I prefer to be able to say, Dr. Galvin, I would like you to take another look at this because in view of what I know about this person, I think that you could dig a little deeper for us. And this would be more helpful. We don’t ask the doctor to render the opinion that we’re looking for, we ask the doctor to look at things that the doctor may have looked at. And then sometimes the doctor comes up with a different with a different answer. And I prefer to have a psychosexual evaluation to counter what they may have. Because as we as we go through the process that I’m going to walk through it, once we get to these questions of what I would do, that is something that you would want to do, and if you can’t afford it, I understand that that may be an option. It’s not available to everybody, but if it’s something you can do, you should do it.

Andy 1:15:45
How much do you think they cost?

Larry 1:15:48
Thousands anywhere from two to $5,000? Yeah, you could be spending a couple thousand to $5,000 on a psychosexual there. Well is the red is the registry as bad as you say it is.

Andy 1:15:58
Well, I’m just going to say your Probably like in cahoots with someone that does them in your pocket, some referral fees or something?

Larry 1:16:05
Oh, no, not at all. I think I should be But see, we don’t have a process here. So there’s no Cahoots to be in. But it’s just, it’s just up your odds of success.

Andy 1:16:18
I was talking to Paul Dubbeling, and I guess it was the Houston conference and asking him and he’s like, Look, all I’m trying to do is throw this you know, binder of 100 200 pages on the judge’s desk to provide him with cover so that he can say, hey, look, here’s the reason why I made this decision. He had all this he had this in his favorite he’s active in the community goes to this church. He’s, you know, all this stuff. He’s walked puppies across the street. So as far as I know, he was a good human being and my conscious was relieved by letting him off.

Larry 1:16:49
I agree with Paul and Paul do not fare seller disagree. And I agree with that completely. You want to empower the judge, but there are steps before you get to that. A judge but yes, you want to you want to give the judge as much as possible.

Andy 1:17:04
How about how do you find someone because you know, this is sort of an esoteric space, how do you find an attorney that is competent to represent you?

Larry 1:17:14
That is difficult, but you employ me to help you. That is, that is how you do that someone, someone that will tell you, things you don’t like to hear. And you, you pay me to help you. And, and it actually Actually, I don’t charge for that unless I have to make a special trip. But I have on occasion, I think you remember the case in Georgia where I worked on an appeal where we got a guy’s conviction set aside and I actually traveled to Georgia for him with him and

Andy 1:17:44
The on in Texas now I believe?

Larry 1:17:46
Yes, yes. that that person. Yes. Well, you have to know the right questions. This process, as law is open to anybody. If you’re licensed. You can do anything that the law allows you to do. So if you’re a licensed attorney, you can practice it in an area. But just because you can doesn’t mean it’s wise nor should you. And when you get when you get a drunk driving when you get a DWI or DUI, whatever they refer to it as your jurisdiction, you may find that there are attorneys who do DDP wise for $800 or $1,000. But that doesn’t mean that that’s who you should go with. You need to find if they’re competent enough or not, and and so that means asking the right questions. So the first thing you want to find out from the attorney as how many of these petitions they’ve done. So when when when you call them up and say, I want to talk to you about being removed from the sex offender registry, they say the what? You probably you probably walked away, probably don’t have the right attorney, even if it’s a family friend again. When I say when you say, Well, I’d like to petition to be removed from sex. To register, they say you want to do what?

Andy 1:19:06
But so I already asked you about the what kind of price range would you expect to pay for an attorney to do this. So you already said something like three grand for a psycho.

Larry 1:19:16
I would be surprised if a competent attorney but with charging in less than 2500 to $5,000. Because of the work that’s involved. I would be very, I will guarantee you this if we had the process and it’s the gatekeeper this office. I wouldn’t quote anything less than $5,000. But I would actually do the work. I mean, we could call it a $200 fee and do nothing and get get people pays 250 dollars all day long and say you lost but but in order to do the proper work, that that would be a justifiable fee. So I would expect it on the low side, you might get a fee quote of 20 $500 to $5,000. And then there’s our variables of your unique circumstances. If you’re in, let’s see Valdosta, which is right on the state line. And your conviction is for size, which is the county north of Atlanta, rather than the city of four sides, and you want and you your your attorney that you’d like to Valdosta is going to have to travel up there. So you’ve got, you’ve got traveled lady calls, but assuming this semi local within a 50 mile radius, that travel is not going to be a big factor. But you’ve got a lot of steps are involved. The first thing that I’m going to do if we had such a process, as I’m going to collect as much information from you as I can about you, and people people were very reluctant to tell you their their, their dark secrets about what they did. And in some cases that’s decades ago and they may not remember everything but people are reluctant, but I’m going to find out as much as I can about this offense that about you and what you’ve done Over the last few decades, and I’m going to find out how much the prosecution hated you at the time. If you know about it, I’m going to try to find out how that office felt about you and how they treated you. And where you high profile. Because, believe it or not prosecution offices keep files. It may come as a surprise to some people but but even though the very person handled your case may not be there, they still likely have a digitized file or maybe even a paper file on you. And so this is going back to their I want to find out as much as I can. And then I’m going to make a journey to the prosecution’s office. And I’m going to say, This guy has been a seller character for the last 32 years and I’m going to be bringing a petition potentially to get him off the registry. What is his office position going to be? Because I don’t need your $5,000 if they say we fight like hell on every one of them. And we’ve every one that we have opposed has been denied. I kind of dough right there. That that I’m not in good, good, good, good position. If I if I said not to mention the fact that this guy was a pain in the, you know what, and we hate him as much now as we did 25 years ago, that I’m going to come back to you and say, Well, you know, I did my luminaries, and they oppose everything in that particular jurisdiction. And there’s only been one out of 72 petitions granted, you can actually get those statistics from the Administrative Office of the Courts, you can actually find out every different cause cause of action, they code it with a type of petition that was filed, and you should be able to get those statistics but even if you can’t get it from from an Administrative Office of the Courts, as a practitioner, you should be able to query your defense listserv and ask people practice in that area. What the ratio is you need to know that information about who’s getting off, what judges are doing what with these petitions, and and what today’s office position is going to be on your client. You don’t care about anybody else but your client, but there was session is going to be and depending on their position that tells you how much work you’ve got to do. Because if you have any chance of winning, you better come in there with what Paul Dubin described. If they’re if their postures to be opposition and everything you better come in with a very good psychosexual evaluation, you better come in with a very strong candidate for removal, because the judge is going to be hesitant if the prosecution is tight and to sit down.

Andy 1:23:26
And the last one that I have is how long do you think it takes to put this together from, you know, even roughly like from the time that the initial contact with the lawyer, getting your counsel on the finding the right one to then submitting the packet to get in the judges calendar, and how long is that a two month process? Six months, five years?

Larry 1:23:47
I would, I would say six months to a year. And again, it’s going to vary according to jurisdiction. If you go to a small jurisdiction where the dockets not particularly heavy, they can probably schedule a hearing faster, but how fast it is not important. But it’s important if you if you’re never going to get off if something’s never going to be decided that doesn’t do you much good, but you don’t want a 60 day turnaround. Experience is not the issue. What you want here is thorough preparation to go to this hearing, and you want to be as prepared as you possibly can be. And if the judge takes some time, that’s generally a better thing for you because if a judge is going to die, it doesn’t take a lot of time because most of the cases let’s just take a look at what the Georgia statute says. A judge doesn’t have to decide much to deny you let’s let’s read verbatim I think I might put a copy at our folder deny for the for the Georgia removal process.

Larry 1:24:39
You did you put a copy in? (Andy: Yes, I did.) So. Okay. So okay. So the judge after after the hearing, it says it says a considered the petition. The court may consider and listen to this any evidence introduced by the petitioner. Now listen, that word it says may consider Doesn’t say shall consider the the the court may consider any evidence they respond, petitioner, any evidence introduced by the district attorney or sheriff, so the sheriff is also a part of this in Georgia, and any relevant evidence but the key word there is may consider. There’s no shoulder and it says the court shall hold a hearing on the petition of requested that’s pretty clear. You will get a hearing if you want one. And it says then the court may issue an order releasing the individual from registration requirements or residency or employment restrictions in whole or in part. If the court files by preponderance of evidence, that individual does not pose a substantial risk of perpetuating any future dangerous sexual offense. Now, again, listen very carefully. what that says is that despite everything you presented, it says the court may issue an order. Now if I had my druthers, I would like for that to say if you put preponderance of evidence which I don’t like the offender having to prove it, but I think that if you have shown by preponderance of evidence, I think that this should say, rather May, it should be shall issue an order. But this is what it says it says, may issue an order. So therefore, when you have this hearing, you want the judge to have as much time as he or she needs to make that decision. And often really back when you’d be a property management, when I used to make decisions on who was coming, and I had a weak applicant and almost thinking about whether I should rent to that person or not. And they would put pressure on me to make a decision. That’s I’ve got to know something and I say, well, you don’t if you really have to know something, I can give you an answer. It’s not gonna be what you’d like. Because I am contemplating your case, your circumstances. I’m still trying to reach out to your 14th cousin or whoever that preference was. It hasn’t called me back yet, and I’m still cogitating how I feel about you and you don’t meet our criteria. Are you asking me to make an exception? And I’m going to make an exception when I read, if I make it at all. And if you tell me you have to make a decision, I can give you a decision today, I have a feeling that the judges are going to feel the same way. If they’re, if they’re, if they’re in a, in a conundrum about what they’re going to do, whether they may release you or not, I don’t believe putting pressure on them produce for decision is going to be a good thing to do. It’s going to increase your odds because of the word made. Now if it said shell, I would feel differently, but I’m only going by what the law says in Georgia. And we are textualist here hold registry matters, aren’t we?

Andy 1:27:39
No, we’re not only that. Just to just to sharpen the question that I’m asking, though, about the timeline. I’m not trying to say hey, we’re gonna try and push the judge to come up with I’m just trying to set up some realistic expectations six,

Larry 1:27:51
six months to a year, six months to a year.

Andy 1:27:53
All right. Yeah. So I’d like to give the attorney time to protect prepare the things to get on the docket to get the judge time. do all those things? Well, we’ll answer

Larry 1:28:01
it. But guess what research I’ve got to find out about you. I’ve got to find out if you’re eligible, meaning that statutorily if you’re eligible, sometimes you’d like to be rebooted, you’re not eligible by the statute. So we’ve got to figure out, if you’re eligible, if you’ve got any integrity, you got to tell the person I’m sorry, you’re not eligible. This, you haven’t met the requirements to be removed. But if you if you’re statutorily eligible, then the journey to the prosecution office has to has to take place. It’s not required. I’m only telling you, this is what we would do. Because we need to know what they’re going to say. And the best way to find out what they’re going to say is to go talk to them and find out what they’re going to say, rather than speculating on what they might say. Now you can get a pretty good clue what they might say based on what they are saying but the other politicians have a similar nature. But that doesn’t tell me what they’re going to say about you about how much they don’t like you, I can only ask them and trust me if you’re pro se they will not tell you and I’ll likely They think about you. So, so that’s the big disadvantage of being precise. You’re not going to find out really where they were, where they where your opponent stands on this. We need to know where our opposition is and what buttons and levers are going to be pulling. We need to know if the sheriff has been as has got a dossier on you saying things that has concerned them during your period of registration, we need to know that before we get to the court hearing. That’s not a good thing to spring. That’s not a good thing to spring at the last minute we need to know all this stuff.

Andy 1:29:37
Well, those are all the questions that I could come up with my little pea-sized brain.

Larry 1:29:41
I think those are really great questions. I think those are great questions. But if you if you if you can go pro se i mean if you have to go pro se it’s hard for me to say do that than the alternative because if you don’t file we can be fairly certain you won’t get off if a petition is required. And if you could only do it pro se The worst thing you could have happen is you’ll end up in a position you’re in now, which is still registered. So I guess it you can do minimal harm. But what if you have this hearing pro se, and stuff comes out that shouldn’t have been allowed to come out? I don’t know how we undo that. If you do it pro se.

Andy 1:30:18
I do understand.

Larry 1:30:22
So, but but I hope that that people who who were contemplating the removal will prioritize it in terms of economically Yes, it’s expensive, but being on the registry is expensive. Not because of the fees. I mean, the fees are 50-hundred bucks or whatever

Andy 1:30:36
It’s the disabilities and restraints is your favorite expression.

Larry 1:30:38
Right, right the economic hardship. There are employers who will not hire you, if you’re on the registry because the insurance company will not condone that practice. And the same employer would have hired you with that same felony If you weren’t required to register, that may be the difference between a $7.25 cents At our job at a $19.50 cents an hour job, so therefore it might be worth it.

Andy 1:31:07
I think an economist would call it an opportunity cost.

Larry 1:31:10
Yes, that now of course, if you don’t have the money, again, I don’t have a solution for that that’s a downfall in the process that we have. Our processes are not designed for indigent people. This is this is one of the pitfalls we have in this country. We don’t do a lot this. This is a quasi-criminal proceeding. It goes back to the criminal judge in most instances. And yet it’s a civil proceeding. The registry is a civil regulatory scheme. It could be it could be argued that it’s a criminal proceeding, therefore since you’re going before the criminal judge, the judge has said what puts they will ask that as a civil judge in this matter, I’m sitting This is a civil matter that’s related to your criminal conviction, but I can understand if you don’t have access to any funds, it would take a lot of plasma donations to raise $6000-$8,000 they If I don’t know what it pays these days, but

Andy 1:32:03
Let’s call it 50 bucks.

Larry 1:32:06
Well, it would take a while to raise the thousands of dollars at 50 bucks. How often can you do plasma donations anyway?

Andy 1:32:12
I don’t know I’ve always considered that if somebody is doing that then you would have probably made some poor decisions leading up to that point and because you’ve got you’ve got problems. That’s how You’re gonna make money is selling biological fluids.

Larry 1:32:25
I think it’s a couple times a week, but you know, I know that when I when I managed over near the university, they would run ads on the student newspaper that say like you could earn like 180 bucks a month or something with extra spending cash and that was a long time ago, but I have no idea what any of that stuff does. I haven’t had to resort to doing that but people do it. And and thankfully people do do that because it’s needed.

Andy 1:32:49
Yes, yes. Yes. All right. I don’t have anything else on that. So are we ready to hit these two voicemails and get out of here?

Larry 1:32:56
Yeah, we are cuz we’re over time already.

Andy 1:32:59
We are way over Time. All right, so here’s the first one. And let me just let me just put this book and this is that if you’re gonna send us a voicemail, please don’t ramble around the subject and try and be concise and clear. Maybe type it out and read it. Somebody left voicemail and they were kind of all over the map. He had to call back. Oh, I forgot this. I’m not I’m not I can’t put all that together. So with that said, Here is voicemail number one.

Voicemail 1:33:25
Hey Registry Matters. Hey, what’s up everyone? I forgot to leave my name in the last two message. This is Brian from New York. My next question is, along those same lines, too. I’ve been offered jobs over the past few years. Most of them are for traveling to different states to like build fixtures, you know, fiber optic technician going state to state. My question also would be, would it be a heavy burden that I have to in order to go to the states do these job, I would have to register. And then with these registrations in different states comes restrictions, which might interfere with my job, which might interfere with me, you know, doing commerce, because I have to work around these things. So like I said, I know I’m not going to go to the state and get into any trouble. So I don’t expect to have any police contact. But or however, you never know with certain things. So I would like to know, would that be any grounds for a legal standing? Thank you, fyp.

Andy 1:34:37
different states have different requirements of once your boots are on the ground in there before you would have to register like Georgia? I think Georgia is kind of vague. It’s either seven or 14 days, depending on how you want to read it. And Florida’s 48 hours so everybody’s got their own rules. Is that what he’s asking?

Larry 1:34:55
I was thinking he was going a little deeper than that in terms of what if He registers while he’s working in a state are the restrictions that are imposed on registrants applicable to him? Yes, the answer is unless they’re exempt unless there’s an exemption for a temporary resident, everything that’s applied to, to someone who’s only going to be there as a resident for for a briefer period of time, the same restrictions apply. That was the way I took the question. And he his point was, that is that does those disabilities and restraints constitute grounds for a lawsuit? Because if, say, for example, he has a job. And I pulled this out of air because I didn’t talk to the person to say for example, he has a job. And the job is an exclusion zone. And he got offered that job, but the registry won’t let him do that job. He’s asking if that’s grounds for for a legal action. And yes, it is grounds but the likelihood of success, you’d have to evaluate carefully in terms of the body of the case law in that state you know, what has the state Supreme Court ruled on similar challenges? Have there been any? And then is there a federal constitutional claim? Would you be would you We better have to take it to the federal court to begin with? And so so we don’t know, we’d have to dig into the particular type of restrictions and how disabling they were to him in terms of his job. And the state would have plenty of defenses, they would say, well, we didn’t ask him to come here. And he could do other jobs other than this job. I mean, it would be it would be as all litigation is when you’re making constitutional challenges, it would be difficult because the presumption is in favor of constitutionality but yes, it that that would be that would be something where there would be, it would not be so laughable that you would get you would not get admonished for bringing the complaint, but can’t say your likelihood of success though I don’t know. I love the accent though. When you compare that with was my was my suit smooth southern drawl. Did you have one like that. So he’s got…

Andy 1:36:50
I’m from New York. Hey this is Brian from the New York, Forget about it. and I do a terrible rendition.

Larry 1:36:57
he probably gets a kick out of our southern drawl as much as I did out of his.

Andy 1:37:01
probably and he’s probably like what accent?

Andy 1:37:05
Alright then one from Jeff.

Jeff (Voicemail) 1:37:09
Hello, Larry. I’m Andy. This is Jeff from Kentucky and July 15, 2020. A new law goes into effect that is affecting registrants around here. It says, well, it is called Kentucky House Bill 204. And it says that they, that registrants may no longer live within 1000 feet of publicly leased playgrounds. And that’s something different than publicly owned playgrounds. The interesting thing about this law is it’s not being applied retroactively. And it even says that if you already live somewhere, you don’t have to move. And as far as public playgrounds are concerned, if one of those pops up or a school or daycare, you do have to move and I’m interested in that because normally The interesting thing about this bill is that they’re not applying it retroactively. And you don’t have to move if you already live somewhere, if one of these things pops up. I guess my question is, why do you think they worded the bill that way? As in Why are they not applying it retroactively? Because when they passed the law, saying that registrants could not could no longer be in parks in 2016. They did apply that retroactively, as in like, I was convicted in 2015. So I thought one day I would be able to go to parks again. But they passed a law saying that I could not go to parks and applied it retroactively. What is a publicly leased playground? And why did they not apply this retroactively? And as always, fyp.

Andy 1:38:46
Both callers tonight said fyp. I love it.

Larry 1:38:49
I have no idea what a private playground is. I would guess it would be something like an apartment complex but without more information, I don’t know. But the answer why did they not apply it retroactively. I guess They were being cautious about constitutional challenges, because more and more constitutional challenges are rendering retroactive application of various things unconstitutional. All you have to do is take a look at Does versus Snyder and on and on and on. So, and they are in the Sixth Circuit in Kentucky. I think. So I think that probably would be the answer to that. would be that out of constitutional concerns that they didn’t apply retroactively, but then I thought he said something in there that they were applying part of it retroactively. So I was a little confused. Because he said if…

Andy 1:39:29
I think he said he was talking about a previous law, though,

Larry 1:39:30
yeah, but if you’re if you play that again, I think at the very beginning he said that that part of it was applied retrospectively but but my my speculation would be because of concerns of constitutionality.

Andy 1:39:44
Okay. All right. And how about that accent?

Larry 1:39:47
That’s, that’s more to my liking.

Andy 1:39:52
Well, there you go. So that wraps up a another marathon show Larry.

Larry 1:39:56
That’s right. We’ve got we’ve had we’ve had a good one. I hope hopefully, we’ll get to A dozen new patrons next week. We haven’t had any new ones to report for a while.

Andy 1:40:04
So, so quickly Hey, you could go to registrymatters.co and you can find all of the show notes and every and all of the information from there. And that’s all I got.

Larry 1:40:14
Good night, Andy.

Andy 1:40:17
Goodnight Larry, have a great night. Talk to you soon. Bye.

 


Transcript of RM134: Seo v. Indiana State Supreme Court

Andy 0:00
registry matters as an independent production. The opinions and ideas here are that of the host and do not reflect the opinions of any other organization. If you have a problem with these thoughts fyp recording live from fyp Studios transmitted across the internet. This is Episode 134 of registry matters. Larry, Fourth of July you got big plans tonight for all the crashing banging booming and all that stuff.

Unknown Speaker 0:26
Well, there’s there’s no doubt there will be plenty of that in my neighborhood. There has been the entire week and last night I had to turn on two fans to try to drown it out. And even even that didn’t work.

Andy 0:38
I don’t even know I don’t know that I can even expand on this one but I have heard that there are people that are doing this to to paint the image in the protesters minds that we are in a war zone or something like that. I did you hear anything like that? Or am I completely nuts? I have not heard that. Okay, maybe Maybe I just dream did it dream? Is that a right word dream did?

Unknown Speaker 1:05
I don’t think so. All right, I think any night. Go ahead. Thank you. I think it’s drempt or something like that.

Andy 1:14
Okay. drempt joining us tonight is a super longtime patron longtime supporter and a very, very compassionate, nice individual named Mike and he’s from Florida, and wanted to come on and asks some questions to Larry like directly, and just go over some things and maybe put some victories in Larry’s like the wind column just to confirm some some things that Larry has said. Anyway, Mike, how are you tonight? Welcome. I’m good gentlemen.

Unknown Speaker 1:43
How are you?

Andy 1:44
Fantastic. Thank you for coming. Thank you for coming on short notice.

Unknown Speaker 1:48
Hey, thanks for letting me be on here. Appreciate it.

Andy 1:51
Where do you want to be in Do you want to begin with the the Larry was right segment or do you want to talk about Alabama.

Unknown Speaker 1:57
That’s pretty much my entire segment. The Larry He was correct segment. Okay, well,

Andy 2:02
great. Thanks for coming and talk to you later.

Unknown Speaker 2:05
I just want to say Larry’s correct all the time.

Andy 2:07
All right. You know, so let me let me tell you a little backstory. Someone told me when I first got involved in all of this stuff, I was like, Man, you really shouldn’t listen to Larry so much. He’s not quite as right as you think he might be. And I’m like, I don’t have any frame of reference to even think that Larry is ever wrong. But I mean, I don’t know I don’t know what I’m doing or talking about. So I was like, okay, but a Larry will tell you when he is wrong, but I don’t really have a whole lot of accounts of when he is wrong.

Unknown Speaker 2:35
Yes, sir. He’s batting 1000 in my experiences, things that I’ve had the information I’m getting from it.

Unknown Speaker 2:42
They appreciate that but boy, I’ll blow it from time to time and and sometimes they things come by left field that you don’t expect them. But but a lot of this stuff is just really, if you if you analyze why it’s the way it is. It’s it’s really not as complicated as we make it out to be and that’s hopefully what we do on this podcast as we simplify what people believe to be very complicated issues.

Andy 3:10
It is complicated there. They use some crazy word sometimes there and they doublespeak and they they backflip themselves and they twist themselves in knots in a super complicated in my mind. Tell us about tell us about what you wanted to bring up out of Florida though. Like

Unknown Speaker 3:27
Yeah, what did what did I get right Mike? I got to hear this.

Unknown Speaker 3:30
Yeah, there’s a couple things I wanted to, to comment on. First of all, let me just say that I you know, I’ve been a fan of this podcast since the early days when it was was pretty bad. It was rough beginning. We were talking about sound quality, and I followed you guys closely. I’ve never missed an episode ever. I’ve listened to every minute of every episode, so kind of a fanboy. And so I learned a lot from the podcast. So over the last year or so I’ve took some Some steps to try to attempt to get myself off the registry in the state of Florida. Pirate have a very good attorney, one that has been successful in doing so. And as this happened, a lot of the things that I’ve heard, you know, explained on this podcast, mostly from Larry, you know, when he explains how things are going to work a lot, a lot of this started unfolding, and I was watching it, I wasn’t surprised by any of it. I’ll start with the petition that we did a few months back when I went to court here in Central Florida. And so basically, I’ve been on the registry since the day it started the state of Florida. I was convicted of a felony offense from I was 16 years old, but they convicted me as an adult. You know, fast forward, go to do my time in prison, get out, come home, done with everything. And then you know, all of a sudden Here comes the registry. Yeah, that wasn’t part Any deal that we made the beginning, but everybody knows about how that works. So that’s been, you know, they the, at one point, the registry removal process only had a 20 year time limit at the state of Florida. And at some point, they changed that in the past few years. I don’t know what year it was. But they changed it to 25 years. And then one of the requirements and I’ll bring up one of the stipulations in it, and it was really the one that kind of hung me when I went back on my petition was you can’t have any misdemeanor or any felony, since you were released from your probation, any kind of supervision. I had a failure to register in 2002. And it was from my ignorance. Back then I didn’t have a computer. I don’t remember if I had been on the internet or not yet. And things used to come on a postcard when they updated the legislation. Sometimes you’d get it Sometimes you didn’t. And so basically I moved residences and didn’t change my address within 48 hour timeframe. Didn’t at the time, and it’s my fault. I didn’t know what was the law. I didn’t realize it was a 48 hour window. So my home was burglarized while I was at work. I called the local police department, they came out, did their thing, realize that I hadn’t changed my address, and a few few days later came back and arrested me and that was how I ended up on this failure to register. So fast forward now to 2018, which was when we filed the petition. The attorney that I used, has had a lot of success in the state of Florida petitioning removal for people who have had a

Unknown Speaker 6:50
felony or misdemeanor since then. But what they’ve done is they’ve sort of post dated the removal date, and they’ve gotten court orders and I have seen many of them with my own eyes, I went over them, because I didn’t just hand my money over, you know, willy nilly to anybody that said they could do this. And the attorney was very upfront with me and explained to me that there was about an 80% chance that this could go through and there was a chance that it might not. So what I wanted to touch on, which is important for the listeners and people to understand is that Larry constantly talks about how people interpret the law. And that’s something I’ve heard him say many, many times, and I’m sure everyone else has to and he talks about the the textual Listen, the what is it the judicial activists, then he makes that distinction many times. Well, when I went to court, they read the judge that I dealt with, read the statute, exactly, verbatim word for word, the way it was written. And even read it back to my attorney. And my attorney argued with her and hey, there’s a plenty of other judges in the state that have already signed off on these and donees. And she said, Yeah, but this is how it reads, this is my interpretation of it. And this is what you know how I’m going to decide. So I’m sitting there watching everything and in real time, and I’m thinking about every time Larry’s brought this up, and I’m like, this is exactly, you know, what I was paired for. I knew that this could happen this way. She said, you have this, you know, felony conviction, it’s 18 years 1718 years ago. And I cannot do this, because this is what the law says. Now and the judges, the fence earlier, had mentioned the temperature of the judge and you know, before the show conversation, the judge was very, very friendly, I guess I should say, very kind. She did tell me there, that if this case was brought before her today, it would not be prosecuted. She’s said that I should have never been prosecuted. And she told my attorney this. And she said, I can’t get you off of this today. She said, but here’s how I want you to do it. Do it this way and come back to me. And I can do this. So she did give him a legal Avenue, you know, on how to do it properly. So the whole experience wasn’t negative. But the reason I wanted to share it with people is if, you know, if you’re considering this move, you’re gonna have to take into account that what he’s been saying all this time is true. One judge may not interpret this the same as another. how that’s possible. I don’t know. But I’ve seen proof of it. And you know, I witnessed it myself. So you know, what Larry’s been talking about for the past. Now, however long we’ve been y’all been doing this podcast for a couple years now. I guess. It’s very accurate. You got to take the notion out of it that you’re going to go to court and you’re going to explain to them Well, here’s what you know. Understand, here’s what happened. That’s not going to happen. They’re going to they’re going to look at the law read it the way it is, in my experience, and that’s what they’re gonna go by, you know, the only thing they did ask me, the judge did ask me my opinion on was what? Why was arrested for failure to register? And I’ve just explained to you know, I had no idea the law was what it was. I called the police to my house and they, they came back and arrested me and they argued that they never called the person that broken in my home. But, you know, they came back got me, they found me. So

Andy 10:35
I got somebody for something.

Unknown Speaker 10:38
They didn’t waste their money, you know, the taxpayers dollars went hard or they got a dangerous burglary victim off the street.

Unknown Speaker 10:46
So Mike, I ask a question or two I we haven’t done any pre show discussion of this. Just speak out. So what what I would what I would caution people when When I say please go talk to the prosecutor. I don’t mean you personally. But a judge can do anything that judge wants to do. If the prosecution is not going to appeal, the only thing that ties the judges hands? Well, actually, there’s two things I shouldn’t say like, one thing, there are two things that ties a judge’s hand. One is if there’s going to be on appeal. And if a prosecutor will agree not to object to something, then there’s not going to be an appeal on behalf of the State of Florida. So therefore, a judge could overlook the the waiting period if it’s not going to be on an appeal. So that’s why I say, Go take the temperature of the prosecutor find out if they will stand silent, find out if they’re going to strenuously object, what is their posture going to be on this in this proceeding, because you need to know that before you lay all your money on the table. And and and the other thing that would constrain a judge would be if the judge is elected, in particular in the southern states that tends to be more the norm than the exception. If we’re coming up on the decision of judges making in June, and they’re facing election in November, they’re going to feel the constraints of what you’re going to want to do. If you have a case scheduled an election year, you would you want to try to put that thing past the election. So you tell your attorney Well, you know, I’m not it’s hard to get off the register as much as I thought it was. And you’d want you’d want to, you’d want to get past the voter scrutiny, because if if the judge, in fact has an opponent, that would be fodder for the opposition to say he’s letting he or she’s letting these people off the registry and endangering the citizens of our county. So those are additional considerations that would come into play.

Unknown Speaker 12:42
Yeah, I understand that. That makes a that makes a good point. And my attorney did actually reach out to them beforehand. And the prosecution was absolutely against it when we went in now after the judge made the comments in the The position known that she wanted to go with, she said, if you will go ahead and just withdraw your petition. Now, we will ask that the state lets you do it without prejudice. And you can come back and then come back and do it the way I told you to do it. And so that’s what we did. And you know, where that’s where we’re at now with it. So, you know, I’m not a legal mind, but I did. It was pretty. It was nice for me to go in, and I had a sense of what may happen. And I was very prepared. Believe it or not, I learned a lot from this podcast. So I wasn’t totally blindsided. When I went in a lot of things I heard I’m like, Okay, this makes sense. And the judge was very fair. You know, they did not treat me bad. They were very reasonable, which I know people probably want to say. I’ve heard so many stories about bad judges and things like that. But um, I didn’t have that experience. The prosecutor was pretty hostile. But after the judge made the position, known And that seemed to calm down quite a bit. And then she agreed to do what the judge wanted to do when we came back. She said she would have no problem with that. So that’s where we’re at with that. And I just wanted to, you know, let people know, a lot of what you’re saying on here is not just, you’re not just talking this, this is how it’s actually gonna go down when you get there. And I did have them. If you don’t I mean, if you have any more questions about this particular petition, feel free to ask because it was. I mean, it’s a quick process, it does not take long once you file it, you’re in court pretty quick. And well, as well, go ahead.

Unknown Speaker 14:38
I would say that that what what I would caution people to do is, if your state does have a removal process, be prepared to spend money. You’re going to need a psychosexual evaluation, even if the statute doesn’t require it. It’s good to have and and and if you don’t want to Judge to order the state assessment board to assess you because you might not like the outcome. So be prepared to spend some money. But your your preliminary work is the most important. You need to find out how many of these cases that the attorney has done successfully, particularly the jurisdiction that you’re forced to file in, because it’s generally going to be where you were convicted, because it’s a part of an ongoing criminal proceeding. If you if you move to a state that has a process, you’re convicted of another state, you may get to file it where you’re living. And that would give you the option to do a little bit of form shopping as we call it. But take all this stuff seriously. If the attorney can’t tell you they’ve successfully done these petitions, and they can’t tell you what the temperature level is that prosecution office, how they’re going to react, if they have a standing policies they that they vigorously oppose everything. If the attorney cannot give you these answers, you do not want that person to be your attorney. And you you want to you Want to have that information because if we had such a process in this state, that would be the first thing I would tell you, I’d say, well, you’re at your file that you’re forced to file in Socorro County, I just pulled that one out of the hat because we don’t have such a process. But there’s only two district judges of the Carroll County. And neither one of them have granted a petition in the last three years, not knowing what I’ve just told you. And knowing that you’re going to have to spend somebody to have a psychosexual evaluation for us to have any chance. Let me go talk to the prosecutor and find out if there’s ever a situation where they don’t vigorously oppose it. And if I come back to you and tell you, they’re going to vigorously oppose you. And these are the two judges have ever granted a petition. You all not want to give me your money. But the funny thing is, you will leave my office and you’ll go give some money to someone else. That tells you what I didn’t tell you but they tell you what you would prefer to hear

Unknown Speaker 17:00
Now that I made sure that I didn’t, I didn’t have a yes, man. Before I went into this, I actually saw quite a bit of history. Before we got this done. He showed me many, many cases that he had done recently as many as or as recent as the week before, the only thing that he couldn’t speak to and not and it wasn’t his fault was really in the the district where I ended up going back to court. He had never handled one there. But after the judge saw the charges and saw the case, and she she spoke on that she said that, you know, I told you what she said that she would have never I would have never been on it in today’s in today’s you know, criminal proceedings, whatever. She said that, um, I shouldn’t be on it and that she would have no problem taking me off of it. If we did the way she laid out and she laid that out for my attorney. And he and you know, I understood it. I’m sure he did. In the prosecution said that at the time they were in class. to agree with that, so we’ll see how it goes. And I’m glad to hear that. Yeah, that’s what she said, You know, this, we’ll see. And it wasn’t a horrible experience. And I have had, you know, I had that failure to register out of ignorance in the last 31 years. So it’s not like, you know, I was out there, ripping and roaring and, you know, committing crimes that they’d had it overlook a bunch of them. But unfortunately, that one felony is pretty much what hung me if it wouldn’t have been for that I would have been, it would have been a done deal. But well, biggest, biggest reason I called was just to let you know, you guys know that. Larry, what you’ve been saying is accurate when you get in there, and that’s good advice. And if, if someone doesn’t want to take this advice from you, they can take it from me, before you go and put down your 10 grand or whatever it is you’re going to spend. You better get some answers. You better figure it out, because you’ll be just throwing money away. You’d be better off putting that money in our solar FEC fraud Action Committee. Before you throw it away on a lawyer that’s just gonna gonna waste your money when you’re not ever going to be eligible, you know, or you’re going into a hostile environment, that’s not gonna let anybody off under any circumstances.

Unknown Speaker 19:08
Or maybe even putting it in registry matters podcast. Whoo. That’s what I did.

Andy 19:15
Also, but with that, you would also get your hopes up that something’s going to be effective. And you’re going to waste some time that you could spend putting your energy into something that may be effective or if you’re just dead in the water to begin with.

Unknown Speaker 19:27
Yeah, absolutely. It’s better to know, you know, it’s good to know that.

Unknown Speaker 19:31
Well, I will say this about if I don’t know what the offense, we’ve never talked about the details, but it’s exceedingly difficult to try a juvenile and adult court here. So chances are they would never have gotten an adult court here. And chances are you just would never have been a miserable part of your life for the last 31 years because we don’t we don’t put juveniles on the registry. And we don’t put juveniles in adult court. It’s an extremely rare circumstances.

Unknown Speaker 19:58
Yeah, well, welcome to Florida brothers.

Andy 20:02
trying to do and finish your sentence like,

Unknown Speaker 20:05
I’ve just in the state of Florida, you know if you can walk and talk and you can commit an offense or a perceived offense, yeah, they’ll they’ll take you to court. They’ll put you somewhere.

Andy 20:15
What do you what do you have going on in in Alabama that you’re trying to get some?

Unknown Speaker 20:19
Yes, sir. You have a father as an Alabama and he’s been pretty cool for quite a while. So last week, I’m making plans to go see him. So I called the Alabama State Police and said, Hey, you know, register in another state or one visit your state? I can’t find anything online. I need some information about visiting there and what you’re, you know, what it says about visitors and I couldn’t answer the question. She said, Well, what you need to do is you need to call the county where you follow the lives and and ask them what what they say. So okay. I thought it was an odd answer, but she couldn’t answer the question. So I called the county and the I think the population in that county somewhere around or that little town It’s probably 15,000 people, which is pretty small. So I get shuffled around a couple times and I get this. What you’d imagine a good old boy sounds like he kind of sounds like Larry’s impersonation of them liberal do gooders is how he came off on the, on the phone and I said, Hey, I want to come visit. I’m father lives here, and what is the requirements? And he says, Well, I need your name and your Yeah, your social security number and all that good stuff. And I said, No, you don’t you don’t need all that just to tell me what the requirement is. Well, what’s the requirement? He said, Well, it’s probably best if you just come by here on your way in and give me your driver’s license and tell me you’re here. And then you can just swing back home by when you’re on your way out and you can you can, you know, let me know you’re leaving. He says, I treat all my guys real good over here. And I told him, I said, I don’t have any experience with it being good just swinging on by you know, and let you know, I’m coming. And out, I said, Oh, I’m smart enough to read this for myself. And I don’t see anything we, you know, I don’t see any law that addresses this. There’s, they talk about moving there, they talk about moving there to work and go to school. But visiting the from what I understand is if you’re not there more than 30 days consecutively, you can visit. So, anyway, the guy was, he was just winging it. He was just like, Hey, you know, this is what I do. And I said, No, sir, I’m not gonna do that. I said, I’m from Florida. No, I’m smart enough to read the statutes and figure out for myself and you can’t give me a straight answer. So, and he asked me for my name several times, and I just said, No, we’re not gonna do that. So now I just said, Thank you and have a nice day and got off the phone. But, um, yeah, you just can’t, in my opinion, when you call these places, you just can’t trust what these people will tell you. You’re gonna have to verify it for yourself. And if you don’t have to, I am learning that I don’t recommend tell them you’re human. If you’re not if you’re not by law, supposed to do So I’m not telling them because I don’t emit any of that radiation that Larry talks about that I know of. So, as long as I’m not breaking any laws, I don’t see any reason to swing by and see this good old boy and give you my personal information and, you know, deal with that nonsense.

Unknown Speaker 23:16
That was my experience with Alabama.

Andy 23:20
Didn’t you tell me that he was a little bit more hostile to you and a little more condescending? It seems like how you can talk about this.

Unknown Speaker 23:28
He basically came off like a

Unknown Speaker 23:32
just kind of like an old stereotypical racist redneck you would see on these shows, like he was talking down to you, boy, that kind of thing. That’s how he came, right?

Unknown Speaker 23:41
Yeah, boy.

Unknown Speaker 23:43
Exactly. That’s that’s, that’s pretty. I’m being polite. That’s that’s what he sounded. And I told him, I said, Yeah, I don’t think so. So, he was he was trying to play some games. But I just wanted

Andy 23:56
what is what is the statute in Alabama then for you, visiting

Unknown Speaker 24:00
As far as I can tell from everything that I’ve read, I’ve checked wiki narshall. And I check their, their website. As long as you’re not there for more than I think it’s 30 days, you can visit as long as you’re not working or going to school, or show intent to you know, have an address. So in other words, if you go there, and you get a job, you better register or if you go there and you start going to school, you better register but if you’re just visiting, I think you have a set amount of days and I’m pretty sure it was 30 days or no more than 30 days and you know, in a year but that’s you know, from what I understood, that’s what it was.

Unknown Speaker 24:39
What do you think like, Mike pull the statute for Alabama, the complete total and it has, it has 75 pages. I don’t believe I’ve ever seen one that was 75 pages before and I did a I did a quick scan of it all before. We started recording. And I’m not so sure that I agree with you on that. But what I will say is that I don’t think they would be able to answer the question because I’m trained in this business. And I don’t see anything that addresses visitors

Unknown Speaker 25:20
at all, but

Unknown Speaker 25:22
I was promised people that, although they do have to cite to a section of law, if they’re going to do a successful prosecution, they have to put on a piece of paper and a charging instrument, what section of code that you violated. Because if they didn’t do that, you wouldn’t be able to mount a defense. You wouldn’t know what the elements are what what what you say they have to tell you when you did it, and what section of law you violated. And I can’t see a section of law that they could that I could cite to that would be sufficiently clear that would generate a conviction if to court for working Anything at all, in the way of trying to administer justice, I just can’t see it. See it here if you’re merely visiting. But I can see on the other hand how people would read this. And they could conclude that it says what they would like it to say, which is everybody seems to want to have an obligation to register when their interest isn’t state visiting. They believe somehow they should have to register. Because in their state, perhaps state they have such a requirement that if you’re physically present, but there’s a lot of states that that were the state does not have a provision that addresses temporary, physical presence. But if you’re if you are registered in Alabama, it’s clear that they’ve defined

Unknown Speaker 26:49
they’ve defined

Unknown Speaker 26:51
what living means if you’re if you actually are covered. What reside means that it this is this tops Maryland. I think that A marijuana user should get a kick out of this to be habitually or systematically present at a place, whether a PR whether a placement, or excuse me, whether a person is residing at a place shall be determined by the totality of the circumstances, which lends itself to a lot of subjectivity including the amount of time the person spends at the place, and the nature of the person’s conduct at the place. The term reside includes but it’s not limited to spending more than four hours a day at the place on three or four consecutive days, studying more than four hours a day at the place on Tinder work aggregate days during a calendar bot, or spending at about of time at the place occupied with statements or actions that indicate an intent to live at the place or to remain at the place for a period specified in the sentence. A person does not have to conduct an overnight visit to reside at a place. Now I love that like this business I have no idea what that means. Yeah, that’s insane.

Unknown Speaker 28:05
And what is the place?

Andy 28:05
Wow, you’re gonna sort of kind of stay at the place, but maybe not but sort of think about? Well, that’s that’s one of your people that writes these things.

Unknown Speaker 28:20
No, no this this would have come from law enforcement. This is something that they would have said, and since Alabama doesn’t have any advocates or didn’t have time to thought that they were missing the registry. The most draconian changes occurred occurred during the rally administration, which was, which was a number of years ago, Alabama at one time didn’t have too bad of a registry. But they changed it in the early 2000s. Somewhere in the early before, before we hit 2010. And I believe it was under Governor Bob Riley, but I don’t blame him for it because he only he only gets to decide what passes if you don’t if you can’t get it to the government or the government can’t sign it. Somehow our people lose track of that Governor’s could only sign presidents can only sign what makes it to their desk. But this this, I think the top Maryland Maryland has this. This four days, four hours, seven days or four days a random by no with more clarity what it says but I think it’s this I think this tops what Marilyn Has

Andy 29:18
she didn’t say in chat that it’s worse or worse. So a transcriptionist get that one.

Unknown Speaker 29:26
I do not believe that, that there, there are specific coverage for visitors. But that is not to say that they won’t tell you that there is because now you got to remember, you’re calling an elected official. These are local elected officials, sheriffs, and even police there. There’s political angle because they have to go through some process to become police chief and if you ship by a mayor or council appointment, but you’re calling people and you say I’m a sexual offender, I would like to visit your territory. They’re not Likely say, well, you just come on, stay here as long as you want, and have a good time. And we’re pretending like we don’t. We don’t know you’re here. I mean, they’re not likely to say that. So they feel like they have to tell you something. And beyond that, if they tell you what if you call and say, Well, I won’t know what the rules are, how would you respond if they said, Well, you know, we’ve had our legal team Look at this. And actually, we don’t think there really is anything that addresses a temporary visit. So, in our opinion, though, I’m not a lawyer that I’m not sure you have to do anything. Would you hang up the phone and be satisfied with that? Are you do you think they’re trying to lure you in so they could so that they can put the handcuffs on you? Would you be would you be trusting of that advice, where they said, I don’t think there really is a requirement? At least our legal people tell us that there’s not such a requirement? What would you say then?

Unknown Speaker 30:49
I wouldn’t trust it at all. That’s why I didn’t get my name. So I’m saying so

Unknown Speaker 30:53
so I think there’s a no win situation. If they say come on. We want all the sex winners to visit we can that’s a that’s a loser. If they said, Well, we don’t think there is a requirement, that’s a loser because nobody wants to hear that. And particularly the citizens of that county, they don’t Well, they would they’d be appalled if they do. There was no, there was no coverage for a person busy. So I think I don’t ever advise anyone to break the law. But if the law is not crystal clear that you have to re register after being physically present, I don’t know why you want to place an obligation on yourself that isn’t in the statute. That boggles my mind that that you want to go do something that’s not clearly defined. I only want to do what I know I have to do. If it says I have to renew, if it says I have to renew my driver’s license every eight years. Why would I go in every year?

Andy 31:42
Isn’t there some sort of like, like a blanket thing about the hovercraft if you know that the hovercraft is going to be following you then you should do extra things because you know, the hovercraft is coming about

Unknown Speaker 31:52
well, you know, we we talked about last week there hovercraft made it might actually be out there. But But Even if the hovercraft is there, if there’s not a particular section of law that you’re in violation of, I would hate to be. If I were working on the prosecution side, I would hate to try to draft a complaint, utilizing the language that I just read

Andy 32:17
about the place

Unknown Speaker 32:19
I would hate to have to do to put forth a complaint to try to secure a conviction based on that. I’m not saying they don’t do it, I’m sure they do it all the time. But I would find that so. so confusing that as a as a drafter, I wouldn’t be able to draft up the complaint.

Andy 32:38
Very interesting. Um, Mike, is there anything else that you wanted to hit before we send you on your way?

Unknown Speaker 32:45
Sure. I did have one more quick comment or question for Larry. Larry, last week, I called FB le I had a question about I don’t know a small business that I work on the side of my Yeah, it’s it’s But I call Plan B, for my full time job if it ever fails, I’ve got something hit the ground running with. And there were some questions about the legality of it. And so, and my registration requirements, so I called FDA Lee said, Hey, here’s my question. So the first person I helped to said, Well, here’s how I interpret it. But I’m not 100% sure, let me ask a supervisor. Can I call you back? I said, Sure. So a few minutes later, supervisor calls me back, asked me the question, I explained it to her. She goes, Well, here’s how I interpret it. She said, but what you want to do is call the local sheriff’s office where you live and ask them how they interpret it, because they’ll be the ones arresting you. And I said, let me get this straight. You’re, you know, you’re fbla and you’re in the registration department and you’re taking these calls, but you don’t understand this and I need to ask a sheriff behind a desk, or you know, it’s whoever works in the registration department, how they interpret it is They’ll be the ones who arrested me. I said, it’s a little sketchy. But so I called and I got someone there. And they gave me their interpretation of it. And I asked to speak to a supervisor, they accommodated that and I got explained it to me, and he interpreted it the same way. The upside to it was all four of them interpreted it the exact same way, which was fine. I was just trying to fact check something to make sure I was, you know, in compliance. And, but I just want to know what you thought of the FDA. Registration, people telling me to call the local Sheriff’s Department, because they would be the ones arresting me and how they interpret it. I mean,

Unknown Speaker 34:38
does that sound right to you? It does, and for those who are not in Florida, that’s the Florida Department of law enforcement. But But, but it does. Well, that’s one of the pitfalls of having a local administration of the registry versus State Administration. Because sheriff’s are elected in their own right and FDA can really not Tell them what to do. In terms of terms of use, you could not order a share not to prosecute someone if they felt they were in violation of the registry. Now, ultimately, it would be if you contested that violation and you took it to trial it would ultimately be up to a judge or jury if you if you decided to go to a jury of the only question, it would be up to a judge or jury or unless it was something where you could procedurally can it with with with emotion, sometimes you can concede every point of the complaint and say, but even if I did ever say they alleged, it doesn’t constitute a law you can get a dismissal without having to go to trial. But But I would, I would say that that does sound consistent with what you would hear in a state where the sheriff’s manage the registry. The FDA just maintains internet and they and they they get make recommendations, but but ultimately, the sheriff Is there a little fiefdom.

Unknown Speaker 35:56
Well, Mike, there you go.

Unknown Speaker 35:59
Well, I mean, It is what it is. Fortunately for me where I’m at in the county, I’m a down in Central Florida. The registration people that work there, whether it comes down from the top or not, I mean, I’ve gone through I don’t know how many sheriff’s I’ve been elected since I’ve been registered, registering the people that have been there have been they’ve been very cordial, very friendly. I haven’t, you know, they’ve, they’ve been treating us. They treat they’ve treated me very friendly, very kindly. And, you know, I’d like to say, you know, that they’re evil, and they’re mean, and they’re terrible, but that just hasn’t been the case. They’ve been some decent people. And I wanted to make sure I was in compliance, and I knew quite a few of them by first name now because I’ve been going for so many years. And But anyway, that’s really all I had, I just wanted to kind of bring to light some of the stuff that you know, Larry has talked about you guys brought on here. It’s very accurate and it’s good information if you mind it for what it’s worth. And, you know, take it and especially if you’re going to mount a legal chapter Listen to what Larry’s been saying about finding out about the judge about the prosecution. I did all that research before I went in, I found out who put the judge in office, what governor was there who, you know, what their political party was. I did as much research as I could to try to, you know, educate myself and my lawyer did as well. So, but I really appreciate you letting me come on here and bore people to sleep. But, uh, I love podcasts. And I really appreciate what y’all do. I’m, I listened to it till the last one.

Unknown Speaker 37:33
So, well, let me let me have your address, please. And I’ll mail you a check.

Andy 37:38
Right. I’m saying

Unknown Speaker 37:41
we’ll just make it out. registry matters cast. That’s fine. I’ll gladly give it to those guys.

Unknown Speaker 37:49
So well, it was very kind words. I really appreciate that and hopefully that the people that listen to the podcast will benefit from that wisdom of we really are trying to get You’re in the right direction. We hate to see you spend your money needlessly, unless you just have money to burn it. And most people don’t do it or in this situation.

Andy 38:11
Mike, I appreciate it. You’ve been a super longtime patron and a very generous one. And we text frequently throughout the week, and I enjoyed them and I also enjoyed pictures of your dogs very much. They’re very sweet. And I think that you you have a you have a pound puppy space. That’s awesome.

Unknown Speaker 38:27
Yeah, that’s how we roll.

Andy 38:29
Have a great fourth man.

Unknown Speaker 38:30
Enjoy your fan. Thank you. All right, good night.

Andy 38:32
All right, bye. Ready to be a part of registry matters. Get links at registry matters.co. If you need to be all discreet about it, contact them by email registry matters cast@gmail.com you can call or text a ransom message to 747-227-4477 want to support registry matters on a monthly basis. We head to patreon.com slash registry matters. Not ready to become a patron. Give a five star review at Apple podcasts or Stitcher or tell your buddies that your treatment class about the podcast. We want to send out a big heartfelt support for those on the registry. Keep fighting without you, we can’t succeed. You make it possible. There are you ready to knock out these cases. Let’s do it.

Unknown Speaker 39:28
All right, I’m ready. I’m ready. I’m ready for some first some explosions.

Andy 39:32
Some explosions. All right. Bam, bam, bam. Alright, the first one is uh, I’m happy that you send me articles so I don’t have to read all the legally so the first one is coming out of tech dirt. And it says Indiana Supreme Court says compelled decryption of smartphones violates the Fifth Amendment. I somehow have a feeling there that you put this in here on my behalf.

Unknown Speaker 39:54
I did indeed there

Andy 39:57
is a woman who had Phone and they said unlock it. And she said no. And then anyway, so a judge has said that she doesn’t have to do it. And I’m definitely gonna highlight some of the things that I think are important about it. But please give me your side of it before we dive in.

Unknown Speaker 40:15
Well, now, you know we have that segment of general rules. Yeah. I think that this one would belong in that segment of, of Larry’s general rules.

Andy 40:27
This is the general rules of criminality.

Unknown Speaker 40:29
Yes.

Unknown Speaker 40:31
Yeah, the, the lady in this she had

Unknown Speaker 40:36
called the police on her boyfriend. The only problem is that she was the one committing the crime and her phone revealed that she’d been making a lot of harassing phone calls to him. So as a general rule, I would encourage anyone who is stalking or harassing and doing naughty things for their telephone. You ought not call the police Get in a position where you turn your phone over to the police. I would strongly encourage you not to do that.

Andy 41:08
All right. I think that sounds fair you don’t call the Popo when you’re doing things that are bad.

Unknown Speaker 41:13
Well, especially if you’re going to have to if you’re by be asked for your phone

Andy 41:18
well, so Caitlin CEO of the game that they’re going to ask for your phone just sort of general practice.

Unknown Speaker 41:26
Well, let’s just read the facts procedural history. It’s not that long Caitlin’s the old contact her local Sheriff’s Department claiming DS had raped her to Texas bill Inglis met with CEO and told and she told him her smartphone I seven plus contain relevant communications with accused with sealskin said office was completed forensic download and returned it and so that so she initiated the contact with the police and then detective English learn that seals first contact with the from a proper phone number and then a then he learned that That that a DS had been receiving up to 30 calls or text messages daily, from different unassigned numbers, so he was spoofing. So so like I say, if you’re, if you’re if you’re gonna accuse someone of a crime, particularly a sex crime, you probably ought not have been doing anything naughty on your telephone. I would just say that as a word of advice, but I don’t

Andy 42:24
think that’s fair to start. I think though, that you’ve you’ve stated though, that you think that it and and I don’t, and I don’t disagree with you necessarily. But if you have a safe in your house that has all the bad stuff that you’ve been doing, and they’re going to either ask you for the combination, and they’re going to get into it or they’re going to break it open, which will take them longer depending on the safe but they’re going to get in they’re going to get your naughty stuff.

Unknown Speaker 42:48
Well, this is more confusing, and I’ve read the the opinion and and i think that that we need to talk about it briefly. Maybe come back to it in a future episode, but What what it seems to come down to is whether or not

Unknown Speaker 43:06
the law enforcement

Unknown Speaker 43:09
was wanting to go on a fishing expedition. And, and the they didn’t really know what they were fishing for. And if you’ve ever seen an affidavit for a search warrant, you don’t. You don’t have you shouldn’t have I shouldn’t say you don’t but you shouldn’t have a search warrant granted, that’s vague and devoid of specifics, you are looking for a specific item or items. And you you you state the reasons why you believe those items will be found within the contours of the area that you’re asking to have searched. This officer did not know what he was going to find. He just wanted to go fishing through the phone because the the dsx was saying that he was getting all these calls and text messages they could have been coming from her But maybe they weren’t. Hmm. And and so the what it seems to turn on is there was not sufficient precision in the request by the officer. He wanted to go fishing. But, but if you’re inevitably going to discover what you know, is there, it seems like the way I interpret this is the court. The court is more lenient, if you know what you’re looking for, but you can’t go fishing. And that’s what he was doing. He was wanting to go on a fishing expedition.

Andy 44:35
What about the part of this, this is the part that I’m interested in that I get that your phone can be used in the commission of crimes and you could be committing multiple different kinds of crimes. And so they’re looking for crime kind of a and while they’re looking at your phone, they find crime can kind of be they didn’t get a search warrant for crime be where does that where does It fit in the equation.

Unknown Speaker 45:01
Well, that’s that’s what’s confusing the court as well, they don’t know. But but it’s the same thing happens when you’re doing a regular search of a physical dwelling. When you when you’re looking for with specific items, and you uncover other items, you go back to court and ask for a warrant based on probable cause that you believe you’ll find it because the probable cause is pretty good, because you’ve already found it.

Unknown Speaker 45:24
Yep.

Andy 45:28
Some other points that were brought up, though, which I should have thought of, but I frankly hadn’t. Many people have, when they go to my website, it automatically logs on for them. So now that you’ve unlocked the phone, and now you have perhaps automatically logged into their bank, or, you know, or Facebook or all these other places that they didn’t get a search warrant for. And I know that organizations use Dropbox heavily. So now you’ve just granted them access to all of that data to I know that

Unknown Speaker 45:55
that’s into decision. Did you did you read that decision. That’s it here.

Andy 46:00
I didn’t read the decision letter that I read. I read the actual article though,

Unknown Speaker 46:04
on page nine. If you pull it up on the highlights page nine for example, if officers searching a suspect smartphone encounter an application or website protected by another password, will they need a separate motion to compel the suspect to unlock that application or website and with the foregone conclusion exception apply to that active production as well? Suppose a law enforcement. Suppose law enforcement opens an application website and the password puppets automatically, which is what you just said. Can officers legally read that information? Or Or what if a suspect has a cloud storage device like iCloud or Dropbox installed on a device, which could take contain hundreds of thousands of files, Campbell enforcement look at these documents, even though this windfall would be equivalent to identify the location of a locked storage facility and offices did not know existed, which is what would happen in your house. What would happen if they searched the safe and you had a key to a safe deposit box Okay, well, what they would do is they would go back to a judge or they would ask for a warrant. And they would articulate what they think they would find in the safe deposit box. If they just said we want to see it, that would be good enough. But they would say, based on what we found, and based on the notes based on blah, blah, blah, we believe in the safe deposit box, we will find this. So, so, so but this is this is an extremely exciting area of developing law, because we just don’t know the answers to these questions.

Andy 47:38
Can you go over the term that they use throughout this thing? foregone conclusion? I mean, I know what the term means that you sort of already know. But how does this apply in a legal sense?

Unknown Speaker 47:49
Well, the there are exceptions given for when law enforcement breaks the rules. I mean, the courts have granted if it’s something that they would have discovered any way through normal channels. investigative techniques, it’s a foregone conclusion. So therefore, you don’t get suppression on what they would have discovered. But some of the stuff they may have never discovered if they force her to unlock her phone. And that’s what the court pointed out that there was no foregone conclusion here that they would have that they didn’t know anything. They didn’t have the information there would have been a foregone conclusion they didn’t know what was on the phone. That’s why they wanted to go surfing.

Andy 48:26
And, and to get the search warrant, you have to present to the judge that you believe that you will find these things. So you have to tell them that we are looking for X, Y and Z. We believe that that we will find them there. Then they get the search warrant and they go execute they do or don’t find and move from there. They don’t just go and do like to take a look around and see what we do find.

Unknown Speaker 48:46
Well, in the course of searching, they will see stuff that’s in plain view of theirs to play view rule like I say they will if if they came looking for financial documents, because you were an embezzler, and your house was just filled Drug Paraphernalia, that was illegal in plain view, they would go back and ask for the judge. I mean, they would secure it. So you couldn’t destroy it. They would not let you destroy the evidence. So they would they would go back and tell the court that they believed they would find drug paraphernalia and illegal drugs based on what they observed in plain view. And they would they would, they would, they would get bored. And in some cases, they wouldn’t even bother to get a warrant, they would say with the plain view exception controls, it was in plain view. But if they went rummaging through drawers, and they went looking for it, and it fell out of a drawer, the safest thing to do, which I’ve always believed doing things, the safest way, the safest thing for the cop to do is to secure the location and go get a warrant. That’s the safest thing to do.

Unknown Speaker 49:45
Fair enough. Fair enough.

Andy 49:47
Should we move on? We’re ready for that.

Unknown Speaker 49:49
Well, I think this is just totally exciting. I wouldn’t I wouldn’t have expected this out of Indiana. But but the Indiana supreme No, this is not the Supreme Court. What is this before it may Speak this Yes, it is supreme court of Indiana, the Supreme Court of Indiana. So this is the law though of the state that Who’s your state? This is they they will not be able they will not be able to force you to unlock your phone.

Andy 50:13
Tell me which district that is and who also that would impact?

Unknown Speaker 50:16
Well, this is a state decision. So it only affects but it only affects the state of Indiana. But it’s it’s powerful, persuasive arguments for other states. Like if I had this issue arise, I would go cut and paste as much as I could from this analysis into any argument here because I’d say this is just very fine. Fine analysis here. Will they appeal? There’s really no word appeal to

Andy 50:41
they couldn’t move it. They couldn’t move it to one of the districts.

Unknown Speaker 50:46
Well, this is this is a state question here.

Andy 50:47
Okay, so this is just this is the end of that question. They’ve just as

Unknown Speaker 50:52
well if they could, if they could invoke some constitutional if they could vote up, yes, constitutional, but for This is this is the end of the road here this go and this court cited US Supreme Court two cases of the US Supreme Court that helped them come to their to their decision so I don’t see this going any further This is if you’re in hooser land you’re protected then they’re not going to be able to force them to be able to force you to open your phone with a password and you you’re gonna have to articulate with precision what it is they’re going to find and what they’re looking for but just telling you to unlock your phone Not gonna happen. So if you if you if you’re if you’re doing naughty things, you might want to go to Indiana.

Unknown Speaker 51:33
Oh, very well. Perfect.

Andy 51:36
Let’s move over to la.com reimagine the role of police a gradual process of strategically reallocating resources, funding and responsibility away from police towards community based models of safety, support and prevention will go a long way towards bettering our society. We don’t have to spend a lot of time here, Larry, I but I reading through this article. I I I personally, don’t find flaws in the idea of if you have this kind of issue, direct that kind of resource towards it. And if you have that kind of issue this one over there, then you direct that kind. You don’t always have to have police with their badges and their guns and their tasers and the radio blaring and the lights like, you don’t always have to send those people to solve all problems. And this just, you know, not not even much of a framework of anything, but just starts talking about the concept of different organizations that could possibly handle situations differently. And I liked.

Unknown Speaker 52:33
I like it too. But I would just say one word, a couple of words of caution. When we talk about this in the abstract, then there’s the reality of the practice. Now, when when you’re dealing with people who have all these various issues, they can be very volatile. And, and and I don’t wish this to be an outcome but it’s just inevitable there will be an outcome where a person was being dealt with by a mental health professional. That will escalate, despite the fact are no police there, and then someone will get hurt. And then we’re going to be stable while we’re at the cops there. So just be aware that when we when we have the the beauty of looking back to the rearview mirror, let’s don’t be critical critical of the police. If we don’t want the police there and something happens.

Andy 53:24
We always want them there with their guns and escalating and all that which we will have a article coming up here that will make that rather and I’m just being you know, tongue in cheek on that.

Unknown Speaker 53:35
So well, we don’t want them they’re escalating. But we also if something happens when a situation escalates, despite every effort of the professionals to calm it, and 14 people get taken out. Then we need to cut the police just a little bit of slack if we’ve invited them out. Right.

Andy 53:52
Yeah, I know. I was somebody forwarded me like a book from Facebook that was in there. The larger comment of things of was, hey, if you don’t like the police, that’s fine, but they make me feel safe. And I was like, the key word there is make me feel safe where it’s like, I don’t I don’t I don’t having them run around the way that they are. I don’t necessarily. I don’t think everyone feels safe. I don’t think they are necessarily safer. Just an interesting way to phrase it.

Unknown Speaker 54:22
Well, I agree. But and when I said take 14 people out at that stop, I don’t mean that literally. But if you’re if you’re if you’re if you’re dealing with someone who has a mental health issue, perhaps without the police presence, there wouldn’t have been a full body search of the of the individual. And then if the if the person escalates, and they they pull out a blade, and they and they walk to people, and there’s no police presence, are we going to be patient and understanding that this happened because we were trying to handle it in a non confrontational way, and we didn’t have the police there. Hope that we don’t have that happen, but when we do, we need to remove realized that it happened because the police weren’t there. Because we invited the police out.

Andy 55:05
If you if you remember back to I want to say it was this episode we had the the individual, Nick Durbin, I believe is the name. And we were talking about a person on the registry with autism. And the person’s sort of like just hanging out outside, and they have a person guarding them. And I mean as a guardian, and things kind of go south and the police show up and a bullet ricochets off the ground and kills the person. I may have those details slightly sketchy, but the police show up and escalate things so it could end up just being sort of like a wash of while these people didn’t die, but these people did die. Not that that’s good. Just like it could just end up to be moved numbers from one column to another one.

Unknown Speaker 55:48
Or it may be we have to adopt a hybrid approach where that seems a secured like we do a fire and rescue there. There’s there’s places where Fire and Rescue won’t go until the police pronounced the secure It may be that we, we have to, we have to make sure that they’re not weapons in play, and then we’ll bring the professionals in to handle and I’m not by any means professing to be an expert in an innovation, innovation for the police. I’m merely acknowledging that what we’re doing now isn’t working to its optimum for society, but I don’t have all the answers. I know that we’re killing too many people. And I know that police escalate to my situations. I know that suicide people do not need guns drawn on them. That’s not very helpful towards talking them down from the ledge. But I don’t know what all the answers are.

Andy 56:36
So lately, and from courthouse news, I love 11th circuit blocks order allowing felon voting at Florida law. This has gotten confusing, complicated, keeps going back and forth, back and forth. The citizens voted to repeal the fourth amendment that allowed felons to vote than the Republican legislature put in, blah, blah, blah, blocking felons from voting because of fines fees. And other things, then some judge I think said it was okay. And now another judge says no. Kinda I think that’s the order.

Unknown Speaker 57:07
Kind of Yeah, the the citizens pass the pass the amendment for and then the, the legislature decided to the citizens of what they meant, although it wasn’t specified that all obligations related, all obligations meant fees and costs. So the legislature passed Senate Bill 7066, which required that they, before they could be restored, they had to pay all those monies, which in many cases had escalated exponentially because of the years that had passed. So so the republican dominated state of Florida decided that that despite the fact us overwhelmingly passed, we want you to have paid everything because the wording has I mean, I have to agree with them that the wording What did say all and I guess it depends on what the meaning of all is. And and these Addition of all or is is or

Andy 58:04
so this is Bill Clinton about some definitions.

Unknown Speaker 58:07
So then then the the batteries taken to court in federal court, a US District Judge Robert Hinkle, a liberal appointee rule that was unconstitutional that that that that legislation that was passed by the state of Florida passed the governor sign was unconstitutional. There was an appeal to the 11th circuit, which Levin circuit is Florida, Georgia and Alabama, small circuit of only three states. And the three judge panel said, the trial judge got it right. And then what we hear you we you hear us talk about on bank review, which is the review of the full court, which is seldom granted. The scientists and and the republicans in Florida weren’t happy with the three judge panel and I think I predicted that they would probably continue to fight this. I don’t remember what I said verbatim, but I think I predicted that They asked for unblock review and it has been granted. So that means that this is going to be decided by the full 11th circuit, not just a three judge panel. And in the meantime, in the meantime, the the the order was stayed, meaning that the felons are not gonna be allowed to vote until distance decided, and this probably will not be decided until after the election because the 11th circuit is notoriously slow and controversial stuff.

Andy 59:30
Well, that sucks. I and you are fairly convinced that it would probably just be a split 50 ish or so percent without one way versus the other way. So in the end, it probably doesn’t necessarily make much difference in the end of having these people vote.

Unknown Speaker 59:46
Oh, no, no, no, I don’t believe that. I believe that the republicans would benefit handsomely. If they’re allowed, do you think Oh, absolutely. Oh, no. I think the republicans would win this handset. I think they’re too dumb to realize that But I believe I believe that if you listen when you’re in prison, listen at the politicking that you heard about. conservatism runs rampant behind the prison walls. I believe that outside the minority communities, that the republicans would get an astronomical amount of former convict votes. So I think that they’re shooting themselves in the foot. I really do. I don’t think it’d be a 5050 split. I think that the minority vote would largely go to the Democrat Party, but I think the republicans would win would have the death benefit of having having these people vote.

Andy 1:00:36
prison population, at least in the south is not quite 5050. But close.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:42
Well, and I’m granting us that within a minority community that that that that the democrat party would, but we’re we’re not talking about just a minority do shopping Florida has their entire census of prisoners online, find out what the racial makeup is.

Andy 1:00:57
We’ll do that

Unknown Speaker 1:00:59
in chat I’m not I’m not doing internet research,

Unknown Speaker 1:01:01
whatever. So but I think the republicans are being short sighted, but they believe that they’re doing the right thing. They believe. I mean, I think that they’re being short sighted dumb was too strong of a word, but I think they’re being short sighted. But they believe that that the law, the memo was clear that all obligations includes that and they’re fighting for what they believe in. Okay. Five what you believe in it. I mean, there’s nothing really wrong with that. They’re they’re fighting for their position that

Andy 1:01:31
there is a they say they say it and it says Florida does not have a statewide database for those who owe restitution and fines and the state’s Byzantine patchwork of record keeping prevented many felons from learning about outstanding financial obligations before registering to vote. Well, if there’s no sort of easiest way to figure out what you owe, how do you figure out what you owe?

Unknown Speaker 1:01:51
Well, that was part of what the district judge pointed out. They’ve said that this was an impossible thing, but then you’ve got to go back and figure out what to do about it because I mean all. So what’s the meaning of the word all is?

Unknown Speaker 1:02:08
I got you.

Andy 1:02:10
We have a handful of articles relating to Corona and don’t really want to spend a lot of time on it, because I’m sure we all have Corona fatigue, it’s not possible for us to just let it go. And the first one that we have is from the intercept. And the title is prison officials in Kansas ignored the pandemic, then people started dying. There’s a video that goes along with it. It’s about 10 ish minutes long. And I think it’s a stellar thing to look at. Because what ultimately happened is a prison guard quit and and he’s leaking all the tragedies that are going on in the inadequacies of the handling of it. And I totally you know, Larry put it in there and I didn’t want to let it slide by because I just thought it was an incredibly well done 10 minute video that I think people need to see.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:54
Did you listen to him as well? Because I didn’t I didn’t finish it. I did you listen to it. So you can you can tell me what I’ve missed.

Andy 1:03:01
Well, I don’t know where you stopped the, the guard. They’re there. They’re just almost like saying, Hey, you know, nothing to see here, keep moving. And you know, at first note is Do you not have Corona in your town because nobody has it or because no one’s being tested. And it looks like that’s how things went. Then eventually, like a couple people test positive, then more people test positive, they even show as the clip goes along of how many people at different time intervals, you know, it goes for like one and then there’s two and then there’s five and then there’s 10. And then next thing you know, over like the span of 30 days, 900 people have it. So is that just from testing that they had a clear picture of it, but still, people are in bad shape man, and being stuck in these places. It’s just horrible. Did you see the segment in there about the person that had I think like 80 days left?

Unknown Speaker 1:03:53
Yep, sure did.

Andy 1:03:55
So we to reference back to your your Riot thing in New Mexico. The you know what you would have been great to get released on the 28th. But on the 29th, you would have in bad shape. So here’s a guy that’s got something of three months left in prison, and all of a sudden now and he’s actually contracted it. And no one’s trying to let anybody go home early, which I think is also pretty shitty in the grand scheme of things that you could take people that are three months, six months a year out, you could start letting them go with people with more medical problems like it seems that there would be ways to handle this if we were willing to and we’re just not willing to we’re not we’re not willing to. And I think that makes us kind of crappy. There’s another article from the appeal Coronavirus in jails and prisons. And this one is about a nationwide report of all 50 states. The best state I think got a D minus.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:50
And let me guess the best the best state was Alabama or Mississippi, right?

Andy 1:04:54
Um, which one were the best ones? So Massachusetts Michigan, Tennessee, West Virginia and Vermont were the best ones they they had tested everyone which one Wyoming Wyoming scored the second lowest and Tennessee score the highest which I’m kind of surprised at Tennessee score the highest.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:15
So

Andy 1:05:18
so so there’s that just again as a reference point to somebody This was done by the ACLU. So, you know, hate on those people if you want to that for trying to go out and figure out where people’s civil liberties are being violated. left leaning crackpots? Right, Larry,

Unknown Speaker 1:05:31
that’s what they are a bunch of liberal do gooders.

Andy 1:05:34
All right. And I think this is This is the Georgia case that you you put in there as well. So this is from law calm again, an appeals court says state can prosecute charges dropped as part of federal plea deal. Larry, this always feels like flip flop to me were like, Hey, we’re not going to prosecute you. So you’re free to go Oh, wait, another group says we are going to prosecute you so you’re not free to go. So always confuses me.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:00
That’s not exactly what happened. The feds did prosecute him. And he made a plea agreement which which the drug charges were dropped. They decided that as part of their doucement to play that they would drop. And the state of Georgia decided that they were going to file the charges. And the Georgia Court of Appeals has got this actually precisely correct. In my opinion, the it’s a very textural decision, but the Georgia statute, keep in mind that the feds and the state are two separate sovereigns and there’s no double jeopardy the feds can prosecute you for the exact same facts that a state can prosecute you for. You can you can commit a crime and if it’s a federal crime, the feds can prosecute you for transporting that dope across the state lines to Alabama. And the state of Alabama can prosecute you for bringing that dope into Alabama, the same dope Defense prosecutors you for so so what what Georgia did is Georgia has a provision and their statutes were that if you are acquitted of the crime, then the feds can’t pick it up. But that isn’t what happened. He was not acquitted the statute the statute reads, or course if you’re convicted also that but but but Georgia’s official code of Georgia 16 dash one dash eight. A prosecution is barred if the accused was formally prosecuted for the same crime based upon the same material facts if such former prosecution resulted in either a conviction or an acquittal. But it didn’t do either. His his he did get convicted nor did he get acquitted. The charges were dismissed.

Andy 1:07:52
So therefore best is not being found guilty or not guilty that we just said, Hey, we’re not playing Paul anymore.

Unknown Speaker 1:07:58
We’re not moving this person. Take your charge forward, which charges are always generally dismissed almost always in a plea bargain. Why would you play everything in the indictment? So so the fans dismissed, a charged at the state of Georgia decided that they that they were going to move forward with. So the Georgia Court of Appeals said, well, gee, we had issued a very an artfully crafted decision some years back. And we’re clarifying that, that that if if it is for a dismissal, because it’s a plea bargain, that’s not an acquittal, and you can’t argue with it by dismissal is not an acquittal. We’ll get back to what the meaning of the word is, or what is the meaning of the word all. Georgia law says it has to be a conviction or an acquittal. It wasn’t either. Okay. And you Texas out there that listen to the podcast. You should be applauding every time we get a textual decision because this is exactly what you’re facing. As far as for a court to look at the text, enter, interpret the text. And the text is very clear. It doesn’t give them any latitude for them to invent Well, they must have meant if also if it was dismissed. That is what it says they’re smart enough to put the result of either conviction order acquittal are the charges were subject to dismissal. They didn’t say that.

Andy 1:09:24
So I’m thinking back to maybe it was the early 90s. And there was the DC sniper was like, the name john Lee Malveaux, is that the right? Yes. Okay. And so they committed the crimes in the entity of Maryland and also in the entity that also happened like in my, almost in my neighborhood that happened in the county that I grew up, like right up the street, but that’s another story. But they committed those crimes in probably the DC and then also in Maryland, and also in Virginia, and they were like prosecuting them in those specific districts. And I’m just saying that to give another point of reference to what you’re But entities state but but

Unknown Speaker 1:10:02
but those were still state courts. They weren’t they were I don’t believe there were any federal charges. In my recollection, we’re talking about a case that was in federal court, Middle District of Georgia, and we’re talking about a Georgia picked up. Now, when you have crimes that state crimes that are there’s no federal jurisdiction, then, and they go across jurisdictional lines, the jurisdictions have to work on a plan of prosecution who’s going to have first bite, who’s got the strongest case, what you what you want to do, if you put your ego aside, what you want to do in a case like that, is you want to give the first bite, it’s a state that has the strongest case, that that has a slam dunk, because then you have the conviction and you have the person locked away. And then you can keep stacking time on there. Or you can decide that the first day gave them enough time that you’re just willing to do the play and give them concurrent time with what they’re serving and the other state and then you don’t have to pay any money to incarcerate them. You don’t have paid money to try them. But but the prosecution when there’s multiple states involved, if you take the Eagles out Which I don’t always do. They look at blood, which which state can secure a conviction? Which state has the strongest case? Where can we win and make sure this person is locked away for a long period of time?

Andy 1:11:13
Are there any highlights in the Georgia one that you made? I’m thinking

Unknown Speaker 1:11:19
I didn’t really. I don’t think I made any did let’s see state vs. Adams. don’t see any.

Andy 1:11:25
Yeah, it was anything that you wanted to highlight and point out.

Unknown Speaker 1:11:29
Yeah, I think I pointed out it succinctly that it’s it’s really a textual decision, and I’m not always a textualist but I can’t follow their logic that they followed the law.

Andy 1:11:43
Very good. Um, let’s see. What about Mississippi bill would give thousands chance at parole. This is Mississippi doing something that is like pro criminal justice reform. How can that be?

Unknown Speaker 1:11:56
Because it’s republicans doing it and they won’t get vilified. That’s how Anything else?

Andy 1:12:02
All right, then we should just move on to the next article. Isn’t this a case for when, you know, in the last couple of weeks, we got slammed for being so lefty, like we’re falling off the lefty bridge and lib tardes? What can I come up with the democrat party like so here you’re giving credit where credit’s due for a baby doing the right thing?

Unknown Speaker 1:12:21
I didn’t I didn’t do a lot of analysis of it, but it looks like it will result in a significant drop in people that are incarcerated and the amount of times they’ll be incarcerated. And I think that’s a good thing. And I think that that is I say over and over again. This is one area where you don’t have to worry about the Democrat Party. vilifying you they will feel for you for other things you do as a conservative, but they will not vilify you for criminal justice reform. So you have carte blanche if you if you’re a republican to do as bold as you want to take on reform and you don’t have that carte blanche or other things. Okay. But on criminal justice reform, if you’re going to make things better, make sure I clarify reform if you’re going to lessen the amount of time that people serve, because reform can also be making it more difficult to oppose the more time but if you want to make the criminal justice reforms that result in fewer people to prison, and shorter sentences to Democrat Party will not vilify you for that. So you have all the freedom you need

Andy 1:13:29
in reading it, so if you’re on the low end of the spectrum, that you could, you could be eligible for Perl after 25%. And on that the scale then after 50%. And then I think after on the high end, you can be eligible at 75%, I think is worth stacked up at. But that means you could get you know, maybe something like four years for a minor kind of drug charge and you’d be eligible for parole after a year, which sounds sounds good, but I think the key word there is eligible.

Unknown Speaker 1:13:58
Well, that would be the key If it’s if it’s if it’s a discretionary act, because depending on who exercises the discretion, if that decision maker is that within the purview of an elected official that has to be accountable for any bad decisions, of course, they’re going to exclude anybody with a sex offense in certain certain communities sensitive offense offenses, they’re gonna exclude those that were just not even considered those. That’s just a reality of it. It’s not a rule that I make but I’m telling you that that that’s what the political reality is.

Andy 1:14:32
And it says in the end of one of the paragraphs is habitual offenders pf RS and inmates sentence for capital murder would not be eligible for parole. So what a flat

Unknown Speaker 1:14:43
What a surprise.

Andy 1:14:45
I know, right? I know. I know. I know. I know. Um, I guess we can move over to the New York Times. What do you call that one there?

Unknown Speaker 1:14:53
The New York Times I think I’ve heard rush call it the New York slimes

Andy 1:14:56
got it got it got the black officer who detained George Floyd had pledged to fix the police. This is a kind of an interesting little profile of Alex King is how it’s pronounced. It looks like it’s young, but it’s a pronounced king. He had been on his third shift. And he’s kind of been like, denounced from his community. He tried to join the force of trying to get in there to change it from the inside. And there he is standing there, he had the opportunity to perhaps pull back the officer that had his knee in church fluids, but back, I do have to say I cut the guy, some level of slack that it was a third shift, I would imagine that you’re probably still like trying to figure out what the ropes are. forget forget learning the ropes, but like you don’t even know where the ropes are. And I got to cut the guy the teeniest little bit of slack in that regard. However, when someone is saying, I can’t breathe, and it’s eight minutes like, humanity should probably kick in and act anyway. So here’s that article.

Unknown Speaker 1:15:56
That was what I took from the thing. I didn’t read it thing but you know you got a rookie officer or a veteran with How many years did he have with a force it’s gonna be very difficult

Andy 1:16:07
yeah you would you would be scared to death to make a move that then you end up getting your ass beat or you know getting reprimanded fired whatever but in the end he could have saved a life I you know, that’s a that’s a whole conflict of problems to try and figure out at the time see only level of slack that’ll give the guy in that regard. So another one from the New York Times This one is a nice little video also that I have already played. So I don’t remember what is this one? I’m trying to remember. I’m trying to remember I’m trying to remember. What is this when Larry helped me

Unknown Speaker 1:16:38
tear gas?

Andy 1:16:40
Oh, this is the Philadelphia tear gas with this one’s awesome. Protesters start marching down the highway and the police blocked they they boxed him in they came in from the front they came in from the back would appear to be kind of peaceful. I will say I will cut the police of slack that they were blocking the interstate at this time to think Started should tear gassed it. Did you watch the whole video?

Unknown Speaker 1:17:02
Oh yeah, it was fun.

Andy 1:17:04
Oh my god. Yeah funny in in certain terms they they will like go up to you and be interest from you pull down your mask and squirt tear gas directly in your face. There was one other guy who ended up with like a tear gas canister something that shot him and hit him in the chicken. He’s got like a, like a stamp like an embroidery stamp like right on his cheek. And towards the end of it were like the protesters. They had been boxed in and they only had one way to go out. They go up this hill and there’s this like eight foot fence. They’ve got a scale so then they start going back down right down the hill back into where the cops are with the tear gas and all that stuff. It’s

Unknown Speaker 1:17:41
what do you think do you have to admit it if you don’t pull the mask off the tear gas, it’s not going to be nearly as effective.

Andy 1:17:47
It would not be nearly as effective. It did seem a little odd that there were guidelines that they should be using tear gas against peaceful protesters. There was a clip of the police captain, whatever you Want to call her? And she was like, Well, once they got onto the highway well now they were violent protesters. That’s your definition of violent protester?

Unknown Speaker 1:18:08
Yep. So well, you know, Andy, you people always second guess. We’re in a pressure cooker situation, trying to keep all the citizenry safe and all you people do is sit back in your ivory towers. You’ve never been out in the trenches. And all you do is criticize and second guess I mean, these men and women are working, give sacrificing putting their life on the line every day. And all we get is this continuous criticism. What is it? What is it with you people?

Andy 1:18:42
I struggle with the posture, I suppose that they you know, they’re they’re in all the black, they’re in the tactical gear. They’re in gas masks, they’re like you can’t see the people these are these are the people that are charged with our safety and our security and not They’re looking, frankly, like a terrorist organization to me. And they have all the weaponry, and they have the tactical control and radios and equipment. And these are just people that are walking down the street. Yes, some of them were doing some vandalism. So you could figure out who those are. And I don’t know, I just I, this seems to be extreme excessive over the top. Send me hate mail for being a lib tard blah, blah, blah. I think this is excessive and well, and we should hold them accountable to it. Well, wait,

Unknown Speaker 1:19:29
thank goodness people like you are not making the rules.

Andy 1:19:36
Yes, because if I were making the rules, there would be worse way worse, which is possibly true. I don’t think I’m qualified for this stuff. But I think this is really just crappy over the top stuff.

Unknown Speaker 1:19:45
So Well, thankfully, we’ve got more sane rational decision makers out there trying to keep us safe we’d be at archy with your kind.

Andy 1:19:54
Yes. And then over the Daily News, what can we learn from Rashad Brooks reform of parole and probation is just as important as police. This is the the GA one and Wendy’s situation that happened a month ago when you were here.

Unknown Speaker 1:20:08
Yeah, I put that in there because people lose sight of probation parole how that, that that was supposed to be a system to aid the offender to to educate and mentor the offender rather than than the way it has evolved to being something I got you and how can we put so many hopes up that you that you’ll fail? probation and parole is supposed to be rehabilitative, particularly probation, but even parole that directly You’ve done enough time that you deserve a chance to be reintegrated into the community, as a parole officer probation officer supposed to be pulling for you?

Andy 1:20:44
Right, not not setting up trip traps for you. While you’re on your way? I heard a little segment on on his record. And how when when you read it as what the charges were what he was convicted versus what the scenario was. It paints an entirely different picture. You know, if I see you and I’m driving down the street layer, and I come and I screech up, and I pull up, like, get in a car, and you like, no. And now I’d like reach out and grab your hand. Now I have attempted kidnapping. And it’s like, so he was in some sort of argument with his wife, girlfriend, I forget which one it is. And he, like, grabbed her arm and moved her which is now like lawful detaining. What’s the you know, like? imprisonment, I forgot what the right word is. So you know, he has I’m not saying he’s clean, but he’s also not like a terrorist either. And this all gets painted in the media at times as him being this terrible hardened felon. And maybe he deserved what he got kind of thing, but it does. I don’t think that the scenario that he was actually in paints that, that really that extreme of a picture.

Unknown Speaker 1:21:52
Well, the the media tends to do that with anybody who has any type of record and they have police instigation, helping them When the cops provide the rap sheet, they provide a commentary with it also. And I suppose people since most people don’t understand the title statutes, statutes, inevitably have evil sounding sound to the, you know, criminal sexual penetration.

Unknown Speaker 1:22:19
That sounds sounds pretty heinous, doesn’t it?

Unknown Speaker 1:22:22
It may be only criminal it may be it may be only criminal because you because the person was not of age to give the consent that they gave. So you commit a

Unknown Speaker 1:22:33
criminal sexual penetration.

Unknown Speaker 1:22:36
Rob straw Rob Rob robbery.

Unknown Speaker 1:22:40
You go going on with the cops. So the cops will provide their commentary in these reporters are reporting on 1000 things in the course of a year. Do you expect they actually will do all the research to figure out what the statute means what the elements are, and how to be objective, when that’s not what the viewers are? listeners or readers are wanting,

Andy 1:23:02
and at the same time that you’re saying that, that they are competing against the other three or four broadcasters to have the most up to date, compassionate, you know, not compassion, compelling, interesting, bleeding, leading all that stuff. So they don’t necessarily even have the time to or that nor are they incentivized to be superduper fact checkers, they’re just in their favor. Even if they make a mistake, they’re not going to go back and retract it and correct it. It’s very,

Unknown Speaker 1:23:27
very infrequently, but they’re in the business of making money, we lose sight of that, and we we bemoan this, and in our capitalist system, they are not in the business of doing anything other than making a profit. Right, except for the PBS, which we described. I think we the total support for PBS in this country is like less than $1 per person, or per per American. per year. My understanding is it’s something of one or 2% and it happens either before or after election cycle so that it’s not they’re not politically motivated. All my understanding but but but we’re harsh on the media but they do what they do in a capitalist system they’re trying to drive ratings, they’re trying to sell magazines they’re trying to sell papers and and fast and big being first all those things are important if you don’t like that, then perhaps we ought to look at some of the things that would give us an alternative to that and those things will cost money and and that that when people when you start talking about Well, I mean, when you say what do you want to restrict what they can want? No, we can’t do that that violates the First Amendment clearly would. Well, do you want to put more money in public? No, we can’t do that damn liberal do good stuff. We can’t do that. Well, do you want to bring the Fairness Doctrine equal a we can’t do that. Do you want to decentralize ownership? Do you want to make the buy maybe we have these big media conglomerates Do you want to do you want to break them up so that we have more local owners? Now we can do? There’s nothing no matter what option you put on the table. You can’t have a rational discussion about it. So the media is going to be what the media is. Unfortunately they vilify everybody and they make this guy sound like he was the most awful criminal that ever was because that’s the cops playbook. When someone dies, hands with the cops. This is a nationwide thing they do. They take every little incident their life and they make it sound like that person was a horrible human being that justifies what they did.

Andy 1:25:27
I understand moving over to an article from NPR, how authorities can use the internet to identify protesters, what is your take on things like this, Larry, before we get into the details?

Unknown Speaker 1:25:42
Well, I struggle with it because there’s no expectation of privacy when you’re out in public. On the other hand, there is an expectation that our government doesn’t track us and catalog and and Chronicle our movements. So I have I have a lot of struggling with this.

Andy 1:26:02
It’s really easy for the police for the government in general to gain access to huge amounts of processing power to gain cell phone data to gain Google records and paint a very accurate, very detailed, not necessarily accurate, detailed picture of your whereabouts and your associates. You probably pretty easily remember the metadata conversation that was happening probably around 2010 or so like it was really big in the news about not knowing what your conversation was about, but by knowing who you called, and how long you called them. You can probably discern a lot about an individual based just on that level of detail, a couple that in with other things and some more artificial intelligence analysis and you end up with the government having a very close watch on what you’re up to.

Unknown Speaker 1:26:52
That’s the scary part about it. Because like I say, there’s no expectation of privacy, but there’s also expected there’s thanks regulations the government’s going to catalogue and Chronicle your movements.

Andy 1:27:04
Do you know about the huge data warehouse facility in Utah I this was an article I read so long ago, it’s a 10 year old article that I read about the state of storage facility in Utah

Unknown Speaker 1:27:15
doesn’t ring any

Andy 1:27:16
Bell with it with it. I’m going to assume that the information is right. I know that I read the article in Wired Magazine. And it is a facility that will capture for, for lack of a better term, all internet traffic would get stored. That means every Skype phone call you’ve made every internet search you’ve done all of that data is stored at some warehouse facility in Utah, that when they do get the processing power to go scrape it, they will employ that maybe they have it by now that you have no sense of privacy and that they want to go do a dragnet and figure out what you’ve been up to for the last 610 you know, number of years, they can just go pull the archive and figure out what you’ve been up to

Unknown Speaker 1:27:58
tragic tragic it’s not to work. But yeah, it is it is discombobulating that they can they can do that. But that’s the world we live in with technology and you tech gurus are all for this.

Andy 1:28:10
Some of us but at the same time, there are other tools that you can employ to mask a lot of that you use some encryption app with your with your boss, I use encryption apps, most people are like, I don’t care about that. No one’s reading my stuff. I’m just sending puppy pictures across the internet like, Yeah, but there’s probably stuff that you don’t want everyone to know about or that they don’t have any right to know about either. Even though you’re in the public they shouldn’t be cataloging and tracking and watching all the all the whereabouts that you go to. So Oh, no, just it’s just kind of an interesting thing that you threw her in here this week. I think he always like to poke fun at me for internet like technology stuff.

Unknown Speaker 1:28:44
Well, because I do that because I like to have the discussion about the downsides and how we how we structure our, our society where that that there’s no incentive for these voluntary controls. So we’re going to have to use The powers of the big old bad government to place limitations on how this technology is used. And that means that we have to have an engaging debate. We can’t just let the companies decide that they own everything that they capture from people and they can’t be allowed to do with it what they please.

Andy 1:29:15
So you probably I think we covered it, at least, you know, just in passing that Amazon said that they would stop selling their facial recognition technology to law enforcement, they would do a moratorium for a year and are willing to step up and help government right policy, whatever, pre draft the laws, and that probably is so that they can figure out how to secure their position and have a profitable endeavor and possibly block different players from getting into it. No. And, and but that reminded me directly of things that you have brought forth that hey, I will help you guys write it and you, you described something where you wrote it that basically no one would ever be charged with this kind of Prime. And I guess to cover that in a different way, you know, these different removal from the registry processes, no one would ever qualify because they’re like so narrowly tailored that you’d have to patch your head and full moon on this time when the whole thing occurred, blah, blah, blah, never get off the registry.

Unknown Speaker 1:30:14
Well, I do it to try to make it constitutional, because if they’re determined to have a law, and in many instances, they are determined to have a law. I trust me to write it better than I trust law enforcement. And once I accepted that a law is inevitable. And I would accept it in example, in Michigan, they’re not going to just let those people disappear. So I would have been busily writing a registry that I believe would be constitutional. I know it goes against everything we talked about, but would you rather they write it or me writing

Unknown Speaker 1:30:50
them for surely.

Unknown Speaker 1:30:52
So, so look at it if I know something that evitable I would prefer that that I drafted because I’ve got to make sure I guard the Constitution, and I’m going to make a registry. It’s constitutional. My registry would be so benign, that most people would like it. But I say, look, this is constitutional. They can gripe all they want to, but you can do this. But you can’t go beyond this because you’re going to find yourself right back in a constitutional confrontation, because you can’t do all the things you’d like to do. You can’t punish people, but you can. You can have people on lists, we have hundreds of lists that people are on, and being on a list doesn’t make that list unconstitutional.

Andy 1:31:31
It doesn’t even make it that bad to be on the list depends on where that list is then presented.

Unknown Speaker 1:31:36
Well, I don’t worry too much about the list. I worry about what the list discloses and what you’re required to do while you’re a member of the list. You’re on the list for the Selective Service when you’re from 18 to 26. They don’t do anything with the list. They don’t in any way humiliate you. They don’t. They don’t do anything that impairs your ability to live love your life. A registry of sexual sexual offenders would be you Could do such a list. You don’t require them to report it. You don’t require them to have any prohibitions about what what, where they can live, where they can work, what they could do, who they can engage with. And you simply say congratulations, you’re on a list. Like you tell young men between 18 and 26. Congratulations, you’re on a list. If you don’t put your name on this list, you’re subject to forfeiture of a whole plethora of government benefits in addition to a five year period of incarceration. I doubt anybody’s ever been in been incarcerated for five years but it is on the books it could be imposed

Andy 1:32:32
with you so then we move over to courthouse news judge grants bond For ex Atlantic cop charged Rashard Brooks killing Come on, Larry, you can’t be in favor of taking this guy who like gunned this dude down? Like almost in cold blood he shot him in the back. You can’t be in favor of this

Unknown Speaker 1:32:52
action I am. Oh, because that we have this presumption of innocence. A person is entitled to that presumption that it follows them to the conclusion of the proceedings. It doesn’t that doesn’t revert to a presumption of guilt. Again, as I said dozens of times I only wish the police would say the same thing. When when someone’s arrested, this officer is entitled to be presumed innocent through the duration of this proceeding until he elects to plead guilty or until he’s convicted by a jury. And and while he’s while he’s proceeding to trial, he is entitled to be free. As long as the restraints are sufficient to secure his participation. I think the bond was $750,000 wasn’t it? It’s either 500 at the top I’ve heard it’s 500. Okay, well, that’s probably enough to encourage an average person to participate if you can raise 500

Andy 1:33:48
Yeah, I didn’t want to I didn’t want to split the difference between that 250 like I’m thinking 507 50 would be hard to come up with 500 rupee just slightly as hard.

Unknown Speaker 1:33:56
So yes, he’s entitled The pot and he can he can Put together but best defense that he can afford. And he may even qualify since he’s been fired, he may even qualify for indigent defense. Who knows. But But, but I don’t, I don’t, I don’t feel any differently about him than I do any other accused person. I’m just waiting for one weekend invite a police officer on this podcast that will say the same thing about someone other than a police officer, please, if you’re listening, come on. We’ll be nice to you. And we want you to save what I just said.

Andy 1:34:30
innocent until proven guilty, right. And this person’s entitled

Unknown Speaker 1:34:33
that presumption to follow them through the duration of the proceeding.

Andy 1:34:41
All right, then we’ll go over to Clarion ledger ready for him to come home family says Ms. prison reform bill should be retroactive. That would be Mississippi I assume. Yes. And advocates for reform in the Mississippi prison system sit down with the Clarion ledger to discuss their concerns after a wave of violence and deaths. Tonight. We did you send me Was there a video out there that we had about a riot breaking out in Mississippi is that

Unknown Speaker 1:35:08
there’s a video with this article, but I got confused with this article. I thought we had already covered it.

Andy 1:35:14
I don’t recall recover covering this. Okay. Well, I mean, I guess this goes with the Mississippi at the parole bill. Yeah, I have a block these together. There’s a same thing, just two different sources. Yeah, I think so. All right. Well, then I guess we could just move on to the five

Unknown Speaker 1:35:31
they wanted. They wanted to be retroactive. How dare them want something to be retroactive. Now, you could, you could you can make things less or punitive. The Constitution protects you against making it more punitive. But you can reduce sentences. Right, right. There’s no constitutional infringement there.

Andy 1:35:54
Okay, yeah, yeah, no, I understand. I understand. I’m sorry. So I think isn’t that everything?

Unknown Speaker 1:36:01
That’s everything we just have will here with his. We have?

Andy 1:36:06
We have we have a question. This was a comment that he left last week in reference to our M. 133. Says with regard to the expectation of privacy, there was a case in 2015, where a PFR was arrested for taking pictures of children playing in a public space, the judge ruled that the children were out in a public area where there was no expectation of privacy and therefore the registered citizen committed no crime by taking non obscene pictures. We You know, this is on the heels of the protests and the government tracking and all this stuff that you have no expectation of privacy. wanted to bring that to the fore.

Unknown Speaker 1:36:39
I’d like to see that ruling. And I agree with it. And I’ve said the same thing. Many times. These laws you can pass anything and they’re presumed constitutional, you can say a PFR is not allowed to take pictures anyway in a park. But I’ve maintained they’re allowed to take pictures anywhere that anybody’s allowed to take pictures if there’s no provision, a general population of PFR can take pictures like anyone else. But if you pass a law that says they can’t, well, they can’t until the court says they can. And this person decided that they wanted to challenge it. And apparently at least it’ll chalkboard level the there’s a decision that says that they take it, they could take pictures. Now the state will have an answer for this. They’ll say, Well, if you could take pictures at a park, we’ll just make it where you can’t be in a park. And then you won’t be taking pictures that will be the that would be their logical moves that they would make.

Andy 1:37:27
Then, on the heels of that, they could say you can’t have any sort of camera technology, which is hard, but you could you could find a camera you can find a phone that doesn’t have a camera on it.

Unknown Speaker 1:37:36
It’d be hard but you probably could. I think the last one was made actually about 10 years ago.

Andy 1:37:44
Any any closing comments before we shut it all down there?

Unknown Speaker 1:37:46
Was this about restored Georgia?

Andy 1:37:49
I think that’s leftover from Yeah, that’s

Unknown Speaker 1:37:51
okay. I said last week, yeah. Okay. All right. Well, now that we’re we’re we’re ready to close down shop and everybody Have a wonderful Independence Day. I know that only a few people were here that are hearing it now. So those of you that are hearing it all the early release, I hope you had a wonderful Independence Day and weekend and ready to get back to the grindstone next week.

Andy 1:38:17
Outstanding. It was a short week. So that was a that was a nice little treat. And thank you all very much. You can find show notes over at registry matters.co and all the other things you can find it with if you want to contact us. With that, Larry, thank you so much for joining me yet again. Mike. Thank you for being a guest for the while. And Take care everybody. Good night. Good night.


Transcript of RM133: Torsilieri v PA and Legoo v IL

Andy 0:00
registry matters as an independent production. The opinions and ideas here are that of the hosts and do not reflect the opinions of any other organization. If you have a problem with these thoughts fyp recording live from fyp Studios transmitting across the internet. This is Episode 133 of registry matters. Larry missed you last week I was sitting right here waiting for you to show up and nothing happened.

Larry 0:28
Well, I just couldn’t make it because I couldn’t meet your very high expectations that I come in by Discord.

Andy 0:35
I guess I do have my MMA culpas on. Last week. We just we just couldn’t put it all together and it wouldn’t have worked out so well. But no, I wasn’t sitting here waiting for him just totally picking on you.

Larry 0:47
Yeah, we’re considering

Andy 0:48
technology, traveling and so forth. We we just couldn’t put it together. But consider

Larry 0:53
doing a telephone interview. But we just rolled that out because we knew that that was a high quality expectation so that people will To sell

Andy 1:01
that’s what I would. That’s what I expect. I have heard this confirmed by some people there. I say it’s not just me.

Unknown Speaker 1:11
But did you ever get it off?

Unknown Speaker 1:13
We’re getting an echo now.

Andy 1:16
We are. Oh, that’s probably my fault. Did it go away?

Larry 1:24
Yes.

Andy 1:25
Okay, good. Um, well, very good. Um, did you did you enjoy your week off?

Unknown Speaker 1:32
Two weeks?

Andy 1:34
Two weeks, not too many records.

Larry 1:36
What a week we were off but I was off work for two weeks.

Andy 1:40
Oh, you got to tell me about any sort of extra equipment that you used you you drove a fair distance from the south to the less than south and you you had some extra equipment that you were wearing.

Larry 1:53
Are you talking about the shield?

Andy 1:55
Yes, I am talking about the shield.

Larry 1:58
So well. I have a plastic face shield in addition to the standard little mask that everyone wears, so if I hadn’t had double coverage on the airplane, I had six plane rides over the course of the trip.

Andy 2:15
And did anybody say that you were a nutjob for wearing all that?

Larry 2:19
I don’t think anyone said it. I’m sure some people’s minds

Andy 2:25
gonna be thank you for wearing it though.

Larry 2:27
No, no one thanked me but I did hear one guy arguing that he wasn’t going to wear one because he’s a American and he doesn’t have to know that was on the airplane and they were telling me he had to wear it required and he said I don’t have to do anything and and they relented and he was able to to bamboozle or badger his way on the plane.

Andy 2:48
So did you notice a difference between your neck of the woods in this neck of the woods on the people wearing masks and whatnot.

Larry 2:56
Notice a significant difference between the two Assume that that Americans were taking it seriously but when I was in the southeast, particularly Georgia and Florida didn’t didn’t notice that seriousness. I noticed

Andy 3:11
I don’t understand I don’t understand why like up in the northeast that like they have mandatory orders that if you’re in public, or you’ll be refused service by going into a grocery store or a restaurant without one on and down here, just just let it all hang out, man run around like nothing, nothing’s going on.

Larry 3:29
Well, I, I see that, that there was a barista at Starbucks that refuse to serve someone. And he’s got about $60,000 last count of donations on GoFundMe for, for doing for doing for taking that position. But I just assume that that it was nearly identical. But I would say if one out of every three people in Florida was wearing a mask in public, I’d be surprised and here in my home city, I would say it would be very surprised if about seven I’ve 90% of the people are wearing them when I’m in public I would be very surprised if it’s less than that. So I definitely noticed a huge difference and in the people that were covering their faces there.

Andy 4:10
Hey, everybody in chat, just chime in and tell me what you observe being out and about how many people you see wearing masks and whatnot. Well, let’s uh, let’s, let’s start driving this bus Larry. And first thing I have to deeply deeply apologize to one of our probably almost longest time listener and Patreon supporter, Jeff from Tennessee, or Kentucky, excuse me. He left a voicemail and I dropped the ball. Larry last last time we recorded two weeks ago. And it is still very relevant. It just happens to be slightly less just, it’s related to Well, I’ll let Jeff tell you. So here is a voicemail from Jeff.

Unknown Speaker 4:47
Hello, Andy and Larry. This is Jeff from Kentucky, also known as caffeine crazy on the old Twitter. So I have a question and I know Larry likes voicemails, and I thought this was a good question. So the Constitution says I’m allowed to assemble for the purposes of protesting and whatnot. But Kentucky State law says that I am not allowed to go to public parks that have playgrounds. So there was recently a protest at a public park, in a playground in my city regarding the George Floyd and from there, and obviously, I wasn’t allowed to go to it. So what does Larry think about that? What would have happened if I had just gone anyway, and said, I’m exercising my right to assemble. Anyway, you guys have a good Saturday? And fyp?

Andy 5:35
Thank you for that. I think that’s a great question, Larry.

Larry 5:38
I agree. And this is the first time I’ve heard it, but i i agree that’s a really good question. And unlike lawyers, who will filibuster and and pretend they know something, sometimes the answer is we do not know. And truly on that one, we do not know what would happen if you did that. We could we could assume that if someone breaks cognized you, and will when we get to a case that we’re going to be talking about lm, Illinois coming up here and later in the podcast, this will make more sense to you, we can assume that there’s a possibility of prosecution because there will be prosecutors that will say, I put my hand on that Bible. And I’m going to do my duty, and that you would be prosecuted. But what we won’t know the answer to is what would happen if you raised a constitutional challenge within that prosecution. And saying that that was trampling your your rights under the Constitution to assemble and petition government for redress of your agreements. And I had that very same conversation with Robin from North Carolina today on something else, because he was saying that nobody can petition government for redress of their grievances, because everywhere where legislators meet, and in from committees and whatnot, and even in the capital that is within 1000 feet of something and I said, Well, you know, that I would never allow that to stay on. I would challenge that because it’s your fundamental Right. But in the process of challenge it as we need to reflect back on, on history, people have taken stands have been arrested. Just because you have the right to do something doesn’t mean you will not be arrested and prosecuted. So I do not know if you’d be prosecuted, nor do I know if you would win. But what I do know is I think you would have an excellent claim of a constitutional violation. And I would hope that that we would be able to muster some resources and support for such a challenge. If you were to feel inspired to do that in Kentucky.

Andy 7:32
I can see I can see a delineation of if you’re just trying to take your kids to the park to play that being different than going to some sort of gathering that happens to be at a park to protest the George Floyd stuff.

Larry 7:47
What do you see as the delineation of that, I mean, there’s a little slight deviation but what

Andy 7:52
you what you have the right to assemble for the redress of your grievances like with the government, so that would be the delineation, but does that have to be like a full formalised protest? Or I mean, you know, if you’re hanging out there with your kid and you’re pushing them on the swing or something like that, that doesn’t, I mean, is that assembling

Larry 8:11
without for the same same purpose? But, again, you know, that’s an area of still developing case law. And what the question that Jeff raises, as far as I know, would be a matter of first impression. I’ve never heard of anybody attempting to, to raise that issue. So a matter of first impression, we don’t know how it would come out. But But there is a there is a difference between wanting to simply visit a park and wanting to assemble and raise your voice in opposition to something that government is doing or should be doing or not doing. So. There There is a slight difference. I was just wondering what you saw the difference? Yeah.

Andy 8:45
Well, riddle me this. If it were you and say you were like 100 and something years younger than your picture depicts this evening. Would you go do it? If it were, if it were an issue, I don’t want to say specifically for this But if it were an issue that you were super stoked about.

Larry 9:04
It would be one one where I would have to be faced with the circumstances. And I would know, I would have to know in advance that we had, we had a plan in place to just arbitrarily say, I think we had a person said, I don’t take no polygraph test. You remember what I’m talking about? I do in Georgia. without a plan. I would not be likely to take that action. But if I had, if I had support, if I already do, we had a battle plan. And I was ready to be arrested like Rosa Parks was when she said I get I’m going to the back of the bus. If I do that I had all the pieces in place. And this this was very important to me. I would I would do it, but I just wouldn’t do it on a whimsical thing to find out what they would do because what they would do would probably not be something that you would enjoy.

Andy 9:51
Alright.

Unknown Speaker 9:54
So, tread lightly, Jeff, I think that would be the answer.

Larry 10:00
We don’t know.

Andy 10:02
We don’t know. I do understand. All right, well, then let’s I guess we should start tackling some of these articles. And first up, Larry is something that you wanted to bring up since the appeals court orders judge to dismiss Flynn charges. This is so confusing to me, Larry, that I, I didn’t follow it closely. But I know that so here’s a lieutenant general, I believe is what he used to be my little so he’s a three star general. And I thought they actually convicted him of lying to the FBI is what is that what it was?

Larry 10:39
Well, not quite right. He had pled to that. Okay. Yeah. But he has not he had not he had not been sentenced.

Andy 10:49
Okay. And but he, you’ve said before that if somebody recant their testimony, you know, they are a liar, and they have lied about either the statement that they made or the reason recantation that they have downplay or state, isn’t, this feels the same way to me.

Larry 11:07
Well, it could feel that way. But it really isn’t. I mean, you could you could he filed a motion after in the plea to withdraw his plea saying that the government had breached the plea agreement. And then the months later the government filed some motions saying that they want to dismiss the case. This turns on something I said in previous episodes, I don’t remember which one, but I’ll always have insisted that the prosecution holds all the cards. Really, when it comes when it comes down to what a judge can do. The judge is a neutral arbiter. The prosecution decides what charge to bring. What, what if, if whether to charge or not. And if the prosecution decides that they do not wish to go forward with a case, they can discontinue, they’re going forward. It’s not so far fetched. That after a prosecution has ensued that you might want to drop charges even up until before sentencing, new information could surface that could cause you as your duty as a prosecutor to seek justice to want to dismiss the case. And judge Sullivan, for whatever reason, decided that he was the one who got to make that decision. And I think I said unequivocally, that prosecution rests entirely with the prosecution whether to go forward, the government decided it did not want to go forward.

Unknown Speaker 12:33
And therefore, they said we’re disengaging from this prosecution. Now, it’s a whole nother issue or not about whether anything was improper, and how they came to that decision. But it is entirely the prosecution’s decision. And when when a judge says I won’t accept a plea agreement. The prosecutor, all they have to say is well judge, you’ll either accept it, or we have the ultimate trump card. We’ll dismiss the case and you won’t have anything. So So so that was the point I wanted to make here was that

Larry 13:04
the DC Circuit Court of Appeals did exactly what I expected them to do was to order judge Sullivan to dismiss this case. I believe this is the proper ruling. And and I believe that it will be upheld. If there’s if there’s two avenues left for that they can take they can ask for a full on bike review by the full DC circuit, which is seldom granted, or they could follow cert petition with US Supreme Court. Either way, I believe they’ll lose.

Unknown Speaker 13:32
But if they if they fall, if if the if the if the circuit grants on bond review, I think they’ll affirm the three judge panel which was divided pal but that’s my pals are they’re not unanimous. You have to for what against the it turned out to Trump appointees for for, for dismissing the case and the Obama appointee was was was was not in favor. I don’t see this is a red or blue issue. I know people are just determined to make everything red or blue. I see this as entirely What the system is supposed to do, the prosecution can decide to dismiss cases or to bring charges or what charges to bring, per se it gets a little bit troubling for me is that the Attorney General of the United States, Mr. Barr has cried his crocodile tears about how the prosecution’s can be overzealous and how this prosecution was, in fact, overzealous and he wants to do the right thing. And I commend him for wanting to do the right thing and this one case, but as in rush limbaugh’s case in Florida, when the state prosecutors were all in his behind about his phony drug prescriptions he was having written back, what was it 15 years ago, remember? rush limbaugh forgot. He talked and ranted and raved on the radio about how the prosecution was overzealous in his case and how they have this enormous amount of power and he’s been ranting and raving about this case. Rush embar Why don’t you do something to try to fix the systemic problem we have here? It’s nice that you carry this one case but we have a systemic problem where we give the prosecutors way too much power. They can they can beat someone into taking a plea, even though the person thinks they’re not guilty and that’s what Flint’s that happened to him.

Andy 15:16
All right, because you know, CNN is running around saying that this is the most improper use of his power and foxes running around saying that, yay, this is what should have happened all along. And this was a bogus case to begin with.

Unknown Speaker 15:30
I’m not gonna I’m gonna pronounce where it’s bogus case, I have not gotten enough of sufficient information for that. But I will say anything I’ll do about the decision. This is exactly the decision that I would if I were sitting on the DC circuit, this is exactly what I would have done. Now it is a little bit peculiar that they did it through a writ of mandamus, which is merely a vehicle that he filed, he filed a petition for a writ of mandamus I think it was, and he could have done he could have done an appeal rather than a bent and bent mandamus is supposed to be seldomly used very My used an extraordinarily use, and when there’s no other remedy, and the panel had some disagreement about whether there were further yet other remedies available to him, but other than that, I agree completely with the ruling. So all the people out there who think I’m a lib tard. And I don’t know where they get that, because this is exactly what I would have done. If I were sitting on that court.

Andy 16:21
We have talked about let’s talk about that writ of mandamus for just a minute that good cases have been brought up with good evidence, but they use the wrong vehicle. What is the writ of mandamus? Like, what does that what does that mean? When should it be used not be used?

Larry 16:36
But it should be used when it’s appropriate, Andy?

Andy 16:39
Oh, of course, I should have known that. But what is it? What does that mean? Well,

Larry 16:48
a man mandamus is merely when when you file something in court, you’ve you you have a type a cause of action. The court is filled with causes of action and they’ll have have their unique set of rules of how and when they’re used. So when you’re gonna when you’re going to get a divorce, what do you file a

Andy 17:07
petition to divorce I guess

Larry 17:10
or might be routed as a petition for dissolution of marriage. Okay, and you and you file you file the right vehicle for the for the cause of action that you’re seeking. When when a mandamus is use, it’s, I have not seen it used in a situation like this. So I agree with the dissenting Obama appointee that this is an unusual remedy a mandamus is normally used for an agency that should be doing something that is not doing or an agency that’s not allowed to do something that it is doing. So you would you would seek to prohibit or compel the agency to do or not do something that’s doing. In the case of a judge the vehicle we would use in this state would be a we would file a petition for Superintendent control, we would ask the state Supreme Court that we have a If this had been a state case, and the judge was refusing to dismiss, we would have filed a petition in the state Supreme Court asking for Superintendent control for the Supreme Court to say judge dismissed the case. But but the mandamus was is an unusual vehicle. So to the extent they have a claim for anything, that’s where their claim is, because it’s an unusual vehicle remedy to use. And it’s important that you use the right vehicle. So if they were to gain any traction on their arguments, it might be that that was where the where the traction would be, would be that they used a vehicle that really was not appropriate for, for the situation that they should have taken an appeal ON JUDGE judge Sullivan, Judge Sullivan appointed this up. He he wanted to keep the prosecution alive. So he appointed Amicus, he appointed a basically another a parallel prosecutor and the parallel prosecutor was getting ready to move forward with the case saying that this this case should continue. And that’s that’s what it’s like how long should plan have to do it? Before it’s ended, and he had set a briefing scheduled to move forward. I mean, the panel said, This case has to because the government has moved for it and the judge, the judge doesn’t have the power to not dismiss the case.

Andy 19:15
So Celtic a prosecution can can dismiss.

Larry 19:19
The prosecution wants to in the case of the case of the US government, the Department of Justice is the president. People decided that the attorney general serves at the pleasure of the President. Right. It’s not like it’s not like in your state system where you have elected district attorneys were like the prosecutors from all across your state. And the US government, the the attorney general, is the Department of Justice and the Attorney General serves at the present presence leisure, and I didn’t design the system, but that’s the system we have.

Andy 19:53
But that but just to put a cap on that he doesn’t. He isn’t there to do the President’s bidding. He They’re

Larry 20:03
Well, what do you mean by that? I mean, he’s not there today. He’s supposed to be doing do it justice. But But if if if the President, I don’t know, say the president called him ask him anything. I don’t have any evidence of that. But

Andy 20:15
no, I’m with you on that. No, I’m not I’m not suggesting that. But he’s not all. He’s also not supposed to be going the other direction. what you just described, though, he’s not also supposed to then go be a hit squad, and Google the power of the Justice Department against people per the President’s request.

Larry 20:30
Well, I would agree with that. But does does the President forego any opportunity to call up one of his appointees of sound like a little concerned about this situation?

Andy 20:41
Yeah. Where does that start to get murky and the president having a hit squad in either direction of saying, Hey, we got to hit these people with kid gloves, but then we’re going to put on the mike tyson gloves for this?

Unknown Speaker 20:52
Well, I don’t know. But I’ll just say the president. If if we were talking about any other agency of government, you wouldn’t say the President could call it expresses concern, or why is it that the Department of Justice as president can’t say, gee, I’ve heard a lot about this case I find a little bit troubling. I mean, he ultimately he ultimately could have pardoned Flynn if he wanted to. Because his his power to pardon is absolute and people have gotten. I think we had some experts tell us on one of our episodes about the power depart as a no, it’s absolute president has an absolute power depart. There’s no restrictions and the Constitution on this power depart. And it’ll reference on the podcast, but someone was telling me that the President it. I mean, you could impeach the president if he started using the power clearly in an abusive fashion. But who is the president part zoning the President’s concerned?

Andy 21:41
Gotcha. I understand. All right. Well, then let’s move over to an article from Tech dirt or says more schools or any contracts with cops following protests over the killing of George Floyd. I, Larry, I did not have police in school. I don’t there may have been like somebody that would come by On occasion, I just there was never that I think there were like Hall monitors that, like adults that were that were making sure that kids weren’t running around when they weren’t supposed to. But we didn’t have law enforcement in the school. And this has always troubled me that there are actually like cops stationed at schools. And so I’m personally pleased to see that not not that I’m happy that this whole thing with George Floyd in the protests has happened, but I’m happy to see that this is a result of it, that the public schools are starting to pull back on having armed officers at schools. This seems I do not I do not like the idea that the cops are there to begin with. So that seems good to me.

Larry 22:38
Well, I agree, but there’ll be those that are that are listening that will tell us that we’re completely out of touch because they will say you don’t remember but it was Hillary Clinton that talked about the super predators back in the 90s. And how kids were being so violent, and I have always had great consternation about a uniform in particular armed police all She’s in our schools. It’s bothered me. And it’s been a last 10 years that we’ve armed our school resource officers here. But until until that happened, they were there but they weren’t. They weren’t carrying sidearms, but now they’re they’re fully armed. And it’s bothered me. And I think that this was a good thing. I don’t know how far this goes. Because if there’s such a thing as Super predators out there, as Hillary referred to them, it may be that some schools need a higher higher level of security and armaments, but I just relate back to my own school. I mean, we would never thought of having such a thing was it’s it’s just so bizarre to me that you’re running up and down the hall with with cops in the school building carrying guns.

Andy 23:44
Mm hmm. Um, why couldn’t I’ve heard this is like the defunding the police but an alternative police model of you don’t need a cop at a school with a gun necessarily, but you need someone that can be Somewhat trained in incident response that can be a very trained phone dialer to alert higher end officials who’s in a better trained armed officials to come in for an incident. We could say Columbine, or Sandy nuts. Yeah, Sandy Hook and then Park Park Park. what’s the what’s the one in Florida Park Park line park? Shoot. Let’s do one in Florida that happened like two years ago. Remember?

Larry 24:27
Well, I was gonna I was gonna say that to people who’ve lost children in school shootings, they would they would possibly see it differently that unarmed response and an armed officer would be preferable to being completely protected. So I don’t I don’t know that. I don’t know that we we get agreement uniformly that there should be no armed officers in school. I just I just say I’ve been very troubled by it. Yeah.

Andy 24:52
But it’s got to be intimidating to the kids. They’re too I don’t know how they would look at it as do they revere the police is being the almighty saviors of everything that so that makes it a great things that a PR stunt almost like you know we have we have movies that paint the military in these really pristine lights like you know movies like Top Gun, like the recruiting efforts behind Top Gun were phenomenal numbers came out of that, you know, hundredfold something, you know some crazy number of them having higher recruiting numbers after that. Do you think that people kids grow up seeing cops in their schools like wow, that’s what I want to do. I want to go be a hall monitor.

Larry 25:31
I think we should get some of the teenagers that are in high school today and see what their take on it is. I think it’s too distant for us to even relate to

Andy 25:38
probably probably Yeah, cuz I mean you were going to school like you were like Little House on the Prairie running down the hill going to you it was in school.

Larry 25:47
It was in the mid 1800s actually early 1800s.

Andy 25:52
You guys are writing on stone tablets.

Larry 25:54
I was I was in government in the mid 1800s for I was in the liquor industry.

Andy 26:02
Did they have papers you were writing you were taking your notes by candlelight and a quill.

Larry 26:07
That’s what we were doing. And, and whenever that telegraph thing came out of that really changed everything.

Andy 26:15
You guys had news streaming across the country instantly. All right. So over the appeal, we have Miranda rights weakened by the Supreme Court how the Supreme Court has gradually weakened the legal protections you have when you are arrested. I would be willing to bet, Larry that it is just part of your like, just like you know, that you can say, I know my rights, and I don’t have to talk to you. But this is sort of like this is something that occurred in the 60s to like, I have to read you your Miranda rights. Before that. There were no protections and in reading this article, that’s pretty lengthy. You can see how things have been torn down since then. But what did people do like what would like come the place come to you before the Miranda case. And they would like lie to you, and you just had to deal with them abusing you and making you talk.

Larry 27:11
No, you’ve you’ve always had that. Right. The The, the issue is of whether or not the cops must apprise you of that. And then what distance they should place between when when you invoke your Miranda rights, should they stop? Or are they allowed to keep going? And when can they come back? If you’ve invoked your your Miranda rights, can they come back a few hours later the next day. And I’ll put this in here. It is a very long read. But we’ve got a conservatively audience who periodically chastise us for being too liberal, and they believe the conservatives are our salvation. And I would just encourage anyone who has that belief to read this article, and watch how the conservative majority of the court that replaced the liberal Warren Court Which adopted Miranda and the 1960s. Watch how they’ve chipped away at the Miranda rights, which is one of many things we could cover in the course of this podcast about how the conservatives are not our friend on most things, but they believe with all the the, of their heart. They believe that if we just had all nine conservatives that we would just have, we’d be in the promised land. So take the time read through this and then come back with your questions or your or your response next week. But this lays it out pretty succinctly about who’s been weakening Miranda, including judge Thomas, Judge, Rehnquist, judge. I mean, we can go on and on but Alito, and the liberals are trying to protect that and that conservatives have have launched all that war on on Miranda

Andy 28:54
and this comes from if we, to me, it seems if we would pull as far back as we can and just like the conservatives are very pro law enforcement that they should have as many tools as they can and that they would never break their oath to serve and protect. But they use some shady tactics to get you to admit to things or take things out of context after you’ve been interrogated for dozens of hours. I don’t know, that seems you’re at a very severe disadvantage when you’re dealing with the people with the guns and the tasers and the handcuffs. And that you don’t know like, hey, am I being arrested? Am I being officially detained that you could just walk out? And I don’t know that people feel that they can do that and what kind of impression that would make that would be very complicated. And you would have to have very big components to just say, Well, I’m done here. I’m out.

Larry 29:50
Well, take a take a look at the paragraph. Like I say people should read it that that come from the conservative persuasion. But today’s court unquoted looks nice. Unlike the one that decided Miranda is dominated by Dr. Mary conservatives, his movement, his movements fondness for Law and Order politics cannot be disentangled from the jurisprudence. Just Clarence Thomas, for example, is notorious for his indifference to the plight of the poor, incarcerated or otherwise vulnerable people. In 1992. He opined that Louisiana prison guards brutal beating of a prisoner was not cruel, unusual punishment because the injuries the man suffered weren’t serious enough. In 1985, serious enough would be I don’t know. In 1985, Justice Alito boasted that his interested whilst in frogman part, his disagreement with the Warren Court decisions, particularly areas of Criminal Procedure, among others, now as Justice he has the power to help peel back these two decisions himself. And and this is this has been very troubling to me that the the Warren Court was replaced by the burger port which in hindsight looks pretty liberal. To what has the the subsequent Rehnquist. And then the the the the court we have now. And at this area, we don’t get a lot of favorable decisions out of this conservative court.

Andy 31:14
Well, there you go. So, Larry, you hate conservatives. That’s what we can take from this.

Larry 31:20
I don’t think we could take that from it. Occasionally. Occasionally. Occasionally they do some good stuff. I’ve said like with with with the Confrontation Clause. We didn’t have a stronger supporter of the Confrontation Clause then than the late does Scalia. He was right on one thing. But he was wrong on so many others.

Andy 31:42
But somebody has the chat just before we recorded about I want to bring this up. Specifically someone asked in chat just before we recorded about what does anyone think about the restorative justice and I was just like, immediately channeling my inner Larry about confrontation in In due process when when thinking about that,

Larry 32:03
well, it doesn’t matter what I think about it, I’m going to tell you what to think about it. But it doesn’t matter because that’s not our system. We don’t have that model, we have the adversarial system. And if you want to tear down the country and rebuild it to your liking, that’s fine. There’s a process to do that. But in the meantime, we have an adversarial system.

Andy 32:24
I gotcha. How about we move over to an article from the Law Review, and then a subsequent article from CNET about the Constitution protects faces in crowds. And the other one from CNET is geo fence warrants how police can use protesters phones against them. And this all stems from the people going out and protesting. I guess, kind of related to Jeff’s question earlier, that the police could just get a request from a company like Google for all of the cell phone data and now they know where you were and that would potentially Create a problem of you having the freedom to assemble and I think you should be able to assemble anonymously and not have without without, like all of the processes for a judge to, to to give that data up have to get your whereabouts. But if you think that the police are watching you, then maybe you would have less of a willingness to go out and protest. And just wanted to put it on the radar if people aren’t already aware that your phone is the biggest. If you are trying to be anonymous, your phone is creating a huge paper trail of everything that you’re doing all the breadcrumbs that you can leave are being done with a phone for you.

Larry 33:41
Well, why would you tell them I put it in a Faraday bag. I think you said

Andy 33:45
you could put it in a Faraday bag you’re not going to be able to receive any phone calls.

Larry 33:49
Well, who the hell do who take phone calls anymore?

Andy 33:52
I see. I feel that way. Larry. I don’t necessarily ever want to answer phone calls. Like just send me a text message. Honestly. But I do find it problematic that even you know, if you do have a phone on you that you you have made an agreement with a Google company, or a Facebook company, you’ve made those agreements with them. And then for the government to come in and do a massive dragnet and just get all of the data of all the people that were within this sort of pretty narrow area for a specific time window. That’s that’s a whole lot of very innocent people that are being swept into a dragnet for finding somebody that was doing something not appropriate.

Larry 34:35
Well, daughter here of this article, Theodore Claypool, I’m going to have a go with it. He’s probably, he’s gonna, I’m gonna have to say he’s far more qualified than I am. And he says that you do have such a right to anonymity in a protest and I’m just not so sure you do. So I would like I would like for people out there. In chat that there are gurus in constitutional law to decipher the constitution and tell us where that right is derived to be anonymous, you have the right to petition government for redress of your grievances. But when you petition your senator, you generally tell your senator who you are. I know when I’ve testified and spoken, I was asked for a name and I suppose you could give them a bogus name. But, but I’m not so sure that that you have where where does that right in the constitution? How do they squeeze that right out? And say you have the right to do it anonymously?

Andy 35:33
riddle me that well, okay. So something that I heard along the way I don’t remember where it was, is one of the protections that would almost be like a search and seizure kind of thing. But on the First Amendment side, if you are, let’s just throw out something extreme. So you’re a white nationalist, and you are very against minorities. And when you’re going to little meetings in the woods where you guys were your little white hoods. You may not want a Have your neighbors and all those people knowing what you go do. Or if you are living in a very conservative part of the country and you are going to an abortion clinic, I don’t think that those people would want just the general public to know what they’re doing. But if you know that you’re being monitored, well, you may change your behavior just because you know that you’re being monitored and it would suppress your freedom of speech.

Larry 36:23
Well, I do agree with you, and they would do that very thing. But it depends on where you do it. At. Like Clinton said, it depends on the meaning what the word is, is. If you if you’re out in public space, where there’s no expectation of privacy, that is different than if you’re out on 40 acres of land that’s owned by a friend of yours and you’re having a hooded, get together. I think that that standard of an expectation of privacy would go up depending on where you are. And if you’re out on the streets or in a public Park, I’m not so sure you have the same protection that if you’re out on somebody lower 40.

Andy 37:06
But think about the problem that I have with the example is that we have surveillance cameras all over, that are being used for Hey, can we do traffic management? can we can we do better incidence response? If there’s a car crash, instead of waiting for someone that down on them, we can actually see it happen. Or we can see traffic happening, we can start controlling traffic lights and migrate traffic around to avoid that area. But if if if we rolled the clock back to when you were a kid, there was no ability for the government to surveil you in mass like that. And now you’ve made an arrangement with a private company. And they’re pulling you out of those data that you didn’t make an agreement with them to store your data for law enforcement usage. You did it for things pretty much like advertising. I mean, if you’re getting a product for free, like Google Maps, they’re doing something with the data. But I don’t think that they’re the design was not to give it to law enforcement. That design was to be able to analyze your particular behavior patterns. To sell you advertisements or sell advertisements to you not to be a, you know, a snitch to the police, by by hundreds of thousands or 10s of thousands of people.

Larry 38:13
Well, it gets very murky and like the answer to Jeff earlier, we just don’t know. Certainly, we truly don’t know this because the police generally, to go beyond certain boundaries have to have a particularized reason. So to merely go through video, and use facial recognition, which is what this article is about to figure out who someone is, is a bit like fish. We don’t know. The police go fishing if we allowed the police to knock at doors and randomly pick cars with though individualized suspicion and search cars. We would come up with a lot of contraband both at the doors and the homes and the vehicles we would do that but we don’t allow that. Even when they’re out in public. We don’t allow the police to intrude in a person’s privacy. But I’m having a little bit of trouble with your face in the crowd being an intrusive Trojan and your privacy because you’re voluntarily out in public. And we’re surveillance society. We’re almost as bad as London has been for the last 20 years we’ve caught we’ve caught up with them. You’re out in public. And anyone could be video you at any time now, the average citizen doesn’t have the ability to convert that to to an individual’s identity, but the police do. So the question is whether they should have to have a warrant to convert a particular image, should they have some articulable reason to convert an image to an identity that they have that they would have to go to a judge to ask for that? Or can they just do it because they have the technology? That’s what that’s the unanswered question. We don’t know.

Andy 39:50
Couldn’t be too like if we if we compare it to the TSA, the first things that they released like they were seeing your junk and now They have basic like very, you know, just anatomically sort of close cartoon figures. And it says that there is something that they have detected on your thigh. So then they go over there and they, you know, they hit you with the back of their hand on your thigh to see if something is there. They could take the faces that they can discern and run those through and only turn they don’t need to get every Tom, Dick and Harry that they see they could just get whether they like go in and say, we’re looking for this individually or looking for the Boston bombers. And they know the faces that they’re looking for, and only return the people that they that they get hits on and not get the identity of every person. They don’t need to know that every person was at that rally. Well,

Larry 40:46
again, I agree. I agree with you on that premise. But when suppose they’re using the video to try to identify a suspect. And they’ve they’ve got the video from either a private source or from it was on a pole in public that the government owns. And they, they, they see a person that looks kind of like that, and they want to run that person. This, this writer says that they should go to the court and get they should articulate the probable cause they should say what happened, and why they need to convert that to an identity. And that’s the answer questions, should they should they have to do that? Or should they be able to just do it because they can

Andy 41:25
come to me and they should have to get a warrant? To me they should for something with Institute the facial recognition stuff. But why don’t other stuff at this point?

Larry 41:35
Well, that’s what the writer saying that’s what Mr. Claypool says. And it’s that they should have to do that. And it’s not going to be the end all life as we know, but I can tell you one thing. The police will tell you be the end of all life as we know. Because they don’t want to give up any usage of any tool that they have. Yeah, so what that once they’ve been using this they’re not going to want to have to go articulate what they’re why they want They want to convert facial recognition to an identity.

Andy 42:04
What about forget about just an extension of that of the political side of that, not just for law enforcement, but then now we know your political rivals, and if we should happen to move somewhere closer to some kind of tyranny, and now we start bullying. You know, if you’re at these rallies, there’s probably some level that you could say that these people lean this way politically. And now, the other side could push against those people from a political point of view and intimidate to more voter suppression kind of things, just to keep those people from gaining any power.

Larry 42:38
Those are legitimate fears, and I think we’re already seeing at least allegations of that that that blue states are being punished for for for not going along with the program. Just like those allegations, I’m not pronouncing that that’s happening, but I’m saying those allegations are out there.

Andy 42:56
Yep. All right. Have we beat that dead horse far enough? We have ready to be a part of registry matters, get links at registry matters.co. If you need to be all discreet about it, contact them by email registry matters. cast@gmail.com you can call or text or ransom message 27472274477 I want to support registry matters on a monthly basis, tied to patreon.com slash registry matters. Not ready to become a patron. Give a five star review at Apple podcasts or Stitcher or tell your buddies at your treatment class about the podcast. We want to send out a big heartfelt support for those on the registry. Keep fighting without you, we can’t succeed. You make it possible. The next thing is going to be from the Supreme Court of the state of Illinois. Did I pronounce it right there.

Larry 44:00
I think that’s right on the mark, Illinois. I liked it.

Andy 44:04
Oh, I

Unknown Speaker 44:06
was gonna I was gonna say Illinois, but I guess it’s Illinois.

Andy 44:12
All right, this is a case that is pretty recent winter this one June 18. That’s like, nine days ago. And I think this is related to parks again. Is that right?

Larry 44:24
It is and it’s a very, very troubling case. And in fact, narshall issued a statement that that was issued to the to a writer who contacted tarsal about what what their take on it was and we can post a statement of what we thought about it. This was a person who whose minor was at a park and it’s not clear the age of the binder but from all description, it looks like a pretty young kid because they’re talking about t ball. And, but the kid was at a park And the father went to the park to retrieve his minor. And a local police officer recognized him and went had a visit with him and he called the police department. He was off duty, but he called his department and reported it. And then the department went visited him. And then they decided to prosecute him for being in the park. And it was my opinion and I helped compose the statement that NASA issued. It was my opinion that that the Lord was the lawyering was not particularly good in this case. And we have the benefit of 2020 hindsight. But the defense that should have been perfected on appeal was the necessity defense and necessity defenses. Where were you where you say that you did something? Yes, I affirm. I did. It is one of the many defenses that are out there. Which means you can see the underlying conduct but you say that you should be forgiven and Santa did defenses, affirmative defense, self defense as an affirmative defense, you say, yeah, shot the sob. But I did it for these reasons. And I should be excuse. Well, he had the necessity defense, which was that his minor was in the park and he was trying to retrieve the minor. And the judge said he was overruling the necessity to finance that he did not brief that on appeal. So therefore, it wasn’t considered on appeal. He had these really clever defenses he was gonna, he was gonna use instead. And he said that because there were two sections of Illinois law 11 dash nine dash 4.1 11 dash 9.3. And he said that since one of them provided it offense, that the other one should have provided defense and he he wanted the court to incorporate into the statute a defense that wasn’t there by the legislative, the legislature had provided for. So he was asking the court to do a little bit of legislating from the bench. And all of our people that listen to this podcast, they do not believe in legislating from the bench, right?

Andy 47:13
Absolutely not. They have the black robes and they should only hear the evidence and rely on the evidence.

Larry 47:19
And so therefore his his assertion that, that there should have been a defense because under the more serious felony charge, there is a defense that you that you can assert it that excuses you, because you’re you’re accompanying a minor and you’re talking to a minor only because you’re accompanying a minor, and that minor is with you, but but in this just simply being present, there is no defense. And he said there should be at the fence. And the court said, Well, maybe there should be but it’s not our job to put it in there. And we don’t legislate from the bench here, which I hope and there was just this massive round of applause applause going in the audience now because since we’re so dead set on having textualist interpretation and allegedly on the bench, and this is exactly what you would want. This decision would be precisely what a textualist interpretation would yield. So that’s the main reason I put it in here because it’s another chance for me to say, well, they weren’t right by the text. The text isn’t against the law, and therefore, they didn’t legislate from the bench. he’s guilty of a misdemeanor. If he gets convicted of this again, it’ll be a felony. And, and his appeal was was not protected on the necessity of offense. Therefore, he loses.

Andy 48:35
I was reading through here that it also says that his wife I believe it was or at least the kids mom was out of town. The the event defendant testified that his fiance was at a time when no one else was available to retrieve CG from the park that night. Larry, like what are you supposed to do? Like your kid is now not home and you are now looking for sad kid and you have no other Adults that could act on your behalf to go retrieve that kid. So you just put your lunch like that now you got defects or whichever whatever you want to call those agencies. Now they’re coming after you for child neglect. This is all it Hobson’s choice. It’s not the right way.

Larry 49:13
It is indeed. And, of course, the court said he could have called the police and I would have retrieved the kid. But they also would have called protected excuse me, they would call Protective Services. But but but again, the court did say that the legislature should go back and visit this again. But it’s the legislative problem. I mean, the court the court didn’t, didn’t create this mess and they there should be a defense. And he should have in all fairness, the lawyer should have perfected that necessity defense, and he shouldn’t have dropped it on appeal. He should have he or she should have really hit that hard. Until the appellate court. Yes, he did go in the park and that’s exactly what any parent would do.

Andy 49:59
So you know, Law says it is unlawful for any child sex offender to knowingly be president, any public won’t get caught knowingly. That means you have to then know that you’re somewhere or Park building playground recreational area within any publicly accessible privately owned building, blah, blah, blah. Any public park when persons under the age of 18 are present in the building, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, you can’t be at a park, if you have some sort of child offense. And apparently he did that god dude, you have no ability to survive this one. Because I didn’t bring I didn’t think about the police one that they’re going to call defects to when that’s over.

Larry 50:35
Oh, yeah. You’re screwed because you call the police and say I’ve lost control my kid. They’re gonna, they’re gonna report that to

Andy 50:42
protect your services. So if you go you get arrested and charged with a misdemeanor, and if you just let the kid run around, then defects is gonna get called. And then if you try to call the police to try and retrieve them, they’re gonna, you’re screwed. There’s no winner on this one.

Unknown Speaker 50:58
There is no win and what This illustrates as to people out there that are so paranoid that they’re going to get prosecuted at the drop of a dime. That shows that those people are absolutely correct. Because this shows that, that that a police agency has so little to do that they had the manpower, the person power, can’t say manpower anymore, but they had the human resources and capital to prosecute this. It shows that the state’s attorney’s office in this jurisdiction had so much resources that they were able to perfect a prosecution. And this is exactly the reason why we’re trying to, in some way lessen the funding available for these agencies because they brought this case and if they had fewer resources, they would have had to have made a choice to bring this case. But officer Corrigan didn’t have any trouble.

Larry 51:51
He had plenty of time. This is called the Mendota police. I have no idea where that is, but it says La Salle county wherever that is probably near Chicago. But But he had, they have plenty of time, the state’s attorney’s office had plenty of time. And this is why when we say we’re not talking about abolishing law enforcement, we’re talking about reducing the reach of law enforcement. If they didn’t have the reach to this prosecution, they wouldn’t have done it. So the people out there that are so paranoid, they’re going to get prosecuted because the hovercraft there might be merited some of that paranoia.

Andy 52:24
Yeah, I was just I was actually going to bring that up. So the hovercraft was working on this because the officer rec recognized them. I don’t have any affiliation with any sort of law enforcement to have a relationship that they would recognize me. That’s me personally, I couldn’t I don’t think any of them would recognize because I avoid them like the plague. So how did officer Corrigan testified that he went to the defendants residence later that night, when asked about his presence in the park, defendant stated he was there. I’ve read something else somewhere in here that would like you recognized him.

Larry 52:53
Yeah, he recognized him at the park. Yes. But but it’s like, what’s the population of that town that can tell you But I would bet that people might recognize you you don’t think recognize them because because that’s their job is to recognize people. So I bet I bet you’d be surprised how many of them would recognize you in public.

Andy 53:11
That’s okay. Could be what am I looking up where my What’s our county?

Larry 53:17
I’m looking at Mendota to see how many people that the hill

Andy 53:21
sell county is 100 808,000 people that’s pretty decent place.

Larry 53:27
And the population This town is 7300. Today in 2010, it’s a default

Andy 53:32
everybody recognizes everybody.

Larry 53:34
It’s a five mile west of Chicago. I thought about being a cell that would be the the cows that so that’s the name is common in Chicago.

Andy 53:43
Hey, you remember that case? Two years ago where the kid threw himself off the the the garage after he got accused of doing naughty things? Yes, it’s that’s just to the northeast, that’s Naperville. Our neighbor was neighbor. So that’s just to the northeast of there.

Larry 54:00
But at least I’ve got people have gotten me admitting that their paranoia might be. not be so over the top because everybody’s worried about the hovercraft, like in this case, the hovercraft was there.

Andy 54:11
Absolutely. Anything else you want to point out on this one before we move on?

Larry 54:17
I think that that this is a tragedy. And I think that there needs to be a challenge again, and again, the legislature is not going to change the law unless they’re forced to. But I think there needs to be a challenge brought by anybody who is subject to this restriction, properly built, adequately funded, and people are going to have to bring forth the issue about that he tried to raise that that he was not able to parent his kid, that you’re not able to use publicly funded resources that this has to be hit every way possible. But just this this is ridiculous law.

Andy 54:56
Very well. How about we covered An article from the desert desert is desert. I’ve never heard of this word Larry desert. It sounds like desert desert desert anyway, Utah Supreme Court strikes down law allowing sex abuse lawsuits in case against federal judge. This thing says that there’s going to be like human we always talk about the U haul problem where everyone’s going to get a u haul van and move to Utah. They almost like said this in here says if I feel like they just want to put a welcome mat out for Utah on any predator who wants to abuse children. It’s a predator friendly state as long as this is the way we handle things and it’s not right.

Larry 55:39
So what’s your question?

Andy 55:40
I don’t necessarily a question but you put the article in here was a me that did it. Did I put this in here? I believe so. Anyway, why so I, I don’t ever think that this is how anything would go down anyway, even if it’s less bad than other places. I mean, like there’s still going to be a registry and they’re still Going to be monitoring of people. No one’s just gonna fall off the radar? I don’t think

Unknown Speaker 56:07
so.

Larry 56:07
Well. The reason I put it in I do recall putting it in the Supreme Court of the Utah Supreme Court that has struck down a law that allowed victims of sexual abuse to sue decades later, you know, where I am on this issue and anybody who listens regularly knows that that I have great problems with with with decades later lawsuits, I don’t I don’t think you can defend yourself. The standard of proof is so low in a civil case compared to a criminal case where it’s beyond a reasonable doubt. And I’m actually I’m okay, what’s really

Andy 56:40
surprisingly, so this is this is a statute of limitations things where they’re they’re rolling it back to making it to the I don’t even know that I saw a number in here of how many years like New York did 55 years or something like that. How long did they roll it back here?

Larry 56:53
I don’t I didn’t read a 22 page opinion. In fact, I couldn’t find it anywhere. So but but yes,

Andy 56:57
I see it in the article. I don’t see anything. Sort of a any number anyway, so they have rolled back some kind of statute of limitations to where umpteen bajillion years later that you can be sued for something that happened and no one can defend. Anybody houses don’t exist, evidence doesn’t exist, memories fail, and so forth. But someone says they made you feel squishy, and now they can sue you. And so you’re saying civilly Tell me what the difference is between a civil suit and a criminal suit?

Larry 57:26
Well, criminal prosecution, the standard of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt which it’s, it’s a little unclear. I mean, no one can know what constitutes reasonable doubt it’s different with each juror. But with a civil suit, they make it clear that it’s just 50% slightly above 50% the evidence so in order to prevail in a civil lawsuit, you only have to show that it’s more likely than not that it happened. And then a civil lawsuit, they’re generally going after the deep pockets, they don’t really care about you, unless you have deep pockets. You’re just the way to the deep pocket. So If you were a clergy person with the Catholic Church, or if you were this case, a federal judge, they’re going after the deep pockets. And you’re the judge might not have anything, but it’s a little paltry 139,100 50,000 salary. But the federal government has a limited printing presses that are running 24 hours a day, seven days a week right now. I don’t really know if they can keep up running that that much, but but that’s what they’re going after. And this is all about the money. And I know I sound very insensitive. But if you’re going to be forced to defend yourself against something that’s big, alleged that happened decades ago, no one can do that. It’s ridiculous. It no one can do that. I mean, do you have a diary for you were in 1997. On July 7, definitely.

Andy 58:44
Definitely at 8pm. I knew it. I knew it. I knew it. I have to tell you, Larry, that prior to my involvement with this whole issue, I’ll be like, yes, you should always be able to go back and charge somebody and bring them and try to get restitution and all those things. You should always be able to go do that no matter when, because how do you serve justice? If you know if there’s a timeline for it? I’m pretty sure I would have felt that way going the other direction.

Larry 59:10
You would you would have and it’s it’s it’s one of the talking points. They say justice shouldn’t have an expiration date. Sure.

Andy 59:18
But I would say it’s probably it’s probably an at least it’s probably an ill conceived like, it sounds good. Like, hey, this person had these bad things happen. JonBenet Ramsey, like you, we should always be able to go get the killer of JonBenet Ramsey, and, but you know, start scaling things back that someone made me feel squishy, whatever that. But how it’s never looked at from the defense side that you could be accused and you could be innocent of it, and you need the ability to defend yourself. And that’s, that’s a hard, that’s a really hard pill to swallow there. I just, you know, just to be honest with you, it’s harder to swallow that one.

Larry 59:56
Well, I mean, no one is saying that a federal judge should be abused. Anybody that that’s not the issue here. The issue here is how do we preserve our beautiful system of due process of law and fundamental fairness? We don’t want no one wants. Anybody was power abusing anybody?

Andy 1:00:15
Yeah, I yeah, the victims advocates just have a much easier tugging at your heartstrings narrative to pull on that one too, to roll back any sort of protections without considering constitutionally protected processes.

Larry 1:00:29
Well, it’s it’s they don’t relate to it could happen to them. And they don’t really they don’t, they don’t realize the importance of the people fought and died for these protections of our Constitution. And they’re so willing to just give them away. Know that this is if we actually adhere to our Constitution. It’s a beautiful creation.

Andy 1:00:52
I understand completely my friend Um, so let’s go over to our almost last article. This is from it. The name of it is d cyst is the name of that publication, but it’s a DC list. And it says Virginia democrats hope to drop mandatory minimum sentencing. Wow. So that would be probably a good thing. mandatory minimums are a very troubling thing that if you want a judge to be a judge, then Shouldn’t they be allowed to go and look at you and your totality of your situation and your life and, and all that go, I don’t want this person to have a 10 year minimum or five year or 20 year minimum. I think that maybe they should only get a couple years and then some probation and just sort of like, you know, use the expression hit him with kid gloves. But if you have mandatory minimums, then the judge can’t do anything and he just has to hand you the 400 years that you get,

Unknown Speaker 1:01:46
you know, thankfully played a clip some number of episodes backwards judge said that I didn’t impose this on you. Yeah, yeah. Well, that. But this I mean, we we should all have to be asked at the end because this is a bunch Liberal Democrat Party activist in Virginia. And they’re trying to I mean, they’re opening a floodgate of criminality by taking the tools that the prosecution away, and they’re trying to assert their left wing agenda into this. And I can’t imagine that you could support such nonsense as this. Take away mandatory. Oh, that’s how I feel. Right.

Larry 1:02:28
So well, do you think it’ll pass

Andy 1:02:30
though?

Larry 1:02:32
I do. I think it’ll pass on a party line vote. It’ll be one of those blue versus red. Thanks. Unfortunately, I don’t think many Republicans will want to build away I hope I’m wrong. But I don’t think many Republicans that want to do away but I don’t think that the Democrat Party will get demagogued for for for for their actions. They’ll be accused of turning loose the tidal wave of a wave of crime. But I do I do think it’ll pass and I think the governor will see And, you know, isn’t it interesting this governor, they’re not that long ago they were calling on him to resign

Unknown Speaker 1:03:05
for his face.

Larry 1:03:07
Yes. And he said, I’m not going anywhere, you know, like, there’s nobody calling for his resignation. At least I’m not hearing about it nationally. Maybe they’re calling going on that regard. So,

Andy 1:03:17
by the way, it’s well, I wonder why that went away just that seemed to almost just evaporate. Maybe it was a I don’t know. That was a year ago that that was going on. What What happened to that got squashed out of the media. So very quickly,

Larry 1:03:34
gets a conspiracy of the left wing, Democrat party control media. See, you don’t understand this stuff. It’s very obvious that the drive by media’s leftist control by the Democrat Party.

Andy 1:03:51
You know, you’re saying all that stuff, and I’m very sensitive to the emails we’ve gotten. You’ve told me that I should not worry about But I do consider it. I even went and took one of the articles that we dropped and I went looked for the same coverage from one of the right wing nutjob places just so I could so we could be bound?

Larry 1:04:10
Well, I would say that that I listen to talk shows I don’t agree with it, I would never listen to JK ob and rush limbaugh and the conservative crowd over there. If I expected to agree with him. I listened to them to be informed and to understand their perspective, and to try to give them the benefit of the doubt that I don’t believe that people I disagree with are trying to destroy America. Now unfortunately, they say that that about us if we’re trying to tear down the country, I believe that they’re misguided. But if you’re listening to us, you’re not gonna agree with us on everything that we talked about here. But hopefully you’re we’re given a different perspective that you may not have considered. But But if you’re expecting to agree with us, you probably should just turn the podcast off.

Andy 1:04:49
But it’s so I mean, we were accused of like purporting like a conspiracy theories of the left and I was like I I’m still trying to figure out what that relates. To Exactly.

Larry 1:05:02
Well, I don’t I mean, I have I have bashed the left quite a bit. So anybody who listens regularly knows that I tried my best to cut it down the middle and this democrat stuff, I’m doing this talking cheap because I resent the term Democrat Party. That’s not the name of the party. And I wish they would say the Democratic Party, and I don’t think they should be afraid if I say the Republican Party third ago, they’re not going to pronounce the party correctly. But the Democrat Party is not always right. And I say that. I wish the people who are members of the republican party would say our party is often wrong. Our party, our democratic party, we’re not right about everything. We’re right, in my view, more more than I think we’re right more than they are. That’s why I’m in the Democratic Party. But but we’re wrong about things. I’ll give you an example of the the $600 extra unemployment benefits, there was dissension about that extra benefit. What whether it would discourage work. The Democrats were right, in one regard that if you force employers to close down and allow them to work, that they should be compensated at a level consistent with what they would have been earning, had they allowed them to work. Republicans are right when they say, well, that’s nice, except for two people who are getting the extra $600. In many Astros instances are receiving more than what they were earning working, therefore, it disincentivizes work. They were both right. Sure. It’s like,

Andy 1:06:31
incentivize work, we had to disincentivize work so people didn’t need to go out and go do things that they would do otherwise, that would help promote spreading of the virus.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:44
But I don’t know that that was a major consideration. I think it was trying to keep the purchasing power up of what the people that were not allowed to work would have been spending. I think that was more of a consideration but the republicans are right that if you if you were earning $200 a week, and no particular interest instance where a person was earning less than 200. Now it’s getting close to 800. Coming to 600. Adam, that person has absolutely no incentive to go to work. The Republicans are right. But the democrats were right that the people who were earning $900 a week, since most state unemployment benefits are usually the $400 a week or less range. We shouldn’t cut them from 900 a week to 400 a week and not allow them burn anything else without making some comp. I mean, both sides were right.

Andy 1:07:28
Here Yeah. Well, let’s, let’s let’s go over something that we probably should have covered last week using crappy old telephone technology, but this is from tour similary whatever. That’s the name of the appellee from Pennsylvania. This is a I don’t even know what this is about there. What is this whole case about?

Unknown Speaker 1:07:51
stuff?

Andy 1:07:52
stuff. All right, cool. And then we’re done.

Larry 1:07:57
Oh, well, this is This is Theresa with us tonight. I haven’t looked.

Andy 1:08:03
I have not seen her She is not here.

Larry 1:08:06
Okay, so this is this is the ongoing saga of registration in Pennsylvania. And just for any first time listeners that people have missed previous episodes where we’ve talked about Pennsylvania, there has been so much litigation and and that state and the the law changed in 2012. They adopted what they consider to be their version of the Adam Walsh Act. And in 2012, it took effect December 20, I believe 2012. And that, that changed the system altogether and put in the 1525 and lifetime registration. And it made it retroactive and the the Supreme Court in Pennsylvania decided in 2017 and mo now, so that was unconstitutional for those whose crimes predated 2012 and so the legislature decided to do a fix. So they came up with a with a with a version of the registry that was less onerous for people whose crimes predated 2012. And they came up with what they left the, the previous version, they left what they had passed in 2012. In effect for people. This guy’s this guy’s conviction occurred in 2017. So he was subject to the more onerous requirements of the of the, of the law. And, and he he contested that within his criminal case. He said that, that the the register registration applied to him was unconstitutional. The trial judge agreed. I wish I could find the 70 something page opinion. That’s why I was hoping Teresa was here, because I’d like to read the 70 something page opinion, but he the trial judge agreed he or she The registration requirements of the newly enacted law was unconstitutional. And this, this is the Pennsylvania Supreme Court’s decision on on the trial judge. And I like this decision. I wish they had affirmed. But I see this decision as leaning towards the farmers later they they’re giving this the state of chance to, to, to prove that this this recidivism is frightening and high. And they didn’t do it in a criminal case. And they’re giving them a chance to defending justice here said that they shouldn’t be allowed that opportunity. But the the they’re given, they’re given the sitting back for the trial judge to develop the record. But the fact that the trial judge wrote a 72 page opinion, at least because I see, I see references all the way up to page 72. So you couldn’t reference 72 pages, if it was only 20 pages, so I’ll see references. So it’s at least seven Ad pages, the trial judge is going to come up with the exact same outcome after the Commonwealth is allowed an opportunity to present the non existent evidence. And we’re going to be right back where we are with it at some point in the future. It’s just unfortunate. It’s going to take many more months because we have to go back and we have to have a trial, take evidence, and then the state will undoubtably appeal again, because the judge is going to decide the same thing he decided the first time. And this is going to go up on appeal. Again, it’s going to cost more money. But ultimately, this is going to end well for for for the people of Pennsylvania. And so I’m encouraged by this.

Andy 1:11:38
And what is so you said it’s going to end well for the people of Pennsylvania. Does that mean somebody with a conviction prior to the date you said they won’t have these registration requirements?

Larry 1:11:51
Well, this this was for, for I believe a person who had after that date they’ve got they pass they passed a two prong registry after the after the monasticism they passed act in and then I think act 29 doing this from memory act, they re re enacted, basically acted on but act 29. And they’ve tried to make it more or less punitive, rather than having to come in there trying to get away from the disability to restrain the of the registry by just one of the seven Kennedy Mendoza Martinez factors. And they said that since you got the report in telephonically, that it’s not the same and the judge just poopoo that I’ve highlighted for the judge. The trial judge just said that’s just nonsensical. You’re still under the under the the revised law you could petition after 25 years for removal. And the state argued, well, that’s enough. You get some due process of the judges but your life is ruined after 25 years, what good is being able to petition off after 25 years so, so that the Supreme Court called them Battle some of their bogus arguments in this in this. They and I love it every time the state gets called out for their duplicity, their nonsensical arguments.

Andy 1:13:10
What about the Pennsylvania piece that comes up every now and then about their reputation that they have something of a constitutionally protected thing of the reputation

Larry 1:13:20
that applies here but the the the Supreme Court said that that wasn’t fully developed everything that was that the trial judge ruled on. They sent it back for for for evidence, they relied entirely on the on the Apple II what’s his name here that we’re talking about? What?

Andy 1:13:41
Tor Tor sir the area

Larry 1:13:44
they relied on, they rely on giants to they relied on him entirely and his experts and the the state didn’t bring in any anyone. And now the state is saying that you got it wrong. So they’re giving the state a chance but I don’t see that changing. I think I had highlighted something on 13th. I was going to quote and see if I can figure out what it was. So nonetheless, we’re unable to conclude based upon the record currently before this court whether Apple II has sufficiently undermine the validity of the legislative findings supporting revised subchapter h registration notification provisions, especially in light of the contradictory scientific evidence cited by the Commonwealth during this appeal, which may refute Apple ease experts. It’s not the role of an appellate court, I’m still voting determine the validity of the reference studies based on mere citations rather than allowing the opportunity for the truth developed through a hearing on the merits of the evidence accordingly, a remand is appropriate to allow the parties to address whether a consensus has developed to call into question the relevant legislative policy decisions impacting offender’s constitutional rights. So so the record is just not enough as it existed, but, but there’s there’s a lot of good highlight highlighted portions in here, where The or the state got called out for their for their BS.

Andy 1:15:04
BS. Is that a legal term? No. Is

Unknown Speaker 1:15:08
it says the court opined it’s all about the trial judge I post deprivation process that provides for a hearing concerning the deprivation of fundamental right that occurs 25 years after the injury is a Kanto provision of no profit process at all. The court emphasize that during the intervening 25 years, the adult offenders will have effectively placed out of the job market ostracized from from Pro social resources and unduly stigmatized for the majority of their most productive years. I mean, this judge clearly gets it

Andy 1:15:39
definitely and then how long would it take before this ends back up at the for some sort of decision?

Larry 1:15:47
Well, it’s hard to say I would be surprised if it’s less than two years but that the judge is going to have to conduct a trial. And a state of course, it’s gonna wind that we we’ve got, they’re gonna drag their feet The judge depending on how busy the docket is, it’s going to have to schedule block out some time for trial. And then and then the the appeal will take whatever amount of time it takes to work its way back up to the court. So I was saying a couple of years before we have the outcome.

Andy 1:16:16
Final and in the meantime, it’s just a, it’s just in limbo, it runs the current state. Yes.

Larry 1:16:24
It is important to note so it’s, I keep highlighting, about declares to prove can override legislatures. When the legislature passes something is presumed constitutional. And when the legislature makes a finding, as I’ve highlighted on page 19, the course is we emphasize that only the clearest of proof of punitive effect can override the legislature stated intent that the statute be construed as non punitive. So so you you’re starting out with with the legislature gets the benefit of the doubt.

Andy 1:16:57
So you’re already and then you have to prove them wrong. And and does that have to be at a constitutional level? Because we can we can make bad laws that are stupid but constitutional to quote somebody? Yes. So you you would have to then prove to the court that what they are doing is then unconstitutional for them to have a judge push back and roll back?

Larry 1:17:18
Yes. You don’t

Andy 1:17:20
want to circle back they just say you can’t do that.

Larry 1:17:22
Yes, you people, people can completely misconstrued. The courts don’t exist to save you from a bad choice you Bay to elect people who passed bad laws from a policy perspective. The courts can only intervene when there’s a constitutional right being trampled. And I keep bringing up the 55 mile per hour speed limit. They could bring that back tomorrow if they wanted to. It’s a bad policy. We’ve learned that it would be detrimental to our economy and to society as a whole but we have the right to have a bad policy.

Andy 1:17:53
I gotcha. I Are we done with this one?

Larry 1:17:57
Yeah, we’re gonna finish within 90 minutes. Cuz cuz we I doubt it. Oh, do you have more?

Andy 1:18:03
I doubt it. Because there’s there’s a, there was an email question that I don’t remember where I pulled it from I think I pulled it from somebody asking a question to one of the one of the organizations. And it says, so I actually had it says what I’m interested in mostly is the rights to practice my Christian duties to the Church says I am interested in working with you in any way possible to foment desperately needed changes to these blanket policies, which judge and punish all by the canon of the worst. This violates our constitutional guarantee to due process. In my case in which there is no physical victim, I possessed 14 images, blah, blah, blah. I am forced to live under restrictions which among other things, infringes on my rights to practice my Christian duties to the church. I am writing a book to expose the horrific prison conditions and practices as well as to expose dozens of violations of the law and criminal procedures committed by the police prosecutor and judge in my case, is being fought in court. The state rules by fear not by common sense this Only a cursory overview of my position an issue and I would like to discuss it more in depth. Sex laws are largely based on fear and political pandering and ignore the driving force behind many of these crimes and pseudo Kratz. Please email me when you can blah, blah, blah. So my question to you is, in regards to this is when you get all of these restrictions put on you, doesn’t that infringe on your again, first amendment rights to be involved in church and your right to like, do all of those religious things? And hasn’t anybody tried to push on that button?

Larry 1:19:35
Well, and I know you hate it when I say this, but I don’t have all the information that would be necessary for this question. So we can we can develop it further. What we don’t know is whether he’s still being punished if if he’s, if the writer is still serving a part of his sentence, many of these under any supervision. You have fewer rights when you’re under supervision, than when you’re under supervision when you’re paying a debt to society, their friends into your space can be more now it’s not unlimited, but there can be more infringement. So we don’t know if he’s being punished, or if he’s just simply a part of the civil regulatory scheme. So it’d be helpful if we knew that. And it would be helpful if if we, if we, if he is being punished, it would be helpful if we would, if we could know if there’s anything that I can articulate, individually, you can impose a lot of conditions on offender supervision if they’re uniquely tailored, narrowly tailored, and unique to that offender. So the convicting offense, we’ve got the part about the 40 images. But what we don’t know is there’s the rule of four four be what we don’t know if there’s anything in his background that came out in his PSR of any onshore conduct, or anything he was under investigation for that was dismissed as a part of this case, to induce the plea. They, I mean, they sometimes tell you, your veterans vestigation for blah, blah, blah, and we’ll wrap that up and conclude there’ll be no prosecution. We don’t know if they could articulate an individualized reason for not allowing him go to a particular church. But what we do know is I can’t tell him he can’t go to church at all. If if he is being forbidden to worship, that’s going to be extremely problematic in terms of the Constitution. You have that right.

Andy 1:21:20
And Christian duties to the church. So I mean, he could be volunteering as the bookkeeper. And, you know, so you know, if the the 14 images were allegedly taken at the church, then I could see everybody tailoring all of things saying that you can’t do church, because you obviously have done something involving the church. But if you just happen to end up with them on your computer from random internet places, I have no understanding of how why they would then restrict you from church if that’s not related to it.

Larry 1:21:50
Well, but but let’s say again, the the Christian duties he’s being a little bit vague. What are those Christian duties that he’s talking about? Does he think he has a Christian duty to leave To find a school class that’s composed by lessons way, if we know that if he’s in trouble for images, I had to be under age because we don’t prosecute people for looking at adult porn. It’s contrary to my knowledge. So we know that we know that there is a relationship to underage individuals that that would that would constitute the base for the prosecution. So is his Christian duties is, is he talking about sweeping the floors when the church buildings empty? Or is he talking about having having more responsible role in the church? He’s a little unclear on that as well. So we don’t know what he’s asserting that he should have the right to do. And we don’t know whether he’s being punished or not if he’s simply being prohibited by the registry so that we would need to develop this a little bit further.

Andy 1:22:40
A friend of mine was even told that he couldn’t be the god I’m gonna forgive me for not knowing the term, the person that collects the tithing. I don’t know what the person’s title is, but he couldn’t even do that, because that could possibly expose them to interact with children. which, to me seems completely ridiculous because it’s not like you’re going to go collect tidings from Like a roomful of children there are going to be many other people in the room that would be not supervising you but be observing you doing that and if you tried to do something naughty with a child while nobody is looking there’s 100 people sitting in the room or thousand people sitting in the room with you that seems ridiculous.

Larry 1:23:17
Well, again as as that person may punished, or is that a registry requirement he’s he’s currently being punished and and and they now I agree with you that I think it’s ridiculous to say a person I think they would call that an usher and most most churches but at the same person can’t be an usher. You know, I think that would be ridiculous. But on the other hand, can you imagine you got to remember all this was political. Can you imagine? I mean, I’m guessing like that whatever church it is, there’s at least one cell phone camera, would you?

Unknown Speaker 1:23:50
totally okay,

Unknown Speaker 1:23:51
I can only imagine that if a cell phone camera where to capture a registered sex offender a PFR. Yep, going down. The aisle collecting tidings at a church and posted that on Facebook. What would be the reaction in that community? about that? What would put it? Would you think the congregation would be supportive?

Larry 1:24:15
Or do you think that that

Andy 1:24:16
I think we could find we could find enough that would go on either side of that you would find some that would want to roast the person and be like, No, we know his situation, and we love this person, and everything’s great. So continue on an f2 for being stupid. I can see we could get up both ways.

Larry 1:24:29
Now, Brad, does the transcript is he gonna be able to put spacebar in the transcript or should he put Facebook?

Andy 1:24:35
I think he should put space book because that’s what you said we should have it be exactly as you spoke it and not as a as a to be written.

Unknown Speaker 1:24:44
So but

Larry 1:24:46
but but you see the dilemma that the church the church would find themselves in, and the probation people would find themselves in because in many states that the fact that persons under supervision would be a public record. website have supervised offenders. So when the camera rolls into the probation department says, The citizens of this county would like to know why there’s a registered sex offender serving as an usher in the First Baptist Church, which the First Baptist Church may not be a good example. But you know, pull that out of thin air what what would what would the reaction be? of the community?

Unknown Speaker 1:25:23
I yeah,

Andy 1:25:24
I mean, if it comes out on on that time, yeah, then everything’s gonna go south probably pretty quickly. Because you know, like the sheriff and buts county for putting the signs out for keeping O’Shea from these terrible people. It’s going to be that same kind of reaction.

Larry 1:25:38
Yep, that’s, that’s what that’s what I’m afraid of. And I think that although I hate to sound like I’m defending these people, I’m not. You have to, you have to get in their head and understand how they come up with this stuff. That doesn’t make you agree with it helps you understand how they get to where they are.

Andy 1:25:59
It’s funny that I have conversations with people. And thank you, Larry, that you’ve actually, like, ruined many relationships that I have with people. Everything is political. Someone says, Well, I don’t like how this regulatory board does this. And I’m like, that’s politics because that regulatory board was put forth by some governor or some city thing. And without, you know, if we voted differently than those regulations, we’d be different. I’m not saying that they are good or bad. But I’m just saying if it’s because of how we vote, that we have these, you know, hair cut regulations, or real estate regulate, we have all of these things that are controlled by politics. Well,

Unknown Speaker 1:26:34
but as we sign off tonight, people explained this to me. Next episode. How is it that you can live in a country, this very system is designed, we live in a political system, we have parties, we live in a representative system where people have to go out and compete for votes and be attractive candidates. everything that’s happened, whether it be at the local level, in terms of whether you’re gonna get a sidewalk paved and a street paved versus going to get it on a load of gravel and a grading where you’re going to get a library built, or whether we’re going to get 18 more Nimitz class carriers or if they still build those, all those things are political decisions. All those things are whether we’re going to have an extra $600 a week in unemployment benefits. How is it that you can claim that you’re not political, but we live in a system where everything that happens is determined by a political process? Would you guys please explain it to me?

Andy 1:27:33
I wasn’t interested in it. 15 years ago, there, that’s the only thing out of this that I can explain to you.

Unknown Speaker 1:27:39
But our whole system, every every decision that’s made is political.

Andy 1:27:44
And some somewhere I don’t know where it is, but people immediately say something like, ah, I hate politics. And that’s just the end of it. And it just becomes almost like math and people either like math or they hate math. There’s probably not really very many people that are in between. And somehow politics ends up to be kind of sort of the same thing. They just hate all of it. And I’ve become kind of like fascinated by it. You know, I listen to politics, podcasts, like almost exclusively to just hear about all the meanderings and the jockeying back and forth and who says what, and whether this is constitutional or appropriate and whatnot. It’s pretty fascinating to me at this point. Thank you for ruining my life.

Unknown Speaker 1:28:22
Well, do you prefer an authoritarian regime to prefer a dictatorship? I mean,

Andy 1:28:25
what’s the alternative? I think North Korea would be way better. Kim Jong Un would be way better and he can just say, Nope, you messed up. I want to kill your family and your grandparents and then your kids do something like that. Sounds way better.

Unknown Speaker 1:28:37
How we run this nation is a battle of wills for the soul of the people to win the people over to your way of thinking or at least enough of them to prevail. That’s our system. I don’t know why that is so shocking to people. That’s what we do. We govern ourselves, my butt buds majority, as long as we don’t trample the constitutional rights of the minority our systems designed so that the minority does not get get totally trampled. But it is designed to do exactly what it does.

Unknown Speaker 1:29:09
I agree

Andy 1:29:10
I understand now. I didn’t understand then you should have talked to me like 15 years ago 20 years ago and I would have punched you right in the face were you and your you and your silly politics.

Larry 1:29:22
You people are too dumb.

Andy 1:29:24
Anything else? I’ve one shout out to make before we sign off.

Larry 1:29:28
I think we’ve done we’re done unless someone else in chat has another question. I see questions here.

Andy 1:29:37
I wanted to bring up that there’s a new podcast out there by Dr. Alyssa Ackerman and then also she is co hosted by Alexa Sardina. I hope I pronounced that right. I’ve been listening to them. They’re all they’re just getting started there. It’s called Beyond fear. It’s the sex crimes podcast. It’s pretty good. And I like it. And you will hear from two doctors about how the PF RS and that whole Industrial Complex around how it’s kind of garbage. And they are advocates on our side and they are talking from the PhD side of things.

Larry 1:30:10
Well, I will check that out on my podcast cache. So be sure that you will I actually Actually, I actually will.

Andy 1:30:18
Really Did you know, you got a new phone? Did you put a podcast app on there?

Larry 1:30:22
Of course I did. I’m moving up in the world.

Andy 1:30:25
Oh, my God. I’m shocked. I you know, prior to what did you What was your response when I asked you about doing a podcast?

Larry 1:30:32
I don’t remember. Your answer was like, what’s the podcast? Oh, that was years ago.

Andy 1:30:39
All right, well, we could sign off so find the podcasts you can find show notes at registry. matters.co. And, of course, like Jeff did, you can leave voicemail at 747-227-4477 email registry matters cast@gmail.com. And of course, we love all of our listeners, but I want to send out a special superduper thank you to our patrons. patreon.com slash registry matters. And I will tell you that tonight, we did some content before we started recording. And if you are not a patron, you will not be receiving the extra content this week. So you should go sign up even for a buck a month and you can get the Patreon extra that I’ll be releasing this week. And without that, Larry, I bid you adieu and I hope you have a splendid Saturday evening and I will talk to you soon.

Unknown Speaker 1:31:24
Thanks, Andy. Take care bye bye.


Transcript of RM132: I May Be Guilty of Murder, But It Was Justified

Listen to RM132: I May Be Guilty of Murder, But It Was Justified

Andy 0:00
registry matters as an independent production. The opinions and ideas here are that of the host and do not reflect the opinions of any other organization. If you have a problem with these thoughts fyp recording live from the super secret underground bunker transmitting across the internet. This is Episode 132 of registry matters. Larry, do you have the COVID from flying? I probably do. Oh my god. So we need to keep probably not even six feet. I don’t know that that would be sufficient. We need to keep maybe like 30 feet.

Larry 0:30
Well, what are we right now?

Andy 0:32
We’re across the road. It’s probably 15 or 20,

Larry 0:36
maybe 20. So all right, well, we’re doing the best we can

Andy 0:39
with what we’ve got. The acoustics in here are always amazing. And what is the super secret underground bunker?

Larry 0:45
It is a residential facility in the county of butts. So you people that are looking all you have to do is hit every residential unit and buts County, Georgia, there’s only like

Andy 0:57
30 people that live here

Larry 0:58
and you’ll eventually find Find us.

Andy 1:01
We have a handful of people in chat we have a voicemail messages to play we have possibly a 911 call to to play and a crap ton of articles so we are just going to go dive right Is it hot enough over here and humid enough for you here compared to back West?

Larry 1:18
No, it’s only in the low 90s what do people expect this time of year?

Andy 1:22
I would expect like pretty much this not too long ago it’s been very cool. So yeah, I would expect roughly this

Larry 1:29
so so who do we have in chat tonight? I can say hi to I don’t see him on my screen like I usually do.

Andy 1:34
We have a third Risa Oh Teresa and we have a Tammy and a will.

Larry 1:39
So All righty.

Andy 1:41
That is that is the big crowd this well this first article comes from the appeal and the title of it is Coronavirus in jails and prisons. And this article is I put this at the top just to give us a quick little update on where things are, as far as Is it still spreading rapidly. In prison, is it you know, so this just more or less just like an update of where we stand on things. So Larry, where do we stand up?

Larry 2:07
Well, it’s I didn’t I didn’t read this article. But I would imagine from what I’m hearing in the news, it’s, it’s, it’s escalating a lot of institutions.

Andy 2:16
Yeah. What the article says it is, it hasn’t abated is pretty much the answer. It’s like the worst conditions that you could possibly be in is to be in prison. More cases, more people getting infected, they’re not able to clean they’re not able to separate they’re not able to get masks. It’s just it’s pretty awful. It’s a pretty, pretty dismal situation, if you happen to be locked up, you know, much like the situation you described in the for that Riot if you were there, if you got out on the 28th versus the 29th. In your state.

Larry 2:47
Yes, well, this doesn’t take any particular level of genius to figure it out when you have when you have people clustered together and in conditions that are not less than ideal when weather pandemic, sanitation and cleanliness is less than ideal. And there’s so many things that work against it. Those of listen to the podcast we talked about erawan are early on in the, in the pandemic, your laundry is very restricted. At least at most facilities I’m familiar with, you don’t, you don’t just go to the washing machine and do your laundry, you you have a laundry round, picks up laundry once a week or twice a week at best, and you’re limited to your access to laundry. Water is designed to prevent flooding of cell blocks and housing units. So waters restricted in terms of it flows with with a time limits of anywhere from a couple of minutes to maybe 30 seconds. Yeah. And so you’re constantly having to push the button so they they’ve the flow is not is not strong and most most situations they they’re trying to conserve water resources. So you got all these things working, guess you and then all the proximity of people being close together. Other than the lack of the lack of

Unknown Speaker 4:03
cleaning supplies,

Andy 4:05
hey, you know, there’s something funny that you just reminded me of of thinking about some of them like that the faucet will flow kind of in an upward direction and then just sort of spill out. Yes. And I’ve seen that in some like in the more elegant kind of high end, hoity toity kind of designs of things where it’ll like fill into almost like an aqueduct and then like you have this flowing water to wash your hands, but it’s definitely like a more volumous amount of water. But you know, it’s just it’s like trickle that it would drive you absolutely bonkers.

Larry 4:35
That’s why I’m prepared for this time. I only had to adjust one of my rooms that I stayed and the other one was adequate.

Andy 4:43
Well, that’s good to hear. Did you have any, any battles with any critters? critters, what type of critters insect types of critters, undesirables?

Larry 4:53
I haven’t had any battles with any that I can think of. No.

Unknown Speaker 4:55
Okay. I wasn’t sure if you would want to bring up talking about any sleeping critters. Now, I

Larry 5:00
don’t know anything about that.

Andy 5:01
Okay. All right, then. Well anyway, so the prison COVID situation is still still dismal, dismal, dismal. That is, pretty much all we really even have to say about as if you were in prison at this time, it would be I can’t do it. I can’t even imagine how people are like hanging out in the day room or something, they probably have T shirts like wrapped around their faces. People probably get twitchy about being near anybody else. So it’s just it’s got to be awful.

Larry 5:26
Well, we would have to be losing lives that didn’t have to be lost. But people that have had they been taken out of the environment, they would help survive. Of course, everyone’s not going to die that gets gets the virus we know that. But we also know that that that was at the vulnerable population, that the the rate of severe risk reported by looking for the words the severity, increases with with age and with with medical with with a pre existing conditions. If you look at the number of people or died of many Give them have pre existing conditions. Right? And, and we we know that we’ve got the prisons particular, and the states that have three strikes laws where we have a lot of elderly people who have have not been able to be released because they’re not eligible to be released. And we’re going to keep them till they die. And I guess, in that regard, it relieves the state’s problem a little bit sooner.

Andy 6:23
You know, we have an article coming up talking about that where someone said, I don’t care and that person had a lot of pre existing conditions. So maybe he he got what he deserved. Maybe he shouldn’t have been fleeing from the place. I don’t see a problem now. Absolutely not. Well, let’s uh, let’s jump over to another article. It’s from the appeal as well. And this is Minneapolis city council members announced intent to disband the police department invest in proven community led public safety. I’ve been hearing a whole lot of things about this one and and maybe this even ties into I think it was a city in New Jersey. Oh, God, I can’t think of the name of it. Do you know off the top of your head, it’s on the tip of my tongue. They did a community policing thing in New Jersey. And But anyway, this is a week rarely spend a whole lot of time because even you and I had a conversation earlier in the week about who has the authority to do this. This is the city council has a veto proof majority saying this is what’s going to happen. And please tell me that you can explain this better than I would understand

Larry 7:27
what particular aspect

Andy 7:29
how so so the city council can then just go, Hey, Mayor, we don’t want the police to be this way. And you’re going to follow our committee of veto proof.

Larry 7:41
Well, it would be a veto would work would work just like it would work in a state or federal level. Say on a non member council I’m I’m pulling this out of air because I don’t know the number sides of the Council. But if the city charter requires a two thirds majority and if it were a non member Council, if you had six councillors you would Just override the mayor’s veto. So you’ve passed the ordinance. The mayor would issue his veto. The bear would plead with people to sustain his veto. And he would be looking for four votes, because because if it took a two thirds override, override, six votes would be the magic number. So he would be looking at his magic number would be four. So he would be making all kinds of promises to prevent the override. And when they vote to override the veto, then the legislation the ordinance would become law over his objection. And it would be as if it had been signed.

Andy 8:33
This I think there’s a lot of confusion in the way that this is worded that that they’re saying that we’re going to quote unquote, dismantle the police department, which is probably true in the literal sense, but not true in the actual sense of not talking about having anarchie with no sort of law enforcement agency. But in the end of one of the paragraphs that says we can resolve confusion over $20 grocery transaction without drawing a weapon or pulling out handcuffs, that You could you don’t you don’t deploy the police for every different every different difficult kind of transaction that you would have the people from, you know, I was driving up here and I saw six police officers pull head somebody pulled over. I don’t know if this person had some sort of vest on that would explode. I don’t know if the person was just having a temper tantrum. But did they need six police officers to handle the interaction that you could build in different units to handle domestic abuse traffic tickets, you know, and have Okay, fine. We have some sort of serious threat that we do need weapons and we can call in that department to handle it. I think that’s what they’re actually trying to describe.

Unknown Speaker 9:41
Well, I think they’ve they’ve had some ideas about unifying the the Hennepin County law enforcement, which is the sheriff’s department. I don’t think they have a county police department. That seems to be a distinctly Southern thing where they have a county police department and a county sheriff’s department but I think this is our guests and like This week, there, they’re looking at one option to bring bring in a unified enforcement from from the county, but they’re not going to they’re not going to go to having no law enforcement. But what this would be it would be we’ve we’ve given up on being able to reform the department that we have the existing apparatus, it just needs to be dismantled. And that’s exactly what needs to happen. In many cases. It’s very difficult to reform an existing bureaucracy. I think if you if one since the title of this podcast, we could talk about businesses that have failed because they were not able to transform themselves. Certainly, this is not just a public sector thing. It I would argue that Eastern Airlines doesn’t exist anymore because it was unable to reform itself to reflect the competitive nature of a change industry. And the power structure within the union within the bushiness within the flight attendants union whether the, the the airline pilots union, they just were not able to adapt to the We had gone from from the era of the Civil Aeronautics Board setting fares to a competitive where the airlines were able to set their own fares and it was competition supply and demand at the cost structure that had been built up when there was protection of fares and protection of routes and the only thing you could compete on was basically food and and how you pampered your passengers and how pretty your flight attendants were, which they call stewardess in those days, it was a whole different world and it was they were they were not able to change now the consequences weren’t that people were dying and being tased and beat up. But the the the culture was too entrenched to change. And that’s what we have here with many apples are many police departments. They are not able to recognize and to effectuate the changes that are needed culturally, they’re just not able to do it. They’ve got too much of the too many of the old guard. They’ve done it this way too long. And the union is too strong. And we have a union article coming up later about how unions stop effort the police you just saw me effort stoked up the reform. And it may be that this banning is the only option.

Andy 12:07
Um, can you backtrack just a little bit that you brought up something about there could be a county police and county sheriff. I to me I use those words interchangeably.

Unknown Speaker 12:18
Well, in the state of Georgia, many counties here in this state have they have the county police. So if you pick up the phone you would call if you’re in Clayton County, you would call the Clayton County Police Department, but Clayton County also has a sheriff’s department and the Sheriff’s Department has responsibilities including running the jail serving civil processes, summonses and and they they they don’t typically engage in day to day law enforcement operations where they have a county police department. That’s distinctly Georgia I have never lived in another state where there’s county police but they are all over the state of this particular county. I’m not sure buts county does have Police Department I don’t think they do. But the next county up Henry County does. Clayton County does Fulton County does DeKalb County does Cobb County does they all have county police? Well, when you have county police, then the sheriff’s office backs off of law enforcement and they would serve a backup role if the Clayton County police requested them if the city of Riverdale which is in Clay County Jonesboro, those counties said we need help. They’re fully certified law enforcement and they can provide law enforcement. They can do things but they typically don’t because they’ve got city they got municipal police within the city. So they’ve got a county police department that does basic law enforcement.

Andy 13:36
That’s pretty confusing. what’s confusing about it Oh, I just the delineation of like, again, I realize that they have a separation of powers that this one does this one thing but like you just said you’ve never lived anywhere that has these overlapping things with just a different name. So it’s just

Unknown Speaker 13:52
well I’m not sure what that is distinctly Georgia because I’ve not lived in the United States, but I didn’t see it in New Mexico. I didn’t see it in Michigan. I didn’t see it in Colorado. I haven’t seen it and other places you know that they have. They have a county sheriff’s department and then they have the city police or there’s incorporated cities but I’ve not seen what they refer to all over this state is the county police but but they do have them here and they probably do have up in other states. It’s just I haven’t lived in enough states to do the comparison. But it’s not that complicated because they they they define what the responsibilities are in Georgia even though the sheriff doesn’t do or they have kind of police although the sheriff typically doesn’t go out and do road patrol. They can’t they could if they wanted to. Right. The the sheriff is technically the chief law enforcement officer of any county in Georgia, and the sheriff could put a patrol division on the street but the sheriff chooses not to because it’s the county commissioners have funded the county police department for the purpose of providing basic law enforcement the the the sheriff’s department is not going to go out and duplicate what’s already being done but but the sheriff sheriff’s This state particular can do almost anything they want to do.

Andy 15:03
So, yeah. And then also you just said something that you don’t know a certain thing. I thought you knew everything.

Larry 15:08
Everything. It’s worth knowing. Oh,

Andy 15:12
I didn’t realize it was okay. And who’s the arbiter of what is worth knowing? I am. Oh, okay. I thought

Larry 15:18
but I wouldn’t be surprised if New York doesn’t every New York probably has county police I bet if Charles where he could tell us that but but I know it’s it’s very common here in this state. I wonder if some place like Pennsylvania that has like counties and boroughs that they could have. I know. I know. Marilyn does because I’ve heard about the government county police. Yeah, so I thought I don’t think it’s distinctly Georgia as long so I didn’t mean it that way. But it’s it’s it’s not widespread that you’re seeing in every single state.

Andy 15:47
Okay, then let’s move over to what is this loss of law 360 calm and Hey, man, this is some bipartisan support that you always grill me on and say, oh, here’s some of your bipartisan support. You say a very contempt of tone. But this is a quartet of senators has put together trying to make it so that our people and those our people are the ones that have any sort of felony could apply for the payroll Protection Program or the paycheck protection program. The funny thing about this though, Larry, is that the winters that when does the enrollment for this thing, stop? versa? It’s June 30. I can’t imagine Congress doing anything to get anything through here it is the one of the 13 so they’re gonna have what’s at 27 days to put get their act together, and then someone’s going to have the wherewithal to get down to their local office to fill out the paperwork for this. Wouldn’t it be 17 days isn’t 1723 1770 See, don’t do math on a podcast.

Larry 16:49
But But well, and I don’t mean to imply that all bipartisanship is bad what I what I’m trying to stress is just because it’s bar bipartisan does it necessary Sara Lee make it good.

Andy 17:02
I think you just want to poke fun at me.

Larry 17:03
Well, I do because we assume mistakenly that something by person magically translates to good. You don’t you don’t just I mean that Applejack was bipartisan. International Megan’s Law was bipartisan, a lot of things are bipartisan, that doesn’t translate to magically good. So you you, you could you can have good public policy derived that is bipartisan. You can have good public policy result from something that’s highly partisan, because that’s the way the system is designed, you’re supposed to have a winner. And you the person the side of an issue that can muster the majority votes, usually has to compromise with with the minority to get enough votes cobble together to represent a majority. And throughout that process of compromise, you often can have some very good public policy, but just because it has bipartisan support doesn’t necessarily make it good. This is something that would in fact, be good if it were to happen.

Andy 18:00
Yeah, but it doesn’t matter because they’re going to have two weeks to get attached to it. And they’ve already spent 500 billion of the 600 billion that’s allowed for in the program. I no one, no one is going to qualify for this. There’s not enough time and not enough money left for anybody to get anything

Larry 18:18
said if it comes to pass, it would be a good thing. Yeah, yeah, I’m with you. I just like this is like too little too late. The ship has already sailed. And all that hokey pokey stuff. Well, if we were to, for example, if we were to have a second flare up, and they were had to pump more money into if we have, it would be something good to set the foundation for later that we don’t automatically disqualify people because it’s something that they’ve done in their past. Do you think that something like this would then carry over it? Could we could that we could be having a debate right now. Well, not this now. But in this this era, we could be having sort of a debate about is it fair to penalize people from having access to taxpayer subsidized Services What? What? They’re all up it up. I mean, they speak for employers for God’s sakes.

Andy 19:05
Yeah, that’s kind of one of the reasons why it really makes no sense that even in the article, it says we should celebrate folks who have done exactly what society asked of them. They turned away from crime, they started a business to support themselves in their families and contributed to their communities. And estimated one in three American adults has a criminal record. And because people with records often have trouble finding employment, many of them have gone on to start their own businesses after they’ve paid for their mistakes. So then wouldn’t we want to reward them and go, Hey, man, thank you for getting your act together and not committing more crime. Oh, by the way, we have this pandemic, when did you shut down FSU you don’t qualify for any money?

Larry 19:39
Well, all what you said is true, but it’s not only a few and a few employees of that true. Totally, totally.

Andy 19:44
Yeah. So a few for getting employed by someone who went to prison. So that’s tragic, super tragic.

Larry 19:52
I don’t understand that type of logic I would want. Like I say over and over again. I would want these employers to survive because If we’re to have this rebound that that we’re hoping for people need employers need to be able to survive and put people back to work so that taxes can start being paid so we can stop running this deficit this year is going to be my prediction says we were at a trillion baseline before COVID-19. I’m predicting, but so between a four and a $5 trillion deficit this year.

Andy 20:22
Yeah, I think I heard 30 by the end of the year, maybe.

Unknown Speaker 20:25
What are you talking about to accumulate national debt? I’m talking I’m talking about this annual deficit for this year, we were at a baseline trillion dollars, which had doubled from what they had been inherited from the Obama years, the baseline budget deficit was a trillion. And what when you start adding up all these programs was a 2.2. For this 800 billion for that, you’re going to add at least 4 trillion of spending, but that doesn’t tell the whole story. You also have the decline of revenue. all federal revenues are going to be down. If you’ve got 40 million people not working. You’re not getting Social Security and Medicare coverage. contributions, right? If you’ve got 40 million people that are not working, you’re not getting the federal unemployment tax, which is a very modest tax, but you’re not getting that money. And yet you’re you’re adding trillions of dollars of spending. If we don’t have a $5 trillion deficit this year, that is September 30, I will be amazed if we don’t have a $5 trillion deficit.

Andy 21:21
And those those programs, at least the Social Security one is funded by the current contributions. If I understand how things work,

Larry 21:28
well, it’s funded by the current contribution to the extent I cover and then we draw down from the trust fund, to the extent those contributions don’t cover. So. So it’s a combination of that and the trust fund is money that has been accumulating running surpluses for the last 30 years.

Andy 21:47
I understand anything else here that you want to go over before we cover the next really amazing, outstanding article?

Larry 21:55
No, I’m just hoping that that takes employers actually do get to participated the PDP and I’m hoping that people jobs are able to be saved.

Andy 22:04
Yes, without a doubt that’s totally, totally true. But over at the Tennessee part of the USA Today network, Tennessee wants to put a man to death despite evidence of racial profiling during trial. Count. What is there’s a there’s a Supreme Court case, and I hope you’ll remember the name of it where they decided this that you can’t use race as jury selection. I believe that was bad. So that sounds that sounds at least close to what I remember. Well, Google

Larry 22:33
Google bats and somebody and I believe it’s the Batson case,

Unknown Speaker 22:36
and they’re rearranging furniture upstairs there.

Larry 22:39
It’s actually the icemaker

Andy 22:41
that is a very, very loud icemaker. It sounds like it’s dumping ice on the floor.

Larry 22:46
Well, the pan was empty. So that’s what it’s doing. But I think they emptied the pan out, while for some reason.

Andy 22:51
Oh, it probably had COVID on it. Um, but this is a man who has spent a truckload of time is he He was convicted in 87 for a murder. And he’s not. I mean, he’s Brown, but he’s not like a black man like a traditional, and I hope I don’t sound offensive there, but he’s not like, you know, the typical like black person that we have in the United States. He is from another country, and he got convicted, and there was like, lots of racial biases. And and so far there was only one black person on the jury, and, and so forth. Anyway, so what else is going on here?

Larry 23:30
Well, the state is arguing that the trial was fair enough. But But if if it was I think it was Batson but yes, it was bad. Yeah. The the Supreme Court said that the prosecution can’t use their peremptory challenges. And those were the challenges that don’t require a reason to be stated. Did you to say, You’re excused. Thank you Have a great day. And prosecutors would do that to to exclude minorities. So if you were in a county that was was 80%, white 20% black and you had a black defendant with the jury, the number of people in the pool would be very small to begin with, because the black population is very small mechanic. So the prosecutor would have enough peremptory challenges. They would just excuse anybody that was in the in the pool and end up with an all white jury. And the Supreme Court said, You can’t do that. Right? If you’re a prosecutor, if you’re a prosecutor, you can’t do that. To have to have a on all majority jury. You just can’t do that. But they it wasn’t the case back then.

Andy 24:32
Right. So but then what would that not be brought forward to now terms?

Unknown Speaker 24:38
Well, I’m not really sure. You know, that does he get does he get a new trial? I didn’t get to dive into this to find out exactly what all the states arguing. But the point that you can make clearly is that if we were to adjust society that we claim to be, we would want to eliminate this as being an issue. If he didn’t get affected. trial because the prosecution excused all the jurors that they thought would be objective. When you’ve got to put someone to the electric chair, which that’s not why they’re doing but if you’re going to take someone’s life, wouldn’t you want to make sure they got a fair process?

Andy 25:14
I would think so. And I would also think that like we would not want to have that black guy

Larry 25:20
we don’t seem to worry about international opinion when it comes to us. We we don’t we? We are quick to criticize other nations. But when it comes to human rights issues like young people in the registry like what we have 11 Ted dine years on as the youngest but

Andy 25:35
Yeah, something like that.

Larry 25:36
What when, when we get criticized, we just wait it’s kind of bought off.

Andy 25:40
So we will move over to the next article back to the appeal. This is a I can never be more grateful. After nearly 35 years, Willie Mae Harris is released from prison. Harris is now 72 in blind and had been serving a life sentence for shooting the shooting death of her husband I mean, she said it abused her for years last month. The Arkansas parole board agreed to her. She’s super excited about getting out of prison after being in prison since 1985. So what’s that? 35 years? That’s crazy. That’s a long time.

Larry 26:10
Well, we’re gonna have to give credit to the governor there. A saw Hutchinson agreed that the time had come. And he had previously said no, but he changed his mind. And, as I have said repeatedly, and I’ll say again, he has the political capital to do this because he will not be vilified by any democrat politicians for letting her out. When you see these republicans leave office,

Unknown Speaker 26:38
former Arkansas governor that ran for President Mike Huckabee, you remember he did a whole bunch of clemency.

Andy 26:43
I remember the name mike huckabee

Larry 26:45
do. I think they became a media sensation. I think it was Fox. I don’t know if he’s still there. But then the governor of Mississippi haley barbour, they do these things and they take very little criticism. I think the attorney General now, I can’t imagine Mississippi Attorney General will be will be a Democrat. But I think he got a little bit of grief from the Attorney General. But when Haley Barbara was on the way out the door, but Isla, for whatever his reasons are, he did the right thing. He is in prison long enough, and she’s not going to be a threat to society. And he went ahead and made it possible for her to be released and she’s eternally grateful. Now she’s only got 35 years of parole to do so she’s she’s off parole when she’s 107.

Andy 27:28
That’s, that’s nothing man. She should be able to do that, like with her hands tied behind her back. Wait, hang on, I probably shouldn’t use that metaphor

Larry 27:35
that says Hart Harris will be on parole for 35 years in the age of 107. According to her attorney, that’s crazy.

Andy 27:42
Well, I do struggle with those kind of things that she claims that she was abused by her husband and that at some point, like the tipping point just came in she she smoked him, and then goes to prison for first degree murder and given all of the truths now about so much domestic abuse and whatnot, that it’s just probably another thing of the times that, of course, you know, it’s almost like if you’re a woman in a marriage back in those days that you were just considered the property and there was no reason for you to shoot your husband for beating you like you should just take it.

Larry 28:18
Well, that says in the article, though, there was evidence that could have proved the abuse. Harris’s attorney that was, who were court appointed, presented, none of it. Harris was the only person to testify and her defense,

Andy 28:31
and it was a court appointed attorney. Right. So she had a public defender.

Larry 28:34
Yeah. And I don’t know, that was the reason why they didn’t do anything. It’s it’s the common belief if they have a public defender that the POA defender doesn’t do it because they’re a POA defender. There could be strategic reasons, but it is it is bizarre, but nonetheless, I’m not even getting into that. 35 years and she’s 72 in blind. Mm hmm. It’s It’s time folks.

Andy 28:57
Yeah, she probably can’t do much damage on the street.

Larry 29:01
So governor Hutchinson did the right thing,

Andy 29:03
outstanding. Over at the New York Times we say how police unions became such powerful opponents to reform efforts. Do you know Larry, that there are certain people that they have an appearance and they like it’s almost like their job is then picked for them because of the way they look? This dude that is the head of the police union looks like one of those people that is in charge of a police unit. half a decade after a spat of officers involved deaths inspired widespread protests, many police unions are digging into defend members. I think this was more or less about the don’t cross the blue line. Is that the right is that the right expression where the police officers won’t turn on themselves? Yes. And as you know, so somebody gets accused of doing something wrong, then no one will say yeah, I saw I’m doing the bad thing. And the police shootings I’ve heard a whole bunch of podcasts about this lately, of how much the police unions with the contractor associations and how they fill out paperwork and they can’t get fired. And their records are sealed from public scrutiny. I can’t see how this survives. I just can’t see how it survives. Well, it’s an amazing thing that police union, I don’t think they’re like traditional us union membership is pathetically low in this country. The unions exist are largely very weak compared to their heyday. But yet the police unions are strong, almost as strong as ever.

Larry 30:30
People that are that are union leaders telling me that they’re not a typical union. And I can’t explain the difference but, but it’s amazing that they have the power they do. And part of that power is the fear that they instill. They have the ability to scare the hell out of you about bad things that we talked about last week on the podcast, about what they will do to make you fear any changes, they will convince you that you’re not safe anymore,

Andy 30:53
right. And do I watched something today that I can’t remember where this was, and I just, I just watched it on YouTube. So take it with a grain of salt but cameras like 13 cameras inside of police precinct reports come in of looting and rioting and XYZ town whichever one was and all the cops just sit there they sat there for hours just twiddling their thumbs because like, you know, they’re getting so much some so much pressure that they’re overreacting. Well, we’re going to under react now see how you like that?

Unknown Speaker 31:19
Yeah, they’re teaching us a lesson.

Andy 31:21
Right? And I hope that the framework in many and Minnesota then applies out Yeah, we’ll teach you a lesson to like you don’t have to hit everybody with billy clubs that that that that crosses a saw another video of someone. He said some pejorative to the police and they came over and just squirt it in the face with their pepper spray.

Larry 31:40
Well, they they’ll 57 officers in Buffalo. You know, initially, we’re hearing that they resign they actually only resigned from the emergency response. Yes, correct. And, and they’re still collected their six figure salary. A former police chief, I had saved the clip with the intention of playing it. He said if They resign. And they don’t accept the OSI, most of the Chiefs given them, that they should be fired from the force altogether. Sure.

Andy 32:06
That doesn’t sound like that big of a stretch.

Larry 32:09
But But yeah, they’re they were making a statement. Again, that’s designed to scare people. We just won’t have an emergency response team. Will he’ll show you people, hey, if we’re not going to back us, we just won’t do this anymore.

Andy 32:21
And then there’s a another paragraph in here. It says politicians tempted to cross police unions have long feared being labeled soft on crime by the unions, and those are big voting blocks, and they would have a lot of bully pulpit public Is that the right term to even use in this case?

Unknown Speaker 32:34
they would they would definitely have access to, to almost non stop media coverage if the police leadership is telling you that the community is in danger that is going to be covered. That’s news. I tell people when when you have officials, whether you agree with them not saying that things are dangerous, what do you expect them to do? And well, we don’t really think it’s all that dangerous, which we won’t cover that they’re going to cover you

Andy 33:01
Got i don’t i don’t know how you fix that one. I mean, cuz you know, like Larry crasner. So the guy that got voted in and Philly to be a progressive da, how he seems to have won on the platform of something more close to equal and justice and whatnot. And he gets trashed in the media pretty regularly. How do you combat that? They have that kind of platform.

Larry 33:26
I think education the I mean, as far as the media, they’re going to cover it. Because it’s news.

Andy 33:33
Yeah, of course. And I mean, that’s kind of their job, and they’re driven by rating.

Larry 33:37
But But would you like them to be the arbiter and said, Well, we don’t think we do that the holiday we’ve done our analysis. Well, well, the community thought that much danger. Well, we’re not gonna we’re not gonna report that they’re going to report it. If the police say this community is in jeopardy because of these reforms. They’re going to report that it is news. Yeah. But you say Are they going to be the arbiter? They’re already the arbiter they pick and choose? No, of course not. This is a newsworthy thing. So they’re going to cover it, but they pick and choose other things that they don’t cover. That is correct. But talk

Andy 34:05
this thousand people that get shot by police every day. They don’t cover all of that.

Larry 34:09
They don’t cover all of them. But if we didn’t cover it, we wouldn’t know thousands of people got shot, would we?

Andy 34:13
I think that happens to be from the Washington Post, like collecting statistics, because there’s another article we have coming up that there’s no centralized information on what our local police forces do.

Larry 34:24
But in your local community, you know, when your police are killing people, sure, yeah. Wait, we know when every time the police shooting in Albuquerque we’d up which used to have different levels of reaction, but we know, but I’m saying if the police are saying that these reforms are going to make this community unsafe, that is news, and it’s going to be reported.

Andy 34:48
Yeah. Hmm. I don’t know. I just this one. I how do we have a group of people that carry the the weapons They have so much access to the media, and they get to tell us how safe or unsafe we are. And then we make policy decisions based on what they’ve said without necessarily any evidence behind it because they didn’t report anything because there’s no reporting requirement. Well,

Larry 35:16
well, I mean, if people want to stand up and say the community is safe, they’ll report all that. Also, they’ll say, well, the district attorney says the community is safe, or are for kid city councilors say the community is safe, but they’re not going to to ignore when the police are saying that bad things are going to happen. They’re going to report that that’s news.

Andy 35:36
Sure. Well, then let’s move over to another New York Times article, Democrats to propose broad bill to target police misconduct and racial bias. How in the world, Larry, can those federal government people tell my local police department how they should or should not act?

Unknown Speaker 35:55
Well, literally they can’t. But but that what what’s a federal grant Has his money which local communities want. And therefore, in order to, to get the money, they can attach conditions of local communities. But as far as telling the local community, how to run the police department, they really can’t they can say to meet federal standards, just like they do with that emotion act. In order to meet federal policing standards. If you want your burn grant, you will do these things. You will you will, you will act in the following fashion but they don’t have to do it. They can say you know what, you get your burn grants, and you can do whatever you want to with it. I make that I’ve made that argument many times. It’s about the school lunch program. I heard so much criticism about the National School Lunch Program standards about how Michelle Obama was dictating no she wasn’t. She was

Andy 36:42
saying you get this batch of money if you

Unknown Speaker 36:44
follow these guidelines, if you want the federal government to feed your local school children, which that’s the bulk of where all the lunch money comes from is from the National School Lunch Program, federal funds. If you would prefer that the federal government feed your kids, rather than you take it your own response. Ability local level and you feeding your own kids, then you have to beat these Sanders. But you can tell the federal government, we don’t want to die, but your National School Lunch money, and you can feed the kids, whatever you want to feed them.

Andy 37:11
And do you think the sheriff in Bucks County is going to turn down that money? I don’t think everybody

Larry 37:16
law enforcement wants all they can get

Andy 37:18
that. Tell me this one of the thing, are these the same people that bitch about any sort of government hands out handouts,

Unknown Speaker 37:24
they typically are the people who preach self reliance and individual responsibility. But say they have an argument. I mean, I’ll go into what the argument, the argument is, well, we pay our taxes to the federal government way by our federal taxes, and all we do, it’s getting so mad money back that we’ve paid. And if we didn’t pay the money to the federal government, we wouldn’t be asking for that money back. That’s their answer.

Andy 37:50
I guess it would be required to pay it regardless of them receiving the benefit.

Unknown Speaker 37:54
Well, that’s the silliness of the whole thing because regardless of how the federal money is allocated, you’re Gotta have federal taxes. So whether we allocate it to law enforcement or to national defense or to whatever programs, that there’s going to be federal taxation, but but they justified they would admit that they’re being hypocritical. They will say, well, we’re paying our weird title to our show the federal buddy. Well, we should just stand down and let the other states get it I’ll be wearing titled hard cut. That’s what they’ll say.

Andy 38:26
And and I wonder, then, can we we’ve covered the article a number of times where the women get shackled when they’re giving birth. Why do we have to make certain kinds of things like chokeholds? and knees in the neck? Why do we have to make any sort of law that would actually target those kinds of things? Shouldn’t that already be like, we ought not do that?

Unknown Speaker 38:49
You would think so. But I’ve come to the conclusion when I see so much, that there’s not enough internal discipline within within law enforcement to do For those things on their own initiative, I would never like to see children. And when I say child, I’m judging by their size and strength that if a person is 12 years old and the way 190 pounds and they can bench 300 pounds that I don’t really consider their child emotionally, but they’re not a child in terms of physically, hope and I see a crying, nine year old, being handcuffed with hard steel handcuffs, when the nine year old looks like they might could lift 4050 pounds if they’re lucky. Yeah, and that the average adult could hold the nine year olds hands until they completely exhausted themselves from running out, you know, when a child is fighting how you can hold the child, and they’ll eventually completely exhausted go limp. If you do it long enough, they will completely run out of energy. Sure, it may take a while. But I wonder why would you handcuff that child? Mm hmm. But they do. Mm hmm. So that so since they’re not able to impose their own values and say I wouldn’t want my child put in handcuffs at this age. I’m not going to put handcuffs No, sir Chief, I’m not going to bank up this child. I’ll take a neck scarf and I’ll tie his hands but I’m not going to put hard handcuffs on. That’s what we do with adult criminals. But but they won’t. Nobody will say No sir. Or no, ma’am. Right. The chief doesn’t have to be BIA, sir, but nobody will say no, we’re not doing that. So it says

Andy 40:19
so it says here it says the federal police misconduct statute currently makes it a crime for an officer to willfully violate an individual’s constitutional rights, meaning prosecutors must prove an officer acted with the intention of depriving the person of their rights democrats plan to propose lowering that standard of criminal intent to knowingly or with reckless disregard disregard excuse me and they say that the this change is likely to face opposition from police unions and their allies. What would be Tell me what so the willfully thing like I think I kind of get that one but I was willfully versus knowingly or with reckless disregard. Disregard I keep saying that wrong.

Larry 40:57
Okay. Well, what was reckless reckless was Be that that, that you’re being careless but you didn’t have a state of mind of actually wanting to cause the harm your negligence and and carelessness caused the harm. And so it’s a much lower standard to prove that someone saw someone was was was willful is a tough standard approach.

Andy 41:19
Is that almost like beyond reasonable doubt? Oh, well stass so just just like armchair judge for a minute if you would, you know, back Monday morning quarterback for me, that the the situation with George Floyd, the dude, like, where would where would you interpret that that to be did he willfully violate the guy’s constitution or did he with reckless disregard?

Larry 41:40
Oh, I’d love to have the reckless as a standard if you I know

Andy 41:44
that you would love that. But do you think that he willfully did it? Or do you think that that threshold is still like kind of murky that you could kind of argue that he, like, he didn’t do it intentional,

Unknown Speaker 41:56
that’s exactly what this defense is going to be. And that’s what makes makes fright frightens me about the the prosecutor upping the charges because the difficult standard, I want to conviction, and I’ll look a person in the eye and say, We want this person convicted of something. I don’t want to risk a not guilty verdict. So I don’t want to reach higher than what what the state. Okay when you have to show I don’t believe we have any evidence unless he had kept a diary somewhere that that, that he had been using force on people and he hoped that they died in his diary reflected that they didn’t. So I don’t think we’re going to be able to show that he wanted that outcome. But we can show that with basic police training, that you would know that depriving a person of oxygen could be could have has the potential to be to be very detrimental to their health. So you don’t want to over prosecute you you want to conviction. I would much rather him go to jail for seven years. And then go free. Okay, because he gets to be a convicted felon, he gets to serve time, he gets to be away from his family and he gets to do some reflection on his behavior, he gets to come out and face not having a career, he gets to have to compete for a job, and he gets to be labeled.

Unknown Speaker 43:17
And he won’t qualify for the payroll protection program.

Unknown Speaker 43:20
And, and so I’m not concerned about him spending decades and decades in prison, I want him to be convicted of something. Because I want the message to go out to officers because we’re not gonna have a overnight change in police culture, I want the evidence to go out to officers that if you do this type of behavior, you will be charged and you will be convicted of something. And if you don’t like the idea of going to prison, and so we get back to I would prefer with with with the prosecution for the likelihood of conviction of forbore certain, and with the these reduce standards that they’re talking about, but that’s a bunch of liberal democrats and you gotta remember the Liberal Democrats. Don’t get The US Congress who controls the Senate, Republican, particularly who Mitch McConnell, yep.

Andy 44:06
And the most I he is the worst human being on the planet. Maybe not the worst human being on the planet. But Kim Jong Un is worse, but this dude is way up there. Top 10 he’s definitely

Larry 44:17
definitely has.

Andy 44:19
He has power. He knows how to use his power. Like there are other people that you could say have more power, but they don’t necessarily know how to use it. He knows how to use it. He’s very strategic. He’s methodical. He’s got he. Oh, he really he frightens me deeply.

Larry 44:34
Well, on the on the federal misconduct statute, reading, say your makes it a crime false or willfully violate individual’s constitutional rights. The officer is going to say I wasn’t trying to violate his rights. I was trying to keep a very strong man

Unknown Speaker 44:50
restrained. But what

Andy 44:52
do you like it speaking of this specific situation after he’s non responsive for three minutes, you probably could go huh? He’s not resisting anymore, which he had I don’t think he was resisting to begin with. But at some point time, you’d be like, maybe I could reduce my knee pressure on his neck at this point. This is this is like, I don’t know I don’t I don’t know how you really get around much of anything then first, I can maybe not first degree murder but second degree murder.

Larry 45:18
Well, what we need to do is we need to next week we need to bring the Rodney King beating video with him clubbing all the officers. Have you seen that video?

Andy 45:29
I vaguely remember. I know. I remember somebody getting pulled out of a truck. I think.

Unknown Speaker 45:36
Well, that was the that was the driver the ride. So it was Reginald Denny but the Rodney King video to spark that. There was a group of officers I don’t recall how many but I think it was in the four to six officers and they were swinging the clubs wildly on him. Okay. And cameras happen to be rolling and captured otherwise they would have said stuff that would have been sustainable but

Andy 45:58
yeah 1980 who had cameras

Unknown Speaker 46:00
Well, it wasn’t that long ago. It was a it was a it was in the 90s, if I recall, but but he then police their defense was that they were only using the force necessary, and that Rodney King was in control of that situation while he was pleading for his life, covering his head, and they were swinging and clubbing wildly. That was their defense. It worked a Simi Valley Valley, jury in California, found him not guilty with him on the ground being clubbed repeatedly. And the police saying we were doing this for own safety. And then the big old bad federal government came in and they’re brought federal charges and they and they actually secured a conviction. But the state the state jury refused to make this has nothing to do. You can’t it’s difficult to convict a cop of anything certain it’s going to be the same situation in Minneapolis is going to be very difficult to come back to Cops and Robbers, particularly if you overcharge them,

Andy 47:04
okay, which is kind of it seems opposite of what we normally experienced where the the charges are accelerated and enhanced to try and get you to plead to something less than here you’re almost describing a lesser situation where we’re just trying to get him guilty of something. And I don’t mean we but they somebody is trying to get him guilty of something.

Unknown Speaker 47:23
Well, now, though, I’m not saying the prosecutor might be overcharging with the intent of offering a plea. I don’t see the community accepting a plea at this case. Okay. So if I’m going to like the prosecutor, I’m going to be fearful of offering a deal because the average, the average citizens not going to understand why you offer deals, and they’re going to say, there they go again, there’s that corruption that we were feared of. Here it goes, they’re making a deal. So the cop doesn’t have to pay the price that a regular person, they’re giving him a sweetheart deal. And, and I don’t think the community would tolerate that. I think the prosecutor would have an immediate rebellion if they cut it down. So I don’t think you can offer a deal. I’m not saying that that’s not in the prosecutors mind, but I don’t believe politically you could offer a deal. You have to convict this cop. But I think the prosecutor has to be courageous and say if I overcharge, I might end up with nothing. Now you can always ask for what’s called lesser included. So if the jury won’t convict on the more serious than you asked for conviction on the lesser included of the reduced charge, but I just don’t like overcharging people. I really, I really think that’s a horrible tactic and I think you charged accurately you offer a reasonable plea to to everyone and if they don’t take to play you go to trial. If the evidence will support it, you shouldn’t bring the charges less evidence supported if they won’t, if they won’t accept a plea offer you try the case.

Andy 48:47
Ready to be a part of registry matters, get links at registry matters.co. If you need to be discreet about it, contact them by email registry matters. Cast at gmail.com you can call or text a ransom message 27472274477 want to support registry matters on a monthly basis, head to patreon.com slash registry matters. Not ready to become a patron. Give a five star review at Apple podcasts or Stitcher or tell your buddies at your treatment class about the podcast. We want to send out a big heartfelt support for those on the registry. Keep fighting. Without you, we can’t succeed. You make it possible. Now here’s an article from CNN says videos often contradict what police say and reports. Here’s why some offers can officers continue to live this from CNN? Can you believe Larry that there would be video footage and then the officers would say that didn’t happen? They would actually contradict the video evidence even like in the face of watching it.

Larry 49:53
Well, yes, I can’t believe that because what they say is their standard line. Why you don’t see everything thing of that video just like I’ve heard from people that are dear and close to me about about George Floyd. They say, well, you don’t know what he was doing before that before the cameras start rolling. I can’t wait to see the rest of the tape and I said, Well, if the police have tape, why don’t they release the video? Why don’t we, if the police have all this magic stuff? Why don’t we get to see it, but the cops typically their response is, you just don’t know the whole story.

Andy 50:23
But even if that’s the case, like even like I, short of Osama bin Laden being on your front door with with a vest that explodes. I don’t want to say the B word. Like, I struggle to think that the police should arrive at your door and kill people. I just I cannot fathom like the circumstances short of that example I just gave where there’s an immediate I mean, immediate threat of massive public damage that they are not the arbiters. They’re not the ones that get to tell you that you get to die today. Well, I agree. I bet I don’t know how any conversations that are had with anybody if someone told me like, I’m just tired of all this stuff. That’s On the news, like, when I saw something on Reddit, some pros, that protester, a white woman that said, if my my it was listing like the circumstances of the some of the high profile ones, if my son got put in the back of the van and died, if my son went to the store and didn’t return, if my son was just, you know, went to the store with $20 and didn’t return, I would be burning up the city too. And I think that, like that message when especially when we talk about our people, the registrants, the PF ours, the people in return, they go, if anybody messes with my kid, I would kill them. And somehow, like that doesn’t translate to all of these other people had been killed for severely limited, like inconsequential circumstances and they’ve died. We talked about like kids with plastic guns and the police shoot them. You can’t I don’t know how you could ever justify that into something rational.

Larry 51:56
Well, it’s easy. officer safety. I don’t know what you don’t have Sam I mean I’m not trying to be funny. I know that’s how they justify they say well I didn’t know it was toy gun

Andy 52:08
Should I put even like to have the immediate trigger finger to that be the response to Oh someone sneezed I shot I’m sorry, my bad. You know, like someone farted Oh, crap. Damn, I shot him. I my dad, I can’t put my head around all these circles.

Larry 52:25
Well, I agree on people people get shot with no weapons. Some of the articles we have tonight I think we have either one or two articles where where the there’s a number of them don’t have weapons

Andy 52:37
like this. The headline out of this article is a video showed officers in Buffalo New York pushing a 75 year old man police initially said he had tripped and fell but then video comes out and shows this dude, baby he was slightly aggressive but he didn’t threaten the police and they just frickin Billy clubbed him and he fell over and then you see blood all over. And then they stopped. They stood watched and that in that sad unbelievable dude. It’s just unbelievable to me that that the I was having a conversation earlier about this sort of same thing I don’t the police aren’t to me we talk about like white and black and and traditionally when you were when you were coming up probably when you were like already in your 50s or whatever the TV show The Lone Ranger what color hat did

Larry 53:18
he were? so well that was i was i was like 107 What was that show was running.

Andy 53:25
So what color hat was white? Okay and what color clothing and things did the bad guys wear?

Larry 53:32
That’s the long gloves. I remember it was items black and white in those days.

Andy 53:36
Oh, okay. Well, it seems to me so wife has always represented the good guys and the blacks and I know I know how wrong it is to say that considering like we have whites and blacks and other races and colors and whatnot. But so here in the picture that we have on the screen, the police are wearing all black and in my head. Black is the bad people and are cops driver on a black card. They have all the tactical gear and they’re wearing like military garb they’ve got combat boots on and they’ve got the like the the BU the battle dress uniform pants with the cargo pockets, they got all that crap on and they look militarized. They don’t look like they’re Community Safety people.

Larry 54:15
I agree. It’s got it’s gotten where the police it’s more and more difficult to distinguish them from military. It’s It’s sad that crime is getting less and less serious, less less prevalent. And we’ve been more and more militarized the people they’re supposed to be interacting with.

Andy 54:35
And and of course like they are there to keep us safe. And if Oh my god, something bad is happening. I would like to scream out and go. I would like some help, please. But I don’t know that. Those are the people that are going to come help me either. Tell they might mistake me Oh, hey, I’ve seen your picture on that website. You’re on that registry thing. So you must be trying to make something up to get somebody else in trouble.

Larry 54:59
Yeah, we are though. You’re the bad guy

Andy 55:01
apparently apparently. What’s this crazy article from vices police are gaslighting us reformers say body cameras and video evidence would stop police brutality. Instead we’re being told not to believe our own eyes. This goes along with the same thing that we were just talking about in Buffalo police said a 75 year old man who was walking alone, doing nothing when he was pushed over by a cop hit his head on cement started bleeding from his ears and was ignored by a group of a dozen officers tripped and fell. They have several other examples of similar things. How is it that the police like can try and stand by that the video evidence doesn’t. It goes against what their story is?

Larry 55:42
Well like like say they tell you don’t see the whole thing.

Andy 55:45
Do you see the video on that page? Did you see the the SUVs running over the people? Yes, I did. We had no choice. We were surrounded. You could have backed up. You could have done nothing. Were they going to break in their windows like maybe they Then the police are threatened and they could do something they would have to guess I think that would be an effect like an appropriate use of if they’re trying to roll your car over and take you out and beat you to death but if they’re just protesters on the street Why did the two SUVs like frickin gun it mow people down?

Larry 56:13
Oh well they would say that they felt very threatened the menacing crowd and that they wanted to get home to their families

Andy 56:20
that’s what the asshole did in Charlotte with the the Jews will not replace us and that the unite the white right wing or protest whatever that was.

Unknown Speaker 56:29
Do you remember that? No.

Andy 56:32
There it was right after Trump was elected. It was in Charlotte and I was pretty sure it was in Virginia. And the the rednecks with the tiki torches running around they were saying the Jews will not replace us. It was highly charged racist kind of things. And so a bunch of protesters, mostly black but many other people show up like and it was like a very large majority of protesters considering compared to the people that had started the the white side of the protest. Anyway, somebody In like a Dodge Charger, like runs down the street the next day and killed somebody, but just mode the car into a crowd of people.

Larry 57:07
Don’t remember that my, my senior moment here.

Andy 57:15
God, I just I’m just baffled by this layer, baffled. How about from the New York Times where Barr says there is no systemic racism and policing? I don’t see how you don’t see that there’s racism and policing. I just I just don’t understand how our chief law enforcement officer at the top would like publicly say, Now, there’s no problem here

Larry 57:36
that I think we refer to that as being tone deaf.

Unknown Speaker 57:39
that’s a that’s a fair way to put it.

Andy 57:41
Is it? Is it is it willful ignorance or is it strategic Lee countering the narrative.

Larry 57:49
I wonder about that was when I talk to people who say that they don’t see it. And I’m wondering that if he’s lived such a sheltered life privilege that he that he just doesn’t That he doesn’t. If you’ve ever experienced it, it’s not a relationship, something you can relate to. So I’m wondering if he’s tone deaf? Or if he’s just totally oblivious, or I mean, does he really believe what he’s saying?

Andy 58:15
I I’ve asked this to you like a bajillion times about our president. Is he like a babbling buffoon? Does he know what he’s doing? Is he just an accidental genius of whatever? I’m just I’m like, but this guy has been Attorney General before. Is that right? Yes. So like, I got to think that he has proven he’s competent somewhere in his past because he wouldn’t have just been like, graduated high school and became Attorney General. He would have to have some sort of resume to be appointed. Like this would be as something of an accomplished whether you disagree with his politics or not. Someone liked him somewhere along the way.

Unknown Speaker 58:54
Well, I have no doubt he’s respected but but respected people sometimes are oblivious to See, I take the attitude that no one wants bad things to happen. Believe it or not, whether you’re liberal or conservative, that contrary to rush limbaugh, liberals are not wanting to destroy America in their mind. They think they’re improving America. I do not believe that when when liberals would type conservatives that they want to destroy America, it makes absolutely no sense that they won’t destroy America. They want America to be better for them. I mean, people, people who are succeeding, they want to be even more successful. And when when they propose privatizing Social Security, I don’t believe they’re trying to destroy Social Security. I don’t believe that at all. I think that they don’t understand some of the ramifications of it. But I don’t think I don’t think I don’t think bars is is doing anything deliberate. This certainly he may not have spent any time roaming around the inner cities and watching what happens he may not be desired his life to learn that sure if he if he’s if nobody’s ever said, Mr. Turney General, you’re just flat out out of touch with what happens in minority communities. Hey, you know, he, he may, he may not understand. But for him to say there’s no racial bias to me, all he would have to do would be get into a police car with a hidden camera and watch it on a patrol. Watch it on patrol. Yeah. As all he would have to do income and compare notes as to who gets asked to open their trunk who gets pulled aside for being in a particular asking, asking, why are you here? What are you doing? And they’re doing nothing about passing through. I don’t think it would take very long to figure it out that there’s some there’s some bias in policing

Andy 1:00:43
to go along with that the acting Homeland Security Secretary Chad wolf said that systemic racism was not an issue for law enforcement. So I mean, it’s not clearly not just him, and I’m assuming it’s not just the two of them. It probably runs further deeper. And I would also point out that both of these are white men.

Larry 1:00:59
Well There’s not a lot of diversity in this national administration. Hmm. What’s up with that? Do you think? I mean, we’ve got Ben Carson and what else? Who else have we got?

Andy 1:01:08
Oh, God, and he’s been there the whole time him and which one? Do we keep the secretary the education secretary de vos, Betsy DeVos. They’ve been there. There’s like the only two people that have written the entire time, which I find amazing considering all of the turmoil, but as far as other minorities like, none, none that I can think of Jeff session, he was short. Does that make him a minority?

Larry 1:01:31
Well, I’m talking about black there so there’s no blacks in this administration. Other the big Carson I can think of that’s I would agree, I would agree.

Andy 1:01:37
Ah, well then let’s see what’s over at the Washington Post, which I might be stuck behind a paywall. Let me try and navigate my way around that real quick to go over this one. Open cognito because I can trick the system really well. Alright, protest spread over police shooting. Police promised reforms every year they still shoot and kill nearly 1000 people. This is why I was reading this letter it says last that year, the Washington Post began telling this is after Fred Diigo, after the Ferguson, Missouri one, Washington Post began telling how many people were shot and killed by police. By the end of 2015. officers had fatally shot nearly 1000 people twice as many ever documented in one year by federal government. And then they kept doing it in the same roughly thousand people in 16, and 17, and so forth. So they’ve been like doing their own independent analysis of this to come up with their own own version of the of the total.

Larry 1:02:40
It’s a it’s an alarming number. To me. It really is because, again, we lead the world.

Andy 1:02:47
Yeah, we apparently lead them in another category there.

Larry 1:02:50
So if you were to go to United Kingdom, you’d be hard pressed to find the police ever killing anybody.

Andy 1:02:56
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, so what do you think? About a manager that I’ve worked for he says you can’t manage what you can’t measure. So if we if we just sweep all this crap under the rug, then we go, Oh, hey, it’s not a problem. If we would track it, if we would, I guess going back to the the power of the purse that ties some sort of funding to it that you have to report this. I don’t know how you validate the accuracy of it, but you make police units report in to get some sort of federal federal dollars. How I don’t know how else you would report these things. How would you have accurate data to manage that the city is more gooder than another thing? Is is really

Larry 1:03:37
is tracking a significant problem because deaths are pretty much recorded.

Andy 1:03:43
But but don’t don’t you end up with the corner in cahoots and said, God, I don’t remember if it was an article we had tonight. But there was an autopsy on someone and the coroner said nothing like there was like there was nothing in the autopsy report. So then you then the family has to go get their own. Private autopsy isn’t that even like George Floyd? They said that they found things in the autopsy that that aren’t true.

Larry 1:04:06
Right. But what we’re also what the autopsy is, is what we know that the police killed him.

Andy 1:04:11
How? Who would who would be the the the institution that reports that that happened?

Unknown Speaker 1:04:18
Well, the aisle, all death, as far as I know, in every jurisdiction are recorded if they’re known. And and so if someone dies and police custody, I don’t know how that the last person who had contact with him we know whose name was on his neck, right? Sure. We know. We know that he died in police custody. So it doesn’t seem like tracking people in police custody to die would be all that hard. Same thing in prison. We know. We know you go into jail house. And we know that if you come out alive one thing and we know if you’re brought out as a deceased, we would know that when we don’t know necessarily what killed you while you’re in prison. You could have died natural causes, but with when personally Does that help the police? I think we we have a pretty good idea.

Andy 1:05:03
So then by extension, do you believe that this is not accurate information from the washington post that they’re tracking twice as many deaths per year than what the government has information on?

Unknown Speaker 1:05:15
I’m not I’m not able to explain how how that would be such a variation of them, because it seems like it’d be straightforward. They either died or they did

Andy 1:05:23
I get that part, but then the quote unquote, cause of death and circumstances. Does the does the family of the deceased have any say in how that is documented? And then how is that information aggregated and produced into a report for someone to go? Well, this Police Department has killed way more people than per capita than this police department? I don’t understand the mechanism for that information to travel up the chain of command.

Larry 1:05:51
Well, I’m assuming this is only an assumption, but I’m assuming that if if the NRC ADB the Office of medical investigate I’m assuming if Oh, am I receives report of a death, whether it’s in police custody or not, oh, Maya would send out an investigator to do to do an investigation. And of course, the police will be interviewed. So the person would say, Well, what were you doing with it? Well, I had my data’s not okay. Did he? What happened next? Well, he went silent for the for 810 14 minutes. Okay. Well, then, and I don’t know, the ultimate stage was in an autopsy, because I’ve never I’ve never observed one. But by understanding at a basic level, from what you see on TV, and and what you hear about is that they take the control of the body and they try to figure out what the what the causes of death were, we if there were, there was a particular cause of death, but death, but the first thing you do would be you pick the corpse up at the police department and police custody, you would know that right? And then you would start you start looking into the cause of death. You might find that the person you might find that the person had all sorts of issues. Once you get an autopsy. Now we have a person In Mexico, I can ask for about autopsies. And we can get on next week because because that person who’s retired now used to do they’ll sakes, you know, we used to, but I’m assuming that we could, we could we, we would know who’s dying in the police custody.

Unknown Speaker 1:07:15
I guess you could have people that would go into a corner arrest because our police costed and the police have it costed. It might not had anything to do with it, their calls to death, but but it seems like that there would not be a huge variation.

Andy 1:07:26
Hmm, I can’t argue with your your analysis that I just said, I’m been conflicted on the Washington Post’s making their claim that they have tracked, and I don’t know what their mechanism of tracking was, did they just take eyewitness reports and, you know, there’s like, Hey, I watched Larry die by the police and they just accept that as being the truth. I don’t know how they I have a decent amount of respect for what the Washington Post does is journalism. I realized that they’re slanted in a certain direction, but I don’t think that they have been called out terribly for being inaccurate like some other Let’s

Larry 1:08:00
Oh really? For instance,

Andy 1:08:02
I mean, you know, I mean, even CNN, you know, gets called out fairly regularly for being shoddy. But you know, maybe there’s another one that has three letters and starts with F and is a name of an animal. Aha, I won’t be specific about which animal that was sort of like a canine kind of an animal. Uh huh. Have you figured out what I’m referring to you?

Larry 1:08:23
It’s a little hazy to me but so

Andy 1:08:28
Alrighty, though, and then we have another Okay, so that’s the same well then All right, let’s uh, gosh, you know, the the Atlantic if you don’t have like a college education, you cannot read articles from the Atlantic just about these very big words. The first step is figuring out what police are for this is a an article, like I said from the Atlantic for reform to succeed, American communities need to have a conversation about what the purpose of police is, and think hard about what jobs can be better handled by other institutions. This uh, I we’ve kind of been tiptoeing around On this one, if you have somebody that’s having a mental health issue, like some kind of breakdown, and you get the police out there, billy clubs, like, that’s probably not the appropriate response. But I don’t think that we’re having the conversation in the country of trying to figure out how we should delineate those. Those roles. I think we had a clip, maybe it was a clip, or at least I heard some someone say, well, we just send the police to do everything. So the police, like everything looks like a nail in there the hammer,

Larry 1:09:27
there’s some fairness involved or something. The police are de facto, the problem solvers for we’ve had either never adequately funded or we’ve reduced funding for this, like our jails have become de facto mental health wards and the jails really don’t want that responsibility. And the police get called out when you when you have a that’s got to be a name for a down and out that’s more appropriate. But one person who’s down there login and who’s not completely rational, guess who gets to call The deal with those people is to police. You know, we don’t have we don’t have anybody else to sin. So you have a person who may be struggling with mental illness. And this person with all this garb, dressed with guns and handcuffs and clubs and everything comes rolling into the scene. And it police officers are trained to talk sternly with command, with with confidence and to be and that probably escalates all situations. And in fairness to the police, they probably be happy not to have these roles that have been thrust upon them. But unfortunately, that’s where we’re with society. We don’t have we don’t have anybody else to call but to please. So this article points out that, you know, what do we want from the police to do? Do what do we want to have less police and more people that are able to respond to those types of situations where you need more of a counselor, a compassionate person, rather than an aggressive armed person? And would you get better out I think you probably would,

Andy 1:11:02
I want you to put on your hat and pretend that you’re a particular attendee of the first Atlanta conference that says the crime rate has for several years now been at historically low levels

Unknown Speaker 1:11:13
of response.

Andy 1:11:14
I’ve heard that before. What was the response of the person gave you?

Larry 1:11:17
Well said it was bogus.

Andy 1:11:20
So this must be some shoddy publication the Atlantic Who would ever believe anything that they publish? Oh, obviously not that person. Can you in your mind is it like, can you in your mind layout how you think it should be delineated? How what should be doing the police that should Can you think of how we should identify should how we like quote unquote, break up these different roles that they play?

Larry 1:11:48
Well, what, when when crime is happening? Clearly a law enforcement responses as is an option to consider, but I think we have We have to get into Do we? Do we really want to send out a heavily armed for counterfeit? 20. Right? What was that? Had you sent out a? Let’s let’s try to see if we can all agree on this. If you had the British model, where you send out an unarmed officer, or they usually use a lot of verbal, verbal, jousting and persuasive, if you watch, if you watch a a, an officer in the UK, they used to try to persuade the person to do what they want them to do. So you’d go with it with with the British accent and but what Sir, could you step into the car, please? You know, what would you would you mind putting your hands over your head so I can so I can. So I can do a quick Frisk of your body, that they they’re trained completely differently. So I would like to see us send out police that are heavily armed in situations where heavily armed is the right thing to do. Because that’s What you’re responding to, but I would like to see a much more low key response. They’re still sworn officers but maybe they come in plainclothes and maybe they talk to you like a friend. You know, hang on, but I’m with the Albuquerque Police. What’s going on here? Yeah. And and and and crisis counselors available. Mental Health Services. Of course, that means funding and we might have to raise taxes. Oh, stop. We’ll

Andy 1:13:25
stop on this

Larry 1:13:25
recording as we speak right here. We might have to either reallocate some of the money that’s going to traditional law enforcement, we might have to consider increasing revenues to pay for more mental health counselors, more crisis workers because some things don’t need the aggressive response from the police. They need a calming counseling therapeutic environment. This is more for Teresa to talk about from from pa but but the police to place or we’re probably willing to give up some of those things because they don’t want to do all these things. Do they’re not Marriage counselors, right. One of the things that police hate a lot is domestic domestic disputes.

Andy 1:14:05
I can imagine that they do.

Unknown Speaker 1:14:06
They, they hate with a passion, because they know that they have to wrestle buddy, we’ve got this famous bipartisanship that you talk about. We agree that arresting the primary aggressor is required to keep the federal funding. So when you go out on domestic violence call, you’ve got to take somebody into custody. And sometimes custody is not the answer, because by then by the time the police get there, the the parties have had some, some resolution, and they want to call a truce. And then they turn on the police and the police get scratched and attacked at customs and everything, because they’re in the middle of this. So I bet we could actually get the police to agree on some things I would like to get out of that part of the business.

Andy 1:14:52
Theresa actually did say she said defund the place and funnel dollars to mobile mental health crisis units, among other things.

Larry 1:15:00
Teresa listening right now she absolutely All righty. Well, we might need to fire her up,

Andy 1:15:04
then we might I don’t know that we should do that tonight with the internet connection we have the super secret underground bunker has some really shoddy internet I’ve already been disconnected once.

Larry 1:15:13
Well don’t let it happen again.

Andy 1:15:14
I will try when I load up new pages for the next article. It takes it more like minutes for it to load. But so with that I am going to we’re going to talk about there was a man a week or two ago that like a vigilante murder had been killed in Nebraska and says Oh mom and says killing sex offender was justified and doesn’t think a jury will convict him. This is from Omaha world Herald and I have a voicemail message from will that I would like to play. Are you ready for the for the voicemail?

Unknown Speaker 1:15:47
I will do my best. All right here we go from Well,

Unknown Speaker 1:15:50
good evening, Larry and Auntie This is will from Tennessee. And I have a question regarding the vigilante murder of Matteo conda Lucci by James fair banks, and there have been GoFundMe pages set up to pay for Mr. Fair banks legal defense against the murder charge. He’s that’s been imposed. And I have read the comments on that page. And they are so vile and disgusting. This murder has been raised to the level of a folk hero. And there’s a Facebook group dedicated to supporting him. And according to the World Herald, thousands of people have supported fair, fair banks online. And a store in Nebraska is selling t shirts that read fair banks did the world a favor. Can those kinds of comments and expressions of lethal sentiment be an admitted into court as evidence that the registry does indeed subject registrants to A very real danger that would amount to cruel and unusual punishment. I’d like to hear your thoughts on that. And thank you for what you guys do and to all the rest of the world who loves the registry so much You’re such friendly young people. Good evening, and thank you

Andy 1:17:19
cannot get him to save my life to actually see what fyp is.

Larry 1:17:22
Well, I liked it till they got to the very, very end about does it does it? Cause does registry cause danger people Clearly, we we’ve documented that with with with the ones that have been willing to proclaim that they use the registry as a tool to target their victims. We know that there’s the overwhelming majority don’t do not pronounce that but but some have thought we know that. So we know subjects them to vigilantes, but vigil. punishment is a governmental function. And because vigilantes are engaging in unlawful behavior. I’m not drawing the connection to that punishment, it’s dangerous. But punishment would be the punishment that’s actually imposed upon you in the registry is not a punishment that’s imposed upon you. It’s the collateral consequence of, of either a conviction or not guilty by insanity or something that triggers the duty to be part of the registry to be a participant in the registry scheme. So up until the part where he said, does it does it? Does it constitute cruel, unusual punishment? or whatever? I don’t I don’t say that it does that. Does it? Does it open up? Do you have any legal challenges? I think it does do that. I think it shows that the internet publication splits with address specific and with the type of detail that it does. I think it it bolsters the claim the internet is a dangerous tool. And it’s a government aided tool that allows the public to engage in vigilante I mean, I think, I think it moves our calls forward and in terms of the jury I think he might be right. That a jury won’t convict them. If you remember what they took when they picked the person in a jail, you remember that, that that uh, they plotted that he was taking the Novation upon being admitted to the jail. Do you remember that?

Andy 1:19:14
Yeah, I do. And I have some some clips from change.org campaign to help fund his legal defense to read off, most of which just say things like, he’s a hero, he has saved all of us from these terrible people and, you know, doing things that the government won’t do and protecting our children, etc.

Unknown Speaker 1:19:31
Well now, but just just think about the absurdity of this a jail facility full of people who the majority are generally pre trial pre conviction. These are people who want to be presumed not guilty. They want to have a good attorney. They’d love to have a robust challenge against the state and force hold hold the state’s feet to the fire in terms of burden of proof. How is it that that they could rationally Do what they did, and claim that they want due process of law for themselves. If you can explain that to me, I’ll take you to the thickest steak or whatever you want to eat while I’m here, because I cannot fathom how you could dictate. You could be in jail and applaud someone being admitted to jail. hosts just committed or been accused of we don’t know he’s guilty, but accused of committing a very serious crime to me. I can’t make that calculate.

Andy 1:20:28
Do you think from judge Mitch pullet, pointing out that the registry is cruel and unusual punishment at the hands of the public? Do you think that ties into it ties into the just the aspect of what you said is that here’s the internet component that we have this public registry thing and a public registry thing. Dude got killed? And does that make any of the connection for you?

Larry 1:20:54
Well, I don’t remember the vigilantism being a part of Jamaica’s decision. He was he was not focused on that. So I’m not I’m not drawing the direct parallel there. And judge mages for judge mates for those who are not recognize the name that was the now deceased federal judge in Colorado who found the registry as applied to the challenging parties was unconstitutional in several regards on one was it It caused cruel, unusual punishment that there was more than one plate if not remember which one he found it was cruel and unusual. There might have been the person who was convicted as a juvenile but but I don’t I don’t quite see the parallel here

Andy 1:21:29
Hmm. Well is like determined that saying that three had been harassed and judged he called them out for that they had been harassed because of the public component of the registry, which then ties into this thing and fair bank in Omaha with fair banks and whatever kind of Lucci that because dude was on the internet. He was, who he was and then decided to go murder.

Larry 1:21:53
Well, I know that before we sign off, people want me to say that all registries are in constitution. Sure. And They’re not right. All all criminal registries are bad, but they’re not all unconstitutional, you could have a registry that would be constituted. Now, I don’t think any of our legislative bodies would be capable of designing such a thing, because there’d be too much pressure to pile on things that would make it unconstitutional. But you could have a constitutional registry,

Andy 1:22:22
so like to take this Omaha thing by extension, so if it didn’t give dudes 123 Main Street but just said in the general vicinity of this intersection, or in this county, maybe then dude would never have necessarily known that he lived next door. Plus, as I understand it, all of the registry said that you cannot use this for anything other than just your basic informational purposes that you can’t use this to go and be a vigilante and dude, killing another dude is that as far as I know, our criminal code shuns that kind of activity, and

Larry 1:22:57
it’s already against the law but if someone will Write dilaudid do you think simply putting an admonishment that you should misuse this information? Do you think that I would do anything?

Andy 1:23:07
No I certainly don’t but then does does the judge does he get caught you would only have to have one person holdout correct to you to convict him of murder would you just need one holdout

Larry 1:23:21
Will you need one holdout to acquit I mean to hang the jury but but

Andy 1:23:26
so then can the judge get in there to the jury and go look I don’t care what you think about the registry killing another human is is bad. I mean, does the judge get to like I know the judge does a little bit with the with the jury as far as like, here are the rules here’s what you’re actually listening for. So did he do this like premeditated and all these things and then they’re all gonna come he’s not guilty?

Larry 1:23:46
Well, I think I follow your question. jury nullification doesn’t happen very often. That’s when despite the evidence, the jury finds not guilty. That you’re correct, the judge would and instructions and as a Before you get to instructions in the vetting of the jury, you would be trying, you’d be trying your hardest if you’re the defense to make sure that that that those type of biases are not there. But you can have a runaway jury. All it takes is a really strong personality to emerge just for person to the jury. And you can you can end up having a runaway jury and, and people people can can do things that are they’re irrational, but the evidence is pretty compelling. So it’s hard to imagine that they won’t be found guilty of something they may they may they may settle on a lesser charge because I like identify what he did why he did it.

Andy 1:24:39
I mean, it’s like I can I can imagine scenarios where you you know, you walk into your bedroom and your spouse is there with your best friend and you lose your brain and you you kill them in the heat of the moment. This guy like kind of pondered it for days and he like went to the door and knocked on And like, talk to him for a second and just said I was just overcome with rage and I just shot him right there on the spot. It feels a little bit less than just like I was overcome with rage and anger at the moment.

Larry 1:25:11
No, it’s it’s it sounds very premeditated

Andy 1:25:14
it does it it at least maybe not premeditated to the point of But hey, I’m gonna go have a talk with this dude. Okay, I can’t handle it anymore. I just must kill this purse. It’s like, it’s so ridiculous. Plus, have you seen dude’s mustache? Yes, that is an amazing mustache. Kinda Lucci has one of those like 1920s things that like curls up and around a few times over. Looks like it looks like it

Larry 1:25:37
looks like a weirdo. So,

Andy 1:25:43
I really struggled to think I can see the jury saying that. Maybe he shouldn’t be guilty. But I don’t know how they could argue that it would be to me there would be some mental gymnastics to sit there and go. He’s not guilty of ending the person’s life. So Maybe they come back with some lesser kind of murder. I know that there’s like 10 different kinds of murder that there is but somebody’s still dead in this

Larry 1:26:07
day. It’s hard for me to imagine a totally not guilty but like they could cut him some slack and they found without the premeditation, but, but you know, the evidence is strong,

Andy 1:26:17
very well. And then if you are not in objection to any, any of the articles to cover, I would like to do the challenge to the Miami Sex Offender Registry residency rules and then call it quits. Sure if there’s something else you want to want to hit, no problem, ru v. So this one comes from courthouse news panel, here’s challenge to Miami sex offender residency rules. And I always love when I read articles that have Lauren or Ron book in it because they just seem to have such a like, like their public image is like, oh, we’re trying to help the offenders but they are putting the screws to them at every turn. And this is about residents PFR is just having to be for all practical purposes homeless and with nowhere else to go. And I was hoping that you had some information that you could fill in the gaps on where this may be heading. But I didn’t get the chance to. So what we have is an appeal in the 11th circuit. And for those who haven’t followed it, the 11th circuit is the southeast United States. It’s based in Atlanta, and it covers three states, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, as one of the circuit courts of the United States court system. So when you when you try a case at the district court level and you’re

Larry 1:27:34
an satisfied party, you have a right by law to appeal to the 11th circuit. So the challenge was filed. It’s a 2500 feet requirement. prohibition for us, not all offenders, it’s certain sex offenders but the prohibition that makes it difficult to find housing in Miami Dade. And and the district judge said, Nope, this is Scott. institutional so it’s on appeal. The 11th circuit, just FYI has been sitting on a case out of Alabama. It’s one of the three states in the circuit. McGuire vs. Strange. And that’s been sitting in the level circuit for a number of years now. And those who attended the narshall National Conference, the, the webinar, whatever we call it these days, the one of the attorneys on that case, Philadelphian was the speaker. Yep. And I don’t know if that came up. I have not been able to watch. He

Andy 1:28:28
often talked about it pretty much exclusively for the hour that he was on.

Larry 1:28:31
Yes. Well, that that that that case has been sitting there unresolved. So my expectation would be that based on the track record of your loan circuit, this case might go sometime before it’s resolved. On the appeal,

Andy 1:28:45
can you enlighten me on what is what like? I mean, I have no idea what they do. Do they play golf all day? Like what is the holdup of them deciding on a case for years and years and years?

Larry 1:28:57
Well, we don’t know all of this on this. One, it could be, it could be anything from a member of the panel died or had health issues. They this on the cases two, three judge panels. And it could be anything from that there’s an evolving body of case law registration, and they they’re waiting to see if the silver bullet they’re looking for, to either give them the backup to, to strike the thing or to uphold it, you know, in the case of Maguire versus strange, so it could be any number of things, but someday they will eventually decide the case. Who knows when but but they they will eventually decide the case. And same thing with the 10th circuit in the case that you just mentioned earlier with the judge make the 10th circuit sitting for some time on that case. They will eventually decide the case.

Andy 1:29:53
2500 feet is it a mile or half a mile it is half a mile but it doesn’t like You know, half a mile as the crow flies like that’s a seven, eight minute walk, you know, at a not even anything of a brisk pace. It’s not, it’s not that far but when you turn it into a big circle, it is a gigantic number of square feet now is off limits. It’s so crazy at how big that is that in a place like Miami Dade like that is a very congested place that there is now effectively no place for them to live except for this tiny little carve out and then when they go there, they run them off and then they’ve got to go find some little other carve out for them to go hang out at. And somehow so this the the original judge says

Larry 1:30:34
Nope, you can do this. That’s what looked at the 45 page opinion, which I might may have read back in 18 when it came out, but I don’t recall enough details talk intelligently about it. But I’m sure that the judge felt that he or she had done a brilliant analysis for coming up with with because just cuz you don’t like something doesn’t make it unconstitutional. And what you’re arguing is banishment.

Unknown Speaker 1:31:00
The the issue of banishment as it was understood in colonial times which those who claim they’re literalist and believe interpret by what the words were meant at the time. banishment didn’t include just not being able to live in a place management include being told to leave town and never come back. So the defense of these laws as they say, well, we have a banish them from town, they can spend money they can be here. This is not a banishment This is merely that they cannot live here, or they can live here, but they have to live within the boundaries of what’s acceptable, but but it does, it’s not a true punishment. So then you have to come up with a new legal theory. And a good legal theory is not that I don’t like this law, this bad public policy, that doesn’t make it unconstitutional. Bad public policies don’t magically become unconstitutional because you disagree with them.

Andy 1:31:50
I just agree, Larry, we should not allow this.

Unknown Speaker 1:31:52
So so the that’s what people, people who don’t understand what the courts role is their courts. Roald is not to save us from unwise choices that we’ve imposed on ourselves through a democratic process stupid but constitutional? Yes. I think we need to play Scalia. Do you have that handy?

Andy 1:32:09
Oh my god, it would take me moments to get there so that for a minute, Larry and I don’t find stupid constitution.

Larry 1:32:16
So but yeah, the with when we have bad laws from a policy perspective, that doesn’t make them unconstitutional, you have to put forth the constitutional argument like it deprives the one that I’m chomping at the bit is the religious separation was the first amendment where people are effectively not allowed to go to church. The law doesn’t say you can’t go to church. But the the government by prohibiting a person who’s required to register from being within a certain number of feet, includes the worship house and the worship householder step over said nope, that’s not none of your business with the government that is not allowed to constitutionally separate us from our permission. parishioners, so therefore, we’ve got a constitutional argument. But just because you don’t like the fact that there’s an exclusion, so unless they did it retroactively and took your property from you, at first blush, it doesn’t look unconstitutional because it’s not a punishment.

Andy 1:33:16
It’s a restriction. Do you remember if it was the clip that was about originalism, the constitution that I apply is not living but dead or offensive magic? Remember, we’d all look

Larry 1:33:25
for it tonight.

Andy 1:33:26
Yeah, I don’t know which one it is. I should probably get that as just a little itty bitty one little thing where we’re at the end of our time allocation, we are absolutely 140 So that is all I’ve got Larry, unless you have anything else that you would like to talk about. Plug. Discuss describe?

Larry 1:33:45
Well, I would like to know if someone wanted to support the podcast or contact about a guest How do they do it?

Andy 1:33:51
Oh, okay. Well, first of all, your answer is always gonna be very careful. However, first of all, you have to go get internet and there is no internet here at this location. It is garbage. So from here, these people could not support us. However, other people go to patreon.com slash registry matters. And of course, we love all of our listeners, but the ones that support us, you guys are the bestest in the whole world. And we so very much appreciate it. It makes this a much more enjoyable endeavor. And it makes the pockets a little bit heavier, I guess. Yeah. heavier. And there’s another stimulus check coming, Larry. So maybe we could entice people to give us the new stimulus check.

Larry 1:34:29
Well, we’ll have to wait and see about that.

Andy 1:34:32
How long you in town for till next weekend. Excellent. And traveling was good. How did you did you have an interesting experience at Hartsfield? Just a

Larry 1:34:41
little three hour stay over but no hearts. Don’t think interesting was there was nobody in it.

Andy 1:34:47
Nobody in it. I don’t know. Like, some time ago, I flew out of there like Thanksgiving and the security line was like wrapped all the way around the food court.

Larry 1:34:56
I didn’t need to go through it because I was barely passing through. But I could imagine And it will stop very. I didn’t encounter any problems along the way in terms of security delays. It was running with fewer personnel but it was running pretty pretty rapidly.

Andy 1:35:09
And and will wants me to ask you, you did bring the showerhead.

Larry 1:35:12
I did. I had to I had to use it. I couldn’t get a drop of water in Raleigh.

Andy 1:35:22
Did you? You didn’t go to Raleigh.

Larry 1:35:23
Yes, I did. You did go to Raleigh. Yes, that was my first stop.

Andy 1:35:26
Oh, and that’s why you went through with telling me that okay. Now I understand. I didn’t really I thought you were being silly when you talked about Nevermind. Okay. I thought you ran into somebody somewhere else. I got it. I got it. So, all right, then well, that is going to close things out. The show notes will be at registry matters.co. You can find YouTube you can call 87472274477 and registry matters. cast@gmail.com There you go.

Larry 1:35:52
That’s everything. So thanks, everyone.

Andy 1:35:55
Have a great night and I will talk to you soon.

Unknown Speaker 1:35:57
Good night. Bye.


Transcript of RM131: Media Fearmongering Isn’t New

Listen to RM131: Media Fearmongering Isn’t New

Andy 0:00
registry matters as an independent production. The opinions and ideas here are that of the hosts and do not reflect the opinions of any other organization. If you have a problem with these thoughts fyp recording live from fyp Studios, east and west, transmitting across the internet. This is Episode 131 of registry matters. 331 episodes, I can’t really quite believe it to be honest with you.

Larry 0:24
I can’t either. We’re just we’re just beginning.

Andy 0:28
We are we got more to go.

Larry 0:30
We’re just we’re just we haven’t reached adolescence yet.

Andy 0:34
Well, yeah, I mean, I guess by your standards in 131 is probably just like about to hit puberty hasn’t

Unknown Speaker 0:39
not even close. We’re still we’re still in elementary school.

Andy 0:43
We’re still wearing diapers.

Larry 0:44
Not until we’re in elementary school.

Andy 0:48
We have a very special guest joining us tonight. We tried to get them last week, but apparently there was some unrest going on in Minnesota. And so we have joining us a Christian from Minnesota for which I right now. The bed half desk what is Minnesota for

Unknown Speaker 1:02
sure, no problem. Guys, you know, living in Minnesota and go into the struggles that we face every day I have been seeing things from Nassau like Nebraska, the fearless group and some other groups and I kind of approach Brenda talk to Brenda. And there was a contact named Tim. With him we created Minnesota for and at that point I kind of reached out to some churches to say, Hey, this is what we’re about. There was a church and Methodist Church that gladly took this on. And in fact, they want us to spread around the Methodist churches in Wisconsin and Minnesota. So a little struggle getting off are a little struggle kind of taking off, but it’s getting there about 12 numbers right now. So Minnesota stands for Minnesota for our rights.

Andy 1:49
Oh, I understand. I understand I have like fo you are number four. I have not been able to figure out what Minnesota forest but now I understand. Welcome Welcome. Yeah, thank you guys. Do you want to jump right in Larry or do you wanna? Do you want to give us any words of wisdom before we dive in?

Larry 2:06
I think we’re gonna jump in because we’ve got a full house of of guests and we’ve got so many articles and we’ve got a tight time schedule because I have an appointment.

Andy 2:17
They’re good. But yeah, like, before we even get going, like holy cow. We have a whole bunch of people in in livestream like listening to us record this so that is pretty awesome. Like, you know, we joke that you know, thousands of listeners, but it’s a really good number.

Larry 2:32
Yeah, and and my my fiance’s even here tonight.

Andy 2:36
I don’t know that she has agreed that that is the case.

Unknown Speaker 2:40
It’s good news to hear Larry. Wow.

Andy 2:42
Yeah. Especially since she has a husband.

Larry 2:46
I don’t I don’t I don’t discriminate on things like that.

Unknown Speaker 2:52
Larry always pictured you with two cats and living in a duplex on sorry.

Unknown Speaker 2:57
kidding, I’m kidding.

Andy 2:59
Yeah, I know. Right? Well, let’s let’s let’s get things rolling. The first thing that we have is, and I think this came out before, like, right as we were recording last week and just didn’t quite grab it in time, but this was a it’s from Texas voices and it’s court cases Hearn vs. Cast, hey, yeah, I don’t even know how to pronounce that word. But it’s an unfavorable decision in the horn case. And I got through about two paragraphs and my eyes roll in the back of my head. And I’m hoping that Larry can digest this for us a little bit.

Larry 3:28
Sure, I’ll try. So this case, this case was the United States District Court. And we talk a lot about district court cases because and the level of federal courts that’s the trial court of general subject matter jurisdiction, just FYI, you also have another court and the federal system that is as a part of of the judiciary called the magistrate court, the magistrate judges and the magistrate judges play a part in initial proceedings and certain parts of civil litigation. They are done by the magistrate. But this is a this is a trial level court. This case was taken to trial rather than summary judgment. And it was relatively a narrow focus case on the registry violates the plea agreement. And so what what Richard Glenwood who’s been a longtime supporter of Texas voices and has been even on marcil calls and I think he’s, I don’t know if he has attended a conference. Yes, he has. But anyway, he’s been an activist for a long time civil rights attorney and he brought this case. And the theory was that that, that those who received deferred adjudication at one time in Texas did not have to register they were not a covered offender. And, and that example like in Mexico, we have a conditional discharge if if you receive that, that’s an exemption from registration. Texas, remove that registration and Then that that, that that exemption and require those people to register. And then Texas changed the law that require the people to register for life. And so that litigation was challenging that that the plea agreements that people plant thinking they were going to either not have to register, or the other argument is, which wasn’t in this case that I would have to reach for a shorter period of time. The biggest flaw in that logic is you have to prove the registry is punitive. before you’re subject to that type of the plea agreement, the plea agreement if they change something that’s not punishment, which, as far as I know, there’s been no decision in the state of Texas that says the registers punitive I know about, know about those versus Snyder, we could go through a whole list of cases. But that’s not Texas, and the Texas the Texas registry has not risen to the level of of punishment, as far as what has been proven in courts. So therefore, the the litigation was not successful. The state put forth a bunch of specious arguments that they always do. They said that the department is not a party to the plea agreements, therefore, it’s not the proper party to be sued. That’s on page four. They said there’s not a substantive due process right to be free from ongoing registration. They said that a writ of habeas corpus was the right way to bring this rather than a 1983. And they said the statute of limitations on the claims that people had run because since 1983, does have a particular statute of limitations and that that’s actually a law. The federal courts refer to what the statue of limitations are in the state where you’re bringing the action and they said that the state argued the statue of limitations had run. And then they said that the claims are barred by doctrine articulated in hc vs. Humphrey and always Humphrey person take But anyway, I’ve heard that case before. And they they lost they lost their case. I don’t know if Richard I started to do an appeal. But the the case law in the Fifth Circuit, which Texas is in is not good.

Andy 7:09
And so statute of limitations and how is this how are these situations similar to other places where they have ruled them to be unconstitutional?

Larry 7:22
Well, not having a lot of knowledge, but the Texas registration, I don’t know if the disabilities for example, or comparable was in Michigan, or in Pennsylvania. But But be that as it may, even if they are, that was one of their claims. They didn’t they didn’t they didn’t raise that as a claim. They their theory was that since the plea agreements at the time, didn’t require registration, that this is changing the plea agreement. So they were they were proceeding under the state of Texas should be required and held that contract and play rooms. Consider contract and the court does say that here, but but the court says that that is that this is merely a regulation. It’s not anything to do with changes or punishment. So therefore, they haven’t changed the plea agreement.

Unknown Speaker 8:12
And true and I wanted to jump in here, guys. Mr. gladden had had the theory of a previous Supreme Court case of Santa Bella versus New York, which they changed his plea agreement and went all the way to the Supreme Court. And I think it was a five four decision. So with that theory, Mr. gladden thought that that’s surely would violate the 14th amendment and the contract clause so but unfortunately, I don’t think the judge a fully read the briefs or cut it short, or something like that, you know,

Larry 8:52
Larry, yes, being sure he was finished, but But yeah, I’m not. I’m not knocking everybody can look at the world. decision and say what they would have done. I don’t know whether I would have brought this claim or not, I wasn’t faced with this particular person. But anybody who did come to me wanting to bring this, I would tell them that, that until we’ve proved that our registry is punitive, that it’s going to be a long shot. And I know people don’t like to hear that. But if, if you haven’t met the threshold of showing the registry above this punishment, you’re gonna have a hard time getting to where you want to go, because you’re allowed to do a lot of things as long as you’re not altering the punishment.

Andy 9:34
Christian any replies?

Unknown Speaker 9:37
Yeah, absolutely. I would like to say that. I’m hoping, hoping that the Fifth Circuit of course overrules that. And Larry, you’re right. Read that and reading Texas voices on their page, that player correct me if I’m wrong, I think it was 2012 or 2017 Supreme Court decision our Fifth Circuit that they had already ruled For one of the reasons and I think that Mr. gladden expects once this to get to the Fifth Circuit that they’re going to overrule the the judge. And I think that we maybe 50% there, it could be could be the reasoning behind that. But I do want to share with you another thing really quick. There was a another case in Texas that just previously was one it was ci versus McGraw. Sort of the similar case the guy was on deferred. And this case he got off in 1996. But they didn’t really come looking forward to think about 2012 or 13 said, Hey, you have to you’ve got to do this. He did take it to court, and he did win and the district court, there was this only one gentleman but he didn’t claim the 14th. He didn’t have those constitutional claims as Mr. gladden did. So that was a win, but I don’t know how far that’s going to go and the state court

Larry 11:01
Well, Christian, how, how is he going to overcome the unpublished opinion now, unpublished opinions are not binding. They’re they’re, they’re merely persuasive. It’s kind of like when you have an out of circuit opinion, when you when you start citing the Sixth Circuit when you’re in the 11th, or the fifth, it’s not binding, but when he takes us up on appeal, how he’s How is he going to overcome the unpublished opinions? And if you look on page seven, it says, what I think is going to be difficult to overcome that, that the Fifth Circuit stated in unpublished opinions, this Court has repeatedly affirmed District Court district courts dismissal as frivolous to claim but retroactive application of Texas law requiring sex for registration and notifications violates Ex Post Facto Clause. So so I’m just wondering how he’s going to get around. Cuz what you’re what you’re gonna have to have happen is you’re gonna have to have three judge panel That’s gonna say,

Unknown Speaker 12:01
well, we’re not bound.

Larry 12:02
We’re, we’re not bound by this. And we’re going to completely disregard the previous analyses that’s been done.

Andy 12:10
Well, so what do you think? What are they gonna? Yeah, we can hear you. Here.

Unknown Speaker 12:18
Christian. Just a second here, guys. Oh, can you hear me guys? Yes.

Larry 12:24
I don’t think he’s hearing us. Okay,

Unknown Speaker 12:27
sorry about that. Can you hear me?

Unknown Speaker 12:28
Yes, me. Okay. We keep saying yes, we’re hearing you but you’re responding to us? Yes.

Unknown Speaker 12:33
I

Unknown Speaker 12:37
guess you can’t hear me. Mute. me. Okay, sorry. I i do i do see what you’re saying, Larry. I think you’re right. It’s it wasn’t. It wasn’t published. I just got through Misha gladden just had another court case. Interesting enough. This was a very interesting case. I thought. He’s handling the guy in the federal court, same judge by the way. Guy, Richard gladden brought the CI versus a bra case up in court recently, and of course being not published. You’re right. I don’t know a lot about the Publish versus non published. And I thought that was always interesting enough to, to kind of gather

Larry 13:16
more information about what the non publish are not binding. But, but like I say, you would use it as the same way we would use a out of circuit decision, you would say that when the panel picks up this case, if he takes it up on appeal, they know that it’s not binding, but they’re going to look at the quality of the analysis in it. And if nothing has been changed, and distinguished from their analysis, they would have to be a renegade panel to say we’re going to disregard the previous analysis, even though it is not binding on them that that’s what I’m wondering how he’s going to find two of three that are going to say, to heck with what the previous panel has decided because it is not binding on them because it’s not published.

Unknown Speaker 13:56
Right. Exactly.

Unknown Speaker 13:58
Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 14:01
tough battle to win. For sure. I hope that Mr. Glenn prevails in the Fifth Circuit.

Larry 14:08
We certainly do hope that but I believe in telling people to my to my detriment that that I think that he’s he’s going against the odds on this that he’s got another step he can follow cert petition with Supreme Court, which I don’t know if he did in Lewisville that did he seek the Supreme Court review in the city of Louisville case with a residence which he did attend a session? And they said, Oh,

Unknown Speaker 14:36
so now here’s here’s another thought. If Larry and Andy if the Supreme Court had made a decision in 1971, and Centerville versus New York, do you think that could How do you think that would inspire further if he had to go beyond the Fifth Circuit to go back to the Supreme Court say we already ruled on this in 1971? What is your thoughts? Something that

Larry 15:00
Well, I haven’t even read that case. I don’t know what they said. Do you want to enlighten us on what they said and and center Bell?

Unknown Speaker 15:07
Yeah. So, center Bella was a unique case this was a drug case. And in a nutshell, basically, Santa Bella had copped a plea, cut a plea deal. And he was going to give so many years of probation, he’s going to avoid jail time. The during that time, his lawyer originally stepped down and there was a different prosecutor. So it kind of waited during some time, actually, when they made the plea. So things went further. He got back into court to actually play in front of the judge and the prosecutor, a different one had changed the agreement. And at that time, he basically had taken an all the way to the Supreme Court and the overruled that he already made the original deal and the original contract. He just didn’t happen to be in court. To play at that time, give you a good case of mine. I actually did the plea. And I didn’t go to court for two weeks later. So I can see that there may be some time difference on on actually showing up the court to actually do in front of the judge to get down on the record, but that’s essentially how it happened.

Larry 16:21
So yeah, I didn’t I didn’t read the case. I wasn’t. And I’m not prepared to talk intelligently about santaville.

Andy 16:28
Shall we bounce over to the next article? Sure. All right, this next one, I don’t know what NCSL National Conference of state legislatures is. Someone had given me this article and said do you think that they could make special license plates for registrants pf Rs? And this is I think there’s a summary of people that have different states that have license plate requirements for various things like DUIs and things like that and just wanted to bounce the idea around could they make license plates for TF Rs.

Larry 17:00
Well, of course I could,

Andy 17:03
does it wouldn’t that like immediately start doing some kind of compelled speech kind of thing?

Larry 17:09
Of course it would. But remember, they can do anything. It they could do anything until they’re stopped, it would be presumed constitutional. When they if a legislature were legislature in the country were to decide to require PFR to have a plate, it would go through the process be signed by the governor of be presumed constitutional, it would be all the PF RS to challenge it.

Andy 17:31
So we all start driving around with big red blocks of blah, blah, blah, and our license plate that says something nasty on it, like sex offender just like stamped across the middle of it.

Larry 17:40
Well, I mean, I think that the challenge what, what would be a very, very good challenge, and I think that that that would be one of those things where you could probably get injunctive relief from out of the box, because it doesn’t take it doesn’t take a lot to prove though. The emotional reaction that this would cause and the target. But we have that target on people’s homes. All right. So the logical extension of that would be to have it all on their on their vehicles, wouldn’t it? I mean, they don’t just say their homes all the time.

Andy 18:14
Definitely not. And you know, and we also have a handful of examples of driver’s licenses.

Unknown Speaker 18:20
Yes, we didn’t in gentleman Minnesota does that they they’ve been doing that when I moved from Texas. It’s called whiskey plates starts with the W. It’s typically your second DUI in the state. And then once you get that you have to wear you have to have whiskey plates on for the entire time of your probation. So they have been doing that. And to go a little further. Last year, there was a senator who wanted to put sex offender on the license plate, it didn’t go anywhere. And luckily it didn’t even get out of the committee hearing but certainly he’s going to try again. next session, but whiskey plates have been around for years.

Larry 18:59
Well But the way you distinguish, so it’s confined to within the period of punishment. There’s a lot of there’s a lot of latitude afforded to what you can do to people, you can’t do anything you can imagine when people are being punished, but there’s a lot more latitude because you’re repaying a debt to society. And, arguably, if you don’t want to have this marking, we have another place where you will not have to have this marking. And we won’t require this at all. We have another alternative program for you. And you know what that would be right?

Andy 19:30
I think I do. But what is the answer?

Larry 19:33
Yes. If when you’re being punished for a crime, and if you don’t like the terms of the punishment that you’re going to have in the community, there is an alternative program they have where you would not be subject to those requirements.

Andy 19:46
Oh, you could go back to jail or prison.

Larry 19:48
Yeah. So but but when the punishment ends, the plates, the whiskey plate comes off, right, Christian?

Unknown Speaker 19:54
Yes, yes, it does. Correct. Yes.

Unknown Speaker 19:56
And that’s the same thing about registration registry. That was that was fit within a person’s punishment. I’m not saying any type of registry you could conceive of, but a registration period of some sort would be very difficult to challenge. If it fit within the contours of the person’s punishment, though the problem is, it doesn’t that, but but in terms of, if they were to specifically design this as to be part of the punishment, and that people would have some marking on their license plate, and if they were to put lawmakers are never capable of doing this, so there’s no worry, but he was I can say this, they’re not going to do it, because they always leave with a broad brush. But if you were to use the license plates very narrowly, and strategically towards a certain type of offender, and if you actually had a process to allow them to escape that, to not have that some sort of review process to see if that was appropriate, you could probably do that. For The pf Rs, but the state never likes to have due process because it cost money. Therefore, they would never actually narrowly tailor they don’t that’s not even in their vocabulary to narrowly tailor so they they’re not capable. It’s like what we’re getting to later segment about the police can policing themselves. That is not something that they can do themselves. They just can’t. And and, and we would not be able to expect lawmakers to narrowly tailor something that’s just beyond their vocabulary.

Andy 21:30
Well, all right, then. So we’re going to the other thing about having like a driver like a license plate thing, so it I have to relate it to Coronavirus, like I saw somebody you know the little like photo things that you put in your car to block the sun and they just kind of like fold up into like a big circle. So like you put this thing around your waist and it creates a six foot diameter thing that you can now walk around and now you know what your six foot separation thing is. So put that on your car. So now you have to have like some sort of bubble around your car that would indicate that you are a person that nobody should be near because you are a PFR I expect

Larry 22:04
these these type of proposals to really not not catch on. There’s a lot of there’s a lot of pushback on this type of thing. It’s it. It’s, it’s been debated. It’s not It’s not something new if you look at what the CFL that these type of things have been around for a long time proposals for this.

Andy 22:22
Alright, well then we are going to move over to this has got to be my favorite article tonight. It’s gotta be my favorite article. This is the Marshall project, his first game the pandemic, then came the raw sewage. So these are prisons in Texas, where they have had some plumbing problems, but the administration will not admit that they are having some any sort of a plumbing problems. And they told them that they the inmates that they couldn’t flush their toilets, they couldn’t wash their hands and they could like they couldn’t use water for days and they were pulling on top of pulling on top of booing. It’s really disgusting.

Larry 23:00
But what do you I mean, Andy, for God’s sakes, if we have, if we have plumbing problems, what do you expect us to do turn all these people loose?

Andy 23:07
I mean, I don’t know what the alternative is. In the article, they described that the prisons, most of the prisons in Texas are just so old that you’re either gonna have to put some money into it. Or maybe you’re gonna have you’re gonna have to either build new facilities, or maybe you gotta let some folks go home because this chunks expensive.

Larry 23:27
Yeah, well, you know, and one of one of the points we made was that the town had water problems that they had to curtail the amount of water given to the prison.

Andy 23:39
Christian, I’m sure you have some sort of points that you’d like to make on this.

Unknown Speaker 23:43
No, I had to some. I do write some people in prison and grown fond at some of these people. And some of them are a little bit needy, but I have heard some horrible stories that I can’t imagine. Now. Take this, Larry. You’re probably what pretty dry heat and you’re probably pretty humid in Georgia but take it down to South Texas and you get 9697 99 degrees right now and it’s hot and it’s a little oppressive a little dry and human and think about the way the prison smells and think about what they’re having a little bit with daily. It’s It’s perfect. Yeah.

Andy 24:21
Well, Christian want to be confined in those places for any length of time without water.

Larry 24:26
I go back to what I say over and over again, though the prisons are a direct reflection of Texans, Texans, and it tends to run the gamut across the southern United States. They, they do not want to spend any money on prisons, and they want people to suffer immensely. If you were to go and I don’t care what city you pick in Texas, you can pick whatever you think is the liberal part of Texas. And if you had picked I guess Austin would probably be the the liberal mecca of Texas. Pass if you if you went into Austin and you pulled out a cross section of People, you ask them, Do you think we should go on the building bench to build new prisons, have air conditioning, good facilities and enhance the programming and you wouldn’t even find support for that. it’ll it’ll add a large level in Austin. Texans want the people to suffer. They do not want the presence air conditioned. They take great satisfaction like Surefire pile did with his pink underwear and his no air conditioning and in the green baloney and the things he did to humiliate it makes Texans feel good knowing that prisoners are suffering, and maybe they won’t want to come back. That’s the attitude of too many Texans. I’m not saying everybody said obviously there’s some people and Texas who don’t feel that way. But if you if you if you’re talking to the average citizen in Texas, they don’t want the prisons to be different. If they did, they would be

Unknown Speaker 25:53
absolutely that’s the mentality. And you’re absolutely right, Larry, and that’s that’s, I don’t think that’s going to change Not like California had filed some lawsuits with some overpopulation or sanitation issues, but Texas wouldn’t go that far. And that certainly wouldn’t go that far anyway in Texas, but yeah,

Andy 26:13
what was one of the little block in there that uh, I want to say that there was a section in there were like people showed up to their details like into, into the cafeteria or the chow hall. And like their, their clothing had been used to mop up some because they got the water running, and then it kind of backfired. So they like reverse the gears on the water and it came back into the, into the unit. So they were like mopping the floors with their clothing. So they show up to work with with poo stain clothing and they smelled really nice. I’m pretty sure that’s this article. Yes, yes. Yes. It says they smelled overwhelmingly of urine and feces. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 26:48
Larry, we are terrible people.

Larry 26:50
Well, wait, we’ve got budgetary constraints. Do you expect us to actually put more money into prisons I mean, and I’m not saying this. It’s Partially tongue in cheek, but as part for serious, every revenue stream is going to be adversely impacted in every state some states more so than others. But, but revenue to fund government is going to be under great stress. And unlike the federal government, where they just simply put it on the charge account, most states don’t have that option. They have, they have to pretend their budget is balanced. And if your revenue is down by 30%, you’re going to have to look for places to cut and of course, no one wants to be cut. So then since no one wants to be cut, then the question is, what do you cut? And what do you not cut? Well, law enforcement generally tends to be something that gets cut the least and cuts last. But prisons as far as the facilities themselves, the actual structure, and the programs for the inmates. Those things are vulnerable because those people don’t have a lot of political clout. Now they’re not going to want to reduce staff because we have a security problem. If we Do that. They can cut medical, they can cut food, they can cut a lot of things, really to prisons, but they’re not going to want to cut the staff because if they were to reduce the staff by one, there would be a massive escape, you know that it’s a scare tactic. So we’re going to get into late later they would use, but prisons are going to be a low on the totem pole in terms of getting getting their funding. You got a whole lot of other things that state’s fun. And prisons are not nearly as popular as those other programs are.

Andy 28:24
I see. Well, let’s move over to the appeal, which again, the Joshua Vaughn, I think you’ve said that you don’t remember who this is, but he was at The Ohio conference, and he writes a whole lot of articles related to criminal justice stuff. And this article is less than half a percent of Pennsylvania prisoners have been granted the emergency release during the pandemic. Again, we have people that probably you know, their their short term, their elderly, they already have pre existing kinds of conditions that they could be released early furloughed temporary suspension, all these things And like Governor Wolf has signed off on 153 reprieves and only 140 people have been released from prison as part of the program. Again, we are putting these people in grave danger from having the Coronavirus infect the prison system and they’re not letting anybody go home.

Larry 29:18
Well, the to give the kudos to the two governors that are apparently doing more the Kentucky Governor, the democrat governor of Kentucky and Bashir, and then the republican governor of Oklahoma, Kevin Stitt, but now let’s remember a few episodes back we talked about that, that governors on the democrat side are being threatened by the opposition party, that if they do this, that they’re going to pay a price at the polls because they’re going to be vilified. And wolf is one of those governors that Republicans have threatened to take him to court if he uses his executive powers too freely, because they don’t want a tidal wave of crime released in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

Andy 29:58
Think like, I don’t want foreshadow too much but we have another article coming out later, almost describing almost that same thing with a Republican legislature stymieing some something that the the left wanted to do.

Unknown Speaker 30:11
Well, yes. But But the point I’m making is in Oklahoma, I give the kudos to step for doing the right thing. He won’t be vilified. You won’t have any democrat lawmakers criticizing him for being more generous with reprieves. When you flip it over, you have a democrat governor. And if the republicans run the legislature, they will vilify the democrat governor for letting people go. So the democrat is worried about his or her political career. Steve doesn’t have that to worry about because no one will vilify him over this particular issue. They may feel fine for something else. I’m not saying the democrats don’t vilify Republicans, but they don’t do it generally over this particular issue.

Andy 30:57
Christian, anything you want to add?

Unknown Speaker 30:59
No Nothing on this one. I did read this printed out copy guys, by the way that I held in my hand, but nothing.

Andy 31:08
All the articles. Yeah, there’s

Unknown Speaker 31:10
a whole ream of paper.

Unknown Speaker 31:12
Well, Andy, I’ll tell you this. I really appreciate you this week, because last week, I printed out all those articles last week that I missed. And boy, that was a lot. It was like 300 pages. The state that I worked for the state and I’m like, Where’s the paper Christian? This I’m like, oh, there’s only a few pages. This is great. So.

Larry 31:33
So are you telling me that the hard working taxpayers of Minnesota have I’ve paid for this for this extravaganza of years of printing these articles?

Unknown Speaker 31:43
Yes, they have. Should. Luckily, no last names are here. Thank goodness. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 31:49
no, no, no.

Andy 31:53
So but are they releasing anybody up in Minnesota that you’re aware of

Unknown Speaker 31:59
today momentum and D are repeating

Andy 32:01
are they releasing anybody in Minnesota that you’re aware of?

Unknown Speaker 32:04
Oh, no they’re not I tell you Andy you probably know who this is. And Larry I know for sure you know this this I I do write back and forth with Josh Galen, you know who he is waiting for the civil commitment Virginia. He had. He has a group called justice. I forgot the exact name of it. But they had petitioned the governor to let the people out of Moose Lake, which is a civil commandment facility, and I think there’s 700 people total in the state. He did try to push that of course, that wasn’t gonna go anywhere. either. So yeah,

Andy 32:41
I do know who that is, by the way.

Larry 32:43
Okay. That wasn’t for sure. But yeah, yeah.

Andy 32:46
Ready to be a part of registry matters. Get links at registry matters.co. If you need to be discreet about it, contact them by email, registry matters cast@gmail.com You can call or text a ransom message 27472274477 want to support registry matters on a monthly basis, head to Patreon comm slash registry matters. Not ready to become a patron, give a five star review at Apple podcasts or Stitcher or tell your buddies at your treatment class about the podcast. We want to send out a big heartfelt support for those on the registry. Keep fighting without you, we can’t succeed. You make it possible. Well, I think that covers the fun short side of like the news articles that we can go into what we should probably title like the the abuse of power and possibly a day of reckoning coming for the abuse of power from our law enforcement apparatus as you would like to call it Larry. We have a bunch of clips and a bunch of articles that we can go through and discuss the coming changes whenever you are ready. There

Larry 33:59
will I’m going to try to set this up and and focus on what I’ve tried to do is to do some analogies of the present versus the past because I have this crazy thing I do as I look backwards to look forward. And I take a lot of abuse for that. But that’s how I predict the future because the past will tell us a lot about what people will do in the future. And as I as I’m watching, and we were talking last week, I said that, that the the police will engage in terror scare tactics and they will try to terrorize the the citizens if we began to try to assert control, and that is beginning to already unfold there. The Tucker Carlson and Sean Hannity both everybody I think that listen to us at least heard those names. But Tucker Carlson said that the leftist wanting to defund the police and abolish the police and all these untrue things. But what I’ve got is a series of clips tonight. I’m a city councilor in many apalis wants to reduce the increase of the police budget. And he’s already being vilified. And then a lot of people that that are in the registry position that we have, that the battle we’re fighting. They say the media so horrible that it used to be that way. Yeah, I hate to break it to you. They did. They, we just didn’t have as much of it. And yesterday, I was thinking about what kind of event Can I can I use to illustrate a point about the scare tactics that we use, and I went back to 1981 with the traffic controllers decided to strike against the US government and the silver approaching 40 years since that strike. And there were predictions made by the strikers about all these dreadful things that would happen. And of course, none of them did. Nothing dreadful happened, of the predictions that were made. But the same thing the police are gonna do. They’re gonna To tell us all these dreadful things that will happen. So let’s start with clip one from the msnbc.

Andy 36:05
All right, here we go.

Unknown Speaker 36:07
The place where this current American uprising all started, of course has been the apalis, Minnesota where a number of elected officials in the state are pushing for police reform. One of those officials is city council member Steve Fletcher. And he had this just incredible Twitter thread yesterday talking about his attempt to reform and basically being stymied at every turn by the Minneapolis police union quote, politicians who criss cross the Minneapolis Police Department find slowdowns and their wards. After the first time I cut money from the proposed police budget. I had an uptick in calls taking forever to get a response. And Minneapolis Police Department officers telling business owner to call their Councilman about why it took so long. Minneapolis city council members Steve Fletcher joins me now. Thanks for joining us, Councilmember. Maybe you can start by giving us a little context about policing and the Minneapolis police department in your city even before George Floyd’s Death and the latest protests.

Unknown Speaker 37:01
Absolutely. So we have been struggling with police accountability for many, many years. We have known it was a problem. Many of us on the city council ran on police reform and on police accountability. This is not the first person to die at the hands of the Minneapolis police department. It is certainly the one that is the clearest about it being just utterly inexcusable and indefensible. So I think this has sparked a new level of outrage. But this is something that we have been working on and and you know, as I talked about, it’s something that I’ve been trying to in incremental ways begin to chip away at begin to think about what functions of the police code we replace with other kinds of responses. what ways can we create accountability, to make sure that there’s discipline for abuse of power and misuse The use of force and some very challenging

Unknown Speaker 38:02
what what has happened? What has happened when

Unknown Speaker 38:05
you have attempted things like for instance, cutting police budgets, this is something that’s kind of sacrosanct. In many cities, major cities around the country. Police take up 40 to 50% of the total budget for the entire city. What is the organized opposition from both the police department police union been like when there are any attempts to do that.

Unknown Speaker 38:24
And the ironic thing is we weren’t even proposing a cut to their budget, we were proposing a cut to a proposed increase. So it felt to me like it was probably insufficiently progressive for even what I had run on in some ways. And we still had a you know, they’re very good at organizing a base of sort of law in order conservatives and also scaring people by either implying that there’ll be aggressive about enforcement about something or that they will slow down enforcement about something so I start getting calls saying, hey, there’s a guy sitting in our park. A lot stalking one of my employees, and we’re calling unreal one about it and they’re saying, Oh, we can’t do anything about it. Talk to your council member.

Andy 39:07
Now, Larry, why would you get like the super over the top left wing job clip on this publication here?

Larry 39:18
I didn’t didn’t view it quite that extreme over the top. I’m trying to prepare people for what the police are going to do. We’re in a battle that we haven’t seen. And these people are not going to go down easy that they’ve they’ve had total control, total support, no questions, no control. I mean, they’ve had the control, but the citizens have had virtually no control over them for so long. They’re not going to want to give that up. And so I’m trying to do what I do best is tell people look, this battle is gonna be a tough one. Yeah. So that’s, that’s the that’s the backdrop for this question. Do you know that counselor, I know you don’t live in Minneapolis proper

Unknown Speaker 39:59
now. No, not at all but close to it in the suburbs. No, not particularly that. That City Council. I do know that they want to. They did that the school districts had pushed Minneapolis police there. They want to disband the police and they just want to use the the Hennepin County Sheriff’s Department. But again, I don’t think that that’s going to go anywhere. Minneapolis is very diverse. You have a large, smaller population. So and again, if you guys know, was a US Congressman Keith Ellison, he’s now Attorney General from Minnesota. His son is one of the city council members as well. So I think it’s gonna go round and round for a while until this kind of quiets down, but they certainly want to cut the police force at this point.

Larry 40:49
Well, I want to I want to dig into that point you made there because that’s part of the scare tactics that Tucker Carlson and Sean Hannity are using. Now you’re talking about for those who don’t know Minnesota, Minneapolis, the county is Hennepin County. And what they’re talking about doing is since they can’t control the police department is they’re talking about having a uniform, unified police structure where it would be under the Hennepin County Sheriff’s, which would be an elected position. And I’m not sure sure the data paid County Sheriff’s office’s without fault as well. But they’re not talking about just having lawlessness and a law enforcement. They’re talking about shifting from having a sheriff’s department and a police department to having the sheriff bees respond to law enforcement entity for the entire county. Do I have that right, Christian?

Unknown Speaker 41:38
That is correct. Yes.

Unknown Speaker 41:40
And so so the scare tactics that you hear that they won’t tell abolish the police. They want to abolish this particular agency, and replace it with another agency that apparently has a better track record at policing. That’s what they’re wanting to do so, but as I brought up the air traffic control system, There’s a lot of people listening that may not be able to remember that 1981 but the, the, to work for the, for the for the FAA to be a traffic controller, you have to take an oath not to strike and they decided in August of 81, that they were going to go out and strike because of their grievances had not been satisfactorily addressed. So let’s do clip one.

Andy 42:20
Right here. clip number

Unknown Speaker 42:22
one, we’re on strike.

Unknown Speaker 42:24
That’s how local Petco president Steve wallet announced the beginning of the walkout in Norfolk, Waller surrounded by area controllers charged the skies are unsafe and said there could be a tragedy.

Unknown Speaker 42:35
When the civilian controllers in France went on strike, the French government attempted to run the traffic system with military controllers. Within 72 hours, there was a mid air collision. I would hate to see that happen in the United States.

Unknown Speaker 42:47
But at the local FAA office where security has been beefed up to prevent any sabotage tower chief bill commander says it’s as safe to fly today as yesterday. If it’s not safe, we’re going to keep them on the ground and slow things down and on As many airplanes but safety is the first consideration, the operation will be safe, I

Unknown Speaker 43:03
can assure you, but money

Andy 43:06
has a certain tonal quality. Like I’m completely like side railing the conversation for a moment. But like there’s just a certain tonal quality of how the things were produced 30 years 40 years ago,

Unknown Speaker 43:16
and only say some Larry and I do kind of remember because I do like a lot of political and historical things. It was the Reagan years and it was a union issue. And didn’t Reagan kind of push this sort of, he was for them. And he brought in scabs, as we know that union term bringing in the scabs to kind of cover them during the time. I don’t know how well they did if there was any collisions at that time, but I think Reagan had a part in this and the Republican Party,

Unknown Speaker 43:42
I believe, would you say for them push them? He wasn’t for the controls for union that

Unknown Speaker 43:48
was not for the union or at least the federal government. You know, I I work for the federal government were for the Air Force. At one point we had a American Federation of government employees. I know that the the federal government didn’t appreciate or like the federal government, the union because we’re working for the public. We’re working for us. So what’s the purpose of having a union? Why do we need one when we’re in the public sector, and that’s the the thing I got when I was employed from the federal government.

Larry 44:19
Well, that was the very conversation I was hoping to avoid in terms of the of the merits of the strike and who did what, but it was during the first year of the Reagan administration of his first term, it was in August that he had been inaugurated in January. And he he made a point that, that they had pledged inside the data strike and therefore that that their strike was unlawful. And he, he gave them a period to come back to work, which they declined to do so. And then they they they were all fired. And but yeah, that I wasn’t wanting to debate the merits of the strike. It was about the the, the the sensationalism, you heard the threat that the planes were gonna fly off from the sky, and I don’t want to say that that’s gonna happen, but it’s a possibility. It’s a possibility. Yeah, that’s that was what I was trying to get out of that clip and then so yeah, let’s do let’s do clip two now. All right

Andy 45:12
to

Unknown Speaker 45:14
offer controllers are standing strong in their bodies stay off the job. Despite President Reagan’s threat to fire controllers who don’t report for work by 11am Wednesday, local Petco. President Steve wallet says he isn’t worried.

Unknown Speaker 45:27
What’s the president gonna do when we all get fired? What’s United States government going to do when 13,000 air traffic controllers are out of work?

Unknown Speaker 45:33
Walmart says it would take years to train enough people to replace all patco members and he once again charged the skies are not safe.

Unknown Speaker 45:41
Yesterday they had a near mid air over in New Jersey 15,000 feet between the blue Air Canada and in New York here. I don’t want to predict would be an accident. The possibility exists that there could be an accident. A serious meantime.

Larry 45:55
Okay, so we’ve heard two clips on tooth to tooth scary to death, now I lived through that, not a single plane fell from the sky in 1981 8283 that I can recall, I recall, I recall that, that the air traffic control system was under stress, I recall that, that they had to slow down the number of planes they had to end those days a lot. They had, they had huge peak times in the morning, and they had it morning and an evening push. And they they had they had, they had to reduce the number of planes. They had to manage the flights, but nothing fell from the sky. All the Armageddon that they predicted it would take all these years to rebuild air traffic control was wrong. They, they they were able to re staff the towers, and they were able to have a safe air traffic control system. And the point I’m making is I’m not taking sides in the end the strike, but they weren’t using those scare tactics 40 years ago, just like their dog now, about all these dreadful things that are going to happen.

Andy 47:00
How cats gonna get pulled out of the trees if the police are removed if they’re defunded and all that.

Larry 47:06
I don’t think they’ve done much of that for a long time. So it’s the fire department anyway. So yeah, so let’s let’s go ahead and do clip three of the of the series. I just

Andy 47:18
tell you that all of these clips they all came in with just like the left channel, so I had to go do some finagling to get it to be both sides.

Larry 47:25
I don’t know what the left channel is and what both sides means.

Andy 47:28
Well, you have two ears, so one of them is left and one of them is right. Anyway, they were they were recorded all on one side.

Unknown Speaker 47:33
Hmm. But think about that.

Unknown Speaker 47:36
And also controllers remain resolved not to go back to work and their daily press briefing, acting president bob Cameron predicted the system will fail next week. When fatigue sets in on the skeleton staff. Kevin also issued a warning to anyone who applies for a $32,000 a year controller job

Unknown Speaker 47:53
in 32 minutes good as an air traffic controller. Wait till you’ve done it for a couple years. It doesn’t look like much at all. And believe me I mean that sincerely, you 20,000 applicants, my jobs available, I’ve been fired. Give it a try. And I’d like to talk to you about five years and see how you feel then

Larry 48:08
now that we’ve got some mathematicians out there, so somebody that’s in chat, convert 32,000 from 81 and forward that to today and tell us what what that amount of money would be. So we can have a picture what the salary was like an 81 employee not doing that one. I know but we’ve got 100 people in chat right now somebody can do that. And and then the the the other the other clip is regarding that when you take a stand for something you believe in, you just might face arrest. So let’s hear a clip clip for

Unknown Speaker 48:40
the fact that he was jailed was no surprised at all backpack go president Steve wallet. The morning the strike began wallet said he expected to be arrested. Do you expect to go to jail? Yes. What about the rest of the guys behind you? How do you how do you assess the whole jail situation?

Unknown Speaker 48:55
I remember that happening prepared to do whatever is necessary. They are they’re aware of the consequences. And jail is one of those that they are one of those consequences.

Unknown Speaker 49:07
So they, they, they made a stand for what they believed in. They do their consequences like we’re breaking the law. And the entire workforce with exception of the few that returned were fired. And Congress passed the law changed the law in 1986, that they could be rehired. And by 1986 the FAA had law didn’t need it. It didn’t need these people back out of the 13, almost 13,000 I think that went on strike only about 600 wherever return to work with the with the FAA. So, folks, life as we know, it didn’t end. The doom and gloom didn’t happen. The scare tactics that existed 40 years ago. Were around them. And they’re around now and they’re probably more in house now because they have more methods to scare you. Those days. I had the three networks and sub limited PBS, but They were doing what they were doing that what they’re doing now they did decades ago. This is not anything new. So it doesn’t take a genius to figure out what they’re going to do, because this is what they’ve always done.

Andy 50:10
Well, let me I, I kind of want to, like reveal the man by the curtain. Why are we talking about this? Like, what does this have to do with the registry?

Unknown Speaker 50:18
Well, the George Floyd really doesn’t have any direct thing to do with the registry. It has to do with police accountability, and police overreach. And what we do have in common is that a lot of pf ours people forced to register, suffer a lot of police overreach anything from invasions of their home without permission, and threats. If they don’t cooperate. They are told to do things that are not in the statutes and threatened with prosecution. And they they the the overreaching police who are not accountable. This is a mindset. What we want is police when they have a function to do To do no more than the function select with Cobb County, which Cobb County we haven’t forgotten about you, we’re coming for you. So, but, but, but but people who invent requirements, it’s because of lack of accountability. We don’t want police overreaching. If we tell them that your job is to make contact with a PFR is once a year and collect this list of information. We don’t want you in bidding a brand new list of information and telling people that they have to do things that are not required to do because ideally, you would like them to do that it’s not your job what you’d like them to do. So the indirect the relationship is that our police are doing a lot of things that they shouldn’t be doing. And they do it because they can and so it’s about accountability of the of the police and our law enforcement agencies across this country. That’s that’s the direct comparison here. But But yes, I don’t think that anything is cut and dry that idi these killings were done because someone was forced to register As a sex offender,

Andy 52:01
right? I know I, I’m with you. I just wanted because I can see all the hate mail like, Man, you guys have gone too far away from the registry stuff. And I just wanted to make sure that we early on because there’s still a good ways to go on this to make sure that we described why we were bringing up this sort of agenda, something from 40 years ago was like, what does this have to do the registry? And it’s because like you said that the the extra, overzealous attitude that law enforcement has against pf Rs. and the current situation with George Floyd and all of the protests and all that they are very they’re not that tangentially related. They’re they’re fairly closely related.

Larry 52:38
Well, when the next time when a when a registry officers shows up your house and says, I want to come in? Do you feel confident enough to say no, and that the average average person out there The answer is no. And the reason why is because of the power that that badge and the company officers represent the intimidation factor. Wouldn’t it be nice if they were not allowed to knock you Your door and demand to do Did you comply with something that’s not in the law? Wouldn’t that be a better society?

Andy 53:06
Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Yeah. If you weren’t, like totally scared, hopeless that they’re gonna come in and tasers and guns blaring. And anyway, Christian, anything to add before we we continue?

Unknown Speaker 53:18
No, no, I think that this good coffee, good conversation. We’re hearing it every day. I know the Minneapolis orchestra and forgot the other one. But there’s a lot of people did discontinue the service. And of course, you’re going to hear that that things are going to go rogue and we’re going to be lawless and just all over the place. So I think that good topics and we’ll see what wants to come in Minneapolis and how this is going to shape our community and state.

Andy 53:51
I think we have an article it might just like touch on it along the way, though, that different places have have canceled their contracts. It’s what Christian was just talking They’ve canceled their contracts with law enforcement to have police in schools or maybe they’re in shopping malls. This is kind of sparked a whole like maybe we don’t need all of them running around all the time just being policing kind of people. I felt that way.

Larry 54:16
And and of course, when you when you say what I’m about to say, we don’t know what didn’t happen because of the police. It’s always difficult no matter what the scenario is, but most everybody out there has probably heard of the International Balloon Fiesta because we’re the largest hot air balloon festival event. And certainly the country and possibly the world happens here in Albuquerque because of the beautiful setup we have for pilot hell ideally, balloons launch and land here. And and but I go out to the Fiesta. It always disappoints me that there’s all this law enforcement. And I’ve never noticed anything of any consequence. You have 10s of thousands of people Every day over the course of the Fiesta, nothing ever happens. And of course, we don’t know what would have happened weren’t there, but it just feels very intimidating when you’ve got Mounted Police, and you’ve got all these people, there’s just such a presence, you know, people are having a good time. They’re watching beautiful balloons, they’re buying things for their families, or they’re not out there to cause trouble. So, so I’ve always thought they could do was quite a bit less.

Andy 55:24
Understand we need more clips, are we ready to

Unknown Speaker 55:28
get some more more clips, but I think we’re gonna bring in the the the importance of voting a little bit later. And then I think we can go ahead and do the thing about black people. We got a comment last week about this wouldn’t have been an issue about if it were, if the person had if George Floyd had been white, and I kind of took issue with that because it has been it has been something that’s been on the forefront of this podcast. I don’t know how many episodes we’ve talked about. Police behavior over the top. It hasn’t been erased. thing at all for us it’s been the the the conduct we attack we attack if you send my kid to the ground this junior high school or high school I don’t care what race of the kid is I care about that shit was when when you when you handcuff a woman giving birth to a child I don’t care whether she’s black or white. I mean it never enters my mind. But I responded back that that that that the shaver murder in the, in the Hotel in Las Vegas, he was white and yellow, that got a lot of notoriety. He was proud the cop was prosecuted. The jury refused to convict him in Albuquerque with the James Boyd case when they shot him off the side of the mountain but he was trying to surrender. He was white. There was an uproar. There was protests all over the city. A little bit of it got out of control, and he was prosecuted and he won like the cops typically do. They don’t they don’t return guilty verdicts. But I don’t see it. I don’t see that that’s the point. But anyway, that was printed not just like lives if we play that play that clip, nobody’s saying that this is only affects black people.

Unknown Speaker 57:11
It’s not just black males that it’s happening to look at the Sandra Bland and now look at this. That is children, children, children that would treat it as if they had just robbed a bank or shot up a church. And I you set up a church because when we were in Charleston, fighting for Walter Scott, that happened, and do you know how he was apprehended with fast food and a smile, and politely put in handcuffs. And I remember sitting in my hotel room looking at the TV stunt

Andy 57:42
going, going back to something that you were just talking about, like we covered things where the school resource officer which whatever you want to call it, like the cop in the school, Body Slam some kid that was going down the hallway?

Unknown Speaker 57:52
No, it’s it’s certainly I think that that I don’t want to speak for the person because he’s not here to speak for himself. But I think that he’s overreacting, that that this is somehow of a black issue, you’re more likely going to have an escalating behavior. If you’re black of what will what will set off an officer, particular white officer seems to be able to lower tolerance. And I say that because I’ve got a lot of life experience and I know how I get treated with a cop. I know how gently I am treated. And then I’ve been in the law business long enough, watched enough video now of how the encounters go down with people who are younger and darker, and they don’t react and interact the same way that they do with someone like me. And I have a friend who lives in Georgia he said when he got pulled over several times because there are some stolen gasoline and his his truck fit the description and he said he got pulled over several times in the course of an hour and a half, making its way up by 75 And he said all he did what the police told him. I said, but yet you but you gotta remember, you’re 60 years old, you had a spouse sitting in the vehicle with you. You didn’t present a threatening profile to the officer. Therefore the officer approached you. That is a felony stop. But I’m just wondering if this red vehicle could be it. I wonder, Sir, did you? Did you happen to get off at x at 72? We got a report of a vehicle driveway on gasoline. If you had to 20 year old black man was dreadlocks. And if there were if the windows were slightly tinted, and that vehicle was thumping a little bit with what do you call that rap music to offer sir would have approached that officer would have approached them entirely differently. So what they would have been required to do would not be the same internet interactions that I or you would have had. So you can’t say

Unknown Speaker 59:55
that your friends is saying that they shouldn’t be black.

Unknown Speaker 59:58
Well, he’s not saying directly but he’s he’s he’s acting as if how he’s treated is representative of how everybody is treated when they interact with the police and it isn’t. You know, the the college, the college, the college students that Atlanta. I mean, ideally he would have kept moving when the officer said, you know, keep keep moving, but he did. And he had someone that was outside the vehicles, I understand it, and he was trying to get he was trying to pick him up. And he didn’t keep moving and that irritated the police officer. The irritation level would have been a lot lower. Had it been someone like me, they would have said, Sir, could you please keep moving? We got to keep traffic flowing here.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:39
But I don’t think they would have tried to pull me out of the car when I didn’t keep moving.

Andy 1:00:43
I had I had an interesting thought the other day, I was walking up to the bank and I was thinking about all of the video that has surfaced over these issues because everyone is running around with like a high definition camera in their pocket 24 hours a day. And I was thinking about, you know, there was this big scare in the 50s of UFOs and We don’t have the same corresponding photos of alien craft coming into our atmosphere with all the cameras. But all of a sudden, all these videos have surfaced of police overreach. And I was just sort of trying to draw the comparison that everyone has a camera. We should have found the photos by now, but we should have found a lot of cops doing bad things.

Larry 1:01:18
Yeah, I would think so if they were out there, we should have more more objects. And when they do have an object, it’s so so blurry that no one can figure out what it is. And then they think the government tells us it’s a weather balloon or it’s a shadow or something like that. Yep. All right. Where are we going now? I guess we can start going to the articles and we need to move through them pretty fast because we’ve got 15 minutes left.

Andy 1:01:42
All right and all right. So we will we will start and we are going to start with this first article is from courthouse news. Minnesota officials link arrested looters to white supremacist group. I kept hearing things like this Larry from different news outlets that the not just the protesters, but specifically the The ones that were creating the the massive amounts of unrest that they were from out of state, they might not have been part of black lives matter in those various groups. And they’re linking this to like white supremacist groups and other other organizations that are inciting kind of violent kind of activities.

Larry 1:02:19
Well, I am going to punt this one to our Minnesota to see what he knows about about these supremacist groups.

Andy 1:02:27
Christian, what do you got? You are a muted Christian. Christian has fallen asleep.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:33
Oh, all right. Well, I think that what I would say is that I have had that suspicion for a long time. people, when they when they judge these protests, the overwhelming 10s of thousands of them that are protesting across the country are doing nothing more than just walking peaceably. But as with any crisis, anything presents an opportunity for those who don’t have the best of intentions to blend in and It’s hard for you to know, if you’re walking with a group of 700 people, or 1000, or whatever it may case, you don’t know, all 700 or 1000, and you don’t know what their intentions are. So therefore, as you’re making your way towards your final destination where you’re going to make your stand, and hold your signs and chant, you don’t know what anyone’s gonna do until they do it. But it presents a beautiful opportunity for people who have sinister intentions. And I wish the law enforcement would say the same thing that they ask of themselves. Law enforcement, cops, please don’t judge the 10s and hundreds of thousands of people who have protested correctly, don’t paint them all with that same brush because a few instigators for whatever the reasons are, have tried to exploit this for their own agenda. What we do is we arrest those people in the last count on over 5000 people had been arrested across the country, but we deal with those 5000 and the other hundreds of thousands that have protested they shouldn’t be painted with that brush. I don’t know anything about display supremacy hope so hopefully Christian can tell us what they know of Minnesota. Christian.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:05
Sure, sure. So if you guys can hear me I was having some difficulties. We had the protesters, calm, peaceful, wanted to get the message across about law enforcement and then justice and the community. Then you have the unruly ones that caused havoc and burn and destruction and so forth. And at that point, they don’t have a justification to go that far. They didn’t have a reason at that. They just had an excuse to do what they wanted to do. There was a lot of spin in Minnesota, the governor said that 80% were out of state coming in from out of state from Fergus and Ferguson, I believe, and some other places to cause havoc, but it wasn’t the truth. It turns out that they were from Minnesota, they were a younger population. And so that’s just the case. So Both sides. The protesters abided by the curfew. They went inside. When it was time, the unruly ones didn’t. But as far as the white supremacy, Department of Corrections commissioner and the governor had said that there was reports of white supremacy, passing out literature and here to help increase the violence, that wasn’t actually confirmed. So but there was presence of an Tifa that were in Minnesota.

Andy 1:05:30
Let’s move over to an article from USA Today is federal prisons under national lockdown amid George Floyd protests, most severe restrictions in 25 years. I think this goes along with another article that will have a few about the Federal Bureau of Prisons taking their like Incident Response Team, you know, tech squad, whatever, and sending them into hotspots like Miami and DC. I think that’s actually another article coming up. So because those units aren’t available at the prison, well, God we gotta lock everybody down in the prison. We can’t have any movement? And so that’s not good. So they’ve already been locked down because of COVID. And now they’re being locked down because the police or the prison is redirecting resources.

Larry 1:06:10
Well, I, I would just like for, for the non people, the non president, people that are listening, there’s an audience out there that has never been incarcerated. When you hear the term block down, if you’re not been in a facility, tell people what that means in terms of a lockdown. Because the average person who hasn’t been in a jail, they think, well, they’re locked. Yeah, that’s the whole point. So what what does the lockdown mean in terms of your daily ritual,

Andy 1:06:36
depending on if you’re if you’re in a cell if you’re eating a one or two man cell, like I mean, you’re just stuck in your cell and maybe they’ll do limited movement to get you to the child to do food or they’ll just throw the open the door and throw up pack out like a little bag of like a peanut butter sandwich with some chips and a cup of kool aid in there like that. That could be the extreme of you’re just you’re just stuck in yourself. If you’re in an open what

Larry 1:07:02
I bet as opposed to a normal day you’d be doing a job right? You’d be out you’d be moving around if you’re you would have some some kind of duty for what you’re a porter or whether you’re what do you do the yards? Or what do you work in? As a barber? You’ve got some kind of duty to perform. So you’re you’re locked down in a very small, confined area 24 hours a day, roughly.

Andy 1:07:22
Yeah. And even when they start doing that stuff, well, then then there’s no yard so those people don’t go to work. And maybe they’ll do haircuts. I mean, obviously, people are still going to go to do food. But the library would be shut down. I mean, anything outside of essential services, hey, like, Well, we know about essential surfaces. Now. You wouldn’t necessarily have had a frame of reference of what would be considered essential prior to two months ago. But then even still, if you’re in like an open dorm, like what are you supposed to do? Like they would lock you down and say you just can sit on your bed. You can’t move around to other people’s beds and hang out and talk or you know, do whatever you would do play cards, like you’re just stuck at your bunk. For days, weeks,

Larry 1:08:01
and what is a lock down to to the tension level and our facility in terms of when when that type of confinement no movement does what what would what would be the result of of the would the prison population be easier to manage or more difficult to manage in that environment?

Andy 1:08:17
I think that would actually be answered that would be both Larry because if you don’t have people moving, there’s not much to manage. But you do have a powder keg inside the inside the unit, people were going to get pissed off, they’re gonna you know, they’re not outside, they’re not getting any sun. They’re not getting releasing any energy anywhere, like, you know, playing basketball or something like that. So you get like, tension level can go through the roof. And as soon as someone says, Hey, man, what’s up now, like, Oh, you’ve now said something that offends me. So then then shit just breaks out and things get ugly. Well, that was the point I was making it

Larry 1:08:50
that way. And if we need to, we need to return prisons to as much normal operation as we can as quickly as we can if we don’t want to have violence because that’s where this is going to lead to If we don’t, and I’m not trying to do scare tactics like we just heard, this is just the reality of what happens in presence. The reason why we learned decades ago, what we’ve learned about prison management is that we have to have something that consumes the energy and the attention of inmates if they have nothing but boredom, the outcomes are gonna be good after a prolonged period of time. So we need we need the prisons to be returned to normal operations as quickly as they can.

Andy 1:09:32
Very good. And then from why why police reforms in Pennsylvania languished after Antwan roses killing will now be will now be any different. I think this is another roughly similar says in June 2018, a police officer shot and killed Antoine rose the second and unarmed black teenager in a small borough outside of Pittsburgh. Oh, this is what I was referred to a couple articles ago about where roses death led to an emotional Protests the arrest of the officer and a package of police reform bills introduced by Democrats legislation that went nowhere in the republican controlled state legislature. I brought that up a handful of articles go about change, trying to be introduced but then being stymied.

Larry 1:10:15
Yeah, so this is the place where would fit in a nice clip the importance of voting. This is the response to people who who have watched the reform efforts based on bid in Pennsylvania. If you don’t like it, listen to this.

Unknown Speaker 1:10:31
That’s still not enough. Even charging them. There has to be policing changed. Why is that so hard? How many more examples Do y’all need? What chief doesn’t want to change a system that you clearly see is broken. And if a politician doesn’t want to, then fine, it is just time to start voting people out of office. African Americans don’t typically turn out in the mass that they could. Well now you’ve awoken you want to see what a boat can do now stand up against trying to change

Andy 1:10:59
so That Larry’s like, I recall. So the Colin Kaepernick kneeling for the national anthem and whatnot from last NFL season. I’m sure you I know you’re not a sports fan, either my but I’m sure you heard about it. Sure. And the NFL came out and severely condemned the President was running around saying that these sob s and whatnot. And just today yesterday, the NFL has come out and said, we were wrong. And we’re not going to sanction anybody that that wants to kneel for the flag and all this stuff. And I and I remember people in my area, they were like, I’m not watching the NFL until they get you know, until they they squelch to this, this protest. And I was like, holy crap, you guys are crazy. These people like are getting beat up and killed by police. So somebody takes a knee on the field and you’re gonna boycott watching the NFL. I thought it was wrong. I was I thought it was ridiculous that they would take the stance, let alone not agree with the stance.

Larry 1:11:57
Well, I never understood the whole thing it kickers always thought kneeling. I thought that was an act of reverence I never understood. I truly didn’t understand it. Because I never thought that that was a when you nail it church you’re not being disrespectful to God Almighty are you? So I thought kneeling was I thought kneeling was a good thing to do.

Andy 1:12:16
And and I and I can guarantee you now we’re going to get hate mail. But my understanding is Colin kapernick actually, like, counseled with a navy seal to say, what would be the most respectful thing that I could do to do this, and this is what he was recommended to do was to kneel. Yeah, you’re right. I mean, like, you know, you kneel when you go into church and do various things like that, like, Neil, like, you know, before you kiss the ring of the Pope, I’m sure.

Larry 1:12:40
I’ve never understood that. But But beyond that, beyond that silly part of it, this whole country is founded upon the freedom of expression. Now, you are on the job. You are on employers time, and you have somewhat less right to express yourself on the company time. So therein lies the problem I do recognize when you try when you’re working at your regular job, try telling your employer that you have unlimited freedom of expression and see what happens. So, so I do but I just didn’t see that as being all that disrespectful and i i i didn’t understand the controversy it went over my head.

Andy 1:13:21
I get it. Christian you just jump in here if there’s anything that you want to say because we’re gonna we’re gonna bounce through these things really quick but if there’s anything that you want to

Unknown Speaker 1:13:30
know no and I’m glad you talked about that i i just share one of my favorite quarterbacks is Drew Brees, New Orleans Saints love them to death. And, you know, he made a comment that he didn’t believe you should know the national anthem and the NFL commissioner came back and popped off and we know how power and political this can get. And then immediately he backed off his story and it was kind of ashamed that he didn’t keep his platform and his views and change that. I don’t know why. Guess if you’re going to have that key. your views and keep them and regardless of the backlash

Andy 1:14:05
over at corrections one calm never heard of this one oh this. This brings it up says Attorney General bar since BLP Riot team to DC and Miami CBP is the Bureau of Prisons, the move to send the bps Special Operations response teams comes as violence continues across the country. I still can’t fathom how this and then like I don’t think we have anything that covers this went. Larry, did you read that he signed the order for the police in DC to clear the path for the president?

Larry 1:14:34
I’m not clear on that for sure. But it it was it was a strange reaction to what I thought was a peaceful demonstration to use to flash grenades and what all they did clear out the demonstrators.

Andy 1:14:52
It was also I mean like that, so when they did that they assaulted they manhandled some Forgive me for using like a very sexist kind of term. But they they pushed around some reporters from other countries. And I didn’t really think of the political impact of this. But our allies like, I think there was a German maybe it was an Australian news group that got kind of pushed around and like that creates some pretty significant political tensions. When you run around and you push their news reporters, you know, first amendment freedom of speech, freedom of the press, like that kind of thing. Don’t we espouse to have that be one of our mantras? Well,

Larry 1:15:30
yes. Beyond that, we need to remember how we feel when when this happens to an American journalist.

Andy 1:15:36
Yeah, but should we would be a little po about that one,

Larry 1:15:38
and that sometimes we struggle with what, what, how, how we react differently, when an example would be when an American is being held captive, arrested without due process or what we would consider due process. The president or the State Department. You should not depress that directly, though. Occasionally it is but usually the State Department context nation at asked for intervention and they go to the upper levels of the government. When that happens in the reverse. What happens here in the United States when you when you contact the State Department, or if you had the President’s number and it’s not singled out for Trump, it would be any president. The President always defers and says, well, it’s a state matter, you know, to Texas, I mean, to have a death penalty in Texas on its state law, there’s nothing I can do. I can’t commit to a sentence. But we get very angry if the leaders of other countries are not able to intervene to our satisfaction. We have a lot of struggle with with with reversing something and looking at it through the eyes of the foreign nation.

Andy 1:16:43
I let’s see here. So then we have a couple articles kind of sent around a similar theme officers charts and George Floyd’s death, not likely to present a united front. This is from the New York Times that I think it is pretty typical in our past that there’s I think it’s called the blue wall where you can’t get any information to officers, they lock arms together and they they present a united front of supporting their own and I think one of the officers in this thing is already like trying to, to cut a deal and sell out his co workers there. And all that this a Larry, these guys are gonna get convicted?

Larry 1:17:21
Well, they’re the best yet to be determined.

Andy 1:17:24
I will I will bet you money right here like you’ve had money invested for the last 350 years. So you got a truckload of money in the bank. I will bet you one penny that these guys get convicted.

Larry 1:17:36
When you say these guys, are you talking about the children? Are you talking about?

Andy 1:17:40
Yes, yes, him and his little is to go ahead.

Unknown Speaker 1:17:44
Christian. I do. I do agree with you, Andy. I do agree with Andy and I think it’s gonna be very difficult. And Larry, you may agree with this too. How are you going to have a fair trial on the state of Minnesota especially in the cities when probably a majority of the people People have came out and expressed concern about the police force. I don’t know how he’s going to get a fair trial. And this whole matter, I don’t so I think he will be convicted or whether he please and cuts it down as a shorter sentence.

Larry 1:18:15
It would be it would be hard to offer Sovan any type of plea now you can offer these other four man a plea because they were not the the primary responsibility doesn’t lie with them. They were he was their training officer. According to the article, at least two of them were in training. And and he had seniority over over all of them. But it says he was a 19 year veteran. But I think a fair trial is going to be a very difficult thing to do and he’s entitled to that we have to want him. We have to be as adamant about him having a fair trial as we are about anybody. We do not want this to be overturned on appeal because of not being a fair trial. We want him to get the process that all of us would expect. They sent $750,000 bond on these four officers. And this will probably get me some hate mail. But I think that bond is over the top. I don’t know if they’re going to be able to post it, if they have posted it, those four, but that is an excess of about a bond for people who do not pose any reasonable flight risk. The purpose of a bond for a cash bond is to have a sufficient incentive for the person to participate. And a sufficient incentive would be far less than 750,000. And they didn’t, they didn’t commit a violent crime, they witnessed a violent crime and it’s questionable what they could have done to prevent that. That’s all to be sorted. But but i think that i think that is an excessive amount to require. And they should be able to have a reasonable bail, just like we would want if we were charged with a crime, right?

Andy 1:19:54
We would definitely want that. So then another article from the New York Times, this one is just dated A handful of days ago says another man who said I can’t breathe died in custody and autopsy constant homicide says Manuel Ellis of Tacoma Washington died in part as a result of how he was restrained. According to the medical examiner who concluded that his death was a homicide. I suspect that this is going to be the continuing trend that the choke holds the Eric gardeners the random deaths while you’re riding in a police van from point A to point B with you know, with like, I think he had a broken back I think that’s what the Baltimore one was like, this stuff is all going to be put under the light Larry, like I It is my opinion that this has definitely hit a tipping point that this is not gonna continue to happen. Well, Teresa says that’s pretty great.

Larry 1:20:42
The the Minneapolis has already taken Christian can chime in here but they’ve already they’ve already taken some steps in terms of requiring that these holes stop being used and that people doing this be reporting that but I don’t understand. I’d say about 30 years ago I may be able to my ears but The animal control for our city they used to use that for cats, they would they had these, I don’t know that what they were called. But these, when they were catching Australia, they would reach the head, the noose around. And then if you’re catching a feral cat, the feral cats not gonna be the least bit cooperate, they would pick those cats up by the neck. And that cat would eventually go out because of no oxygen. And that’s how they were able to put the frail cat in the cage to take them to animal control. And we were able to decide 25 to 30 years ago, that you can’t do that because it harms the cat and cats died. And cats were Okay, so 30 years later, we’re having this discussion about not choking human beings to death. Am I missing something?

Andy 1:21:52
I do not believe so. In the interest of time, and I want to cover one or If if you’re okay with us, skipping to the end of the roster, and it’s this one movement to defund police gains unprecedented support across the US. And I heard this on some other publications where I want to say it’s in Los Angeles, that they Yeah, it’s the police budget is $1.8 billion. And instead of them getting a 7% increase, there’s going to be a small decrease in their budget. And this seems to be a trend, something that you have said on the podcast before of like, we have a militarized police department and we should be the ones that restrained their tools and stop giving them so much money to do all these things. And I just wanted to get your feedback on this.

Unknown Speaker 1:22:40
Well, it’s the only tool we have and when the public realizes that for and I’ll make the analogy with attorney general office, the Attorney General, each state has an attorney general. One thing that we learned is advocates and this movement. SAP Attorney General of the Michigan you pick your state, Arkansas They appeal everything. You remember we talked about rebars. it? Was it last week, the week before? It was they have announced exactly I predicted they would appeal they have to appeal and they are appealing the decision. Well, if we don’t want them appealing everything, which is what they do, and fighting everything to so Dale, since there’s no one in any office in anywhere in the state of North Carolina that can order the Attorney General to do anything. The only tool that the legislature of North Carolina has and the people have indirectly through their legislators is to cut the funding. So if they have an office of 500, and they have the resources to appeal everything, one way you would stop them from being able to appeal everything would be to reduce the number of people they have, which would cause them to have to choose on appealing everything. Well, the same thing goes with the police. We’re not talking about totally different The police, no one is talking about that. What we’re talking about is that over the last 25 years as crime has declined, the police have enjoyed a steadily increasing budget, when actually budgets should have been going down to represent the need for fewer of them because there weren’t as many things to investigate. The only tool we have is to say, if you don’t like the fact that police I mean, I mean, it those of us have been advocates for a number of years, we’ve heard about all these ridiculous cases that they’ve brought, you know, we’ve talked about on the podcast of cases that you couldn’t imagine that they have time to do that they bring these cases. And they break these cases because they have the resources to do so. Since you can’t give a sheriff an order not to do something. The only thing you can do is they will share if you’ve got resources to bring all these dubious cases, we’re going to curtail your actions. tivities by having fewer funds available, well, the sheriff isn’t going to like that. So what they’re going to do is exactly what the counselor in Minnesota did. They’re going to retaliate by saying, okay, we’re going to back off on things you want enforced, or we’re going to come down hard on other things, to teach the public a lesson. And that’s what they’re going to do. They know, they know no other playbook. That’s all they can do. We’re gonna, we’re gonna have to stand firm. And we’re gonna have to say, Sorry, folks, we’re in a budget crisis, revenues are down, you’re going to have to tighten your belt and you’re gonna have to deal with lists. This is a this pandemic is a perfect opportunity to do something you could never do in regular circumstances. You could never talk about actually cutting the police department’s budget. Prior to this pandemic, you could talk about possibly giving them a slower increase like Councillor Fletcher was talking about, but now we can actually have a discussion because I get to look you as a taxpayer say, Well, our revenues are down 30% because of the pandemic Would you like to have Have a tax increase so that we can get the revenue flow back up to where it was so that we don’t have to cut anything. Of course you know what the answer that is nobody wants to tax increase. Okay, so Okay, now, since the police make up 50% of the budget now this is true across the country, not just in Minneapolis, since law enforcement gets the lion’s share of local funding. How could we cut 30% of the city or County’s budget? If we have to take 50% of it out of the equation? What with 30%? of 50% you mathematician stick it out? If I had if I had to cut spending 30%. And I could only look at 50% to cut the 30% what would the cut be to the remaining programs?

Unknown Speaker 1:26:37
It would be a lot I want to say it’s like an 80% range.

Larry 1:26:40
So so that’s that’s what that’s what we’re up against here. And I’ve been gone so long, Kristen. What what what is what is your take? We’ve lost him again. Larry, can you repeat that? I said what is your take? I didn’t mean to go on so long. So what’s your take about the No, no, no, I

Unknown Speaker 1:26:57
think that you have a good point and

Unknown Speaker 1:27:01
It’s a lot of a lot of things that are just going through my mind right now with this with what you said and I’m, I had to work so well with the state I had to do some traffic control and roadblocks during this time and it was brutal watching some of this whole so I kind of I kind of wanted to just stay back whether anything was politically motivated or if race was an issue and you know, so forth. But yeah,

Andy 1:27:33
sir, anything else that we want to hit before we get out of here?

Larry 1:27:36
Christians any of the articles there that we didn’t cover that you wanted to cover? I know we’ve got the warrant. I wanted to say something about debris. Briana Taylor, that the the danger of doing what they did come to find out is more and more facts are not about that no knock warrant. Is that they the police chief likely lost His job he was going to retire but they would had fired him.

Unknown Speaker 1:28:03
But but the there was no particularized nothing in the application for no more was particularized to this particular person. They said in their application, that that drugs that people who wrote drugs are notorious able to dispose of them prior to the search, but the person they were looking for the gloves. He didn’t even live there. He had received a package according to the Postal Inspector, that but but then there was a question of the Postal Inspectors if we didn’t say that point I’m making is that if you pound on somebody’s door late at night, and her boyfriend had a permit to carry a weapon, and you don’t announce yourself as the police, what do you think is going to happen? When you think someone’s breaking in your house? That’s the whole reason why we’re so irritated at Cobb County. If you’re going to knock at people’s doors late at night, pounding with the police knock If you don’t say police force, I would not want them same place at 1130 at night. But it’s only a recipe for bad things to happen. You can’t do that, folks, this woman died because the police were lazy. They use boilerplate language. The courts were lazy, they didn’t review the warrant carefully the application, a judge, a good judge would have said I just read this. There’s nothing particular about this, about this, where you’ve said there’s any reason that you have particular to this suspect that would allow me to grant this no warrant denied. But see, if you do that, if you’re in a state where the police have the power to go out and campaign against you, in the states where you have to run this for a judge, what would happen if you did that, on a routine basis to the police, you would all of a sudden find your judicial career coming to an end because you you’re denying the police the opportunity to do their job, and you’re you’re siding with the criminals. So that’s why judges are hesitant to say no to the police, particularly if they have to face the wrath of angry voters.

Andy 1:29:59
Let’s Christian, is there anything that you want to hit before we

Unknown Speaker 1:30:02
do? I want to say two things really quick on this one. I wish they had a lot more but we’ll see on that 77 year old retired police officer in St. Louis that got beat up by the thugs that that should had more publicity and to about five, six years ago, among family, Minneapolis police executed a warrant wrong house at among very little English did shoot one of the officers as it was coming in. He was he wasn’t charged. The Hennepin County prosecution our prosecutors decided not to charge them so more to share that.

Larry 1:30:39
When you say the seven seven to retarget beat about the thugs what thugs

Unknown Speaker 1:30:44
this was a police officer Larry 77 to 38 years in the St. Louis department Missouri. Volunteering and during this writing he two thugs did beat them up and kill them. made very, very little news and I was really shocked about that.

Unknown Speaker 1:31:02
Well, but aren’t the thugs being prosecuted? Have they not apprehended? I haven’t heard the story. But what?

Unknown Speaker 1:31:07
Yes, Yes, they did. They did. Random. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:31:10
But see, but see, that’s the whole that’s the whole point. people miss. The reason why you don’t hear a lot about something like that, and it’s tragic and it’s unfortunate, but they had been brought to justice, they are facing criminal charges. What we’re angry about with these things is the police never get brought before the courts and when they do, they’re found not guilty. There’s no accountability. Those people will be held accountable and and hopefully if they have innocence there, they’ll be convicted. But but it’s it’s in the case of police misconduct. You can barely get a prosecutor to bring a case because they know what the what’s going to be the outcome they know that that they’re not likely to gain a conviction. They know that they’re going to have the whole Police Department turn on them and they know all the retaliate ation they’re facing our district attorney here in bernalillo. County when she charged the the cops in the death of the one cop in the death of James Boyd. She said said that she felt threatened for her life that isn’t that. Isn’t that a sad thing when you when you’re the when you’re the prosecutor or you feel threatened by the police, she said that she felt for her safety. she feared for her safety.

Andy 1:32:13
Christian thing for Coco Please go ahead.

Unknown Speaker 1:32:16
Oh, no, no, I was I was going to agree with Larry. Absolutely. And I’ll continue. I’m sorry. I just wanted to say I agree with Larry. So

Andy 1:32:25
thank you so much for joining us and I wanted to give you an opportunity to to plug Minnesota for how can they find it? How can they reach out to you because I’m sure the seven people that live in Minnesota that I’m sure all of them listen to the podcast.

Unknown Speaker 1:32:37
Well, hey, it may have shrunk here recently. So as I said before I tracked down Brenda Brenda has been wonderful and I kind of miss Brenda. She was supposed to come in in April was supposed to do a

Unknown Speaker 1:32:53
Brenda What was it called the

Unknown Speaker 1:32:57
old Cashman you’re gonna have to help me here. What was his name? She’s gonna go finish. She’s probably not but what it is guys is Minnesota for its mn fo r Gnar. Saw a yahoo.com. So again min. For M and fo r.na. saw your yahoo.com Excuse me? Yeah. Okay.

Larry 1:33:18
before we sign off, I want to make one correction when we got the email about the one that I pontificate about earlier, about about only because it’s black people as I was listening to something I said, I misspoke when I was talking about the 11th circuit, the Florida, Florida appealing the the judge’s decision on the voting. And I said that judges on the 11th circuit were appointed, that there was judges that the scientists had had pointed to the Florida court. We’re now on the 11th circuit appointed by Obama. I did not mean to say that. I was I was in my mind thinking Trump But as I listen to my words, I said Obama. So that was not what I intended to say.

Andy 1:34:06
All right, then. So Larry, we have to mark this day that you were wrong once?

Larry 1:34:09
Well, it probably don’t tell how many times I misspeak I just don’t hear about I don’t generally go back and listen to the podcast because it’s bad enough. I had to do it once. But I was making sure that I was in context, because we got some, some feedback that we were that we knew was taken out of context. And so I was going back to listening to make sure that I hadn’t had misspoken. And and the context the person was concerned about was just just that it was not the context of what we’re talking about it I don’t think we want to go into it into the broadcast, but it was taken out of context.

Andy 1:34:42
Oh, right. And then also, Brenda, Larry, you can attest to this one that there is a pretty significant webcast that NARSOL is putting on this coming weekend. And she wanted me to remind everyone, you’ll get this. Everyone will get this by Tuesday. So to remind you that NARSOL is having their annual conference, it’s being done remotely. And if you head over to nassau.org, you can find links on the page to sign up. It is not expensive, it’s 35 bucks, it’s over a couple days with pretty much all of the main speakers that we’re going to be there originally anyway. And I’ll have a link in the show notes that will get you right there, but just head over to nassau.org Nar sll.org and you can find out how to register for the program. Later, we can skip all the extra stuff, everyone knows where to go go to registry matters.co. And you can find all the show notes and links and phone numbers, all that stuff. And they they

Larry 1:35:33
they are so live webcast is going to be fantastic. And I totally underestimated the interest in it. We have a record number of 200 signed up already with a way to go. And I predicted that it would surprise me if we surpassed 100. When we were talking about this internally I said what the psyche of the nation be what it is and so many distractions will be Like if we have 100 people show up. Well, you know what, we’ve doubled that and we still have a week to go.

Andy 1:36:04
Excellent. Well, that’s all I got. Again, Christian, thank you for joining, Larry. Thank you. And hopefully you’ll make it to your appointment on time.

Larry 1:36:12
I think I will. And with that, I’ll go I’m wondering, I’m wondering if we should do it because we’re trying to have a little structure in our after podcast banter, and I’m not going to be able to do one today but I’d be willing to pop in tomorrow afternoon because I’m going to come to the office but we could do a little banter for folks who want to either ask a question or make a comment. But tonight unfortunately I do have to bolt out here students we sign off

Andy 1:36:36
well very good. Well, we’ll try and skip in the future. So so

Unknown Speaker 1:36:40
alright guys. Sure you guys appreciate you having me on and Larry’s

Unknown Speaker 1:36:45
see how to your fiance for me. So

Andy 1:36:50
good night everybody. Thank you for thanks, everybody in chat and thank you for keeping the company and keeping it interesting. And with that, I bid everybody I do have a great night. Sure.